We might get relegated or fight it every year but at least we'll beat the shite once a season.

Martinez has kept a small club with low wage bill and turnover in the prem for several years playing attractive attacking football. He has managed considerably less years in the prem but won exactly the same amount of trophies as Moyes.

I haven't seen it.

I've seen them struggle to score goals every season and concede loads.

Ignoring the arrogance of his contract stance we know what we'll get – survival (challenging for Europe if you must) and no trophies.

Amid the mind numbing stuff he does with his undertakers approach making Goodison as exciting as a mortuary it MUST be time for a change, even relegation battles have the merit of passion.

The upside is we JUST might improve.....y'know – beat liverpool, get a victory at the old Sky 4 – win stuff! ACTUALLY WIN STUFF! perish the thought.

So, Martinez has Wigan play attractive football?

I bet their fans really enjoyed the attractive football they served up today against the shite. Remind me when did Moyes ever lose 4 - 0 at home to the shite?

How about Wigan's 35 wins in 142 Premier League Games since Roberto winder took over? Some track record to get excited about there.

Or the overall goal difference of minus 105 in those 142 games?

Can't wait until he takes over from 'Gollum' as the glory days will surely return once he brings this record to bear at Everton?

Just seems a sure fire way of diminishing the fan base older guys like me support because Everton as an institution are great and we've seen the trophies and players to prove it. What tales of derring do will the next generation have?

I grant you he does seem to encourage his teams to play decent football but Wigan are fragile and inconsistent as a result....as likely to get tonked by anybody as they are to win the odd game. That's why they are perennial relegation battlers.

With no better resources (in fact possibly less resources than Wigan have) Moyes has built a series of teams that have been up there challenging the best for most of the seasons he's been here. I am not one of those who believes Moyes is the answer to every Evertonian's dreams but give a little credit where credit is due.

The only trophies clubs like ourselves and Wigan can ever hope to win the way the game is at present are the two domestic cups. Our record in the league cup is abysmal but it has been abysmal for decades, long before Moyes came so he is not solely to blame for that. When we got to the FA Cup final in 2009 we had the most difficult journey of any of the semi-finalists to get there and then found ourselves without three key players in the final because of injury, Arteta, Jagielka and Yakubu. With them available we could well have won that game and won a cup. Winning a cup often takes lots of luck. Swansea had loads of it this year....we had none in 2009.

Get a little fucking perspective. I don't envy Wigan their manager although I think he's a decent guy. If he'd have been here for ten years like Moyes we might be in the same parlous state Wigan are in in the league now....or worse!

Do you seriously think Martinez has got an easier job than Moyes? The fact he has to try to convert the Pie Eating Rugby lot to Soccer is a task in itself. Wigan's gate has gone from 3,000 a few years ago to 15,000 now. It must be soul destroying knowing that, despite all your hard work, 15k gates and apathy is all you can expect from your efforts

.Give Martinez a big job and you would see the difference he would make. Everton fans would embrace the football ethos Marty would bring and and the quality of the man might shine through.

Then again, Moyes will deliver the goods each season now matter how poor the end product is. Do you really not care how unpleasing on the eye we actually are? Don't you want to be entertained? Can you stomach more dreary years of Dynamo Dave?... I know I can't.

We might just WIN STUFF!

Might we?

We have only won stuff once since 1987. One fucking trophy in 26 bleeding years!

So is Moyes's 11 years responsible for that? Like most managers, Moyes has won fuck all but the last manager we had who did win something is now an old man.

But I suppose it is all Moyes's fault hey?

Moyes can seem naive at times and his stubbornness can be frustrating in the extreme but the one thing you cannot argue with is that he has set Everton up as a team that consistently challenges the money boys. If you want to blame Moyes for winning fuck all then feel free but to be fair to him there is a fucking long list of managers since 1987 except for Big Joe against whom you would have to lay the same charge....but without the mitigation that we now have..... a decent team that like it or not DOES punch well above its financial weight and which we have not had for a very long time.

That is down to Moyes.

Whether it not Martinez is the man is a different question, I actually think he's a terrific manager and I judge him from seeing his Swansea side play a few times that's it but I found it inspiring and I like him

But if you think going on like this helps replace the aging fanbase you're wrong.

Should we want more than Moyes delivers? Of course it goes without saying. Sadly I am not convinced by Martinez, Lambert or any other no mark floating around the English league. Moyes has his faults, it will finish this summer I have no doubt, and we will get a new manager that serves up new shit that ain't good enough to ring Champions League music at the old lady, nor a trophy. We might get a win away from home at the Sky 4, perhaps that will make some happy.

Where do you get the idea that Martinez would have less to work with at Everton than he has at Wigan? Isn't it an established fact that our wage bill is about double that of Wigan's?

Unless we somehow have double the number of players, that equates to an awful lot more ability to attract players of the quality to compete in the EPL. Then there is the possibility that Martinez could get a little bit more out of the players we currently have (first team regulars, fringe players and the emerging talents).

The Liverpool urban area, if you include the Birkenhead urban area (which it is sensible to do) is something like the fifth biggest in the UK (around the same size as the Glasgow urban area). There may be bigger ones but to call it 'middling' seems well over the top.

After Martinez was put forward as a potential successor should DM decide not to sign a new contract with us, it was only a matter of time before some people seized on a poor Wigan performance to denigrate the man. Fair enough, Wigan have some very suspect defenders (Gary Caldwell anyone?) but this result against the RS needs to be put into perspective. Wigan apparently had the majority of the possession and more attempts on goal. Pepe Reina made a few brilliant saves and they finished their own chances very clinically (apart from the flukey deflected free kick).

As Barry says, Coutinho looks rather good and we haven't faced him yet. Wigan beat Reading 3-0, so lets wait until we have comfortably knocked them out of the FA Cup before we start rubbing our hands at the prospect of playing Rodger's shower.

I'm hoping it will be third time lucky and we get to celebrate going to Wembley direct from Goodison – which I don't think we've ever done, but I am realistic enough to think we could make a mess of it and may have to replay at Wigan, which is alright if we win through in the end, but it would be far better to win it at the first attempt.

Trophies 1; Average league position 14th.

Moyes,11 seasons: Trophies none; Average league position 7.5th.

A duff manager? Bollocks!

Get bloody real will some of you!

