Sometimes a hoof is needed and often players get caught out when trying to 'always' pass the way out of the box.

I just hope that your comments regarding the individual merits of JH and Jags are not aimed at having JH in the side ahead of Jagielka.
There is no comparison..Jags is faster, a better defender and far better in the air.
I have never seen Jags have a sequence of disastrous games as JH has recently had.
He had to be subbed at half time in one match.

Please do not stretch your comments to absurdities.

Heitinga had nothing to do with any improvement. He has his customary brainfart for their goal.

Mucha and Coleman had cracking games I thought. The distribution from Mucha was much faster and accurate than when Howard plays.

We could be playing the best football that man has ever seen but if we didn't win it would immediately be branded as hoofball by some fans, just like the entirety of the last 11 years has been nothing but hoofball according to some. I don't like to see aimless punts up the pitch but if they do start would it kill for an attacker to jump for it and someone to pick up a second ball?

Some of the so-called top teams in England have had most of their success based on picking up the knock downs from a long ball on the counter attack, Gerrard and Lampard have made careers out of smashing in the rebounds from other peoples long balls. To be honest I think the Oldham game this year is the only one were we've consistently hoofed it. On the whole we've played it on the deck most of the time this season.

To play effective hoofball you need blistering pace, à la Sewer Rat. It can be devastating when under the cosh but you need a pacy, clever striker to execute it properly.

Pace is not something we possess throughout the team unfortunately. Mirallas is quick but not quick enough to get from defence to opponents box before being closed down as we defend with everyone behind the ball when under the cosh.

Richard, how dare you accuse the mighty Roly Howard of playing anything but the Beautiful Game in all its purity! Hoofball? Pah!

James – No he didn't. Anichebe didn't do his job properly when closing down the cross, the guy who scored their goal was Distin's man.

418 - Err, I wonder if some fans actually have any idea about the game!! JH was not culpable for the goal they scored. If you watch the game you will see that Vic lets his man go unattended and allows him acres of space for a cross that is played perfectly into the space (how a cross should be executed) between the centre backs. The first of those, JH would not have reached that ball if he was Fellas height and the second Distin was covering the longer ball (to the far post). To blindly blame JH just shows that you might watch the game, but clearly have little or no idea of how it actually works. JH also made numerous headed clearances from corners (again you fail to see this basic defensive element).

Richard, good to see that you are back and hoofball is the main feature of those 3. I noticed time and time again that Mucha managed to pick out one of our players with his passes, the commentator thought he was miskicking the ball because he actually found blue shirts which clearly Howard does not do enough. JH plays a cultured passing game and so it seems does Coleman. For me they are the new breed that Moyes is attempting to develop. He just has to revert to type to often because we keep losing our way. Maybe time is up for Nev and maybe Mucha will keep the shirt for the rest of the season!!

Mucha's kicking was far better than Howard's, it seemed that he was actually aiming for a blue shirt and found Felllaini down the middle on a number of occasions. I'm not for one minute suggesting that Mucha is any better than Howard in terms of his all round game but after five years of Howard it was good to see an alternative which didnt happen to be all that bad. My opinion is that we should be looking to bring in a goalkeeper as a longer term solution and was dissapointed that we missed out on Butland who went to Stoke.

Apologies to dear Roly and to you, Brian. I also seem to have upset Trevor Lynes whom I`m sure I once saw plying his trade at Crosby. (I don`t think he hoofed it very far!)

I agree that Mucha kicked the ball far better than Howard usually does, but don't think overall he is as good as Howard and I am definitely not one of Howards biggest fans. Mind seems the trend for most goalkeepers is to stay on the line even when the ball is delivered into the 6 yard box, it really infuriates me. I mean if someone gets a touch on the ball that close the keeper has virtually no chance of stopping it. Dont know why they don't come and command the 6 yard box as they use too and god help any forward who ventured into their space as most times keepers led with their feet closely followed by 2 fists punching the ball.

