The remarkable thing is the more hard faced he becomes the more devoted the excuses from certain qtrs.

He's more or less admitted he's keeping his options open till the summer to check out the market - he really is a cheeky get who should have his desk cleared and marched off the premises by security.

I have no idea what the word prevarication means.

And just to add that if I were being a contrarian to the populist TW view throughout his tenure that would me capricious - but as it has not wavered since match 1 it does not make me a contrarian either.

I have a viewpoint based on its own merits, rather than the zeitgeist.

I look forward to the introduction of more impressive words in your reply.

In another thread, Phil Walling suggests that Moyes should move for the benefit of his career — and I don`t disagree with that. The time may well be right for him to test his skills on another stage. On the other hand, I see nothing he's done merits him getting the sack. Certainly being permanently `seventhish` in the Prem and going to the Cup Quarter-Finals might justify a nice pay-off at the Tribunal!

I don't think many ToffeeWebbers will find my use of 'prevarication' the sort of intellectual snobbery you seem to think. You can use 'zeitgeist' of course. Presumably because in terms of the number of letters it's not as 'big' a word.

Moyes seems to me to be a decent guy. He's probably prone to a bit of flattery but aren't we all? Maybe he's started believing the flattery.

Nick, Richard, I like reading your posts. You both seem to have strong opinions and rarely (if ever) succumb to knee-jerk reactions. I respect that a lot.

(Here comes a Jemifer Lopez sized but...) BUT, you have to see that yesterday illustrated graphically what is going wrong at the club. Players not working hard enough and just jogging around cluelessly. A manager baffled and slow to react to the opposition, I know 3 in 4 minutes but the warnings about our right side were obvious before their first goal. A bench with a kid and a bunch of cloggers points at how little help Moyes has got from the board.

We had a good chance of something this season. Liverpool in transition, Arsenal in decline, Chelsea being undermined by Terry, Man City with second season syndrome and Man Utd sucking points off all the CL placed clubs and we've fucked it up. The blame is with the board, the manager and the players.

We need change at this club at the top. Either a new board or a change of their attitude. I'd urge every match going supporter to boycott the next home game. Let them play to 3,000 away fans, maybe it would make them realise that they are only here to please us and without us they're nothing.

• Moyes has every right to walk out on us for nothing
• Neville in midfield is a good idea
• The relegated Blackburn team was more creative than us as Yak banged in 18 goals for them last season (Keane actually stated he'd told Yak to get back to concentrating on what he does best, scoring goals, pretty clear dig at Moyes)
• Jelavic has improved this season
• No-one apart from the first 11 or under 24 is good enough to play
• Really the club are loaded they just need to be blackmailed by Moyes to spend

Surprise me by actually responding with some reasons why you think the points are misrepresentations.

1, Yes. That's Employment law for you.
2, No. Why do you think I agree with everything he does?
3, No idea, were they?
4, That's just silly.
5, Now you're just running out of things to say.
6, Wait, Clarkson is being less dull...

1) Maybe but I have never seen it happen at any other football club so why is it happening at Everton? Is Moyes bigger than the club? Football is a different world so stating that's employment law ignores the fact that in most jobs you don't get paid £60k or so a week and another employer has to pay millions if £s to get you to change teams.

2) I don't, I thought as you'd said my post was full of "false representation" and that was one of my points you agreed with Neville being in midfield.

3) Again assumed the view that Moyes ruins strikers was another "false representation" therefore the Yak can only have improved at Blackburn by getting more chances in a more creative team.

4) See above Jelavic is not the striker he was when we signed him, he spends most of his time on the wing or back defending.

5) Really so why play a 36-year-old right back in centre mid when we have 2 much better alternatives (Assuming Gibson wasn't fully fit) in Hitzlsperger or Barkley.
6) Yes your best bet is to ignore this point as the club has no money so how can anyone believe the back with cash or I'll leave stance.

I have to say Nick you puzzle me, you say my article is full of false representations then when pushed seem to be saying you don't disagree with most of the points made or ignore them. Make your mind up.

