Jermaine Beckford states the obvious for Barry and Beto

The problem is creating good quality chances for them.

Also, the manager needs to stop slagging the forwards in public and set the team up to create chances.

That's perfectly respectable. James Beattie went a whole season not scoring from open play!

To me, this is just beyond the far post about 4 or 5 yards in the box, running at an angle to meet the cross, if it is meant for them, between the centre of the goal and the back post. This assumes other players are moving towards the post nearest to the crosser but we seldom look so organized.

The general consensus was Beto had a good game vs Burnley. And his workrate was great. But he managed just two passes in the opposition half in 83 minutes.

Two passes to bring the midfield into the game. That's why Moyes will be unhappy, and if our centre-forwards can only find 2 passes in the opposition half all game, I can understand why.

We have some good rounded footballers in Garner, Ndiaye, Armstrong, Grealish, and Dewsbury-Hall, Branthwaite, and Pickford, but we need more.

We need another 5 or 6 at least to push that group on, and make it harder for the opposition to shut down, marking our better players out of the game. That 5 or 6 maybe our new players; maybe they're lads that aren't in that group yet.

That's the patient path I hope we are on. We need more players that are capable of getting 10-15 goal involvements in the Premier League. We need to stop signing defensive stoppers & spoliers And that's likely to cost.

There are not that many stand-out typical centre-forwards in the Premier League that I can think of, off the top of my head.

Recently there is only Dewsbury-Hall who is a real goal threat of our other players -- leaving out our centre-backs and full backs.

"But he managed just two passes in the opposition half in 83 minutes."

How many passes did Beto get into his feet in the opposition half?

They are very poor footballers with limited football intelligence, no first touch or ball control, can't strike a ball properly, averagely paced and are terrible in the air, despite being 6'-4” plus.

The good thing is they only cost us a combined £50M or so.

Hard to achieve anything if you can't.

If it was 2, he had 100% pass success.

If you can't see that they're very poor Premier League footballers, then we see the game very differently.

He has said himself he needs to work on this side of the game -- just barging into people isn't the answer! But he has got the message about working harder than he was doing for the first 12 odd games.

Beto gives his all (most of the time) but, as someone pointed out, neither of them get any consistent or great service.

I can see the club holding on to Barry and letting Beto move on at the end of the season (providing there is a better player available) but who knows what will happen?

Mike, I'd like to see them with a lot of quality crosses into the box; them having to "flick it on" is down to the manager's long-ball tactics.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Yd3mClO9GB4

My eldest lads favourite Goodison moment.

Ndiaye, for example, is a great dribbler but he creates next to nothing and currently isn't helping out by scoring any goals.

Put any forward in that team and they ain't scoring many.

I wouldn't be taking any advice from Beckford (but thanks for the link Mike, what a goal that was) who in his whole career played one and a bit seasons in the top flight.

I'm smiling now as the new strategy appears to be combining the efforts of these two to make them one!!!!!! Only on here.

And now we have not just someone using statistics but not giving us the said statistics. Come on, Ryan (12), give us the statistics for Barry's heading. Could you also provide us with the information on how many headers did not go to one of ours?

Crosses probably come from full-backs, than what are wide forwards these days. Something Wegner started.

None of our full-backs can put in a decent cross. And we tend to lack runners into the box for pull-backs other than Dewsbury-Hall. Gana lacks the composure invariably, Garner has it, Armstrong should have it in time.

Then "picking someone out in the box"

Is that not a cross?

I think Ian's first sense is aerial crosses swung in from the flanks.

The second sense is more played along the ground.

Mind, I'm not sure our full-backs can do either, to be honest.

Wegner reasoned that cross conversion was such a low percentage, why bother. But he did have Henry & Bergkamp.

It's not a "cross"

A low, and hard cross.

A high cross, they were both crosses when I played.

Wenger had plenty of good wingers in all his time at Arsenal Ian, didn't Overmars play in the Bergkamp/Henry team?

You are coming across as likeable

We don't have that player,possibly Ndiyae apart, seen him play a couple of really clever passes recently that nobody read.

My point is we should change our approach and get more crosses in to the centre forward, they are not missing bag fulls of chances because they don't get bag fulls of chances.

We need to improve on our goal tally from open play to have any chance of Europe

Until that changes (Pace at the back??) and Barry (/) Beto are on the shoulder of their last defender and not consistently playing 10+yds deeper than their last man, chances will be scarce.

And that's before we even look at Moyes long standing practice of bringing every body back for free kick and corners...

Lets look at the opposition's numbers...

