Premier League football has become more of a commercial product since Sky appeared, and maybe this is part of the appeal for USA ownership, which appears to be done pretty well.

I feel very "British" in my ways, and I suspect many fans feel strongly about identity, and history... but perhaps this thought is for another thread another time... Sheffield to win 2-1.

Twice I've been on the receiving end of a good thumping by Mackem hooligans (once at Roker Park and the other at Goodison) but I somehow have a soft spot for them.

If they don't come up, I hope we go for Bellingham and Rigg. Two excellent prospects by all accounts.

And by the way – that “Scouse Mackem” jibe – do the Skunks not know that Sunderland have won more league titles than them?

Be great if Sunderland do win, and Pickford has an absolute blinder tomorrow and keeps a clean sheet. That will really wind the Skunk Maggots up no end!!

The are more discerning than the Geordies, a bit like Everton fans — we know when we have a poor squad and don't pretend otherwise, while the Newcastle fans would follow eleven monkeys as long as they played in black and white shirts.

Nothing against Sheffield Utd fans or club either, they were also in the First Division when I was younger so I hope it is a good game and may the best team win — as we used to say in our old-fashioned way!

Their experiences of getting beat every week in the Premier League has disillusioned them.

I have a few close friends who are Sunderland supporters. They've always reminded me of us in some ways.

I also have a couple of mates who are Blades supporters. Years ago, we went to a pre-season Sheffield United v Everton friendly that was arranged to mark the opening of their new stand when Howard Kendall had just re-joined us for the 3rd time, leaving Sheffield United for his true football love. I was sat amongst the Sheffield supporters and it was all good natured.

To echo your comment, I hope the best team on the day wins. On my morning run to the supermarket at 8 am after walking the dog, there were a lot of Sunderland supporters carrying 24-packs of lager out of Sainbury's. Good luck to them. it's going to be a long day!!

This campaign aims to inspire supporters to learn CPR, equipping them with vital skills that could save someone's life.

I have no interest in watching Sheffield Utd. Sunderland appear to be a much less annoying version of your Northeast folk when compared to Newcastle fans.

I watched 2 seasons of, Sunderland till I die, and they are real, proper fans that lot.

Oh... TalkSport. Yuek.

Davies's time at Blades has been a catastrophe. Three major injuries and some mental health issues as well.

Didn't realize he's Kevin Campbell's son.

Whatever has gone wrong, he might not be top drawer, but only 26, he is a talented footballer with a career ahead of him. I hope he sorts it out.

An Evertonian and his uncle, Alan Whittle played over 70 games for Everton. There is really nice footage of him sat on the roof of the boxes below the Main Stand talking to supporters after the Crystal Palace match.

If you read ToffeeWeb, Tom, best wishes and all the best.

Too short, weak and slow.

Boo, but wow.

I met him years ago. He couldn't have been a nicer young man. And he scored 32 seconds into my first game at Goodison.

But I always considered him a mediocre player with a penchant for crucial mistakes.

He didn't impede him. Keeper saw it all the way.

Terrible call.

Absolute shite this VAR crap.

That has to be what motivated that call.

I swear to God above English football gets VAR so wrong so often. It's shocking.

He's about the same height as Ndiaye and taller than Leon Osman, who used to have similar accusations thrown at him. Messi was only 5ft-7in. You don't have to be big or fast. Strong - yes.

But I know what you mean. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have it in his locker to make it at the top. I wonder if it would have been different in a different Everton environment. We'll never know.

He didn't even impede a move to the keeper's left when the shot was taken?

I dunno m'man...

Sheer ability and awareness makes up for physicality. Sadly, Tom was lacking in that dept.

The offside rules are more liberal now and there's VAR, but that was my gut reaction.

I knew he had major injuries, sad to hear he had mental issues. It was nice to see him out on the pitch last Sunday at Goodison, still a Blue at heart.

But you can see the balance and football brain is there to be a top player.

I remember seeing a young Gascoigne play at Goodison and thinking 'My God, Everton need to sign that lad, quick before anyone else spots him'.

But the managers all know all the players from years earlier. Wasn't Sir Alex sniffing around Joe Cole when he was 10 or something ridiculous?

I'd swap him for Beto without hesitation.

Maybe we should look at this Tom Cannon fella. He's got 10.

I'm shocked he only bagged 6.

I'll defer to Gaynes and Glassar on Señor Moore.

Moore is 33 in August.

But he did just let a perfect pass roll under his foot.

Clearly I've gotten this one wrong.

He has a physical presence, but falls short too much for me.

Never seen that before.

Pure quality on that finish.

Is that six more times than Newcastle?

Hopefully our 6-year-old selves will do next season.

However, their last one was 98 years ago. 😂😂😂

Tom Cannon and Tom Davies.