Can you gloat on TW about what is essentially a good result for the RS?
Is that a question you really require an answer to???

Normally when this is suggested the indignancy goes off the scale, what say you?

Instead, the reality is that we have consistently punched above our weight (as Dave Roberts has asserted) over the whole of Moyes reign.

I'm not talking about odd matches here and there because to judge teams in that context is, frankly, ridiculous. I'm measuring it over the course of entire seasons and on that measure then there are very few teams who have consistently done better than us over the past 10 years. When you factor in money our achievements are even more impressive.

Of course I would like to revert to the days when we had the money, when we could afford to break transfer records etc but we are so far away from that now... and yet I'm not really sure this uncomfortable fact has dawned on many on this site. What I mean by that is that there appears to be an unrealistic level of expectation in certain quarters in terms of what we can achieve.

It's fine to talk of the glory days, to revere the history of the club, even to love the club, but that doesn't win matches or cups now.

When I think of the shit that I used to watch at Goodison in the 70s, early 80s and 90s, we are a million miles better than that now and that can only be down to Moyes.

We have had an excellent season, considering our resources – I hope that we can push on and end with something memorable.

COYB!

What you are saying is that given more money by BK than all his predecessors got from whoever, Moyes has done a crap job. Really, I`ve always been led to believe that BK is a mean bugger. You can`t have it both ways!

1. He gave younger players the same leeway he affords senior pros.

2. He stops the team dropping off as soon as we get ahead.

3. He smiles more.

4. He gets rid of Round and reveals the man on the other end of that earpiece.

5. He appoints me as Head Coach and defers management of the first team.

My favourite stat is the inability to record a win away from home at the Sky 4. Yes you can take a stat and make it into a nice shiny turd. Its still a turd when all is said and done.

I was thinking about this with the Oldham replay as I'd read many years ago that at Goodison we need an attendance of 35,000 to break even. Is this still the case? Last seasons average was less than that which could partly explain the increase in losses for the year.

I think Moyes is a very upstanding man and great "team builder". his tactics and lack of developing youth (IMO) are abhorrent.

Martinez is, again IMO, the replacement for Moyes. He's done very well at Wigan. he prefers total football. He can work on a budget. He's an upstanding man that will represent any Club well.

Despite the fact that about once a week I'd like to kick Moyes in the balls I hope he doesn't leave. IF he leaves I hope we get Martinez.

Does that make any sense?

Martinez's brilliance is yet another fabrication of this country's sub-mediocre press. I was really hoping that Liverpool would take him last summer.

I cannot understand this love in with a man who not only has never won anything but consistently presides over a relegation battle.

Today was a prime example.

Plenty of skill but no organization nor team spirit the very things a good manager is supposed to instil.

I think we need a mature experienced manager who can calm the players down and istil confidence.

Someone like Hiddick or Ancelloti but would they work under Billy Bullshits modus operandi.

I would sooner have Nigel Adkins and thats a step down too.

I jump in the car to go get milk and we have another thread dedicated to Martinez. As I said, and now can't find anywhere....

Paul -

Martinez's side may resemble "shapeless" as the do have a tendency to ru around like headless chickens. But "thuggish" and "ugly"? No way.

He tries like hell to play proper football. His constraints with a crap side and no money limit him. He'd do well with Everton IMO.

He's an upstanding man and tries to play the game properly. IF Moyes leaves - and I hope he doesn't but honestly with this contract dithering I think he's off at the end of the season - I hope Martinez replaces him.

I've said it many times before. I'd prefer to watch an exciting side that finishes 14th than watch the same old thing.... Old dudes in positions that don't suit them finishing 7th or "best of the rest".

Give me something to get excited about. Bring in Barkley, Duffy, Vellios, Baxter, Akpan, et al and bring them into the first team....

I get none of that with Moyes. I get reliable, 7th place don't pull a muscle reaching for the brass ring Moyes.

Again, I like Moyes and hope he doesn't leave. But life without him isn't as bleak as I think many think it would be. And Martinez would be a superb replacement, a good manager given the chance at a MUCH larger club in Everton.

The Ball is, for once, in Moyes's court.

BPBy won't – can't sack him. If Moyes says sod this for a game of solders, It's all moot.

You couldn't make it up

The Moyes out Brgade have, with one leap, turned into

tada

In Martinez We Trust

And vice versa the old style IMWT have started on a courus of Oh no, it's Selwyn Froggit

Nice one our Martinez.

A horrible manager, queue the defence from some because of okacha and co. I would also insist on a translator. I can't stand that accent.

By the way, all the arguments regarding Moyes successor are pointless, he will sign his new contract well before the end of the season. Depending on how low the early bird season ticket renewals fall, my guess is he will sign in the next 3-4 weeks. "I have got unfinished business here........." etc etc.

Solskjaer has that winning mentality I like and he is very good with youngsters which we need.
Solskjaer has won the league in Norway twice in a row and there seems to be nothing stopping him.

Most likely Kenwright will fuck up and pick Martinez which is a huge mistake as he just is not good enough.

Besides keeping Moyes I can see few other managers better then him, but Bilic and Solskaer are two managers I think could do well here.

Martinez performs where he should, near the bottom, which over the last 3 years is at least consistent. Football is about having compartively the best resources, something I bet he had at Swansea and is starved at Wigan. Well if he comes here, I am sure bill will lavish nothing but lovey air.

But it is all irrelevant.

Nothing will change until Kenwright goes. No manager can make a difference to Everton while our Chairman retains control and fails or refuses to find any kind of money to back the team.

Sort that problem first. Or we will forever be Plucky Little Everton.

1. He gets the sack (can't see this happening to David Moyes)
2. He snatches it in frustration (must have a few bob in the bank, be totally cheesed off in the job - aka ready for a new challenge, and thinks his prospects for getting another job are pretty good) ??? (I did that once).
3. He gets an offer he can't refuse. (Possible).

As an Evertonian some of David Moyes decisions, tactics and substitutions have driven me to distraction over the years, but In my opinion the football his team was producing at the beginning of the season was comparable with the Everton teams of the sixties.

As fans I think we have to acknowledge that David Moyes was responsible for that. I don't know what has gone wrong since the begiining of the season but I expected a much better performance at Old Trafford. Maybe it was down to the injuries and Fellaini's suspension or maybe it was the January transfer window.

in frustration I posted after the Norwich game that I thought it was "time for a change". He might just feel like that also. For sure, If Moyes does go at the end of the season it will be a scenario 2 or 3 situation.

