'Genius and Everton legend or miserable, imagination-free Presbyterian chancer?' has been responsible for many a lively multi-post thread.

11) Stephen Pienaar - Saint or Sinner?

No wonder I lost my job as headline writer! Now, what happened to my box of punctuation...

Oh, and by the way, the 'Road to Glory' book should be out for Christmas.

14) Drenthe- A Sorheim special.

The price of a pint of cider round my way is £3.80...yes, you read that right THREE pounds and eighty pence.
That's nearly four quid.
£1.20 change from a fiver.
I said, "I only want one pint." He nodded.

Thank God I don't drink the stuff (by the way, if you get down to Sainsbury's pronto, they've got 3 versions of Greene King IPA for £1 a 500ml bottle. You can have nearly 4 pints of the stuff for the price of the sodding cider. The more you drink, the more you save. Don't tell the reds.)

On the topic under debate I'd like to throw Everton's Marketing department into the hat as well as what Gary Speed's mysterious "good name of Everton" was all about (God rest his soul).

And the socks should be white. Full stop.

Odd how some of the things mentioned here don't seem controversial at all to me. For instance, the Speed comment. I thought we all knew what he meant by that. Hic!

As somebody who lives in rural Worcestershire, I deny that Liverpool based fans have more valid opinions; but as a spasmodic attender (now) I accept that those who put money over the turnstiles (figure of speech) often have an edge in validity terms.

Well, I was accused of sinking the Titanic, gross indecency and had extracts from Mrs Beeton used in evidence against me. But I survived.

I was talking to a Norwegian ManU supporter recently. 'Ah, you are a scouser' said he spotting my EFC badge. 'Do you know what it means' I asked, and he shook his head. 'Lobscouse' I replied.

'But that is a Norwegian dish' he said. I rest my case.

And while I'm at it:

(84) Playing Captain Phip in centre mid
(85) Flapping Timmy - balance sheet? Debit or credit?
(86) Attacking Tony Marsh just because he is aforesaid Tony Marsh
(87) Deconstructing Eugene's quite brilliant imagination
(88) Moyesiah type lemmings who crow and crow whenever summit good happens

(88) the tragic state of left-wing politics in the UK (well it ought to be)
(89) The strange death of Ian Turnstead (90) Ross Barkley

17) Evertonians coming back from England duty injured

The question I would ask, as you use the word 'we', is whether you would apply the word 'scouser' to a resident of The Wirral? Woolyback, even 'wetback' I have heard.

Lobscouse was a dish known to sailors and at some point in history - nobody knows when - was either applied to or adopted by those docking on the Mersey -either side. Grandad's point was that those of Birkenhead and Liverpool alike were scousers. Whackers was the name given to those who worked around the Pier Head.

Some of our TW bretheren are indeed from Norway and my own Norman roots suggest that my ancestors travelled south in the long ships. But in my experience, the use of the word 'Norwegian' on this site usually refers to RS weekenders. True 'scousers' perhaps?

Kenwright era - Rooney and 50m price tag, media deal, samuelson, kings dock, destination kirkby, kit bag, fire safety certificates, Moyes 10 years, finch farm, season ticket 25 year securitisation.

18) 'Be careful what you wish for!'

eh, Mike? ;)

I wouldn't call Norwegian's true Scousers, we're named after their dish simply as a reference to the sheer numbers of foreign sailors to be found on the streets of Liverpool.

Your claim about people from the Wirral also being Scousers could well be valid, being from Liverpool though i've never referred to someone from the Wirral as Scouse and the couple of lads I know from over there hate being called Scouse.

If talking about someone from the Wirral I usually refer to them as 'being from over the water' unless i'm taking the piss out of my mate and then I will call him a Wool,I don't even know what a wetback is.

(I'm a middle-aged Evertonian - I absolutely HATE the idea of people having fun).

'it ain't no fun if the homies can't have none'

That's the way we roll round these parts ( Didsbury Village!)