I didn't know that, Rob.

Young Maurice became very disillusioned with losing heavily most weeks in the Premier League.

Haha – great goal

He will live with that for life.

No. I believe I retracted that after a comment from Mike and Colin!

Now it's a hard, hard no.

Even if they didn't want to go up, that's shattering.

Slap some lipstick on this pig, m'man!

Well in, Sunderland.

Congrats to them.

Can they stay there?

He will be laughing at those Skunk Maggots! 😂😂😂

As will we.

Boy, do we!

The vultures, including us, will be circling tomorrow.

I was hoping Sheffield Utd would do it, and we could pick some bargains.

But I think they’ll struggle next season.

The gulf is getting wider all the time.

They could do a Forest and service season one. But they could do an Ipswich, Leicester or Southampton and go straight back down.

You are right. The gulf is widening. It's why Man Utd, Tottenham and ourselves were secure this season.

After the Red Shite, I detest Leeds because they have the worst fans. I remember when they were last in the Premier :League, against Arsenal, their centre-back went straight through I think it was Martinelli.

Right in front of the Leeds fans, a straight red, and they gave him a standing ovation, horrible.

So, at least in cup competitions, it's been the year of the underdog.

I think Dyche would have kept at least 2 of this season's Bottom 3 up.

However, daft as it sounds, I think some of these clubs are not too fussed if they get relegated. This many not be true but I did hear that Burnley are the most profitable team in English football. This is because of the huge parachute payments when relegated.

As long as they get promoted every few seasons, they will remain in very good financial shape (unlike us where relegation could have finished us off).

Burnley, therefore, will continue to entertain, develop young talented players etc and ship too many goals. Sunderland may do the same. But I expect Leeds to tighten things up in order to stay up. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they have hired Dyche by Christmas in order to do just that.

Sheffield Utd finished 14 points in front of Sunderland, they must feel robbed.

So why don't they make the Premier League Bottom 2 get relegated and the 17th & 18th have to play off — the winner stays up?

That's no more stupid than these play-offs. Yeah, it's about the money and prolongs the interest and all that, but it does not seem like justice.

I think one of the unlikely top clubs will go down. Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford or, at a big price, Brighton. If all of them survive, I will eat my hat!!

If I recall correctly, a few years back, QPR got promoted. The owner boldy declared they would be challenging for Champions League.

Forest, Brighton, Bournemouth and Brentford have demonstrated that, if you get a foothold, you can build on it.

Relegation isn't the be-all and end-all. Fortunately we have managed to escape it through hook or crook on several occasions.

Other notable big clubs have suffered that fate but came back from the ashes in my lifetime: Aston Villa, Newcastle Utd, Leeds Utd, Manchester City and Manchester Utd.

Pleased for Sunderland. Gutted for Sheffield Utd, who must feel aggrieved being the 3rd placed team in the Champiomnship by far.

Burnley received 55% parachute payment for being relegated the first year, but they won't get the remaining 45% because they're back up now, the Premier League keep it.

The promotion and relegation arrangements between the Championship and Premier League are obsolete. The gulf is now too great.

I'll be jumping on the three promoted teams to go straight back to where they came from as soon as the bookies open the book.

Peter M: I won't ask about the in-laws mate.

Surely its even money at best?

Having said that Leeds will stay up, you look at 17th up and you can make a case for each one of them staying up.

But ain't gonna happen.

Slightly better than even's then.

Fulham 5/1.

Seems like the bookies suspect something about Marco Silva.

Brighton is quite a nice place to visit though Rob, especially if you book a hotel for the night mate.

I'ld fecking love to see Palace's poxy plazzy ultras go down. Seen the plans rebuilding Selhurst?

https://www.coliseum-online.com/builder-picked-for-selhurst-park-revamp/

So where is the value? Certainly not in backing the promoted clubs at 11/8.

It's Bournemouth's time and, Paul, if that 8/1 is on offer, fill your boots!

But it hurts us, because Neil would have been a useful signing.

Klipperty gums is available apparently.

I think Bournemouth may do but not the other 2, not yet anyway.

Love to see Blackburn, Preston and West Brom get promoted next season but that's not going to happen either. Will Wrexham give it a decent go?

Mug's odds for that bet.

But West Brom. Yuck. Inverted skunks. Never liked them. My first FA Cup Final was 1968.

The bookies have clearly noticed the recent trend because they have shut the door on it.

8/11 + 2/5 + 4/11 works out roughly at 5/2 for all three promoted clubs to go straight back down. Stingy odds when you think the same bet paid 9/2 last season and 6/1 the season before

Replace West Brom with Stoke, Derby or Wrexham but can’t see any of those coming up either. Maybe Burnley will come back up for a real Hovis feel.