If he does go, I don't think Martinez is the "right fit" for Everton. I would ask Robert Di Matteo if he was interested.

Martinez has a safe job because his club have moderate goals. I really hope that they stay up.

DM is managing a big city club with top flight history to match any other club. Our goals should be much higher than Wigan's but Dave Whelan puts our board to shame. He alone is worth ALL our multi-millionnaire board members who never use their own money to invest in EFC. By comparison Wigan on a gate of less than 20,000 and no aspirations of winning trophies are a credit to their town. I just hope (and pray) that they don't embarrass us on the 9th.

Everton are no longer at that end of the table, Wigan still are. Both teams have a net spend of fuck all. Remind me again how this makes Martinez a better manager than Moyes?

How on earth some gullible people allow our board to get away with crying poverty beats me.
We are reputedly the 26th wealthiest club and STILL shop at Poundland.

I am wholeheartedly sick of the mismanagement and hope that the fans divert the negative comments towards them and not give them excuses that they don't merit.

People have lost it over Moyes forgetting what he's here to do and it really isn't drifting around the top of the also rans at 7th or 8th without a sniff of a trophy eternally. It seems Kenwrights propaganda has seeped succesfully into too many, the old idea of at least competing against EVERYONE and god forbid actually winning stuff has been excused away.

The 2 puncture marks on your neck might be missing but you know you've been drained of ambition when the bizarre activity of denigrating clubs like Swansea who break the mold and win something and attacking little Wigan Athletic from the rugby league heartland is irresistible.

How their heroics in genuinely defying the odds is not inspirational to our club defies analysis. The escape tricks of Wigan led by Martinez despite Whelan pulling the plug spending-wise and continually selling their best each year is extraordinary.

The defence of Moyes by attacking all and sundry on skewed evidence has taken on 17th century witch-finding proportions it's a complete loss of perspective.

Moyes did his thing for a few years on the back of Rooney then come to a dead stop. There is NOTHING newsworthy about this Everton absolutely nothing other than the longevity of Moyes time in the job. Needing something, anything, to crow about fans have freakishly grasped this like tin foil hat wearers talking about crop circles.

Sheer madness, we all know our circumstances they ain't gonna change so unless spine trembling fear rules your life the only possible way forward is to change the manager. For me Martinez but seeing how Laudrup came from nowhere ditto Lambert and Rodgers in recent years it really doesn't matter it's gonna be a gamble - just NOT someone like Moyes!

Who would you like to see replace Moyes?

Moyes on the other hand was given Rooney and didn't have to sell - chalk and cheese.

So all the figures prove Moyes has stabilised the Club and seen us improve our average finish from 14th-ish to 7th-ish over the last decade. Well done, David, now do us a favour and move over for someone of greater vision-and charisma-to take us up to 4thish.

Is Martinez the man to do this? I don`t think so,but that`s just my opinion. Laudrup could do it. And I`d have some hope that Mackay and even Atkins would make a good fist of it.

But, hey, it`s Blue Bill who`d have to `sell` the club to them and we all know he ain`t very good at that! For all his posturing I still think we`re stuck with Davey the Seventh(-ish)!

Moyes didn't have to sell?!?!?!? Seriously, you think Everton didn't have to sell Rooney?

They, in my opinion, are the ones holding this club back. Moyes has ambition, but it seems the Board do not share the same ambitions. My anger is directed at them.

Until we get in a relegation scrap no-one will protest and there's no sign of them changing anytime soon, so what do we do plod aimlessly along for another 10 years?

Like it or not Moyes is part of the board problem, remember he thinks Kenwright is fantastic!!

An interesting perspective that Barry. I must have missed that constant money tap Moyes has received over the last 4 years.

I don't agree of course because it's clearly wrong ... but I admire your audacity.

If Wigan got to 12th in the league then you could say he's doing a great job. But they are awful.

Remember Tony Mowbray. Everyone thought he was great. Tried to play good footy, stuck to his guns, etc etc etc. Fact is his team was shit and other managers did better with the same team.

People critize Moyes for having no Plan B; well, Martínez is even more one-dimensional and predictable. A big No! We need someone with substance then style.

He has averaged 7th in eleven years, he is in the top five bracket of wages paid to managers and I'm sure our wage bill is roughly around about the seventh position.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me we spend for we're we average finish, so he's done an okay job, nothing more, nothing less.

All those people claiming Martinez has Wigan playing relegation football need to look at the stats, Wigan finish roughly where their wages dictate as do we.

If Martinez was to join us I think our football would continue along the lines Moyes has developed. Where I'd be hopeful of improvement would be the use of our younger players and within the transfer market itself. The 62 million would be put to better use and as a result our squad would improve, I'm hoping he'd get more out the money available.

I'm a Moyes out person but every so often I think no he should stay, usually when we play well and win but the situation over his contract and the fact we always bottle the big game says enough is enough. I hope we win the cup and then Moyes leaves...but he'll probably stay won't he!

Barry is right that every passing year of no success and a decaying stadium, makes us smaller, a relic of the past. A poker all in approach, shit or bust perhaps is the way forward. Short term pain, for long term gain. Fuck it makes me bitter.

The clubs directly above Everton (and one below) have exponentially more money.

The teams directly above Wigan, not so much.

We've hit the glass ceiling. Wigan, by no means expected to be up with Everton, do not show anything that reflects the ability of having a top class manager.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/the-premier-league-wage-v-position-table-who-is-over-performing-under-performing/

Our manager has been here a very long time comparatively speaking, working under strict financial constraints and done extremely well given his resources. That cannot be denied. He has also hugely stabalised our club. Another fact that can't be denied.

You can't expect the manager to get a team that cost very little (in relative terms) to play like Barcelona every week, and with such a small squad they're not worn out, and that is not the players fault, or indeed the managers fault - its the fault of the board who have not helped with cash to build a bigger squad.

Would any of these issues go away with a new manager? No, or course not. That said, Roberto Martinez is the man for the job, for a number of reasons and none of them in my opinion are good reasons, but they ARE reasons.

