Which ever side of the moyes fence you sit on its obvious that something is toxic within the club. Our season has ended and the final nail will be the RS overtaking us which is bound to happen. Something has got to give and that is most likely Moyes. Personally I won't remember him too fondly.

James, they've just overtaken us ! Fingers crossed for a Spurs equaliser.......

Well, there you go - there is a God after all. Or perhaps he's just toying with us.

You maybe right though i'm not sure how you can make such sweeping statements as 'No other manager in the Premier League would've picked Jelavic, Neville or Heitinga to start that game'.

Moyes was brought to bring stability and he did it, not to my taste but he did it.

The problem is the initial warning signs were ignored various "big game" disasters revealed flaws that made failure in the cups a certainty. He's NEVER changed, 11 years is a ridiculous amount of time for a club of this size to just "exist", this project should have been stopped years ago.

Barry, out of curiosity, what will you expect from Moyes successor?

I can understand the rationale behind the Neville inclusion as he played well enough there covering the marauding Coleman and Baines so the theory was sound.

The practice on the other hand was something else entirely.

As I stated on another thread everyone from top to bottom at the club has to take responsibility for that debacle not just David Moyes.

Players paid far too much failed to "get up" for a Wigan team they thought were going to roll over like they did for Liverpool and that's inexcusable in my eyes.

Sam Hoare- why wouldn't another premier league manager pick those players? try the truth...because they they are shit. Surely you can see that yourself? Those players are just liabilities. I was hopeful Jelly would come good, he has not and does not deserve a place in the team.
Neville? You saw his performance yesterday, and if you watch us regularly..this is he poor standard week in and out. The man simply has no skill whatso ever. I think he would struggle mightily to get into a top championship side I really do..because the man offers bugger all. He has no pace, he can't pass, he can't really cross well either..the only thing he can do is tackle, and even that has gone from his game now.

Heitinga again is a liability. He is having a shocking season..play him and you concede every single time. He should never have been picked.

There are your answers on the back of a postcard, the exact reasons why no other prem manager would have started them. all 3 are shit. That mean's essentially we are playing under strength, with 8 men. and those 8 men have to do the work of 11..don't you find that shocking?

You then ask Barry, would would you expect from the new manager?

I'll tell you what I expect. Some one who doesn't give in when matches matter, some one who isn't a one trick pony. Some one that understands tactics, and the ability to manage players. Some one than knows overseas markets, and is able to make solid signings..even he has to get them on the free.
I would expect him to get us silverware, regardless whether we have money or not.
To have ambition to continously improve and to the team and build a squad. It doesn't take hundreds of millions to do that. Unlike the shitty MLS we have quality players in europe, we can be brought here either on bosman's or on the free.
I expect no gutless performances. and to stop the rot of mediocrity. Is that enough for you sam or do you want more?

Andrew Sutcliffe - the manager bought the players, and it is him who played them..they did not pick themselves, he had resources available on the bench before he even named the team. It is Moyes who is responsible for making sure these players are motivated, and to big them up..he failed misrably. I don't care about the board or anything else for that matter...Moyes is responsible for on the field activities..and picking his squad.

It is down to moyes, he is the manager..he takes the blame when we fail..like he takes the applause when we win. Now it's time he pissed off and take Kenwright and the looser steve round with him.

Our season can now go two ways; either our manager and a few want away players just give up or, this humiliation galvanises the squad and we go on a great run and get some sort of euro footy next season. Moyes and Fellaini, in particular, are now in the shop window. If they want something "better" next season they had better pull their fingers out or else both of them will be in the championship next season.

Frida, are you trying to tell me that all other 19 managers would have started Shane Duffy, a kid who has not started a single league game all season? No chance. Maybe a few off them but certainly not all of them.

As for what you want from the next manager, I meant more where would you be happy for us to finish in the league?

Frida, you are correct he bought the players but that was a fair bit of time ago in some cases, can you hand on heart say he has had the opportunity or adequate resources to replace some of the longer serving players with like replacements? (I will come back to this)

I didn't say he was correct in picking them, just that I can see why one would pick Neville to cover in a midfield sweeper role in theory and rest Gibson who has a history of injuries for the run in of the league.

As to on the field activities, i'm afraid I disagree again. To say he takes that responsibility is bollocks, we have man of the match and values rise and fall on performances so players get a lot of credit when we win a game it doesn't all just fall on the manager so I refute the "manager must take the blame" argument, they are a team of internationals, well drilled and have been playing professional football for a long time, once on the field they should adhere to a a game plan set out by the manager, but david Moyes does not ask them to pass to the other team or give away free headers now does he? So they have to take some responsibility for the on the field performance surely?

Also as I stated earlier in another thread, this is Everton, it is the quarter final of the FA cup at goodison in front of a home crowd, if a player needs the manager to motivate him for that then he has no right wearing the royal blue.