I'll make it easy for you, tell me your view of Moyes' team selections, his ability to motivate and tactically outwit other managers in games that count (You know the ones that might actually win us a trophy), how the fact we are so predictable in our play is not down to Moyes and explain to me why it is acceptable at Everton but no other club for a manager to run down his contract and walk away for free whilst bringing increasing instability to the club.

ps: Talking of boring your habit of being what you believe to be clever without actually backing up anything you say with a valid point or anything that relates to the reality of how football clubs work is about as tedious as it gets.

Procrastination is the thief of all time....

As for Jelavic, he's a striker but he's also a footballer and his business is on the pitch not just in a small area of it. Moyes hasn't destroyed him at all. His loss of form manifested itself in Poland during the Euros. He went overnight from being the deadly iceman at Everton to being quite definitively second fiddle to Manducic(?) for his national team. That must have messed with his confidence and he's carried it over into the season.

How do you fix it? I have no idea but I do know a guy who's paid very well to figure it out... but he hasn't yet.

That's a fair point but if you read Nick's first post you'll see it wasn't really a defence of the club more a patronising I know better than you but am not going explain why.

We'll have disagree on that one, I want my main striker working in and around the box scoring goals, the more time he spends on the wing or back defending the less time he's spending looking to create the space to score. Too many strikers have1 good season with us then change their game under our coaching staff's guidance and become far less effective at scoring goals which is what I want from a striker. I can guarantee if Jelavic was playing in a team playing to his strengths, I.e. quick through balls to run onto or cut backs into the box he'd be scoring far more regularly.

Jelavic was never really first choice for his country anyway was he? He's barely in double figures on starts for them, most of his appearances had come from the bench until recently. Talking of his national team didn't he score within minutes of coming on recently for them? He showed for the ball got it played through and scored with one touch. We build up slowly and nearly always go out to the wings, we play to Felli's strengths not Jelavic's.

To answer your last question we fix it by varying our game, allowing Jelavic to stay in the oppositions half, giving him the kind of service I mentioned above and not bringing everyone back for corners so we can actually counter attack at pace. You have to play to the strengths of a natural goal scorer like Jelavic or there is little point playing him.

If you would have told me then that Neville would still be handed first team shirts in centre midfield eight fucking years later, I would have presumed we had got relegated somewhere along the way.

Moyes is a joke. And it is a sign of a cunt that he is constantly putting his face forward as a panelist and pundit as often as he does. Twat. Go now; you will not be remembered in 20 years time.

Robbie: If Moyes is such a "cunt," or a "twat," then I'd love to know what invective you would employ to describe messrs Lee, Walker, Smith, or even Howard Kendall's last two spells come to think of it.

The man's clearly done what he thought was best, and has worked his socks off for 11 long years.

Show a little grace.

Psinfully I also remember every game where it has actually mattered since then the team have retreated into their shells and are more worried about the opposition than playing our own game; Villareal at Goodison, Bucharest away, Fiorentina away, Liege away, Benfica home and away, Lisbon away, Chelsea home and away in the Carling cup semi in 2008, Chelsea in the FA cup final 2010, the shite in last years semi & yesterday. Tactics, or lack of, along with fear lost those games.

I would hate to see Moyes finish his time at Everton to howls of derision and abuse so I would like him to go now. Ideally he would pick the team up and produce a strong finish that sees us in the Europa league; then move on. I fear, though, that too many players are shot of confidence and belief for this to happen.

Managers go when their players stop playing for them. It's a shameful indictment of players that this is the case but Old trafford and Saturday saw Everton sides who. in my view, see an era ending as clearly as some of us do.

So if you want direct answers I'm afraid that yes I may be patronising but you've served up some right shit.

• Moyes has every right to walk out on us for nothing – yes, his contract is at an end. You're demanding compensation on a toxic asset by the way.

• Neville in midfield is a good idea – no.

• The relegated Blackburn team was more creative than us as Yak banged in 18 goals for them last season (Keane actually stated he'd told Yak to get back to concentrating on what he does best, scoring goals, pretty clear dig at Moyes)

Yak had given up and found as he often had a new club and new impetus. Just like when he joined us after stinking out Boro in search of a move. Just as he did after stinking out Portsmouth in search of a move.