I also worry how we will cope without Jagielka as Heitinga is not looking like an International player for me. He ball watches and the number of times players run in behind him without him even knowing they are there. His marking is abysmal even on Saturday from long balls played their forwards got goal side of Heitinga and not in an offside position. The first thing you are taught as a defender is to stay goal side of your forward were possible.

Richard, my best memory of Marine games, apart from Roly's Total Football, is that if you were standing on the sidelines you may as well have been playing, because the spectators section and the pitch were virtually indistinguishable. Haven't been in about 30 years, but thanks for bringing back the memories.

By the way, Roly Howard is the longest serving manager in the history of British football, clocking up 33 years! David Moyes is one third of the way there!

We need to accept that each player has their own plusses and negatives for the team. Coleman is better going forward but probably not as good defensively as Hibbert or Neville, so we will gain in some areas but lose out in others.

Jaggs is a far better defender than Heitinga in every way except for his distribution, but because of Fellainis presence up top I don’t mind it if Jaggs knocks it long to him rather than inviting further pressure onto the team or being a liability trying to play it out from the back which he is not comfortable doing so. Moyes is using the best tactics to get the best out of his team. He wants his best defender Jaggs on the field but he knows he is weak bringing the ball out from the back so makes sure Victor or Fellaini are available to him. I don’t think it has anything to do with coaching that some players have more of a tendency than other to knock it long, Jaggs is just better at tackling and heading than he is passing or dribbling.

It was always a little disconcerting at Marine to hear the following Mariners chant: 'In the town of Waterloo, there's a team called Marine'.

Waterloo, Water-fucking-loo! Marine is Crosby through and through. Heresy.

'We support them yes we do and their name is Marine, 234, We all live to support the great marine, support the great marine, We all live ... '

(to tune of Yellow Submarine)

Bug and Bite and later the College Supper Bar after the match, so long as Everton weren't playing.

Fucking hate Chorley and Formby.

Some of our lads have a maddening habit of heading the ball when under no pressure. That really does my head in.

It's not just the hoofball that stinks — our passing game is equally as dire. We never combine one-touch passing with slick movement or pace. All our players seem to dwell on the ball and take an extra touch before going sideways or backwards, then comes the hoof. Its definitely the way in which Moyes & Round coach the team.

Watch a decent passing side and the player receiving the ball knows were it's going before it reaches him. One touch and the ball is gone from his foot. I watched Watford the other night and the way they were knocking it about was light years ahead of Everton's style. Cardiff also play lovely stuff and these two teams are at the top off the Championship where we all think hoofing is the norm.

Something's not right at Finch Farm.

I thought Mucha was poor, punched and put us under pressure in first half, squirmed a tame effort and pretended his hand was sore in the second and did a terrible kick clearance which could easily have been intercepted. He looked very nervous.

In terms of hoofball, I thought there was plenty first half and our players looked knackered and drained. Second half performance was much better

I think some people might have ignored the fact the Executioners Bong actually states that Mucha's distribution in that match was worse than Howards average all season. But any who, L,DL&S.

Good to see the two greatest Merseyside clubs mentioned on the same thread.

The Roly years from 1991-1995 were special. Beating Southport at Goodison in the Senior Cup Final, tremendous.

Talking Blue, I can see our 26th FA Cup SF come 2:30pm Saturday.

Paul Ferry, you are really testing me now. As a founder member of the Rossett Park Mariners Association circa 1967, I contributed to the creation of that song. I have always understood College Road to be the boundary between Crosby and Waterloo, so the College Supper Bar is in Waterloo whereas George and Angela's is in Crosby. I could be wrong, but in any case "Waterloo" scans better into the song than "Crosby"!

Brian Hill, I went to the recent match against FC United of Manchester and noticed they have now put a fence below the touchline barrier, so supporters can't stick out a leg to whip up a flying winger, as has been known in the past.