This is in no way absolving David Moyes from the abject trash that was displayed at Goodison Yesterday but I can't let the players get away with what was a half hearted "turn up an win" performance whether they were correct to be picked or not, once out there they have to play to the best of thier ability and 90% didn't even approach 60%.

Back to my first point, you say you don't care about the board, I do, I care that we are heading back to the days when I was sat with tears in my eyes at the Prenton Park amongst Tranmere fans taking the piss when we were heading down in I think 97 against Coventry. We stayed up on goal difference I seem to recall (i drank too much to try and see me through it) and that was a massive low point.

I care that we have a chairman who has failed to supply his manager with the means to push on towards cup and league progression, I care we have a board that have assett stripped the club and left us on the bones of our arses whilst lying and trying to push through a mediocre stadium solution that would benefit his paymasters more than the club.

The WHOLE club from the board down must take responsibility for yesterday:

The board for not getting the reinforcements needed to compete

The manager for a wrong team selection

And the players for not giving a shit on the field of play.

Just when you think it is impossible for there to be any apologists left after that predictable (and predicted) pile of shite yesterday, here they come.

Well, personally I'd be very happy if you Moyes lovers piss off with him when he goes, I support Everton Football Club, like my dad, grandad and my son, not David fucking Moyes.

COYB, Moyes Out.......... At least 6 years too late and if I'd had my way at the time he'd have gone after the debacle of Bucharest.

What a juvenile post Robbie

Frida 709, many thanks you nailed it better than I could.

Sam the league position outside the top 4 has become irrelevant unless of course you get relegated. I don't subscribe to the money dictates all in the way most do there's always been huge financial diversity among clubs but this era has made coaches risk averse like never before.

Busby, Shankly, Clough, Kendal manufactured champions from nothing because they gambled on winning few of todays coaches show this mentality (Martinez, Di Canio, Holloway excepted). The Prem makes you instantly a millionaire so managers hold onto what they have instead of going for it. We have a side that could be top 4 but no-one is really surprised that under Moyes we're back to what we do best - frittering games away in a neurotic mess.

The real money impact is not I can afford "x" and you can only afford "y" it's "I like my lifestyle and I'm not prepared to gamble!"

See the fraudulent practice of coaches fielding the stiffs in cup competitions iif you don't believe me.

In answer to your question I want someone clever enough to realise this clubs best hope of glory are the cups!! the middling league position is neither here nor there, hopefully then we'll have no more Leeds fiascos which might lead us onto beating the Wigans and Shrewsburys.

Same old arguments.

The end of the "Moyes Project", if it is to be this season, will be a disaster as he will leave us with two players worth a fee, and a youth set up that has played about 120 minutes of football all up this season. I've said it so many times, Moyes knew what he was signing up for in 2008, and he has refused to think past his "2nd term". Just like the years four to eight of an American president's tenure can be a little self-serving, Moyes has used to last five seasons to surround himself with yes-men, and make friends with Hibbo, Neville, and Osman. You've got half a good footballer out of those three, as I think Neville was good for the club until recently. Can anyone believe though, that Redknapp offered us a million pounds for him not long ago?

We are a selling club, and the only way forwards is to realise this. Moyes is in charge of coaching at Everton, and so far we've seen more youth players leave than come through the ranks. He couldn't wait to get rid of Rodwell because he knew he was letting the kid down. Now he's in pre-emptive damage control with Barkley, talking the kid down whenever he gets a chance and not playing him unless we need a miracle. It stinks of, "You wanted him, you got him, and he couldn't dig us out so you won't get him again."

Being an Australian, I'm aware that change for the sake of change is a dangerous thing. John Howard spent 11 years in charge of our country and did wonderful things, then people got bored. What has followed is nearly six years of complete incompetence and infighting. I know that change is scary. At Everton however, change is needed.

Barry 771 - you converted me to your way of thinking a few months ago and that's why yesterday, and the subsequent draw are so infuriating - pure negligence by the manager and the team IMO.

As far as money's concerned we have exactly the same team as we had at the start of the season and they are unrecogniseable. Same players, same wages, same contracts.

I know the argument will be fatigue due to a small squad, which is eased by money but personally I don't buy it - a game a week? And if it the case why hasn't Oviedo, Barkley etc been given a run?

Personally I think Moyes has lost the team, and I think he's lost the majority of fans now too.

So Barry, would you be happy if we finished around 14th-16th for the next 5 seasons but maybe won the league cup?

Maybe I'd take that. But there would be a lot of complaining about all the points we dropped to 15th.

I'm not opposed to a change at all, frankly I'm a bit bored of moyes and his approach, but I do appreciate that his methods have gained us more points in the league than we might have expected and although you say you don't care I bet if we are sat in 16th after 6 months of a new manager you might start to. Hopefully that won't happen but I'm curious to know how much leeway the new man in might be given.

