Unfortunately for the Neville haters, we are a better team when he is in it, whether that is at RB or CM. I think we are all expecting for Fellaini to be fit and Gibson to miss out so the starting XI I would like to see is:

Howard
Hibbert (if fit) Jagielka Heitinga Baines
Neville Fellaini
Mirallas Naismith Osman
Jelavic

With the 3 behind Jelavic being comfortable enough to interchange, and the option of Fellaini and Osman switching.

Couldn't agree more, Jimmy.

I cringe every time he is about to receive the ball, especially when we have been building up a nice piece of play. He panics under pressure resulting in turnover of possession, has no vision, an almighty awful first touch, can't execute any particular threatening passes, can't shoot and is often late in the tackle therefore giving away a free kick.

Oh, but wait, he can point and shout!

The guy is more hindrance than help these days. He was useful a few years ago but we should've moved on from this type of player by now. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. (Copyright to the above sentence courtesy of Martin Mason's book 'How to convince yourself you are right and retire undefeated'.)

I don't think what you have suggested is the answer. Heitinga doesn't play well in the midfield to be honest, he's likely to give away too many free kicks for mistimed tackles. The Hammer has been out for 8 months and is just getting fit again, a derby match would likely go on around him without him being to get into it... and if he was remotely ready, he'd have been in the U-21 game that Hibbert played in as an over age player. Oviedo hasn't yet played premiership football, throwing him into a derby, same effect as for Hitz, so our midfield would likely be just as overrun as with Neville, Osman.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think that's it.

Whilst I'm not a fan of Heitinga in midfield (as mentioned above) maybe he could pley WITH Neville and Osman so that we have more across the middle when they have the ball and leave Osman to go further forward when we have it...

Where has all the early optimism gone? COYB

With it being a Derby Moyes will not and should not play players short of match fitness this includes Oveido, Naysmith & Hitz.

Team picks itself assuming Fellaini is fit ( which it sounds like he will be).

Howard
Hibbert Jags Distin Baines
Coleman Osman Neville Mirrales
Fellaini
Jelavic

Only possible change on this will be Anichebe for Coleman/ Hibbert ( if he is deemed fit).

Not convinced about Heitinga in current form! I'm expecting Hibbert and Fellaini to be fit so I would go:

Howard
Hibbert Jagielka Distin Baines
Neville Osman
Naismith Fellaini Mirallas
Jelavic

Mucha Heitinga Oviedo Hitzlsperger Gueye Coleman Anichebe

Brian Cleveland @232

Brian, Hitz played in the 1-2 defeat versus Arsenal along with Hibbert.

There is absolutely no way we should drop Osman. He is a very good player, and not only that he is our only fit central midfielder.

And on what basis do you think Hitzelsperger is better then either him or Neville?

I last saw him when he was playing for West Ham and he didn't look like a world beater then. A couple of good goals and that was about it.

I'm worried about Neville - but even I think that his experience in a game like this, when we are short on numbers, will probably be of some use.

Play Osville, and if Fellaini isn't fit, play Naismith in behind Jelavic. Even if he's not playing well at least we can play high pressure. They're shite and if pressured well will give us the ball...

My mates view on Hitzelsperger (a Villa fan): He can shoot from distance. Otherwise very ordinary.

i.e. he's a squad player at best and he's there to fill a hole when needed and may be come and shoot from distance if we're trying to score a late goal.

No way should he start.

Juilan

You have to remember Hitzlsperger was a only a kid at Villa, he left them when he was about 22. I have no idea what he's like now but i'm sure he's a better player now.

I'm sick of people saying we'll need Neville's experience in the derby. Experience of what, not being able to pass the ball over 10 yards, not being able to tackle or head, not even being able to get close to someone to make a tackle, running into the back of players when theres no danger and giving away free kicks.

He is an awful midfielder and I would rather see a half fit Hitzlsperger playing even though I don't even know if he's good or not. Heitinga is a shit midfielder but wouldn't be worse than Neville.

