Tarkowski-Keane partnership not working

Unfortunately, until Branthwaite comes back and actually proves that his injury is gone for good, we are stuck with limited options... But under no more circumstances especially at home, should Jake O'Brien be deployed at right-back.

Tarkowski has been solid for us but this season he is resembling more and more to me the last two or three years of Dave Watson's Everton career. You can just see everything is slowing down -- speed of timing, movement, judgement.

Really next season Tarkowski should only be a backup, and along with Keane, that's if he's here.

If this club really wants to be serious and challenge at the top end of the table and for trophies again, then we need better players in that defence

The fullbacks do my head too; that's an argument that's been thrashed out many a time because we are still stuck in the mud.

That was down to the recruitment team. Is Moyes part of that team? Fans give him the credit for the signing Dewsbury-Hall and Grealish but say he wasn't responsible for the other newcomers last summer. Whether Grealish was a great signing or not is up for debate anyway.

I think it is right for our fans to complain about the non-signing of a right-back over the last couple of years, and I'd throw a left-back in as well.

I'm grateful for the 28 points gathered already but I'm not sure how many more it will increase by at the end of the season.

The owners have bought Everton at a very cheap rate so I hope they will strengthen the squad when they able to, with the way the financial rules hamper certain teams at the moment...

Thiago totally exposed our lack of pace yesterday. Ridiculous by Moyes.

It's not rocket science, for god's sake!!!

Our centre-backs are having to do more than they should do and they are big lads who I presume tire quicker from lumping around a bigger frame…

If they had less to go all game then they would be fresher for longer and make better decisions. Get the team balance sorted, then I'll judge them. Until then, our centre-backs have my respect for having to cover everyone else's lack of ability.

That's a mic drop moment. Didn't know that, nice piece this. Sometimes stats tell a story, that's a good (or bad?) one.

Comparing the attack of Forest and Brentford, and our ability to defend against them, is wrong. Forest mainly crossed the ball into our box, where it was dealt with on nearly every occasion. Brentford posed an altogether different threat.

I'd also add that vs Forest we defended as a team; against Brentford, we didn't.

No reason why we cannot sign Nathan Ake for left-back and when needed centre-back or in a three. And for god's sake get a right-back: Vithino from Brazil maybe won't cost a fortune.

Tarkowski and Mykolenko wouldn't get in my team. Tarkowski been good for us in past but not now... and as for Mykolenko -- he's a good pro but a crap left-back.

We simply aren't a team that can thrive playing on the front foot, it's killing us.

This is another of those fanciful football fantasies that fans are so desperate to believe.

But it's complete bollocks because that game is gone; it cannot be "put right" by future results. It's in the record books now... and forever, recorded as a dismal home loss to Brentford.

What happens on Wednesday is an entirely separate game, an entirely different 3 points at stake because those 3 points are gone, never to be seen again. And whatever happens on Wednesday, it can never put that shitshow right.

It's the midfield am worried about; if we play Iroegbunam and Rohl, we will get beat, the two of them are poor.

We have got to bring in a right-back this January. O'Brien as a makeshift right-back has run its course.... teams know this and attack us down our right side, and it will carry on until that position is sorted.

To me, the idea that incorporating Patterson into the line-up based on one adequate performance after years of failure makes absolutely no sense. O'Brien certainly belongs in the middle, not at right-back, but if one of his legs fell off, he'd still be a better defender out there than Patterson, and as we know, Moyes emphasizes defense over attack from his backliners.

There's nothing we'd all rather see than a centre-back pairing of Jake and Jarrad, bookended by two exciting young attacking full-backs. But we'll have to wait till next season for that.

In the meantime -- barring a quality right-back signing in the window -- Moyes will continue to play Jake O'Brien at right-back, and we will continue to be unbalanced and lacking in attacking flexibility. So be it.

This debate comes down to whether our defense, and our team overall, is better with Keane or Patterson in the line-up, and to me the answer is clear. Whatever the question, the answer has never been Nathan Patterson.

In a few weeks, we will hopefully have another debate about whether Tarkowski or Keane will have to give way for Jarrad Branthwaite's return.

If you're a manager, you should have a good idea of your best 11 for most of the season. Well, if you asked him who is going to play right-back and if he says O'Brien, then he should go, this is poor management and does O'Brien no favours.