First of all, what big name manager would want to come to Everton? Where's the incentive? We don't have any money, we're never in the CL, we are highly unlikely to win anything with our squad - show me the management carrot? Martinez is likely to be our next manager because he won't get offered anything bigger at this stage of his career, and we can't attract anyone bigger then him, so we fit each other. Wigan is also not that far from Liverpool so he wouldn't have to move far (presumably), and Everton are a bigger club than Wigan.

Is he the answer to EFC's prayers? No he isn't, but he is just about out only sensible option. Otherwise it's Mark Hughes or Steve Bruce and quite frankly that would be even more terrifying.

Given that our board continues to only vaguely support the manager, in my opinion, nothing is going to change with a new manager in charge other than to create a period of instability where players leave, and the club drops down a level to mid-table mediocrity again for a few years.

Moyes should be thanked hugely for giving 11 years of sterling service under a board that has shirked its responsibility, and for making us able to hold our heads up as the best we can be given our situation, I will thank him.

I would also add Martinez plays his football, teams know what to expect and can set up to counter. Other teams around their wage budget are newbies to the league, the fact Martinez is able to keep Wigan in the league is impressive in itself and shouldn't be ignored.

A top class manager? Until we have readies to spend on wages and purchases I doubt we'll see a top class manager walk through our doors any time soon.

You can't change the board without someone to buy them out and going downhill isn't the way.

We can afford a Frank Rijkaard or the like and would have a better chance of the former and a buy out.

He's taken a club backwards and avoiding relegation isn't pedigree. That isn't even punching above weight.

My hope, and it is only that, is if he comes then with the players at his disposal and players he can attract then we will push on from what Moyes has achieved.

The question in my mind is could we have achieved the same number of points season after season with a different manager in tow, I think so, but many others disagree. I don't think that a club of Everton's stature is overachieving I think it is just where it should be given the formula as laid out above.

My choice to replace Moyes would be Steve Clarke. His wage bill is £20 million less than ours, he has the same transfer budget as us. His team are 5 points behind us.

Cue the posters who like to use wage bills as an excuse for our failure to threaten teams above us "He has only done it for one season".

Are we all part of the TW "brigade"? I don't think so.

Actually, what would be the collective noun for ToffeeWebbers? A school? A congregation? Surely not a gaggle or a drove? Perhaps a pride? My vote goes to "A bevy of ToffeeWebbers"

I think its unfair to compare Martinez's preformance with Wigan against Moyes with Everton. Martinez has had even less cash than Moyes to play around with and its not as if Moyes set the world on fire with his managerial performance at Preston NE before he came to us. Personally, I'm neither pro nor against Martinez - will wait until Moyes has actually gone before getting my hopes up and speculating on who the new manager may or may not be.

On another note, was interested to hear that Laudrup is on 500k a year at Swansea. 4m a year for Moyes still worth it, or does that seem a touch over priced in todays market?

I recently watch a united vid which highlighted their training methods, all of the coaches state the same thing, the better the player the more consistent they are. The decision making is what separates players at the top level. To me this is where the wages debate is important, Wigan pay peanuts and as a result they can only attract a certain quality of player.

I don't see how the Martinez myth is bust when he's not had the resources other managers have had and currently enjoy. When/if he gets his chance then we can judge him, not before.

My concern would be that he's exactly the type that Kenwright would go for if/when Moyes moves on.

I want to see more ambition than that.

Judging by many posts - a "murder" of Twebbers?

Wigan will be relegated, he is based in the North-West, and will leave with his Chairman's blessing. If any new man is backed with the money for player wages as Moyes is, you would have to be pretty shit to see us finish in the bottom half - let's not forget, we have a second choice centre-half on 60 grand a week.

The thing everyone conveniently forgets, is that there is no pressure when you are the manager of Everton, keep us in the League is the only brief any manager starts the job with.

Martinez at Everton wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. We'd be just the same as we are now with a well respected young manager that doesn't really achieve much and doesn't play the most attractive football.

Should work out nicely for Kenwright though, as Martinez is another good patsy for him to play with.

We have quite a few quality players with one or two misfiring at the moment so what would Martinez be able to do with our squad? Would he become ultra defensive and bottle big games? Moyes's first priority is always 40 points and then to push on from there.

I watch the team and always feel it is being constrained by the master tactician and sometimes all is requires is a 'go for it, devil may care attitude'. We only ever see this when his hand is forced, eg, the Villa game.

I think a new manager will breathe new life into the club and can build on the Moyes legacy. Sometimes change is hard, a lot of people believe we will go back wards and get relegated once Moyes goes. If he stays, there are no guarantees he can continue to do what he does and ensure we maintain Premier League status.

Now I'm not a big Martinez fan & I have no leaning towards him as a potential future Everton manager but.....seriously? You would take play dough face over him?

To knock the guy because he has Wigan surviving in the premier league by the skin of their teeth is like knocking Jeremy Beadle for struggling to hold a litre bottle in his munchkin sized right mitt. It's just the way things naturally are when you're dealt such a shitty hand.

Steve Bruce had the luxury of working under Dave Whelan when he was still enthused enough to sink his own cash into his vanity project. Martinez has had to work under a tighter budget, whilst continually flogging his better players in order to reduce debt.

This is a fact the Wigan supporters seem to appreciate...

""He is a visionary. He has revolutionised Wigan Athletic off the field. If you look back to the days of Steve Bruce and Paul Jewell there was the annual fight to stay in the premier league and the club was successful in achieving this aim. But the wage bill was rising, the club was making a hefty loss year on year and there was no emphasis on developing young talent. The club’s survival became pinned to Dave Whelan’s subsidies and sales of players because the wage bill was huge and there was no nurturing of talent. Not a single young player made it through into the first team in this period in the EPL – the last one being Leighton Baines. Under Martinez the wage bill has been brought under control, a much larger emphasis has been put on the nurturing of talent and now if you watch Wigan play at any level there is a consistency in playing style and tactics that is absent from the bulk of British football. Rather than disappearing without trace, young Wiganers are increasingly seen out on loan in the Football league and more and more of them will make it in the game, even if not at the highest level. One of the key reasons why he stayed in the summer was securing a long-neglected investment in academy facilities to promote the emphasis on sustainable development. This will take time, but already we are seeing the benefits and if Wigan are relegated it will be a lot less scary than it would have been a few years ago."