Why are you asking me about the Yak anyway?

• Jelavic has improved this season - this is where you start to go cuckoo bananas. Why would you presume that I agree with this?

• No-one apart from the first 11 or under 24 is good enough to play - Again why would you presume...

• Really the club are loaded they just need to be blackmailed by Moyes to spend - I have no idea where you're coming from with that one. I really don't. Do you?

You want my views on your other points?

Moyes team selections? head scratching.

Ability in the potential trophy winning games? Sorely lacking.

Predictable play? Right now we're suffering in form for varying reasons. if you posted that two months ago you'd be laughed at. If he's responsible for the form now, do you not concede he was responsible in first half season? Nah, down to the the ghost of Dixie or something...

Walk away running down his contract? You explain it. I don't know. We all have our theories but I can't give you a satisfactory answer and conjecture never satisfies anyone.

As in your response to John Gee, why presume that I would simply defend the club? Really, why would you think that I would have nothing but 100% cast iron desire to defend the club? Thinking you could back me into a corner by having me defend anything and everything including your bollocks points, sorry, bullet points, was a tad presumptuous.

Nick Entwistle
508 Posted 10/03/2013 at 16:15:40
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To be fair you've covered most of the false representations, not all but most, of David Moyes into one article. Well done.

This arrogant patronising response indicated to me you disagreed with all my points so I wanted to hear your views. Perhaps if you'd provided some substance in the first place rather than trying to be a smart arse I wouldn't have had to presume so much.

As it goes now you don't actually seem to disagree with any of the original points which included all of the things you now seem to be surprised I'm asking about therefore what was the point of your original reply? Which of my points were false representations?

You keep throwing employment laws at me re Moyes running down his contract and having a right to do so but again I'll ask if it's so acceptable why have we never seen it elsewhere from a manager?

It's Everton I've supported for 36 years not Moyes, if he won't commit get rid. He's done brilliantly in the past including the first half of this season but his current contract situation, poor tactics, team selections and inability to change a game when it counts have turned this season into another failure. We lost against Wigan due to poor tactics not lack of money, if just about every Evertonian can see Neville in midfield doesn't work then why can't Moyes? If we'd played 442 with Jelavic and Anichebe up front and Gibson and Felliani as the centre midfield pairing we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Why have you not seen any other manager run down their contract? What is unacceptable about it? You figure it out, its not difficult is it. Would you re-sign with no backing or no CL to push the club forward? He's as bored with finishing best of the rest as the all of us and does himself no favours as nothing will change.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes but my point is Moyes is as much if not more to blame for the clubs failings than lack of finance which has been my entire point from the start of the article.

Against Wigan and in many other games he could have played a more positive formation with the resources we do have. I believe that with the squad we have this season there are plenty of other managers who could have kept us fourth and kept us in the cups. Do you honestly believe we lost to Wigan due to lack of finances?

Moyes has had a rigid style for 11 years and seemingly manges to turn creative players and goal scorers into work horses, just about every team knows how to deal with us now which is why we will struggle to get a top 10 finish.

Cahill left, Felliani replaced him in the standard system which took a few teams by surprise, teams cottoned onto it and now we struggle to win games. We still build up slowly and always go via the wings, throw in the fact that we don't play to strengths of our most naturally gifted goal scorer and you have the main reasons we are on a downward slope.

As Moyes's strength is in nullifying the opposition I suspect a few rousing back to the wall attemps against the big teams we have left but little more, I'd prefer to see the team I support play to their own strengths rather than worry about the opposition. Moyes is very capable at providing stability but hasn't got what it takes to push on.

Moyes would not succeed in winning trophies with more money at Everton or any other club because he is not a tactically astute manager, his rigid formation would get played at home to Colwyn Bay or away to Real Madrid. His biggest concern is not losing rather than going out to win. Getting the best out of yor players doesn't just mean making them work hard and spending 90 mins shouting at each player telling them who to pass to from the touchline. It means building a team that gets the best out of all the players, playing to the strengths of the players who will win you games but also being able to change the formation to suit the opposition. To be a top 4 team you have to go out believing you can beat everyone and play to try and do so.