Jarrod and Jake stand out for our future but Coleman not packing in has killed us long ago... he should've packed it in.

Finally, Tarkowski has just signed another 2 years... good luck with that.

The reason Keane and Tarkowski looked good together this season was that Gueye was playing in the hole in front of them, and stopped them from being exposed.

I thought Tim Iroegbunam was so poor yesterday, and Merlin Rohl just as bad when he came on. They walked through the middle and Keane plays so deep because of lack of pace.

I don't think we can be any worse with Patterson at full-back and O'Brien at centre-back, we can play further up the field.

I'm hoping Moyes had his eyes open yesterday to see how Armstrong did more in 13 minutes than Iroegbunam did in 77 and Rohl in 45... and I won't even mention McNeil.

But he's such a nice fella and those contract extensions have been happy clapped from here to Sligo?

Same with Tarkowski, he's bound to improve. Surely he deserves another 2 years?

The recruitment of players at this club worries me. The retention of them gives me sleepless nights...

Forest and Bournemouth saw O'Brien while we were losing 1-0 against Palace when Keane came off.

Fair point on Gana, of course, and there's no question Jake is our best healthy centre-back, but none of that changes my view on Patterson. When the best thing you can say about him is that he couldn't be any worse, it speaks volumes. But I strongly agree with you on Armstrong. I'd love to see him start on Wednesday.

Conor, I will recheck my facts and you may be right. But I still say our record shows that it's been a decently effective combination.

He is trying to see this through the eyes of the manager. I believe Moyes thinks he has three centre-backs and no right-back. His actions thus far would suggest as much.

All of our centre-backs are capable of decent games, but none of them is particularly brilliant -- despite O'Brien turning into Bobby Moore in the eyes of some since that now epic victory against The Nottingham world eleven.

I may be wrong but I will be amazed if Moyes doesn't persist with his 3 centre-backs against Wolves, and I would be even more amazed if he didn't play O'Brien at right-back.

O'Brien may not be good at going forward as a right-back, but there are two sides to the story. When an attack comes down our left. our boy Jake is as good as there is at sweeping round the back to defend against opponents coming in from the blind side.

I know which side of his game Moyes will be focused on. I expect to see O'Brien play right-back until such time when the club can bring in a specialist.

And I further predict that new full-backs will arrive in the summer, not in this window. I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.

I know which side of his game Moyes will be focused on. I expect to see Jake play right-back until such time when the club can bring in a specialist."

Sad but true.

I watched the Forest game, but I watched it mainly as a fan. I loved it, I loved playing those sort of games, those 10 men vs Man Utd games -- I kicked every ball... and every Man Utd player, but sometimes my attention drifted into coach mode and what I saw was Tarkowski playing on the right of the centre-back pair with O'Brien on the left.

Whereas in the main Keane plays on the right and Tarkowski plays on the left.

'Average players have the odd good game; good players have the odd average game.'

Keane has mostly been in the 'odd good game' portion of his very average bell curve; it won't last.

Yes, we need a specialist right-back, but the benefits of O'Brien at centre-back outweighs the benefits of him as an 'Average' right-back... we can easily fill the 'average' full-back position with Patterson -- the very definition of 'average'.

In fact, we need 2 more O'Briens to replace the 2 'old men' and as cover for Branthwaite, who -- if he ever gets fit... which is a Rumsfeldian known 'unknown' -- may yet be sold to generate funds.

Apropos of nothing, I look across the headlines at Celtic, Man Utd, Chelsea, not to mention Frank, Nuno and others and think, maybe I can maybe stick Moyes for 6 to 12 months -- jeez, I must be going soft in my old age.

I'd be staggered if either Patterson or Garner doesn't start v Wolves. Moyes called out the centre-backs, took no personal accountability, and journalists offering fixture list, Afcon and players brought off; Moyes refused to take the Get Out Of Jail Free card on any of them.

Both the Fulham and Palace turnarounds came with Garner at right-back and likely these will come to play. If we are getting pinned back by these lot, I don't think the Hill Dickinson will be as tolerant.

Wolves, Leeds and Bournemouth at home will need to see a few points on the board.

First off, we've lost 8 league games and 9 games in total with Tarkowski and Keane at the back. In all of those games, O'Brien was at right-back.

In contrast, we have won 6 league games with Tarkowski and Keane. In 3 of those, O'Brien was not at right-back. And in 1 of those, the Palace game, O'Brien moved to centre-back and we won.