Don't know whether it's true like.

When you say "That's the way we roll round these parts" do you mean the people of Didsbury are.....fat?

In our hood the bitches are loving the Zumba, so plenty of stringbeans in these parts

If I Martin is really clever, he could make the following his motto:

"You can tell a man of genius by the number of dunces lined up against him."
(J. Swift)

"I have taken note of the fact that Martin Mason is being discussed a lot".

Then say..

"I usually take note of people who resort to capitalised letters for the sake of emphasis"

I have to ask, are you a plod?

If not, Osbourne or Icke (insert name of eejit here), can consider himself a genius.

I hate to be a pedant but the Irish Chrisian Brothers beat it into me but the quote is

'When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.'

But the best Swift quote is undoubtedly
'He was a bold man that first eat an oyster.'

22) The Blue Union

24) 'Martin Mason & his verbal self-immolation':

"Knight Rider would kick Airwolfs arse, and don't even get me started on Street Hawk....he was shit"

"Prove it then. Prove it. Go on prove it."

It's on the "around the web" section in the bottom left corner of the home page.. I can't see how you Comment on the other sites articles but I enjoyed it and you should too..

The "font-inspired" shenanigans (quite predictably) screwed up the formatting of the page because a closing tag was missed somewhere along the line. And, yes, the thread had started to go off the rails so it needed some moderation.

It's enough of a job keeping up with the inane comments without having to clean up bad HTML as well... which is why we haven't provided HTML instructions before.

Well, I fuckin despair.

My apologies because I think my post kicked off your HTML problems but it has made a pleasant change to have a non confrontational thread.

I'm sure normal service will be resumed when Pip is selected on Saturday with Gibbo on the bench!

I doubt that everyone on this site wants to talk endlessly about, for example, the fine details of the Kenwright/Moyes set-up and the history of EFC's finances, etc, though some plainly do - which is fine and dandy, although it bores the hell out of me. If people want to have a laugh and a bit of banter with fellow Evertonians, what's wrong with that? Does this site have to be terribly sober all the time or is there room for tomfoolery? It's a genuine question.

You're the boss - well, you and Michael K - so what you say goes. But an explanation would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sends responses skyward. And for my money by far the most entertaining time reading TW.

Graham Mockford - every inch a Didsbury man (for those in foreign parts such as Buenos Aires and Warrington forgive me a minute) is quite right to set us right on Swift and others, although on reflection I think he might be dismayed to find that his spellchecker let him down. But then again, none of us is infallible. I think Pius XI said that.

As for Tubby Phelps. One of the greatest footballers ever to grace GP had to be Garrincha (Brasil 66, for the youth wing). It was always a topic as to whether his unusual leg formation was from a childhood accident or a vitamin deficiency stemming from the piss poor neighborhood he came from. If you don't know what I'm talking about simply go to YouTube. Magical football there for all to see.

Dennis, as a childhood mates my grandad and William Ralph (he hated the name Dixie) probably drank in the Rising Moon together. No hard evidence there then.

Martin Mason? I fear we are getting too close to Dan Brown territory here. Fiction is all well and good in the close season, but I can drive from here for lunch in the Saunier Bar et Grille in Rennes Le Chateaux. You don't mess around with them mothers, oh no.

I'll finish here then post again, as something just occurred to me.

Colin Wainworth: Sorry mate, Martin Mason does not bother me. I read some of Martin's old posts to determine what it could be that people find so infuriating. I found nothing, apart from his being quite verbose. But so was St Paul.

Graham Mockford: You may well be right. There are many falsely attributed quotes out. Plato never said, "beauty is the splendour of the true" and Dante never said that "the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutraility during the time of strife."

Eugene Ruane: What is it that I have failed to discern?