Say, for example Everton to win 3/1 and Beto to score first, might be 20/1 and 5/1 but you ain't getting 100/1 if you want to bet on that.

I don't know much about much, but betting I do know, from a lifetime as a better and a layer.

8/11 + 2/5 + 4/11 = 5/2

Those are individual odds. Doesn't work like that when you are betting on multiple teams to go down.

Maybe you have a very friendly bookie?

Made the same point not sure it' s a good thing we know it.

Points to stay up have been 34, 28, 35, 34, 26, 25 (unless Leicester win at Bournemouth).

In the last 2 seasons all promoted teams went down. In the 5 years before that, one promoted club was the surprise package and got well over 40 points and would have been challenging for Europe. So if one of them makes it, then it will be a surprise given the current gap.

You are comparing apples to oranges

Naming a player to score first in a match when you are betting on his team to win. IS contingency linked. one can have a direct baring on the other.

Backing three teams to go down is a different kettle of fish. If Leeds go down it neither saves nor condemns Burnley. Its like any other treble. All three need to be relegated or your bet is a losing one.

You say no bookie in the world would give me a treble at those odds but I've only submitted one request-a-bet to one bookie (sky) and I was offered 5/2. I have decided against it because I think it is very stingy.

I would love to know where you got you 11/8 from For naming 3 teams to go down ???

Those odds are not just for mugs. They are for the numerically challenged and would not entice a single bet from anywhere.

'Contingent' is obviously a difficult one to grasp though.

Where did you see "Evens at best" (post 109)?

"Slightly better than evens then" (post 113)?

And 11/8 (post 119)?

Which three bookies did you get these odds from?

I think you are the one struggling to grasp contingent. It's got you chasing yourself up your own arse...

Deafening applause all round? No!

Not if you've got the slightest grasp of modern-day allegedly competitive football.

Next season will obviously again feature three leagues in one in the money-spewing Premier League. You'd have to be thick not to notice.

As a Toffee I was thrilled to see the likes of Ipswich, QPR, Huddersfield, Forest, Leicester and other now "non-entity" clubs (according to the organised media/"governance" circus now engulfing us) win, challenge and entertain near the top.

Cue Mary Hopkin's most famous song folks. I really don't expect to see anything resembling "a level playing-field" again.

What's with the hissy fit?

We're talking bookies' odds...

Us, Marine, Celtic, Queen of the South, Athletic Bilbao, Sekondi Hasaacas FC (used to live in Takoradi, Ghana), and big soft spots for Cambridge and Norwich.

"Those were the days.. my friend"

Now there's a song for a new stadium.

(I counted out each one of those "nas" - x34)

How about this — the players might like it:

Eddie & the Hot Rods — Do Anything You Wanna Do

The odds I was offered where in a betting shop and are truly pathetic. Betting shop odds always are for the mugs. (I bet in a shop every Saturday!)

I think 5/2 isn't too bad actually. Anything over 3/1 and I'll be tempted to cast my doubts on Leeds aside...

Genuine request: If you find odds to your liking let me know

I was reading this thread yesterday and it was the polar opposite views of two of our American friends who have both been referees, I think, that intrigued me.

Mike said his flag would have been up for offside in the old days. (That didn't make sense to me “in the old days”, Mike, because once the ball is in the net, I thought you were still supposed to put your flag up, if you think it's offside?)

Jamie said the league wants a competitive game, not 0-2 at half time, and then went on to say he's off to the left of the keeper's sight, circling back to an onside position and he wasn't even in front of the keeper, and he didn't impede a move to the keeper's left when the shot was taken.

It's all about opinions indeed, Jamie, and mine was (after just watching the highlights) that if the keeper was unsighted, it was because of the players in front of him who were either his own defenders or attackers who were onside.

VAR can sometimes be correct but, at other times, it's just making very subjective decisions that could go either way and this means that it's polluting football and making it a lot less natural to view.

The richest game in the world was turned by a very, very, very contentious decision.

Bournemouth is an interesting shout. I'm sure Iraola will be tempted by a bigger club (us please) and some of his better players could follow him.

I'll go with:

West Ham
Burnley
Sunderland

To drop.

Betting shop punting and online punting are almost two different industries these days. It's a wider audience online and you are almost guaranteed to be offered eye catching "price boosts".

You clearly don't need me to tell you about the pitfalls and snares hidden beneath.

Brendan,

I am guilty of the occasional hissy fits if I feel somebody is trying to misrepresent me, but 99.9% of the stuff I put on here is done tongue firmly in cheek. I like the craic. The Banter.

My comment about you chasing yourself up your own arse was a poorly executed attempt at humour. Apologies for the way it came out. I was trying to take the Micky. Not offend.