If Neville plays it has to be right back or not at all, if a team bottom of the league can make him look utter shit as a midfielder like QPR did then them lot over the park will only make him look worse.

If you cast your mind back to the capitulation against Liverpool at Wembley in April you will remember that we had Neville, Osman, Fellaini and Gibson in the team. Pienaar was also unavailable on that occasion due to the fact that he was Cup tied. Neville was at right back, Gibson, Fellaini, Osman, Cahill and Gueye in Midfield. With Miralles in the team and possibly Naysmith playing some part our attacking options would appear to have been strengthened. The game will be won or lost in Midfield, Gerrard will raise his game as he does these days on the two occasions that we play them.

If we play Neville and Osman in Midfield then I expect Everton to be over-run by Gerrard, Allen and Sterling. Fellaini being fit is an outside bet, even more remote for Gibson. The only options therefore are to go with the untried Hitz, the unorthodox Heitinga or another unfamiliar combination. The omens are not looking good.

Hitzlesperger has over 50 international caps, but then again so does Neville

Heitinga is as slow if not slower than Neville, so you want to replace a slow defender in midfiled with another slow defender in midfield and that's your masterplan?

You also want to lob in a player who has been out for 8 months and hasn't played in the Premiership for a couple of years and a player that hasn't played in the Premiership period.........for the Derby.

No wonder you think Predictable Peter is right!!!! You're a nutter!

It's frankly staggering that we're 4th, with one league defeat all season, when Neville's played all but one of those games in midfield. I mean, that could only be the case if a) or other ten players are outstanding enough to perform a man down in all those games or b) Neville might actually not be the absolute liability some people claim.

Forgot Liverpool are playing tonight. Reina is still out with a hammy, and are facing Hiddink's Russian's with Eto'o in the side.

If Brad Jones continues in goal on Sunday then we got to do what we didn't do at Wembley and give some high balls for him to contend with. He's a joke.

Looks like Gerrard is playing, and he's decline is as rapid as Neville's. They're in for a tough test and a loss three days before will suit me fine.

Fingers cross Gerrard breaks his legs. Some say fans wish that on opposition layers because they're a threat. Not really, he's just a twat.

Jimmy, you're amazing. According to you, our "best possible first eleven" is one guy in dismal form, one guy you've seen play for a few minutes (and not very well) and one guy you haven't seen play at all. Every indication is that Hitz isn't even match-fit, and you just want to toss him into a derby start on the theory that he's got to be better than Neville or Osman. Ridiculous.

I'll give you credit for progress, however... you didn't mention Drenthe.

The main issue is the midfield being too light weight in every department, I think we can all agree on that.

Graham,
I never suggested dropping Osman from the team, I think he can do a decent job as an attacking midfielder, which if you remember some time ago he did his best ever job in.

IGenerally wityhout Gibson and Fellaini we are weaker, but I think we are the absolute weakest with Neville and Osman in the central midfield.

Heitinga and Hitz is the slightly better option, what matters is filling the huge hole Neville and Osman creates, and thus leaves our defenders wide open for attacks.

Heitinga has not more speed then Neville, but he does have much better strength, agility, and passing ability then Neville.

It is the total picture with Heitinga and Hitz that matters, they would most likely not be rolled over so easy as Neville and Osman does.
I have not seen Hitz here at EVerton, but there should be no doubt that Neville is out of form or just feeling the years, so Hitz will in any case be a better midfielder then Neville.

By the way Neville has never been a midfielder, but Hitz is a midfielder.

If anyone supports Neville as a defender in midfield then you have not seen our last two games and the way we were run over for most of those two games.

Hitz has signed for us so we might as well try him out and see if he fits or not.

Robin Cannon (247)
Couldn't agree more!

Last time we beat the old enemy at Goodison , Pienaar and Feliani were out of the team due to injury or suspension. 2-0 to the super blues.