They are part of the collective memory, and can be cited at any time - but if anyone ever tells me about bus timetables to Kirkby again I think my brief will obtain fair grounds for a dismissal. We may all weep for what King's Dock might have been. But we hold it deep inside us somewhere and kick on.

We really do move on. Mirallas and sliced bread. Seamus the next Bainsie? Will Ossie play for England? Incidentally, why not? These are the things we care about most, and thankfully TW sorts out the playing and town planning stuff well enough for most of us to chip in where we feel qualified. And opinion is free - as it should be. As it is here.

"there is no item 23".

I'm still trying to sort out what Julian Batti et al are going on about. Having been detained by the lovely Adilina at Si Tapas, it being National Poetry Day and all, this is taking a little longer than expected.

But I do promise to bring football in somewhere - a quality apparently missing in some posts. Unless Dante, like one Pope I could mention, was also a goalkeeper, this could be difficult.

I can't really remember why though. Surely it would be harder to argue against that than it would be to argue against the suggestion that £3.80 for a pint of cider is a little bit pricey.

Regarding "inane comments" and the like, we do tend to act when threads degenerate or stray too far off topic. However, don't ask us to define those terms; they are subjective.... a bit like opinions — just saying!

More importantly, £4.25 for a pint of Double Vision (cider) tonight. As Walter liked to say.....disappointing. Was nice though.

"Scots probably have as much Arab blood in them as Scandinavian. How else do you explain the raven black hair on the likes of Pat Nevin? During the Middle Ages the Templars brought bands of Syriac Christian refugees to Scotland. It was among these Syriac Christians of Scotland that Freemasonry as we know it saw the light of day. Thank you Scotland for the French Revolution - and Pat Nevin"

Wow, talk about Dan Brown. I hope you make a lot of cash out of this one day Julian. There's a thesis in nearly every line. I particularly like the idea that the craft, Masonry, headed up by the most powerful in the land, any land, was the province of penniless refugees. Secret knowledge obviously pays. Sure, Pythagoras & co knew a thing or two about perpendiculars, and never published their findings. But that's a long way from transmuting base metal into gold. Why would a searcher of truth want gold?

And dark haired Scots. Thanks at least for allowing me to get back to football. I think it was the doctor in 'The Blood Donor', Tony Hancock, who said 'We all can't be Rob Roy you know'. Racial stereotyping? I might report you to the Pict Brigade, who I enjoy cordial links with, but I may save that for later.

French Revolution? Don't get me going. ' Il faut cultiver le jardin', as an expression of the imperatives of the Enlightenment was as important then as it is now. And its enemies grow stronger by the day.

But what has this to do with Pat Nevin's hair? Syriac Christians? The inhabitants of these precious Isles have always been immigrants, from the east. Go further west and you have to invent the boat. Any 'eastern' line in the inheritance dates from millenia before a few ragged Syriacs arrived. I live surounded by Iberian dolmens, and their people formed the bedrock of the Britons. Know yer history Julian.

Pat Nevin is one of the best pundits there is. He played, very well, for us and for many another, Chelsea in the old days included. They say, although I would never subscribe to Sky's evil empire, that Gary Neville, as an ex-pro does a good job for them. Not every ex-pro is to be trusted. Andy Gray, although he played for us and has a Cup Winners medal to prove it, pretends he didn't. He's a wanker. Pat Nevin is an intelligent bloke.

Like me. A Guardian reader. End of.

Dark haired Scots are all descended from the 9th Spanish legion who legendarily disappeared around the 2nd century. That's probably definitely an indisputable fact, because there are some films about it.

On a more serious note, I don't see the problem with Martin Mason, he's wrong quite a lot, he says some silly things, but I'm sure he's right sometimes too. If people really thought he was a "WUM" they'd ignore him and he wouldn't keep popping up in reference. It seems they just disagree with him and Toffeeweb has resorted to the kind of name calling and, frankly, online bullying that it's always been so proud of avoiding. If nine people on a thread agree and Martin Mason is the tenth who disagrees, it doesn't make him a WUM, it doesn't even make the other nine right. Some people in our community here need to grow up.

