8 points better off than we were prior to yesterday's win, and still the brickbats keep on coming....

It's the MOB who are desperate; desperate to continue bellowing their graceless indignation at Moyes, at his eleven years, at his lack of a magic wand....irrespective of whether we win, lose or draw.

Well, I’m not sure that Mucha would have got his start but, given that Moyes has been trying to find a long-term solution to the right back position for around four years now, I’d say that Hibbert’s grasp on a starting place is looking increasingly tenuous regardless of what his fitness levels might be.

We proved today that if we have faith, then we can win against the big boys. All we need to do is beat them away and learn how to beat the easy teams and we can conquer europe!!

Oh alright, finish in the top 6 at worst and who knows maybe the dream is still alive.

You're right about the capricious nature of support. The TW poll was above 50% before the City game and growing, and is now under folling the result. Not even enough to elect a new Pope!

But hands up who would have put Mucha ahead of Howard before his injury? Mucha was a joke figure for all his time at the club.

And, though I agree with the posts sentiments about playing squad players Anichebe (another joke player) has put Jelavic on the bench before but did as he always does and gets himself injured.

Coleman too, lets not forget that he is ahead on Darlin' Pip for RB in the eyes of Moyes. And we were all bemoaning Hibbert's injury earlier in the season.

Once you get over Naismith is played more than Barlkley, and Oviedo is a fine replacement to give Bainaar a rest, and Neville's inclusion ahead of Hitzlesperger you have then run out of names. But those names are yes, vastly underused.

"Today, Moyes overcame those fears because he knew the MOB had rumbled him."

So when Everton lose its all Moyes' fault, and when they win its down to him reading TW and noting the MOBs had sussed his plans to undermine the playing squad? Rhubarb, Sir!

Moyes watched Lescott 17 times? Moyes also was the one who bought him. And transfer windows allow that luxury anyway.

But you're right. This manager is desperate. Thank the Lord for the divine force that props us up in 6th chasing Europe. Something the manager will never give up on even if many others have.

"Today" Moyes knew the MOB had "rumbled him"....sort of ignores the fact that MOTM Coleman has been a regular for months now.

I think May 4th will be the biggest day of the rest of the season. Arsenal, us and RS will be likely fighting for the 5th spot and we play them both away. I can see us beating or drawing against Arsenal but a defeat at Anfield is almost a foregone conclusion, why is that? Can Moyes actually go for one that has a lot of pressure on the result? All speculative questions and only May 4th will tell.

Yesterday was great but does not make up for the 10 extra points we could have from certain draws and two spinless Cup exits. A nice run of 10 straight wins would go well and might even give Moyes some credibilty in a season were he should have won something with this current team.

Hahahaha! That's true and im totally agree with, Phil.

One swallow doesn't make a summer, an equally valid question is why after 11 years does Moyes repeat the same mistakes? No answer from the love in crowd how about LIC? We have historically always done well against the trash with cash but that doesn't change last weekend's result or Moyes repeated failings does it? Also the LIC seem to steer away from Moyes's blatant avoidance of signing a new contract which would imply he is holding out for a better offer - integrity my arse.

Erm, everyone is aware to his mistakes, Gavin. Even Doddy. Always have been, and for as long as he repeats, always will be.

There's plenty of other threads dealing with the contract too, and the reasons are discussed by all no mater what side of the fence they sit.

Gavin - I don't see your point on the contract issue. You want him to go, so what difference does it make whether he signs a contract or not? He's keeping his employment options open, which is what anyone would do. It's not evidence of a lack of integrity at all. In fact, it's the other way round: if he signed a contract and then went elsewhere it would be dodgy. I have well and truly had enough of him, so frankly I'd be gutted if he signed a new contract!

Let's see what he does against Stoke without Pienaar and Fellaini. I'd like to see Oviedo and Barkley given a chance, but we all know Moyes will think 'this is Stoke' and we will end up with Neville and Naismith.