Nothing to suggest naismith will start. I think he'll go for vic before him.

Somehow the moment I started reading this article without having seen the author I knew it was Jimmy Sorheim!!

As pointed out above I don't think Heitinga is any sort of an upgrade on Neville and Hitz does not strike me as palatable option either. To be honest despite his poor showing against Leeds i'd probably prefer Junior but to give him his first start him in this game would be unfair and vaguely ridiculous. Neville and Osman it is then, for lack of better alternatives.

Gerrard and Suarez starting for the RS tonight, lets hope they get clobbered.

I would go with A) Robin.

I think our team is very good albeit very thin. Neville should be nowhere near the midfield. RB is it.

Isn't it sad that years and years later we're still chirping on about Neville and how he shouldn't be a starter for our team. Everton = groundhog day.

And btw - how on earth is Gibbo still out??

A thigh strain?? People come back from ligament surgery faster than him? Seems quite the slow healer

Just a little stat from the programme for the QPR game. The highest percentage of pass completion for us this season has been Neville and Osman. Incidentally the highest percentage for tackles was Osman also.

Will Moyes solve our midfield problem?
Christ he's had over 10 years to do it!

I always want us to win the derby but this time I'm desperate for us to win I just feel like there is so much riding on this game. I think it could give is a big lift and spur the team on to go on a good run until January were we can hopefully bring in a strong centre mid.

I agree in some respects with Jimmy I don't think Neville and Osman can continue in the middle, I have a lot of respect for Neville and think he brings a lot to the team in terms of organising and encouraging but he's not physically fit enough alongside Osman to carry the middle, I think he'd be ok with Gibson or Fellaini but the two of them together will get found out against better opponents in the prem. Hopefully Fellaini will be fit and we will have the option to play him in the middle or up top.

I think Mirallas has been ineffective in the last two games and owes us a good performance got a feeling he will bag a goal, fingers crossed Everton 2 shite 0.

I doubt if he will play Fellaini even if he is technically available. Adding Heitinga to midfield would only give us a more defensive posture when we actually have to take the game to Liverpool and attack. Giving Hitzlsperger his first start in a derby would be very unlike Moyes, especially if, as has been said, he is not fully match fit. What we need is for the players we do have available to step up. Play Naismith, with the mission of feeding Jelavic. They surely know what derby pressure is like. And send that useless twat Anichebe to the Tesco's in Runcorn on a 90 minute errand. Anywhere but on the field at kick-off time.

Jimmy

You just don't start with 3 players in a derby who haven't played together before, nor played at all in the positions you're talking about. Pure suicidial !!

@Christopher (256) - I actually think it's arguable whether - if everyone is fit - Neville *is* an automatic starter for the team any more. What I think he is, however, is a reliable but uninspiring replacement for full-back or defensive midfield positions.

I still wonder a little if Fellaini's exceptional performances in a more advanced role in the first couple of games of the season haven't changed how Moyes intended to use him. The signings we made; Naismith, Mirallas and Pienaar in particular, were all attacking midfield type options. It would seem logical to me that the intention may have been to have Fellaini/Gibson as the central midfield pairing, with a combination of Naismith/Mirallas/Pienaar/Osman supporting Jelavic up front.

It was (clearly) worth utilizing Fellaini in a more advanced role against United/Villa, both missing commanding central defenders - that would be good tactical flexibility. But it still feels odd that having him be there permanently almost sees us top-loaded with attacking midfielders and lacking defensive midfield cover.

Oh, and just for Jimmy - at least we're not missing Drenthe, next coming of Pele though we was...

"Our last two games has been drab and quite opposite of what we started this season with. The problem, as everybody but Moyes can see, is that Neville drags the overall quality of our midfield down to that of a relegation team."

The problem with that statement Jimmy is that Neville has been an ever-present in midfiels this season.