Seems the trend is very simple, statistically O'Brien doesn't work at right-back.

Disclaimer: I manually looked at this and it's boring, so I might have made a mistake!

We have 28 points.

22 of those have come with a Tarkowski - Keane pairing.

That could just as easily be read as a comment on the opposition. My own thoughts are that we should be picking the best players in their best positions with maybe an occasional outing in another position to help out.

I'd never have seen Jimmy Gabriel as a long-term centre-forward and similarly O'Brien should be playing central defence.

Get a few draws on top of that and they will want us parading 8th place through the city in an open-top bus.

There isn't much you say on this thread that I disagree with, but I fear Moyes has read the room better than you have. He likes his centre-backs and he believes that will be the best way to get to a "respectable" (I fucken hate that word) position.

Leighton Baines was, in my opinion, a Rolls-Royce of a player, the best full-back this club has had in half a century...
But only injury forced Moyes to stop leaving him on the bench in favour of a centre-back.

Patterson is no Baines. That's for sure... and I think it's going to take a lot more than one injury for him to get a regular game.

1964 Jimmy Gabriel would be like Conan the Barbarian vs playschool to today's defences...

Not too sure how the refs would take to him -- he was hard but fair and never dirty.

He made those two supposed hard cases Charlton and Hunter run for cover.

His first two goals were score from well inside the penalty are and his third was scored when we were throwing the kitchen sink and Tarkowski went into a coma allowing him to stroll into our half completely unchallenged. The other goal was a corner.

Tarkowski has played around 140 games for Everton and since the day and hour he signed we have played with the deepest defence in the league. We very, very, rarely get done for pace because he leaves very little pitch behind him.

Let have this right. We we beaten by poor concentration. weak will and individual errors. Thats the way we are ALWAYS beaten.

Missed first 3 games injured
Played 6 90 minutes
2 subs
4 injured
1 sub
4 injured
2 sub
1 injured
2 90 mins
2 injured
7 games 3 90s
2 unused subs
2 subs

22 league games played, 13 games missed via injury.

At the same time, Lescott was used effectively at left-back. Baines was not match-fit for large parts of the season, and had injuries when he was just getting a foothold in the team.

Perhaps he wasn't fully trusted as a young player. But let's be clear: injuries had a far greater impact than the manager.

Hahaha. You can say that again. It wasn't until Yobo got injured and Lescott was required in central defence that Moyes finally relented and trusted "young" Baines (he was 23 at the time). Moyes's hand was forced.

There is only one relevant fact here. When Moyes had Baines, Jagielka, Yobo and Lescott fit, he chose to play the three centre-backs. They were far better at defending corners, see, and they didn't fuck with his rigid game plan, with that overlapping malarkey.

Won't be the first player to have a season ruined from injuries in the first half of the season. An unused sub in 3 of the last 8 matches of the season, tells me, he wasn't still over the injuries rather being to unable to defend a corner...

Once over the injuries in the following season, from 26 December, he played 90 minutes in all but one game. Again he must have rated him to choose him in every game when fit.

He spent £6M on a left-back, which was the same money he paid for a centre-forward in James Beattie a season or so earlier. If he didn't fancy him, he wouldn't've paid that or would have sold him for a Dan Burn equivalent.

One thing we will agree on, it was a pleasure to watch Leighton. For about 5 years, he was the best player on the pitch.

Despite that, our defence of corners, free-kicks and long throws has been terrible at Hill Dickinson.

You omit to mention his one on one that Picford saves to stop them going 2-nil and the many times he got in behind to hold it up and they surged forward to support him. Tarkowski and Keane could not get near him on the run.

Jake is similar to Branthwaite for pace and we need it in the centre-back on this big pitch. Also to your point, if we can hold the line higher up the pitch because we have pace, then the midfield players won't be so outnumbered with the opposition playing through the lines as easily as Brentford did.

Once an attacker gets a run on the defender he's almost always going to climb above him.

On saying that, I still think Pickford was impeded for their second.

Does anybody know what I did wrong? Thanks.

I would add that corners are not Pickford's strong point either.

With regards to the thread's title, it's worked okay in past games. I think the Brentford game was just a bad day in the office.

Calafori leaps magnificently, but the rest are there to block off to make that happen. The attackers are man-marking the defenders...