You only have to look at the received wisdom on Toffeeweb that Phil Neville shouldn't play in midfield, then contrast it with the Everton results and performances whilst he plays in midfield to wonder if maybe a large majority can be totally and spectacularly wrong whilst holding their views with utter conviction. Someone with a different viewpoint to you should be welcomed as a chance to re-evaluate your own (that's pretty much the point of posting in online discussions, in case anyone was wondering) not ridiculed because he hasn't got the right hair bobble in.

Kev Johnson - Midfield marvel

I'm convinced that MM is a master wind-up merchant, nobody could take up as many polarised positions as he does and be for real; and of course he's right sometimes.

BTW everybody who drinks lager should pay at least £4.40 a pint, which might just subsidise the price of real ale for us people who like a bit of taste in our liquid refreshment.

Incorrect mate. I simply believe that the board and manager are actually doing quite well under the circumstances. I believe that if anybody makes an accusation of anything then they should be able to back it up. I disagree with some on here. Is that polarised?

If and when you believe I'm wrong then you are far better correcting me than raising the opinion that I'm wrong?

* You are confusing Hermeticism with Pythagoreanism and Freemasonry with Alchemy. Freemasonry has nothing to do with the transmutation of base metals into gold; that is alchemy. I could not care less about Dan Brown; I have never read his books and never will.

* If saying that "all Chinese have black hair" amounts to racial stereotyping, then please go ahead: tell us some more jokes.

* "Go further west and you have to invent the boat." You do not h a v e to go further west and you do not h a v e to invent a boat; you could retreat inland. Those with boats came by the way of the sea.

As it happens I've rarely been active in the same threads as you I don't think, but I've read through a couple where I thought you've made some perfectly good points but been ridiculed and insulted rather than engaged with. I have a real problem with that.

Perhaps my assessment of you in the post above was actually more negative than I feel, but I was addressing your detractors and like a good politician phrased my language in the way most likely to appeal to them. I'm wary of having something pointed out to me that you may have said that I've missed that is completely ridiculous, and I've got a vague feeling you said you weren't interested in winning the League Cup (correct me if I'm wrong) which I disagree with, but otherwise your only crime seems to be to defend the incumbents at the club against some, at times, hysterical criticism. Something which I am certainly 'guilty' of myself.

Ken I think you'd get on with my Dad.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3940416669_c60dc6a98e_o.jpg

I had no malicious intent only to say that it's far better for me to be corrected than insulted. The insults are like water off a duck's back btw. Insults are the internet forum equivalent of a white flag.

What I said about the League Cup was that it wasn't a tragedy that we were out and that our chance of qualifying for Europe via league position was better anyway. I did try to quantify it too.

That's apple juice at best and piss at worst and you are paying £3,80p!

And you think BK is not doing a good job!

You need a dose of real ale - it'll help you see straight.

You say: "we do tend to act when threads degenerate or stray too far off topic. However, don't ask us to define those terms; they are subjective". Well, heaven's above, why not define them? I'm asking you to say what is acceptable on TW and what is not. Otherwise, I have to say, it comes over as randomly dictatorial. If there is no room on TW for light-hearted banter and the odd dollop of good-natured nonsense - as well as knowledgeable footy-talk, of course, and in-depth analysis of all things EFC-related - then I'm not interested.

* That would be the deadline day suspension I was talking about, Drew

Lyndon please feel free to delete them all!

If your mum talks with a limp and walks with a bit of a stutter, I might well BE your dad!

Attaboy!!

The filthy, good for nothing, scumbag, lowllife, redneck, brassneck, pikey, snotgobbling, fuck faced, arse wiping, hoggswogglin, fricker fracken, dirty robbing, thieving Bastards.

They make me fecking puke.

White socks defo........