Nick, erm yes and if Moyes corrects his mistakes by playing the players the LICkers call the MOB mention week in week out and he gets a result do you not agree it sort of proves a point or would you split the argument that its neither proven nor disproven despite the end result?

Moyes has deserved the applause for the result this weekend, its a pity he has any level of defence or excuses to cover the shame of last week, the players to a man fucked up but he's the bloke paid very very handsomely to make sure they don't - you know that pesky manager role, tactics, formation, strategy, substitutions, reaction to how the opposition are playing against you, he's the one who has form for not dropping out of form players and stubbornly and steadfastly playing a formation and game plan when it isn't working.

Kev, I get fed up on the mythical shite aura he's given by the LICkers as if he's Mother Theresa. If he's such an honest an open man he should ask his wife if he can borrow his balls back for a day and come out and say thank you but he feels its time to move on, a lot of managers have done so recently.

Love this gem:

" A nice run of 10 straight wins might even give Moyes some credibility."

Re - integrity: He may have already made the decision to walk, and fear that if this were made public, it may adversely affect form; Or, he's waiting for the board to offer him a competitive war-chest to push on.

Surely Coleman was brought in as a long term replacement for Hibbert & Neville, and he's had the TWeb 'load a shite' award on several occasions, talking about the fickle nature a supporters.

Andy (#250) the game ain't over till the rotund female etc etc; who would've thought that Fulham would've turned Spurs over @WHL, so there's lots of points to win or lose and they will throw up some surprises, Spurs, The RS and the Arse are massive games, but knowing us we'll beat tham and lose to Stoke

Yes great result and atmosphere yesterday but it doesnt change a thing.A Moyes side will often win these type of games when they don't mean a thing.When the pressure to win is on we fall over time and again.As for those who say we all make mistakes Moyes isn't making mistakes its what he choses to do all the time,ie baffling substitutions.Mirrallas for Naismith???.After 11 years of this sort of nonesense you can hardly call yesterdays subs or all the previuos bad calls mistakes.Moyes goes saftey first when ever he makes a decision.

Moyes isn't all bad and we all know that but if only he would loosen the reigns
a bit and take a roll of the dice from time to time this team /squad
could do a whole lot better.Yesterday was a prime example of it.Moyes was acting out of his usual character on the touchline with his attacking intent and it worked.Why cant Moyes just say fuck it lets have a go at every team we play untill the seasons end?..You just never know if he would stumble on to something.

Why did that game not mean a thing? The pressure to win that one was immense. Naismith came on and won the ball that set up the second goal

Tony Marsh#270
"Moyes isn't all bad and we all know that"....seven years on Toffeeweb & for the first time I'm lost for words.

Hasn't this thread been hijacked a bit? Regarding Coleman, I don't think that he has much to prove. What he lacks defensively will probably come with experience. Offensively, he has to produce a better quality ball into the danger area from his foraging runs - although the pullback to Osman was fine. Yesterday was his best game for the Blues in my opinion.

As regards Mucha, again he had a very good game but it's too early to say whether he can challenge Howard for the number 1 slot (if he stays that is!). From the limited amount of game time that I have seen, his distribution is better than Howard's from the hand but I don't believe it's any better from the foot. In fact, I would go so far as to say his kicking is a little dodgy. With crosses, he again looks dodgy and certainly the decision to punch a few crosses yesterday that he should have caught puts him behind Howard in my opinion. I've yet to make my mind up on his organisational skills, his bravery and his ability to stop shots heading in the general direction of the post (all weaknesses of Howard, I believe) but the one big area that I think Howard trumps him is handling. We don't always appreciate just how good Howard's handling ability is. From everything, I've seen so far, I'd rate Howard as the better keeper - but it's nice to think that we've got a competent stand-in.