What has Martinez ever won either at Swansea or Wigan.

His successors at Swansea achieved more and his predecessors at Wigan achieved higher placings.

His side yesterday looked disorganized and dispirited both of which the manager has a big effect on.

I would much prefer we went for a mature experienced manager such as Ancelloti or Hiddink who might just be tempted back to the Premiership despite the conditions at Everton.

The same will happen to Duffy probably very soon because kids can't get a game!

Some posters are so dead set against Moyes that they are bigging up other average managers and suggesting lack of money as a reason.......hang on! I thought the money issue was a red herring and shouldn't be used as an argument about how truly bad Moyes is...hmmmm!

If he comes, he will get my support but I would hope we would be able to get better than a manager who constantly has his team fighting relegation and regularly get twatted by teams....some not that good.

No club higher than Everton will change manager in the summer, bar Chelsea and... well. that kind of status is what we should look to. Players will sign for Rijkaard alone. No one will sign for Martinez in the same way.

He knows Wigan aren't going to be ripping up trees anytime soon, but – from having gone to the odd Wigan game whilst at college when behind both goals was just mud embankments – that club is light years from where it was.

But it's all about chase the egg in Wigan (Rugby mad); he's never going to get 30-40,000 for a home game. I come nearly as far to Goodison for a home game yet their fans come in dribs and drabs, I hear they've only sold 25% of their cup allocation too.

If he does depart, I can't see how a Martinez or Laudrup would be tempted to come and join us. They have done reasonably well in trying circumstances but low expectations. Now to move up a gear to a club with greater expectations than resources? Not sure they would be willing to put their reputations on the line.

How about "A Misery" or "A moan" of Toffeewebbers? Or if we ever beat the Sky4 away, an Exultation ,which we could share with the Skylark or An implausibility .....

But, whatever it is, will people stop using the "Allardyce" word in a thread about Moyes replacement? And by people who have no doubt mentioned Owen Coyle, Rodgers ,Holloway, McCarthy, Warnock, Pearson...BRUCE??? etc in the regular discussions regarding successor. FFS....

Have a look at the list of unemployed ex managers here and then add the Fat Spanish Waiter to it and then pick MOYES mark 2.

Coaching and managerial experience of at least 5 years
Have either played in the Premier league or managed in the Premier league or the Championship
Have a track record of playing attacking attractive football
Have a track record of playing and developing young players
Have a track record of making astute purchases in the transfer market, including buying and selling to make a profit.
Have a track record of improving players as footballers
Have a track record of winning trophies or gaining promotion
Be tactically astute and have a positive approach to making tactical changes in games.
Have a knowledge and understanding of what it means to manage Everton and the club's history.
I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the types of criteria that we should be looking for in a new manager.

We could use an extra brain around the table at the next meeting. We're thinking of debunking Easter before the end of the month.

Ray - I like "an implausibility of ToffeeWebbers" if we manage to beat the high and mighty. You can get a "parliament of fowls" so why not a parliament of ToffeeWebbers? Order in the house! Order! It's my idea so I'm bagging Shadow Minister for Sports. I feel I'd be more useful in opposition...

I've noticed you've posted this one after Liverpool's emphatic victory at Wigan.

I have a question for you:

When we lost to Arsenal by 7 goals, do you remember that colossal thumping? That's the game where the Arsenal fans sang: "Champions league, you're having a laugh", and they were right (they knew something we didn't).

The day after that game were you just a quick to see your chance and post here on TW and say "Moyes out! what's all the fuss about him we've just been thumped by 7 goals", or did you take a long term none knee jerk view and say "Give him a chance"?

It's a matter of opinion and we're all entitled them. I believe he's had next to no money and had his best players sold on him and has done very well to just keep them in the prem in that small rugby town.

Your timing on this is opportunist to say the least.

Hello Robert,

Yesterday's match winning thread peaked with a Martinez theme that had been building for a while.

What was to be a post on that thread morphed into what you read above.

Sorry I couldn't squeeze it about between 4:45 and 5:30, but neither was the Martinez theme running.

As for DM back when we lost 7-0, one loss albeit huge wasn't a reason to review a position on the manager who I have consistently supported and wrote many an article to defend when times have been tough.

A bit more re-writing of history. The Arsenal fans were only singing a song we used to sing ourselves; I well remember the whole ground singing it the game before at home to Newcastle when we secured fourth place.
Now many thought they were being ironic but in truth we were fortunate to qualify for the CL that season – but then that's what happens sometimes. In fact I would go as far to say both the current side and the 2007-08-09 side were much better teams even though they won't or didn't achieve 4th place.

I would tend to agree with you however in you can't judge Martinez on the basis of one game, much better to judge the 35 PL wins in 142 attempts which if my mental maths is correct is less than 25%. I keep hearing about the free-flowing attacking football Martinez employs, maybe he does but I have been home and away to Wigan for the last three years and on the basis of six games I haven't seen much evidence of it.

I think the biggest problem, should we need a new manager, and one that is overlooked by the MOB, is attracting the right calibre of individual to the shambles that is our administration. I think there is a certain arrogance on display assuming good managers would be queuing up. If I was a young and aspiring PL manager, would I want to work for Bill Kenwright?

We all assume Martinez would come running to Goodison even though he has turned down approaches from both Villa and Liverpool in the last two close seasons.

I do hope you don't come to rue the timing of this article given that the next game is Wigan in the cup and as for Rijkaard get off my bandwagon!

Is that another record the Moyesiah holds, 'cos he's set a few of them while he's been here.

You didn't mind getting massacred by 7 goals (pissed or not)? Your standards are high aren't they? While you were not giving a toss and happy to finish 4th. There were fans out there who could see the greater picture and 40 thousand of them where at Highbury that night. And there were many blues who could also see the picture, but there were fans who thought the corner was turned and we deserved to be in the CL (but we never actually go into it). Just maybe the(true champions league team) Arsenal might have done something similar without our boys being on the pop. It should always the big picture and nothing else.

I have in the past defended DM myself, but now I think, it's time for a change (not necessarily Martinez, but I believe he is a candidate). I think and we agree we have to look at our next manager over his complete history and not just the dramatic results. Whatever side we're on it's the big picture that matters.

Yes it was embarrassing but it was certainly explained away with them all having hang overs, even the professional Carsley drove from Birmingham (?) to go on the lash with his team mates.