Agree with Ian #445. Every player brings something to the team but on the whole, quite honestly, only a fool would rate Heitinga as a better defender than Jagielka.

I also thought that Mucha's distribution was at times quite poor. Yes, he generally targetted Fellaini very well but do you not remember a couple of clearances that barely left the ground but which, fortunately, found an Everton player? Or a couple of crosses that he never got anywhere near? Just because our regular keeper has obvious weaknesses, don't use Mucha's half decent performance as a stick to beat Howard with!

However, I do agree that with Neville out of the midfield, there is a massive and noticeable improvement – notably in the speed of distribution.

There is also a time and a place for hoofball – perhaps Heitinga should have practised it against WBA!

Tony Marsh #459, have you noticed how many passes in the last few games have been under hit? Fellaini is the main culprit. I noticed particularly against Man Utd that he seemed to believe that ever pass should involve a team mate in a hospital challenge.

I see what you mean, though, there always seems to be an extra touch that destroys any move and I believe it is something that the coaches should address.

You lot did a great job in the Association, Pete; thanks. I was being tongue-in-cheek as I think you know, but I did really enjoy those days and times.

Hmmm, if there's a border, shouldn't it be at the point where College Road ends at the junction with Crosby (Merchant Taylors) on the left? Anyway, the College Supper Bar is further up the road towards the old Alexandra Hall and therefore ought to be Crosby, as George and Angela's (better chips, I thought), is next to Myers Road.

Paul, I think you are right, I was trying to blag you to justify the words of the song. Geography was never my strong point, especially when I was a budding lyricist at the age of 11.

On a tangent, I had the pleasure of bumping into George Scanlon last summer. George was the trainer at Marine during the 60s, but was also a lecturer in Russian at Liverpool University. He acted as interpreter for Russia during the 1966 World Cup, they had an excellent run which of course ended in a semi-final defeat at Goodison. He subsequently worked with Andrei Kanchelskis at Rangers, United and Everton.

Whenever there was a big game on telly, I could always see George somewhere around the directors box, so I pointed out to him that he must have been at just about every World Cup, European Championship and Europa League final over the past 50 years. He very politely replied that he had, indeed, attended many of those matches, but I think he was finding my questions a little tedious.

I then asked him "So would it mean anything to you if I said Marine 3 Dagenham 4?" (an Amateur Cup quarter final replay at College Road in 1967). He leapt out of his chair like a 5-year-old shouting "It was me, it was me, I sent Fav up front" — Barry Favager, the stalwart centre half, scored a last second equaliser to make the match 2 - 2 and take it into extra time.

All those matches, all those great games, and Mr Scanlon became animated by the memory of that moment. A true football gentleman.

Paul Ferry, as an Evertonian who grew up in Chorley I have been to quite a few games between the mighty Magpies and Marine. Why the animosity towards Chorley? Apart from some crowd trouble at Marine in an FA Cup replay in the late 80s I don't remember much between the clubs. Chorley's biggest rivalry was always with Morecambe.

I do remember Peter King as a great stalwart and captain for both clubs in the late 80s early 90s.

Paul Ferry, agree about George and Angela's, great chippy. I used to live close to the Crosby Marina and it was worth a little hike up to College Road after a scoop or two in the Brooke. Happy days.....

Great stuff Pete, he was a true gentleman and I had forgotten about the Kanchelskis work.

I was a little tongue in cheek Andy (585) but I do remember several clashes with Chorley including that FA Cup night match where things turned a little nasty. Part of the mythology for my Crosby/Marine generation (late-70s/early-80s) was that Chorley were rivals and enemies off and on the pitch, rightly or not. We all need folk devils and hopping on the train to Formby with Marine could get hairy at times and Chorley was another. I'd much rather be sitting in a boozer with you before of after an Everton game.

Brian, hopped you popped into the Volly on the way home mate!