Kevan Johnson should be knighted for services to football, What a guy

There is room for it in very small doses, but when threads are hijacked by comment after comment by two or three people having a conversation that veers way off topic, then we're going to step in.

[I will admit that due to the dubious value of the original post, I could have let yesterday's nonsense stand, but there are genuine performance considerations here too — the site became dragged down by the sheer weight of the database that stores all these comments towards the end of last season.]

It's the "slippery slope" adage at work; we have built a culture of discussion at TW over many, many years that provides the kind of forum where serious or meaty issues can be discussed intelligently and cogently by fans, one that is rare and to be treasured in my opinion.

If we allow the kind of inanity that took over this thread or the Deadline Day one you mention, then we undermine the standard of submission we're trying to foster and drive away those readers who have no interest in your sideshow conversations.

So, yes, you can inject a bit of humour and banter into a discussion but if you want to have real-time, off-topic discussions, the Live Forum is always open at toffeeweb.com/comment/live/.

Hot topic for discussion from me would be:

Match-going (and internet!) Football fans are old, miserable bastards, average age 44 (rising all the time) at a Premier League game, so will football even be around in 50 years time as a major spectator sport? Or will it be stairlifts at Goodison and sanatogen and tea at half time while you queue to empty your colostomy bag?

I fully support your stance Lyndon, there are plenty of other places for silly chatting, but occasionally on Toffeeweb, especially when there's not much actually going on in terms of new things to talk about, then a little frivolity is probably good for us all.

The Norman roots are beyond dispute - even on TW, and that might be a first.

But it is generally recognised (citation needed) that Normandy (heaven knows what they called it then, almost certainly not Normandie) was settled by raiders etc from the north, Norsemen, not necessarily what we call Vikings (adventurers in the original?). But definitely from the north, and they didn't mean Belgium (as I genuflect to my icon of the Big Fella and the soon to be Saint Kevin II). Its a bit like the Isle of Man situation. And, come to think of it, Norman Wisdom fits nicely in there somewhere too. Boom boom.

But to footballing matters.

Karl, you raise a valid point. The demographic doesn't lie. And which kid, without a dad etc without means gets paid into a game these days? Yes there are attempts to address this, but possibly sticking plaster on a cut throat.

Praise be we have no internecine recriminations over Hillsborough any more, but the all-seater stadia that followed made the the game much more expensive to see at first hand. Sky's buy out of this form of 'entertainment' fuelled the fire, and it might have been Platini, one of those who said that in the future going to the match will be free, because all the expenses will be paid for by television.

Hands up who has paid less to go to the match since the SkyTV takeover. We, the ticket purchasing public, whose presence as a crowd makes this training ground exercise into a spectacle are treated like shit.

Anyone who disagrees works for Murdoch.

On the subject of fans ages and the future, I have been looking at the faces in the crowds and there are a lot of late middle aged fans losing their hair and getting a bit wrinkled. Very few gangs of kids, even outside the ground, these days. When I first went to Goodison I reckon the Street End average age was no more than twenty. Now, it must be nearly double that and the Park End, the traditional home of the arl arse is even higher.

Honestly Lyndon, I will do my best to to work some football into this as I reply to Julian's points (@047) even though they contained no reference to the fine old game that I can see.

Hermeticism, I have to admit, is a new one on me. All I said was that I am fairly sure that Pythagoras didn't publish his stuff much beyond the initiates - who also didn't eat beans, as they make you pass wind (it is said) and air was taken to be a manifestation of the spirit. In footballing terms, this could be the non-Pythagorian bloke who sits in the seat in front of you at home games.

Julian's assertion that Freemasonry and alchemy are mutually exclusive obviously calls upon more knowledge than I am privy to. He knows and we don't. Would that be hermeticism? A bit like a Blue Bill announcement about what's going to happen next, the never does? A mystery.