10 out field players

minus 1 freekick / corner taker = 9

minus 1 defender on the half way line = 8

Yet in an already crowded push and shove goal area we have 10 plus a keeper who can...allegedly...use his hands as well - and we still get done at set pieces...(which Arsenal are good at.)

Take 2 out of our 10 outfield players out of the Penalty Box Melee.

= our 8 +our Keeper Vs their 8

The key point not to be overlooked in all this is Attack the 'kin Ball!

Put 1 just outside the 'D' for the short clearance

Put 1 on the halfway line to come short for the longer clearance and to keep their last man honest...and perhaps watch them then worry/panic about the 1 Vs 1 and pull another of their players back for cover.

But alas, No.

The perceived wisdom seems to be Defend, Pull everyone back, KITAP1, they shall not pass...then complain about crowded 6 yard boxes and how the Referees do nothing.

Solve the problem at source - empty the box a bit, play on the front foot, put the ball...literally AND figuratively - In Their Court.

It'll never happen with Moyes of course and our strikers, such as they are, will continue to struggle with snatched half chances

I've a feeling it will.

Wonderful post BTW!

Putting crosses into centre forward, I don't think will change that much. Keeping the ball better up front, over lapping full backs, more runners from midfield, playing 25 yards further forward & some fucking movement would be far more effective.

Id love to see two left up top, and have the ability to cut teams open on the counter. The united goal shows how ridiculously easy it is, if youve players that can move the ball and quick players to finish.

I tend to think that in the same way as your main central defender leads the defence the centre forward should be doing the same in attack, old fashioned it may be but it is not without options, your main striker distracts defenders although movement by others in the box may do the same and most of the better teams seem to be able to get at least 5 or 6 in the box while we are lucky to manage two most of the time, but look at the Burnley game, was it, especially Gana's cock up.

Beto, I thought, was good v Burnley and looked better all round in what was it 83 minutes than recent Barry. But for me the truth is that neither of them are Everton 9s. They join a long list. Right now I hope that Beto starts the next game but I'd prefer to see George or Ndiaye in the false 9.

Barry reminds me of the pineapple guy who 'played' for Forest.

It still cracks me up that Ryan and co are actually mixing the two into one to say that it ain't that bad. That really is desperation and why do it in the first place?

No opposition would dare leave just one defender on the half way line if we defended corners as you suggest. Unfortunately there is an invisible couch on the edge of our six yard box and Moyes simply cant relax unless he see's all of his players hiding behind it.

As for crosses into the box? In the words of the EPL's most prolific cross converter (Shearer) - "Its the wide mans job to get balls into the box. It's my job to get on the end of them.

Barrys heading stats are not worth a blow on a rag mans bugle.

"Putting crosses into centre forward, I don't think will change that much. Keeping the ball better up front, over lapping full backs,"

What do the full backs do with the ball on a successful overlap? Cross?

If they both had taken even their most basic of chances, they both would be sitting on 12 - 15 goals each this season.

I would say they both have missed clear open goals this season; at least three were from inside the 6-yard box.

We are still hoofing up field to Dixie Dean!

https://x.com/DataMB_/status/2029634106091298901/photo/1

You say:

It still cracks me up that Ryan and co are actually mixing the two into one to say that it ain't that bad’

I did no such thing you wanker

‘Its the wide mans job to get balls into the box. It's my job to get on the end of them’

This is the problem

The forwards barely get any crosses into the box to attack. When they do their goals are roughly inline with expectations

Dickhead

When Baines was making those great under lapping runs at pace, he gave real threat. Were they crosses? Sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. But they were things that Obrien and Mykolenko don't have in their locker.

Thats what we miss. 2 real, rounded footballers at fullback that would open up the attacking side of the game, but quick enough to get back & defend.

A working in progress team, and why we need a right winger, a better forward or two, and a couple of full backs. All need to be able to hit the ground now. Not 3 years time, now.

Paul @ 41, don't crack up, you can combine the two players Beto and Barry in the centre forward position, because neither are on for a full game.

What would you suggest to up the 9 goals total in open play we have scored at home this season?

what a brave little soldier you are.

They don't just cross John, some are good enough to get into the box, and shoot or cut it back.

Cut backs & shots, will add to open play goals, as will crosses. But like I said teams putting in crosses has reduced, given the low conversion/completion rate.

I think Shearer would have lost the plot long ago if he had to survive on the crosses this lot put in. He wouldnt have scored anywhere near the amount he did. Thats for sure

I asked a question on how we could increase the 9 home goals in 16 games we have scored from open play?

Who out of our squad can play full back to provide the service to the forward you recommend?