Heitinga? No — Has never been a midfielder... but then again neither has Neville!

Oviedo? Yes — I liked him against Leeds; in a team that was performing like they had concrete in their boots, he showed some pace and flair.

Hitzlsperger? Who knows — We have no idea what level of fitness this fella is at! He could still be a long way from the first team.

It sounds to me like Fellaini will be fit. So I reckon we put him at centre mid and give Naismith or Anichebe a chance in 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2.

Anichebe has been around Everton a long time and knows what the derby is all about. Naismith has played enough old firm games to understand. Without Gibson, I can't see Neville being dropped, especially for a derby

No vic unless he's up top. So sub for him then.

Yet more absolute nonsense drivel spouted by Evertonians loving to ignore those pesky facts.

Neville turns over possession does he? Care to find any stats or evidence of any sort to back that up? It simply doesn't happen.

We've absolutely dominated games, from front to back and especially midfield, with Neville and Osman in there.

How many times do we have to have the same argument and say the same things? Sorry fellas, but do you remember the Swansea game? The Newcastle first half? Southampton? All done with Neville and Osman in the centre of midfield. Have you read the stats about Everton having more shots than any other team in Europe? All done with Neville and Osman in our midfield.

"Right now that means Neville, Osman and Pienaar out, Heitinga, Hitzlsperger, and Oveido in."

I've been on this website a long time, so I have read more stupid things than this in the past, but this is right up there.

I agree Robin and wrote a post a few weeks back asking everyone's opinion on what we should do with the captaincy if everyone came back healthy (because like you, feel we are better without him in the side). Unfortunately it wasn't published so we never got to hash it out and see people's opinion.

That's the issue we have and why we need Jags (or Bainesy) to take the band.

If Neville could at least play defense and not hacksaw people to death, then we could have a debate about his qualifications in the holding role. The problem is he's 35 and just isn't quick anymore and therefore is often times late for the tackle and puts his team in trouble. He's a horrendous distributor, can't beat a man and has scored 3 Premier League goals since 2005. We've seen it in other sports where athletes stay too long and it becomes a charade or even embarrassing (or they need the money; which is even more embarrassing) – it's not quite there with him (esp. at RB) but for God's sake man please Moyesy show him upstairs to the management office.

Mike

We've only beat one good team so far and that was Utd. We have done well so far this season but we don't need 11 players playing out of their skin to beat the likes of Southampton. You make out we can't afford to carry players to get results against inferior teams. We can and we have.

I'm always nervous about playing the RS, regardless of form and this game is no exception. But I do think there is way more riding on the outcome than a rather low key build up suggests. We have lost momentum, the great start is stalling and points at Wigan and QPR, albeit deserved, were of the hard fought variety, not the quality attacking play we saw against Utd, Villa, Swansea etc. it's not a crisis of course but a bad result on Sunday will I think set us back a long way. So that question about midfield really does need answering effectively.

Given the importance I've attached to a good result I guess I shouldn't suggest gambling ? But if Fellani is fit and up for it, I'd hope to see the power and creativity that is our left midfield continued by taking a risk.....and playing Baines ahead of Oviedo. I think the latter should now be up to at least three quarters of the derby at full throttle and we could revert if needed. But Bainsey wide left is exciting and will give the RS plenty to think about, with an added bonus of bolstering the counter to Sterlings runs when going down the right. Crazy ? Possibly, but it could be a spark, something edgy and could throw the opposition.

I can't see how you can argue that Neville hasn't been poor in the last couple of games, yet the Daily Mirror had him as "outstanding" against Rangers, clearly they were at another game. I like the skipper, a lot, he's been good for us and is an impressive leader...surely a manager in the future...but he's slipping badly now and is badly exposed in midfield. Gibsons return will sort things soon but for Sunday I'm hoping Phil is at right back and Heitinga the one sitting in front of the back four, with the job of stopping Gerrard. Osman will play and Mirallas should start wide right ?