Tony, you say many true things in your post, the next 2 games will test the mettle of the man and his team. Being without Felliani and Pienaar offers up an interesting predicament for DM, does he go for the tried and tested, Naismith and Neville or does he try something different. I believe he will stick with what he knows and hope that those two players show the form that he must see in training. Whatever he does if we can somehow maximise the points from those fixtures then we will be in with a shot of European football, I wasn't expecting Spurs to get beat today and so that was a bonus. As for the Stoke game in little under a fortnight's time, it might be the time when the fans have to get behind the team right from the off and make it as difficult for the away side as possible then the team might respond like they had to yesterday. Just three more home matches after that Stoke game, if Goodison is bouncing in all of the remaining home games then we may still salvage a season to remember.

I would be absolutely made up if we did snatch fourth as SKY not for the first time this season refuse to consider us as contenders, at the end of the Wigan v Newcastle game, they seem to think it is an all London fight between Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal.

Phil, the points you raise are spot on but the only hope for change is Moyes walking in the summer.

His fear by and large permeates the support - cup debacles with letters to the echo are old hat it wouldn't be a Moyes season without at least one cup surrender only a relegation fight would see a meaningful fan revolt.

It was odds on we'd beat City they react to us as we do the RS but beneath the forum blather of "who better?", "miracle worker" etc Moyes has endured simply because he's a safe bet and so it remains.

Pointless analysing the whys and wherefores of his teams we all know he's not for change or adventure and if he stays we'll have exactly the same missed opportunities justified by the meaningless "challenging for europe".

Oh and all the excuses.

Barry #280
"It was odds on we'd beat City"...obviously not a "bookie" either then?

No Brendan just know me footy - ask any city fan who there bogey team is?

"Moyes goes safety first."

No shit: Defending a lead against the English Champions with 10 tiring men, and 20 minutes to go..to say nothing about Mirallas's dodgy hamstring, of course.

What do you expect him to do...go to a cavalier 3-3-3 formation?!

His two subs settled the game for us.

This sums up the MOB: "(the win) doesn't change a thing."

True..no win ever does....and his 214 wins count for nothing.

Brendan #276 cites Tony Marsh ""Moyes isn't all bad and we all know that"....seven years on Toffeeweb & for the first time I'm lost for words".

So there is not one thing Moyes has done that has been right? He has nothing good about him at all?

I really think it's time to give Oviedo and Barkley a chance against Stoke and Spurs. Neville and Naismith have stunk the place out all season, surely some of our fringe players can't do any worse then these two. Why can everyone else see the obvious but not David Moyes?

Brendan @ 276 When I say Moyes isn't all bad, he isn't. He does pick up some cracking players on the cheap which is his main strength. Moyes can nick wins like yesterday when least expected but lets us down when it really matters.

His major downfall is tactics and squad rotation – things he has never got right in all his time here. For me, Moyes is a 6 out of 10 football coach but gets a higher rating from people who don't watch us play... Probably scores a 7 because the chairman and half the fans are kept happy. Is that any clearer?

I think that you may have misinterpreted Brendan’s post somewhat, Brent. Rightly or wrongly, Tony has tended to be one of the more vociferous detractors of our current regime, so to hear him describe Moyes as “not all bad” is a momentous occurrence.

Erm... Gavin. I think those players have been called for equally on both sides, yet to define a victory by the use of those players in my opinion does not prove anything, other than footballers play football.

Its a preference of Moyes to trust as close to his preferred XI as possible. I would not get too hung up on which side of the fence people sit because the result whatever it be does not define that preference.

Both sides (how awful it is to say that) could draw up a pros and cons list on the manager and as such whichever side you sit shouldn't dictate what evidence you choose to accept or dismiss.

Thanks Aiden #318

Gavin #254, do you think that if Moyes was holding out for a salary increase that Kenwright wouldn't have already given it him by now?

Wally`s original post is a bit daft really. Coleman has more or less been a fixture in the side this season and, given that on Saturday he was preferred to even our skipper,there is little reason to believe he would not have been preferred to Hibbert as well!
I agree that never in a month of Sundays would Jan ever have got a game had Howard been fit.I bet there`s not a single Evertonian who, before Saturday,didn`t regard him as a disaster waiting to happen.I still think that way.
As far as Victor is concerned,only Victor is responsible for not nailing down a place in the side by now.He has had more than a hundred chances to do so but almost always reverts to type by spending so much of his time on the ground.Now he`s moved his arse a bit,perhaps he`ll find the reward that goes with it!