That's fair enough, though I would point out (as mentioned in the piece) those 3 points v Palace only came after Keane was taken off.

This isn't to go too hard on one of Keane or Tarkowski, both have their strengths. But it's becoming increasingly clear that Everton struggle, especially when chasing games, when those two are partnered together.

If you want centre-backs to help hold onto a lead, sit deep and clear danger, then they're well suited. But, particularly at home, Moyes isn't looking to do that.

In all of my years watching football, I am still waiting to see space score a goal.

Designate who is marking whom from set-pieces. If the man you are marking scores, it's your fault.

We survived with Patterson at full-back against Forest, and the back 4 should have stayed the same. But Moyes will not change it back, it would be admitting an error of judgment, and the Scot is consumed by pride, and it's all about himself, and not about Everton FC.

This man is no good for Everton. He has shown his true colours -- and they're not Everton's.

What was it we used to sing? “Jimmy Gabriel is an angel“.

A true Everton legend.

I think the rest of your post is tosh.

Never will I forget him playing silly buggers against the corner flag in '66 to wind the clock down. Great right-half and chipped in with many a goal.

He came back here with Southampton and got a fantastic reception. We won 4 - 2 and he may have scored.

It would be interesting to hear what the fans backing Moyes are happy with.

Also, the fans disappointed in Moyes, it would be good to hear their reasons.

For example, read my incredible comment earlier - the centre back partnership isn't as big an issue as playing O'Brien at right back. That's when things fail. Moyes HAS to get his favourites into the team, regardless of all the analytics at his disposal.

I think he is what he is. If you want guaranteed safety l, he's your man more than any other. But I want excitement, entertainment, jeopardy and the chance to win. Moyes will never deliver that.

Despite their failings, Ancelotti (obviously), Silva, Martinez, even Lampard felt like there was a chance.

Yobos injury problems persisted the next season so Moyes had no option but to play "The one for the future" regularly. It was then he realised what every Evertonian already knew.

Baines was a local boy and there was an awful lot of local interest surrounding him. Moyes's fuckaroundary was the source of immense frustration.

I was there at the interview and I sat among 40,000 people who saw Baines sitting on the bench knowing how exciting he was. I lived it and no amount of apologetic pap will alter what thousands of us witnessed first hand

You have to ask yourself. Would the dithering fucker have ever given Baines his chance if Yobo didnt get injured Would he ever have dropped one of his precious center halves ?

people can draw their own conclusions...

Brilliant that Ian, because the way we have been defending corners, there might actually be a degree of truth in that mate!

Pickford’s concentration doesn’t help because he uses his arms to push people away, which instinctively takes his eyes away from the ball for that split second, and then when he looks again, his space has been blocked off by one of those attackers, and he can’t get anywhere near the ball?

It’s an interesting thought though, because on closer inspection it does now feel as though teams are just putting attackers in the middle of each defensive zone, and it’s stopping defenders from getting a running jump before heading it.

Asked had Keane had any effects after playing Brentford after missing the Forest game, Moyes said no he came through and was pleased with his performance against Brentford.

Asked about the losses at Hill Dickenson, he said we started well but have had a blip which given the players injured or away might be

expected.

He was then asked could the fans do more at Hill Dickenson, he said no the fans have been magnificent. He was asked about Harrison Armstrong and he said he was pleased with him when he came on.

It showed the logic of David Moyes, and also why the EPL, is different to any other league, because for 80% of teams, brawn can often be the equal of ability, in such a physically demanding league.

Everton brought a set piece coach in for six months last season, brought in my his mate Moyes—- what the fuck he did apart from picking his wages up I haven’t got a Scubie,maybe one of the Yankee owners did and sent him on his way.

Problem is we have not got a full team of players capaple of doing that.

How many teams have we seen relegated because the manager wanted to play a way that the players couldn't do successfully.

The reason Moyes attracts criticism is he doesnt try to play in a way he knows they are not capable of playing.

We can all argue the toss about who should play in certain positions and the merit of the manager but obviously if he had a squad of classier players we should be more successful, but does that make him a better manager?

Any manager would want to bring in players with his job on the line, if its true what he said, I would wager he's been told not to buy players.

He prefers to manage a team rather than a squad and it must be very frustrating, if you’re not in his initial thoughts.

When he was available at the start of the season when signed, he played the full 90 minutes in his opening 6 games in a row. So there must have been some faith.