If Felli doesn't make it then I'm thinking Naismith will be the one to step up. Suddenly it's all feeling a bit less "strong" and Piennars miss really is a big one, but we have to better than that lot of crap.

For all those trumpeting the pass completion statistics for Phil Neville against QPR - did you actually watch the game? If you did then you should have noticed how many were short range and to the likes of Coleman, Jagielka or Distin, ie. not constructive and pointless at times.

To be fair to him, I am sure that keeping it simple and safe is pretty much what he is asked to do but it hardly makes him indispensible.

We have not 'absolutely dominated' ALL our games so far this season when we have relied on Osman and Neville, and in a few games (especially since the loss of Gibson) our midfield has been distinctly second-best for extended periods. Despite their poor start to the season, you can bet that the RS will be expecting their midfield to dominate a CM pairing of Osman and Neville.

What is the solution for Sunday? That is a bloody difficult question to answer given doubts about fitness and availability, but anything that stops Gerrard from cruising in the centre of the park whilst still giving us multiple attacking options would get my vote. If the manager can't find fourteen players to make this happen from what he currently has available, then we need some more excellent business from him in January.

This is the team I think Moyes will play:

Howard,
Hibbert, Jags, Distin, Baines, Coleman,
Neville, Osman, Mirallas,
Fellaini and Jelavic.

Myself personally I would replace Neville for Gibson if fit; if not, Naismith and move Fellaini back. I think Coleman will play right mid to give us a bit more solid look.

Do we have any youngsters good enough to hold down a midfield place, if not why not? After 10 years of absolute control Moyes has not produced a single home produced youngster for those positions. That fact is an indictment of Moyes and his hand-picked back room staff.

A few bright stars flickered briefly across the scene only to fade from sight. We are left to ponder who to play in our crucially important defensive midfield roles and not one candidate is really good enough for the job.

In defiance of TW conventions I dare to draw comparison with the other lot across the park. There we see a club that was massively in debt, split from top to bottom by internal strife, three different boards, 5 managers, wholesale disruption to coaching, scouting and backroom staff yet still able to produce a conveyor belt of good youngsters.

From our standpoint I can only wonder where has it all gone wrong? Cue for the anti BK army?

Dick, Rodwell? But then do Utd? Do City? Chelsea? The list gets longer.

Not sure why Moyes being in charge for ten years should mean different results to say three to five managers over the same period.

Nick @ 302, Teenagers that have passed through Moyes hands were barely out of the cradle when they were scouted. In most cases whatever it was that caught the eye in those days did not come to fruition. All I ask is why is that so?

Heitinga may be a better passer and tackler actually, but his positional sense is awful in midfield. He just drifts in and out there. Neville does this too, but to a lesser extent, probably because he's play for a few years for us and Man Utd. They're both not great but Neville's the better option.

I wouldn't drop Osman out of the team for a while until we get a new centre mid. Hitz could be the man, but he's what only played 2 reserve games since a horrible injury, then chuck him into a derby? Doesn't that sound stupid?

I agree they may look a little lightweight, but Osman and Neville are our best option whilst Gibson is injured, and whilst Fellaini's playing well further forward. It's not as if they've played badly all the time, we've won games when they're in the team, and played well with them too.

The reality is stick with them until Gibson is back, and then when hopefully in Jan we can get somebody else. But until then, we should stop moaning, stick with them, support them, not call Neville and Osman crap, and hope they have awesome games in the derby.

Dick, you only have to see what happens to talented youngsters at Everton, They are told to wait, wait wait, then they're put out on loan to the some team of stiffs where training consists of running around the touchline ten times. Instead of developing their talent we develop their fitness. Then they are told to wait another couple of seasons. This is why Rodwell couldn't get out fast enough. This is why Barkley will follow him. This is why Vellios will probably go too.This is why we end up starting players like Anichebe while losing real talent elsewhere.