I have to admit that it was wrong to use the term 'racial stereotyping'. It's meaningless. Like the statement, what was it, all Chinese people have black hair. In any case, I much prefer Mike Allison's totally proven fact that the lost legion's last patrol gave us Pat Nevin. He will no doubt be relieved, or something, to hear it.

But perhaps most perplexing of all in post 047 is the use of the s p a c e bar. Does this imply e m p h a s I s or or RSS?

Better than HTMLspeak don't you think L y n d o n?

Yeah yeah, they came by sea. Except for those who walked. Across what is sometimes called Doggerland, when this Sceptered Isle was Part of the Continent, as Donne might have put it. Pre-Beaker, I know, Mesolithic rather than Megalithic. But they came from the East. And until we are invaded by Incas, they always will. Basic geography. Perhaps the Picts went west. We don't know.

In any case, if they come from the east in the form of Nikica Jelavic, that'll do me. And if they do come from South America, in the form of Luis Suarez, I'd rather do without them.

ps

Thank you Ian Banks for a mention of Garrincha. Many a great footballer has died in the gutter - William Ralph didn't, but he scraped a living for many a year after his glory days.

I've been doing a bit of Garrincha pushing myself recently, and six minutes of football heaven are there on YouTube if you haven't been there already. Highly recommended.

How many pints of cider is that?

Off to Si Tapas, only to do a bit of research on prices you understand.

My prediction for tomorrow: 1-1

I hope I am wrong.

I remember this being bandied about years ago, and it seemed perfectly logical. Television wants full stands of passionate fans to improve the product through atmosphere and such like. As far as I can tell there is only one thing preventing it, and that is player wages. Without artificial rules like salary caps and such like, clubs will spend every penny they can find, including much that is borrowed, on convincing players to play for them and not someone else.

Steve, what was the answer? Incidentally, some of my mates had a similar discussion when we were much younger, and my friend Luke irritatedly announced "Dick Van Dyke" as an answer to the riddle. Apparently he had misheard and thought we were wondering where all the white doctors had gone. He was referring to Diagnosis Murder. True story.

Anyway, before Michael and Lyndon tear their hair out regarding this huge off-topic tangent, I'd like to add a relevant comment to this post that could be subtitled, "Once Blue, Now Poo". In other words, ex-players and managers who should be held with some affection / respect among Blues but are not.

My nomination is Mark Hughes - disrespectful to us as Man C manager and clearly just crap at his job. I keep hoping QPR lose and hope when we play them we can sing "Down with the RS, you're going down with the RS."

1. Got to be anyone who, inspite of irrefutable evidence indicating the man's incompetence, still backs, and claps, Blue Bill.
2. LIBBERPOOLFUTBAWLCLUBLA.
3. Steven Gerrard and all that sail in him.
4. Why Phil Neville can't pass the ball 10 fuckin yards.
5. Why my chinese turned up half way through this list.
6. Martin Mason
7. Martin Mason
8. Martin Mason
9. Martin Mason.
10. I'm fuckin' starvin'. Sorry Martin.

He was at a conference in France and presentations were in French and English. He, along with others was listening to the English translation of this French guy who said " blah blah... resolu par la sagesse du normandie" which was translated as the "the problem was solved by Norman Wisdom".

The french could never understand why all of a sudden all the British collapsed in fits of laughter. The people of Normandy are very good at solving problems.

Certainly didn't come across as tongue-in-cheek. Yer might want to work on that.

Sorry to piss on your chips, it was probably removed because it was utter shite.

Big shout to Sam Hoare 854, I laughed so hard in the office everyone now knows I'm not working!

I awoke as from a dream, read your comment, and read the dreaded thread again (hang on, I'm going for the Stuart Hall Prize for Bollox here), but I loved it too. I know I was pitching in there meself, but I was so glad to have revisited the mayhem that was going on around the line I was trying to negotiate.

So long as EFC do the job, TWebbers will follow suit.

And I believe the appropriate sign off is - simple as.