Mykolenko used to hit the goal line more often but from what I've noticed this season is being either held back tactically or, when Grealish was playing, was ignored as Grealish cut inside more often than not.

I felt that Mykolenko then stopped even bothering to overlap as he knew he wouldn't be used and instead recovered to his defensive position.

I'm not sure about the left but I feel pretty strongly that Patterson should be given more opportunity on the right as an over lapping full back, as he did with Scotland in his few appearances.

But to answer your question:-

The best right back is Garner, but you're losing the best midfielder in the club.

I'd play Patterson over O'brien, but I think those 2 and Coleman are all poor options for the club.

Mykolenko gets the shirt, but offers absolutely nothing going forward. Aznou was bright in the handful of minutes as a winger vs Sunderland, but I am less convinced he is ready for Premier League football at left back.

We need to spend money at full backs. We haven't had a solution there for years, and that is the bottom line. Make do and mend, can only get you so far.

It's not been just Moyes though, the other managers we have had while he's been here have not rated him either!

In Moyes case maybe he thinks O'Brien is better on corners against us, and corners for us with his extra height.

Maybe he's poor at keeping himself fit or he's a bit of a boyo after dark, who knows!

His non involvement tells me thst decision has been made and Moyes is rewarding players with minutes that have a future at the club.

Patterson could well be retained, to disprove that, but the signs don't look good for Patterson.

It is what it is. The squad we have is what we will be using to try to get Europe.l this season.

We won't get Europe with an open play home goal scoring record of barely over one open play goal per two games.

Encourage, and more importantly give permission for the two full backs to get higher up the pitch, with their quality it's nothing intricate, work the overload and produce early, one or two touch crosses.

We haven't got the ability to slide people in with defense cutting balls. Last one I saw was Garner at Forest some months ago

It’s not just the fullbacks, it’s the midfield including Grealish and N’Diaye who are very reluctant to cross, or play a pass to Barry or Beto.

We have full backs who can defend but offer little going forward, certainly little quality.

Patterson as alternative can get forward, offers a better shape at right back, but can’t defend.

Our strikers have struggled to hold the ball up, bring others into play and both lack striking instinct. You really see them getting across their man, or losing their man when the ball is delivered into the box. To Ian’s point, if you had reached the by line looking up for Beto or Barry, neither would have the wherewithal to have found space.

I don’t see it as a case of improving full back service to Barry/ Beto from what we have.

This Summer the most pressing areas to address imo are both full backs and a quality striker. Indeed we have failed to address these positions for some time now.

I think youve either got it or you haven't. And the games ive seen, id suggest that they havent.

Mykolenko 3 assists in 134 matches

Obrien 1 assist in 48 matches

Patterson 3 assists in 55 matches

I am sorry to say, you play these fellas further forward, youll just concede more. Id accept it if it was just a Moyes or Dyche problem, but Rafa & Lampard played no differently.

5 home open play goals to come thenat the current rate.

Lets just carry on doing what's not working.

Imo that will see us bottom half finish.

Just the bottom 5:-

Spurs:

Spence

Porro

Udigie

Forest:

Williams

Aina

West ham

Diouf

Wan Bissaka

Wolves

Bueno

These in my opinion are all better attacking full backs, and that's just the bottom 5

And there are plenty of others not listed that are similar to what we have in Kyle Walker, Walker Peters etc

I reckon we will finish around 10-11th this season, playing soul destroying football.

I would swap that for 13-14th to watch us attempt to play decent, open football every home game.

Individual choice of course.

What a nice person you are Mr. Holroyd. And, in best Dave Brent voice: 'oooooo you're 'ard'.

Ryan Holroyd 1: Beto and Barry are more or less in-line their expected goals. RH 49: 'their goals are roughly inline with expectations. Dickhead'

Would you help here and tell us exactly what 'their expected goals' and 'expectations' are and what you base this on?

Not one. but two appearances on the BBC News page. He has to fork out north of £300,000 after libelling Eni Aluko claiming that she "cynically sought to exploit her status as an alleged victim of racism and bullying". But he was not in court because he is sitting in a cell right now and for a few more weeks after bravely - with his mate - attacking a former non-league gaffer with a golf club.

Probably because they have overlapping full backs when we don't.

How many times have you seen the ball played to Grealish on the left and there's a wide open channel waitin for an overlapping full back or winger tobrun into and receive the ball and put a cross into the box?

Instead Grealish is forced to cut inside giving the opposition players time to get back and the area is congested.

As Ian says, if our defenders can only defend and not attack then if they push into attack, who's defending?

Whereas making you a happy clapoer and languishing in the relegation candidates positions will get us...where?