"Real talent", Jack? What "real talent", Jack? Who did we lose that tears at your heartstrings so terribly? Look around the league and point out all the "talent" that Everton produced and is now starring elsewhere. I'll have a long and peaceful wait. Maybe a nap.

Fact is that outside of Rooney, whom we had no chance of keeping at the time, there is none. I remember all the outrage when Gosling was lost. He's been a complete washout with the barcodes. Vaughn? 13 goals in three years since his departure... now dazzling at Huddersfield. Chadwick? Clarke? Never heard from again. And Rodwell? Well, let's just gently say he hasn't impressed so far at City... and right now it looks like we got a prime rib price for flank steak.

Moyes' judgement on young talent has been pretty much spot on so far... and when he lets them go, he gets it right. Ask Drenthe... when you see him playing in the park somewhere.

Dick #300 "yet still able to produce a conveyor belt of good youngsters"

should read, 'but still able to BUY a conveyor belt of good youngsters'

Mike funny that you mention those 13 goals for Vaughan since he left Everton three years ago, Anichebe has only scored 11 since 2008 and he's still here!

Moyes will not move Neville unless it is to go to FB and push Coleman forward. In football terms Neville is... dead man walking, his legs have gone and only his nouse is allowing him to function at the barest minimum.

I wrote on another thread that so long as Villa and Shamptn are only asking midfield questions that require one word answers we will get by. Anything more than 2 + 2 = 4 and we are in shitstreet.

Hitz; he must have had some basic fitness prior and he has been here 4-5 weeks so you would think that a 4-5 'pre-season' will have done him some good.

A 75% fit Hitz MUST be a better bet than Neville at least for an hour... and he can't be short of a bit of nouse with all those caps for the Germans.

Hopefully Moyes can pull out a plum à la playing Hibbo at CB vs City... AND have it work.

Who I expect the manager to start with:

Howard
Hibbert Distin Jags Baines
Coleman Neville Fell/Gibson Osman
Mirallas
Jelavic

High octane stuff and a one-nil victory!

I have written before that I look at Neville as our liability: his timing is woeful, his passing is woeful. What passes he makes are sideways and back, putting players under pressure. The clown does not know how to move forward 10 yards with the ball. The other lot must be hoping he is there on Sunday, this will give them belief that they will have an easy day.

Give Hitzlsperger a go, he can t be any worse, even for an hour. I don't expect Moyes to drop Neville – he never does, he loves him – just like he should have dropped Cahill in his last few games... and Saha, but he won't.

Oh and expect Vic to start, another of Moyes's favourites. Bloody frustrating... Moyes is so blinkered.

Has Royston Drenthe signed a contract with anyone?

Perhaps he could do a job in the middle, Jimmy?

Drew,

After many months that wound seemed finally to have healed. Did you have to pick the scab off?

Although I agree that Neville as a player is probably past it, he's still a good captain. When things are going against us, the players can easily give up the ghost; however, with Neville on the pitch, he's constantly at them, urging them on.

Saying that, I wouldn't pick him for this game but that's only if Moyes is gonna go for it — fill the team with confidence and not fill them with an inferior attitude against Liverpool.

Paul 353, maybe Osman will dominate in midfield??

Because he is a regular in Moyes formations, and never really shone against the shite.

Tony, it hasn't healed at all. Jimmy posted another Drenthe rant last week under a different topic on TW.... something about how Moyes drove him off and he was happy to leave.

Gavin, I just said Moyes always gets it right on the ones he lets go. I didn't say he always gets it right on the ones he keeps.

We had a good batch in Rooney, Dunne, Ball, Rodwell, Hibbert, Osman and Jeffers, that could have been a fair backbone of a side over the last 10 years and would have championed our youth policy.

Apart from Ronaldo how many players has Fergie had to sell compared to us? Scholes, Beckham etc existed because Man Utd could keep them together, whereas we consider all reasonable bids.