Turning the corner? It was one game which hadn't been prepared for properly.

Big picture was that we had finished fourth, couldn't get any higher, couldn't finish any lower.

Gavin, I just thought it might be of interest to some lads on here, I can't guarantee it's accuracy.

Kev Johnson @248
Kev, you're more than welcome to the post of Shadow Minister for Sports. I've just been granted the job of Minister For Going To Bed.
Night all.
COYB. (come on you bed)

No re-writing of history on my behalf, it's a stone cold fact that the Arsenal fans sang it on that day (it doesn't matter who sang it before or after), my main concern was 7 goals that went past us in that match. No revisionism it all happened.
The important thing is that someone sang it to us (ouch!).

"In fact I would go as far to say both the current side and the 2007-08-09 side were much better teams even though they won't or didn't achieve 4th place." It's my opinion we've never looked like we've even had an outsiders chance in the Europa cup.

"...............much better to judge the 35 PL wins in 142 attempts which if my mental maths is correct is less than 25%."
I like the sarcasm nicely weaved in (my kind of style). A very true statement, I can't argue with your arithmetic, that's a win for you!

What I can say is that Dave Whelan was relatively (I emphasize relatively) cash happy and backed Paul Jewel when he was their manager, but when he left the money dried up. Since then Roberto Martinez has fought a hell of a battle just to keep them up and there's a lot of people within football who give Martinez the credit he deserves. He's had next to no money and his best players have been sold on him.

If Moyes was at Wigan with his defensive style and the wigan budget, he would my opinion take them down, Martinez has been clever enough to realise in his position he can't sit back and wait for chances, but has to make them. Even though they got stuffed by Liverpool they made some decent chances and on another day they go in. Although I'm not stuck on Martinez there are others.

"If I was a young and aspiring PL manager, would I want to work for Bill Kenwright?"
Agree with you on that one, there'll be penty of them including Martinez that may say (if he does stays up, "I stay where I am until something better comes along").

He turned Liverpool down, he can't be all bad eh?

I don't think you do understand the big picture.

If you did you wouldn't be concerned with hangovers.

I'll give you a little clue: they finished 4th but they weren't 4th place material with or withot a hangover.

Read my post again.

He'll have a couple of years to make the team his, then he'll be expected to perform in the prem and hopefully look like we might win a cup or two.

Why are people saying Stever Clark? He's had one good season, who knows what he'll do next year. Despite some good results he's also played some extremely negative football despite having quite a good array of attacking players.

As for Martinez some people are using the argument that people in football respect him....the exact same argument that they discount when used to praise Moyes. They're both respected in football circles, but so are a lot of managers, the profession tends to look after itself, I've never heard anyone say anything other than 'he's doing a good job' about any league manager.

His results speak for themselves though, despite continued premier league stability (which is to his credit, but is something Paul Jewell and Steve Bruce also achieved) his team is always in the relegation fight. Say what you want about wage bills or money but championship sides such as Swansea and Norwich (there'll probably be one this season too) have come up and easily finished ahead of them. The same people who are using money to excuse the failings of Martinez are not willling to accept it as a reason for Moyes' inability to get us into the top 4.

The only question we should be asking if a new manager came in is would you feel confident that next season they'd have a better chance than Moyes at getting us into the top 4? For me the answer to this for Martinez is no, he may implement some long term plan that bears fruit in 5 years or so but personally i'd rather allow Moyes another year or two at building if we keep progressing as we have. The answer for Clarke is no. If you are mentioning names like Hiddink (unrealistic I know), or Rijkaard, even Redknapp, then the answer to that question may be different, but surely not Martinez.

He did draw up a blue print, and got them promoted. Without him, there is little doubt they would be in the premier league today.

Ask any of the swans fans, or ask their board. He was invaluable.

He knows how to play attractive football, he knows how to entertain the fans.

Why has he not put down the blue print for Wigan? Since you ask that question, how about turning it around and asking a couple of searching questions about Gollum at our club.

1 what happened to the 5 year plan to get us to win silverware?
2 Why does he persist with the same old thing week in and out, naming favourite players?
3 He has had a lot more money to spend than his counter part, and yet we still have a smaller squad than Wigan, so you tell me, why in all of that time, he has not built a squad up capable of being rotated when needed? A clue, isn't about the money, he's had more than enough to buy a squad over the past 11 years.

Moyes said himself he wanted to reduce the playing age of the staff...and yet what has he done? That's right, he has INCREASED THE PLAYING AGE! Smith's team average age was low 20's, moyes' is just over 30, again that has bugger all to do with money.

Why has no big club come in for Martinez? Maybe for the same reason no one ever would come in for our own Gollum play it safe and bottle it in big games.

Comparing Wigan to Everton in size, is laughable. I'll tell you this much, I want to be entertained when I watch Everton. I don't want to watch OAP's struggle to get passed their own halfway line.

If Wigan had the funds, they would be above us in the league with Martinez at the helm. He has already changed the way things work at Wigan. Can you not remember, when they where exactly the same type of outfit as Bolton under fat Sam? Very physical side, very poor playing style.

In just two years, they have gone from thugs, to a difficult team to break down. Ask United or the Neighbours or any of the other teams like Arsenal, Chelsea.

Everton have no money like Swansea (back when they would have been relegated to the conference, and into administration) or like Wigan..but surely changing it around on the pitch, to playing passing football. With a manager who tactically knows what he is doing..would have have given us wins rather than draws.

We need inspiration, we need attacking flair, we need to give youth a chance..and we need better quality football on the deck. I believe Martinez could and would provide all of that. We might not be a top 4 side, but we are a big club, and I for one want him here.

If you compare him to gollum, they are both light years ahead... Under Moyes, the team is so small, it can pick itself, when there are injuries it does pick itself... he couldn't manage a big squad..he would do perfect at Wigan he is a bottom half of the table manager....

We basically were Wigan when Moyes took over and he didn't take us down, in fact he took us steadily up the table to a position where our fans are moaning about not getting Champions League and our table position outstrips our financial position.

As for Martinez, who knows? His work at Swansea was certainly more impressive than his work at Wigan who he seems unable to elevate from perennial relegation strugglers.

I do find it funny that the likes of Barry Rathbone are telling us that he has had no money at Wigan whilst he spends most of the time telling us how such arguments are no excuse for Moyes to be not winning the league!