You've continually missed my points on the Moyes contract question, I understand Moyes thinks he can do better elsewhere however I question the morals of a man (See title of article!) who is willing to put his own interests ahead of the club he has managed for 11 years and see them lose out on compensation by him walking away and continually trying to kid us and maybe himself it is a perfectly normal situation for a football club to be in.

Thsi leads to my other point which is quite simply that the club should not be allowing it to happen and it has never happened before at any other club because it would not be tolerated! Is that clear now? As I stated right at the start of my article if he was a player he would have been sold (Just like he sold Pienaar in the same situation.

I used to have a lot of respect for Moyes and believed he had the best interest of the club at heart, that is no longer the case. At the start of the season if he wasn't commited he should have gone and we should have brought in a new manager. It is arrrogant and selfish of Moyes to believe his career is more important than the best interests of Everton FC and your are a fool if you think Moyes being bored is a good enough justification for the football club as a whole to allow him to take the piss and drag it down and undo all of the good work he has done in bringing stability to the club.

Finances didn't lose us the Wigan game of course,.

Neville was an inexcusable weak link in the starting XI but the performance wasn't just down that or formation etc, it is down to form. We're on poor form ergo, we play poor.

The formation of 4231, which is new this season and certainly not part of the rigid 11 years was - even with Neville in the middle, and bar one defender and 'keeper - the same formation and starting XI ripping up defences in the first half of the season.

So again, we're back to form. Which has us only on the last six games in 10th on the form table.

Moyes has forgone Jelavic in favour of Fellaini's impact on a game. It was working well for a long time, but yes, in my mind he should have taken Fellaini deeper and placed a ball player behind Jely like last season and for the best football we've played this season.

If he plays Fellaini up front against Man City I'd be... not amazed, because we know he likes his trusted methods to get through bad patches... but I'd find it disappointing.

You say Moyes hasn't got what it takes to push on, and financially I agree. All the teams above have so much more than he has. If you don't think he'd win trophies with more money... how would we know? But first steps first and top 4 is what he is capable of and though the squad isn't capable I would put our first XI up against anyone elses... supposing they were on form though! Backing in January to bring in Fer (real bid or not) could have reaped us so much, the same as Jely last January.

As for the contract... you're wanting compensation, yet he isn't moving to a new club. Who is supposed to pay us this compensation and why?

What would you do if you were BK? Bearing in mind that BK actually wants to keep him and cannot find the funds to satisfy Moyes to take the club further?

I don't take the parallel with Pienaar at all. One is a player, one is a manager. If BK wants to keep Moyes he can hardly force him on another club to gain the remainder of his contract.

As for the start of this season I think Moyes was incredibly committed. But he had so many seasons of not being backed by the board that it was, as we were all discussing even last season, a make or break season for him. Just like Fellaini.

Looks like its break.

Neville has been an inexscusable weak link in midfield season after season. At home against Wigan he should not have started ahead of Gibson, Hitzelsperger or Barkley in that position. After 11 years decisons like that are still being made by Moyes, still costing us games, still amking us one dimensional, still telling the opposition we're more worried about themthan playing our own game. That decision set the tone for the game and was not made due to lack of funds or available options.Moyes will say Neville had an off day rather than accepting Neville should never play in that position or that his decisons as amanger cost us games.

Our formation under Moyes has always been one upfront, a midfielder just behind, two deeper in midfield and two players (Not usually out and out wingers) who switch wings, doen't matter if you call it 451 or 4321 its never really deviated in the way we play it out on the pitch.
Sometime a change in formation is just what is needed when form drops, as you say Felliani back in midefield would be a good start and should have been done some time back,as should Anichebe up front alongside Jelavic rather than on the right wing when we're looking for some muscle up front or MIralles just behind Jelavic for a bit more guile. It's seeing these things and making thes changes that set mangers apart and again as you say I suspect Moyes will stick to what he knows and keep Felliani upfront against City,unless of course they've had a falling out.

I think with more use of the players we have available and by mixing up the way we play a bit more we could well still be fourth,teams know how to stop us and until we change something we won't get back to winnning games regularly.