He played the full game in 11 of his 23 matches in his first season. The games he was sub for, were invariably after the 13 games he missed from injury.

If you aren't fit, its hard to cry about not getting picked.

The following season he finished the season playing 20 games in a row, bar 8 minutes.

Yobo played in 10 of those games.

Baines started and played the full 90 minutes in 25 games of that season. Yes he was sub for some of those, he got benched after a 3 nil defeat to Portsmouth, 3-1 defeat to arsenal, so perhaps merited.

He is safety first, but you cant really blame him for that. You know how tight this League is, one or two defeats and you sink rapidly.

I don't think the club is where it is now because of our managers, its because with the exception of the chosen few, us and the rest of the teams have try to operate with hands tied behind our backs.

Those 28 points have come from playing every team in the league, what other opposition do you want us to have to dispute it?

I and thousands of others. saw Baines sit on the bench while a center half played left back FIVE TIMES. You do understand that ?...We saw it.

You've tried repeatedly to disprove it with "facts" (haha) and you have failed. Thats because it happened. Its in the official records

Yobo may have gotten back into the team at center half but you have to understand that by then, Baines had taken the chance his absence had given him and forced Moyes hand.

If your going to base your arguments on stats at least try to understand them

I must admit I did laugh when you tried to apologise for Moyes by claiming the player was injured.

Sure he was injured during that season, but are you really suggesting that the great Davey Moyes is enough of a fuck-wit to put an expensive new signing on the bench when he was injured ? worse still; Bring him on risking further damage ? I'm shocked

In his first stint as manager over the course of 11 seasons Moyes teams scored an average of 49 goals per 38 game season.

He is a scared manager when it comes to taking the risks you have to take to win games,wont risk a defeat by going for a victory.

Moyes said on signing Baines that he was our future left back and Lescott would be centre back.

The fact that Yobo and Jagielka were such a good centre back pairing kept Lescott from his preferred position. Don't change a winning formation. Where have I heard that recently?

And of course Baines was not left on the bench, he played in 29 games in his first season.

He has tried desperately hard to deny my comment that Moyes left Baines on the bench five times while playing a center back at left back.

He failed, but I'm more than happy for you to have a go The more the merrier.

No, I am suggesting a player that isn't match fit, starts on the bench. It's what good managers do when you've a decent squad...

To be fair it worked. He was able to get through the injury and played pretty much game thereafter.

I'll contrast that with James Mccarthy. Rushed back into the squad, and he was absolutely ruined by Mr Martinez.

5 games is fuck all btw, when you make a grand statement he would rather play centre backs over a decent full back. But thats not much of an issue at our place, as our current full backs are dreadful.

Manage a squad - he’s never had a squad, is probably another myth that is taken as fact with regards our current manager

Hopefully Baines is telling Dibling, to work harder and explaining to him that talent alone isn’t enough because although there might have been a couple of reasons to have a little bit of sympathy towards the kid, I personally found it hard to cut him any slack, because sometimes you have just got to roll up your sleeves and show everyone that you want it

That's was not some fella in the alehouse peddling a "Myth". It was a direct quote from Alan Irvine (Moyes's number 2) in an interview he gave to the Athletic last year.

Baines was injured (ankle) when he signed for us so couldn't play on crutches. Then when he did get on the grass he had a couple of injuries that kept him out for 2 months, Oct 27 - Nov 15 (ankle) and Dec 8 - Jan 1 (Achilles) and wasn't fully fit until the close season after he had an operation on his ankle to remove a bone fragment.

Nevertheless he played 29 games in his first season so wasn't kept out of the side by Moyes preferring Lescott at left back. The other reason Lescott was at left back, besides Baines injuries, and the fact that he was very good there, was the strong centre back partneship of Jagielka and Yobo which kept Lescott out of his preferred position. (don't change a winning side?)

Or do you have a reason why Lescott wasn't allowed to play in his preferred position and Moyes played Jagielka instead? Maybe Moyes didn't trust Lescott?

Quote from Moyes on signing Baines"Leighton is someone that we have been after for a long time and he is someone who will give good competition to our squad. We see him as a left-back. We already have Nuno Valente to play there and Joleon Lescott can cover in that position, but we really want [Lescott] to be a central defender"

So, played 29 games in his first season and you are obsessing over only 5 games which probably coincide with his return from injury.