Mike, It's always been my bug bear with Moyes whatever good points he may or may not have quite simply he doesn't seem to get the best out of what he's got.

The very essence of a manager is making good decisions and the ability to motivate but you only have to look at the monumental fuck up of last years anfield debacle followed by his "I'd do the same again" two fingered response.

Now he has completely misjudged the contract caper to the extent I think he's lost his marbles - he simply cannot stay.

Sam my own view is it depends if he looks like he's got a plan, Rodgers for example was perilously close to being chased from anfield but he laid his cards on the table regarding his passing game took real action in getting shut of Carrol so people said hang on.

Now results are going his way (and it might be pure coincidence) but suddenly it looks like he knew what he was doing even though they won't win anything and they won't get 4th.

A small mercy about yesterday is Moyes will doubtless leave under a cloud now the worry was he'd win the cup and still go forever being our "Benitez" splitting the fans for years if the new guy didn't win the league in 2 games!

Ferguson still gets grief Sam, fans are never satisfied!

Excellent point about Brenda, Barry. How condident was everyone that we would finish light years ahead of the RS, as they couldn't buy a win with his methods. Now, not even half a season later, they're leaving us in their wake, and look like probably taking 5th with a fairly ordinary sqaud. Of course, there will be those that say, a squad with Downing, Sterling, Shelvey, Wisdom, Allen etc to add to the actual two good players they have was always going to finish near the top.

I have to say I always thought the RS would pull it together as even at the beginning of the season they looked pretty slick even if it wasn't quite coming together. I do think Rodgers is a good coach and would hope we could find someone with his mentality. Trust in developing youth, emphasis on technique, movement, posession football and the ability to counter attack when appropriate (something sorely missing from Moyes' team).

Let's not get carried away with how good Brenda is, after all we have hardly set the world alight and they are above us only on GD having played a game more. They have also spent an unbelievable amount of money in the last 2 years. Add to that the number of times they are awarded penalties when they really need them and you have a recipe for winning games which otherwise you may draw. There is something rotten in English Football and it needs to be addressed, even in a pitiful performance on Saturday, the referee was still hell-bent on awarding every free-kick to the away team, every 50-50 decision was going to Wigan.

Ordinarily Everton being behind DS on GD with a game in hand would have had us dreaming about overtaking them and qualifying for Europe, but instead there is a dark cloud hanging over the club, the reasons have been outlined everywhere on this website.

Now if Moyes can find it in himself to have a final flurry in the last ten games and really really go for it then we may still end the season on a high, but I think most of us realise that he won't and the season will end in a slow and painful manner.

Huw Jenkins the Chairman of Swansea says he is delighted that Laudrup has signed a new contract as it will help the club to plan for next season, I wonder if BK and the board have ever planned for any season.

Take Suarez out of that team and they'd be relying on an aging and slowing Gerrard to keep them together. For all their recent change in fortune, their defence is (at best) dead ordinary and they concede plenty (ie: about the same as us and we've got Johhny). Truth is, as disgusting as he is, the little rat is an exceptional footballer with bags of desire and imo, he, almost alone, is the difference (anyone else guilty of wishing him some horrible long-term injury?...Just me then). I personally am happy for Brendan Sound-bite to stay there as I really don't think he's anything special. I DO agree with Barry however that he appears to be...um - how best to put this? - erm.. no ditherer.

Kenwright has never given a stuff for what the fans think of him.I think that pursuading Moyes to take another deal-albeit short-term- will be his way of saying `up yours`yet again.He`ll paint it as a triumph for`the special relationship`the two of them enjoy and he`ll probably throw in an extra half million or so to ensure his man`s loyalty.

Kenwright knows that he was forced into a change he would be going into unknown waters.Would he be likely to find another manager who would put up with all his shit at transfer time?All the games he plays with `signing` new players only to find at the last minute that they`ve got the clap or some other mysterious impediment.

Most football managers are whores so the answer is probably `Yes!` But then comes the crunch. `By the way,you also have to positively guarantee me 40 points a season so my house won`t collapse like a deck of cards.And-and this is the most important condition-you have to keep saying what a great guy I am and how we`re as close as brothers and speak six times a day.`

Quite a few of these self-serving prima donnas might well baulk at those demands and that`s why I`m convinced we`ll be seeing `Davey`for some time to come.Lickspittles who can win 40% of their games are rare.That`s why `our man` has lasted so long.

t

As we have moved on to the RS, just a thought about them. They have been playing without any pressure all season, working their way up the league, so don't be worrying about them.

As for ourselves, I have been watching Everton for over 50 years and Mr Happy as made me start to hate football: Taxi and boat for Moyes to Germany.

ps: Evertonians are bitter and twisted and know it... Kopites are bitter and twisted and don't know it. All of a sudden, we have become their rivals again.

Neville Southall has got it spot-on! Gordon Clegg... sorry, Billy Bullshit, is so greedy asking too much to sell the club and that's why we're so static.