I'm suggesting Moyes should have signed last summer so if we did lose him we'd get compensation rather than him walking away this summer and the club recieving nothing, back to the morals point. Let's not forget Moyes has had a lot of personal wealth amassed from his time at the club probably far more than his results deserve as I hear he is the 12th best paid manager in europe and we're certainly not the 12th best team.

I think Kenwright should have said either sign or go that way we have a committed manager that players can see is in it for the forseeable future (Whatever you may think in any walk of life people like stability) and if a job came up Moyes felt he was up to we would have gone compensation. It's the approach I think every other league club in the world takes to keeping hold of managers they want to keep so not an alien concept! Clearly I'm not, and never have been, expecting compensation from nowhere or Kenwrigth to try and sell Moyes on. That's just the way you've chosen to represent my view which of course is part of what all this is about.

In all honesty I don't think anyone, Moyes included, geniunely believed we would be able to keep all our players and bring in reenforcements in January hence my view it's just an exscuse for him to increase his chances of walking into another club, realtive success and no compensation to pay makes him a more attractive prospect than just relative success.

Back to the point of my article, Moyes is not the man of moral standing he has been portrayed to be and needs to look at his own management and tactics rather than hiding behind lack of funds all of the time.

2nd - agree again, but 4231 is different to his 4411. It allows Coleman and Baines to get further forward and the football is better too, at least when Fellaini is pulled back.

As for the contract, if Moyes was offered a contract at the start of last season I think he would have had the same reservations. Probably was and said to BK he needed backing.

However, I'm not sure compensation on managers is a simple as paying off the existing contract. But if it is, could you imagine any club coming in for someone and having to pay £16m for a manager? So why commit to another 5 years?

And no, maybe Moyes didn't expect reinforcements, which is why he's running the contract down.

I really don't view the contract situation as negatively as yourself yet I think we both agree as things stands he's taken us as far as possible. And he has a career to think of.

Its all very well saying he's doing the best for himself, and the amount of time he's put in its hardly a selfish move. If the club can;t back him to push on then he's not pushing on as himself a manager as he's had far too many seasons now in 7th.

Its a hell of a situation, but the 24/7 search hasn't brought up any results. Why repeat 7th each year in that case?

Because they are usually sacked or quit before their contract is up.

Anyone who is on a fixed term contract will usually have a notice clause in it, same as any open ended contracts.

Now Moyes may or may not have given notice, would you expect him or the Club to announce it if he had? Or his term of notice may not yet be in play, for example mine is currently 1 month, I have had 3 months notices before.

This means that if you want to quit you have to give notice, or if your employer wants to fire you he has to give you notice. But if you want to fulfill your contract but not renew it, it is polite to advise your employer that you won't be renewing, but not compulsory. After all they should know the terms of your contract and offer you another one if they want you to stay. Now if they've done that then they already know Moyes answer.

Eric @984. Thanks I'm fully aware how contracts and employment laws work but as I have said before football isn't your average job, football managers don't usually run down contracts. Your answer reflects my point that if Moyes refused to extend then for the good of the club he should have been replaced, simple as that. No other club has ever allowed this situation, it is not normal and it is not good for the club and that annoys me, simple really. An explanation of how it has happened does not enlighten me or change my opinion that the contract situation is having a negative impact on the club and starting to make us a bit of a laughing stock.

BK doesn't have the money to pay Moyes the compo he would be due if he was terminated before the end of his contract, or maybe BK wants him to stay and is in negotiations with his friends for the backing that is needed to convince Moyes to stay.

I don't know about you guys but I support Everton Football Club and want to see us playing entertaining successful football EVERY game not for HALF a Season or the odd game during the BAD half and losing every Trophy winning opportunity year after year and usually in an embarrassing fashion like the Wigan game.

There is only one man responsible for this and that is the MANAGER who supervises the training, picks the team, selects the tactics - a joke I know when applied to Moyes - , selects the substitutes and their timing and gives the Pre match and Half time 'Motivational' team talk - again as with tactical nous I have to laugh connecting Moyes and motivation.

Its Moyes FAULT that Everton are becoming a laughing stock.