I wonder if Laudrup has a penchant for amateur dramatics and maybe Bill could turn his head with a steep salary rise and part in his newest production of Hamlet: The Musical.

I didn't say any such thing so how can I possibly remember?

BUT.... I'm gonna say it now:

MOYES SHOULD WIN THE LEAGUE WITH NO MONEY!!

I won't have people saying you're making stuff up mate.

See, this brigade thing has generated more questions than answers.

Fuck me. Just projectiled coffee all over myself like Brundlefly preparing breakfast by pewking on his own hand.

In what way were Everton ever the equivalent of Wigan Sam?

I quite like a 'harumph' of Toffeewebbers.

We were similar to Wigan in that we were embroiled in relegation struggles with an unimpressive ageing squad and not much in the way of financial backing from the board.

We desperately need an official TW poll here!

I would prefer either a 'glass half-empty' or a 'glass half-full' of Toffeewebbers — depending on your predisposition, of course!

di = diverse

a = arsey

tribe = family

Constructive contribution, Sam. Alliteration is always good. I've gone for a rhyme (well, half-rhyme) with "bevy" - which also hints at having a glass or two of something intoxicating, plus it has happy connotations. (I've only heard of a "bevy of bathing beauties" before, but I reckon it would work nicely to describe us ugly mugs.)

Richard: yeah, erudition might work. Originally, I entertained "school", which is along the same lines and has the added advantage of hinting at "school of science". Of course, it was a few years back that label applied to us. I don't know what we'd be now? The (Jesuit -run, OFSTED-failed) College of Perpetual Disappointment? The Academy of Fairly Goodness?

As for the coffee? It was more 'lukewarm pish' than 'molten lava' so I'll survive.

Further deconstructing the OP, can I point out that while the Moyes Out Brigade makes a grossly unfair but perfectly meaningful acronym, MOB, all you get from the Martinez In Brigage is MIB, which means nowt. I suggest that the OP, Nick, or someone who agrees with him on this point, comes up with a two word replacement for "brigade" which makes sense when its initials are put together.

As I'm on the other side of this debate, I'm not going to exercise my brain too much, but off the top of my head, I would offer MIFF to describe disgruntled Evertonians who want a change of manager and reckon Martinez might be the man. That's "Martinez In Future Faction". If that's too neutral sounding, you can always replace "Future" with "Fuckwit".

On the Brigade issue, MOB just has a nice ring to it.

James, it's sort of been said already, but what was Moyes' five year plan when he re-signed in 2008? Since then we've gone down the table and he knew what he had to work with so if he had a plan, he's either not achieved it, or it was a pretty shitty plan.

He's done alright but that cup final, I would have loved to see what would have happened if Chelsea had played without Terry, Lampard and Drogba.

I'd say the RS would be classed as a big club.

If the FA Cup tie had seen Wigan drawn at home on Saturday, the demand for tickets from Evertonians would have been immense, Wigan are struggling to sell their allocation for Saturday. Richard Dodd thinks big crowds are unimportant, I believe he's totally wrong, without the supporters the club is nothing.

I wonder if the staunchest Wigan fan believes that Wigan and Everton are similar clubs.
There's a saying that pride comes before a fall, but many blues on here seem to have lost all semblance of pride in their club and team and are just waiting for the inevitable fall.

The Swansea chairman has said that he already has plans in place to replace Laudrup should he be tempted to Real Madrid, I bet he won't turn his nose up if Martinez decides to apply.

The best team won now move on. We missed the spine of our team through injury. If Moyes and Hiddink swapped clubs, Everton still wouldnt have won that game.

...as an aside to the Martinz bashers what was Moyes' top flight record before he joined us?

Yep, if over half the ground is a wasteland of empty seats every game, interspersed with a smattering of buck toothed simpletons in each stand, it must act as a fucking elixir to a footballer.

Moyes seems to think a large, fervent crowd play a part:

"I didn't think they got the big decisions right - I thought the referee was taken by the crowd and that they influenced the big decisions."

Or..

“We hope it’s the same as the last Monday night we had. If we get the same from the support as they offered us that night then it makes a big difference. It’s a strong crowd at Goodison ...., and the fans want to be involved in giving their team the best chance with the atmosphere they produce."

Or...

“Goodison is a great place to play and that’s why it’s important the supporters are there and make the difference"

We last got relegated in 1950 and that for just three seasons.
This season we have lost five games, how many clubs have lost less ??

Mr Moyes has done a fantastic job of making ends meet with virtually no backing financially.

We are I believe the 10th highest in wages paid but this board regularly loan out shedfulls of players thereby lowering the wage bill still further.
In the past few seasons we have got rid of Cahill, Yak, Arteta, Rodwell, Beckford, Bily, Vaughan, Yobo, Ruddy and lots of youngsters.
Some of the above were our highest earners.
I believe our wage bill is even less than the 10th highest now.
Our first team squad includes players who have gone out on loan eg; Buckley and Magueye.
We are literally scraping the barrel.
We have had Jags covering right back and latterly Hibbo playing centre back.
I look at the players on the squads of teams far lower than we are in the league and there's is stronger when you see the bench's.
Our bench is an absolute disgrace and there are players on it just making the numbers up.
As I have said before..no club with ambition would have signed Naismith, Hitzelsberger, Hahnemann or MacFadden and used them as stiffs to fill the bench.

It's also widely accepted in the media that we play some pretty decent stuff, we hardly ever play hoofball anymore no matter what the "Moyes out brigade" might say.

It also makes me laugh that the same people will spout off about how big a club we are, how we should be winning things and bringing in the best yet would quite happy put a third-rate clown like Martinez in charge at Goodison who has achieved absolutely nothing but seems like a good guy when interviewed!!!

Firstly my assertion was about DM being at the foot of the prem, I didn't mention the CL.

I agree with you it was a pretty poor squad when he took over, but have a look at the various sites about how much Martinez spent compared to DM and what he's had taken off him.

As far as I'm concerned I don't think Wigan would survive with DM (given no money to spend) in the modern prem where most teams are trying to move towards a "total football approach", whereas with the money he's (Moyes) had to spend at EVerton has afforded him better quality players who can more easily handle the pressures (up until recently eh?) of that defensive style he plays. Martinez in the modern prem cannot afford for them to get continually pounded in their own area.

For what it's worth I'm not saying Moyes is a poor mangager, I think he's probably somewhere between average and good, but neverthless we need a change.

I'm feeling the same about BK as you do, the last transfer window was a farce and when the season ends it could well turn into tragic farce if BK and team are in good form.

"I do find it funny that the likes of Barry Rathbone are telling us..............."
It would take an extremely talented manager to build, maintain, keep together and motive a team to win the prem on our budget, I don't think he exists. However I don't think it's impossible to challange for 4th-5th-6th and win a few cups along the way on our budget (the money that been given to Moyes during his time).

Its mystifying why anyone thinks we loiter pathetically in 6th without money because some divine force props us up.

Between average and good, oh perrrrlease.

David Moyes net spend last 10 years £42 million

Arsene spent £500,000 more per season than David over the last 10 years.
And qualified for the Champions League in every one of them 10 years.

How can this be possible? You cant challenge the top 4 without money according to a few posters on ToffeeWeb

Otherwise it's simply more of the same or we go backwards.

Martinez must have a magic wand to generate such traffic.

As I said, we all obviously WANT the next manager to win things – honestly, as I think he will still be here next season, I want MOYES to win things and break us into the CL – but if they don't win things and we don't go backwards, what harm has been done?

Seriously why would you insist on something that Moyes has only achieved once, 8 years ago, as an immediate success criteria for a new manager? I take it from your post that you personally would insist on immediate success?

• Must be able to work within a budget
• Must be able to maintain the high ethical and moral standards of the current employee,
• Must be willing to work with the Chairman and maintain dignity at all times.
• Experience in winning at top 4 grounds is not required.
• Taking part in high profile games is desirable but not necessary as we no longer expect to win these type of matches.
• Vast European experience is not required.

Due to the low number of applicants expected to apply we are unable to offer the vacancy to someone who isn't Scottish, aged 49, already employed by the club. We apologise for any inconvenience caused to those who belong to the MOB but a firm and steady hand on the tiller is far more important than any fanciful ideas of being entertained or misguided notions of glory. NSNO

Brilliant!

That then begs the question of ambition, we should be looking to emulate Spurs, no-one can can convince me we cannot achieve the same goals as they have recently. They have just lost arguably their two best players in Van der Vaart and Modric, and still look like they can match any team in the League.

People also forget a new manager may have a far better scouting network than our current set up. Obviously any replacement can fail, but if we pay like for like for a new manager, and keep our player wages at the same level, you would have to be fairly crap to to let us slip into any relegation battles.

"Who would you say is better than Moyes, Robert?"
The phrasing of that question is very mischievous!

Very few managers (except those at the so called bigger clubs) have had the kind of resources Moyes has had, I can't say Martinez, Laudrup (although he's already a winner) etc are better because they've never had chance to play on a level playing field with Moyes (just as Moyes has never had a level playing field with Ferguson, Morinho etc). What I can say is that there are managers out there demonstrating potential, I would be happy to give a chance to.

Moyes has run his course with or without money, he's tired and so are many of us.

"Between average and good, oh perrrrlease."
Perhaps a bit facetious?

What do you want me to say 6 for technique, 6 for execution and 4 for artistic impression (now I'm being facetious!)

Other than a lengthy dissertation, I'll give 6.5/10 (which is (by magic) between average and good! Aren't I helpful!).

No cups and a woeful record in big games are just some of the points that suggest he's reached his limit and needs a new challenge at Stoke (Pulis is under pressure apparently).

"It's mystifying why anyone thinks we loiter pathetically in 6th without money because some divine force props us up." — I don't remember saying that Nick, In fact I'm absolutely sure I didn't. So why are you asking me?

In any case 6th, really? We'll be luck to finish 8th by the time Liverpool and Swansea have gone past us and maybe even West Brom!

We're like a boxer with a glass jaw at the moment, waiting to be chinned and I wouldn't be too impressed by the performance against those mugs Reading if I were you.

And, as he will also be expected to operate miracles on an uncompetitive budget (whilst under constant attack from his own side) - I would throw in a begging bowl, a riot shield and two pieces of wood and some nails.

We will therefore have a successful coach, with a sexy name for the ladies and with Wigan roots.

Now, all he has to is the water into wine bit .....

"For a club as legendary as Everton it has to be about glory. Not simply hanging on saying hey things could be worse."

Perfectly summed up by the article writer.

Re: Wenger's 'mysterious knack,' of qualifying for the Champions League.

He has purchased 12 players for fees in excess of £10 million. Silvain Wiltord for example, cost £13 million; Arshavin - £19 million. He even spent £8 million apiece on Franny Jeffers & the left-back Van Bronkhorst..

The only reason his net-spend looks so good, is due to the massive fees Arsenal received for the likes of Anelka, (£23 million) and Van.Persie, (£22million). Overmars & Nasri went for '£25m,' each, Fabregas for €29 million, Henry, (£16m) Viera (£13m) etc..

It's not mysterious to me. Wenger is a far better manager and judge of a player than David could ever hope to be.

The players you mention that Arsene sold for massive fee: Who bought them for very small fees?

Considering we spent £5 million on Jelavic, and Wenger splashed £6 million for Richard Wight, another £6 million for the left-back Santos or £9 million for Theo Walcott....it really doesn't compare.

"Who bought them for very small fees?"

David Moyes (a far poorer judge of player than Arsene Wenger, apparently) spent a tiny fee on Mikel Arteta, got a great return out of him, and then sold him on to Wenger for £10 million.

Petit fees non?

Ten million for Mertesacker, £7 million for Lauren, another ten million for Podolski.

Moyes paid buttons for Lescott, Jagielka, Cahill, Howard, Gibson, Saha, Pienaar, Neville, Coleman, Mirallas, etc..

He only paid really big for the likes of Johnson, Yak & Fella.

10 years ago Arsenal had a double winning team, which went on to be The Invincibles.

Everton were a team which struggled against relegation.

At the moment Everton are 2 points behind Arsenal and have an outside chance of taking their place in the top 4.

Despite spending an extra £500k net each year on average, Wenger has overseen a period of general decline while Moyes has overseen a period of general improvement.

I would give my right arm for Everton to have had the decline Aresenal have had in the last 10 years.