This post would be decent if it wasn't so short term. Mucha's had two good games. He's still the same keeper that threw the ball in the net against Chelsea. Howard has had unbelievable game sin the past for us and has also made mistakes. Just because the sub keeper has come in and done well does not mean that Moyes has dithered over him all these years.

Equally Hibbert has had some monumental games for us, most notably this fixture last season. So what if Coleman's ready to overtake him now? that's natural progression, its not Moyes dithering. What's worng with how NAichebe has been handled? Last year anything Jlevaic touched was going in, Anichebe was injured or not bothered when he did get on. This year Jelavic was igven a chance to regain his form, he didn't take it so Anichebe came in, he lost a bit of form too so then Jelavic was back, they've put pressure on each other. There's been times when Anichebe hasn't been good enough to play for anyone so he hasn't been in the team. Now he looks good enough to play for anyone so he's in the team. Just because he's playing like this now doesn't mean he alwyas was and Moye was holding him back. you could just as easily say Moyes has ushered this form out of him. You can't prove it either way, so a largely pointless post.

Doddy nails it in 427. Only Mucha was a surprise inclusion forced because of injury. Incidentally as well as he played yesterday I will be nervous to see how he copes under Stoke's long ball attack as he does look prone to a dodgy punch. Not that Howard is exactly all conquering on crosses!

In terms of Moyes staying or going I think not much has changed. If he receives backing then he may stay and I would back him to win us something and/or get us high up the table. If he doesn't then he will leave and I will be excited/a bit apprehensive to see who Bill brings in next.

Sam, I think Moyes is a dead on certainty to leave at the end of the season, unless the club is bought by someone who can provide transfer funds.

Kevin, I agree.

Unless we qualify for CL or kenwright gives him a good transfer warchest from the SKY money without having to sell too many of his best players. Both look pretty unlikely from where i'm sitting.

Regarding Mucha, lets just wait for the Stoke game and the ones following it.

Howards been here a rather long time now and you can build up a lot of ill will over that period. You can also build up a lot of good will on the back of one half decent performance.

Not that it was even that good. Mucha performed some of the basics of goal keeping well. Namely getting off his line quickly and blocking a couple of shots.

One, for me, after a weakish parry.

I personally think he looks to punch too much and looks fallible there. He also flapped woefully at one corner/cross.

If I was Pulis I would be right onto him.

Another element in the equation is if Mucha has a bad game at some stage. Lets see how he does after that, because thats the real test.

Confidence and pressure, massive factors and its how you deal with them.

Great post. Moyes has been far too loyal to Howard for too long. Whether Mucha is the answer time will tell but Howard is a liability and not good enough for a team with top 4 aspirations.

Phil, I think some of your facts are slightly wrong and there are some exaggerations in there, but I'm 100% in agreement with the general gist of your post.

Moyes usually plays the safe bet, he doesn't always play the best footballers, but those who are perhaps predictable. Unfortunately, this usually means young or "new" players overlooked, or misused. Anichebe wouldn't be half the player we're watching if he was shoved out on the right wing. I suspect Naismith would show a lot better if he were played behind Jelavic rather than on the wing. Coleman is finally getting a proper run at RB and looks fantastic. Mucha comes in and looks far more assured than Howard.

If we ever see Oviedo, Barkley, Duffy, Junior, Vellios and McAleny get a run in the side in their natural positions I'm sure we'll see some players there which are better than what we have. I suspect that it will be Neville and Naismith for the for the next two games though.

What I'd like to see is Moyes be even-handed and show the same patience with Barkley and our other youngsters that he shows with Neville and the other first teamers. It's not just Neville, though. How much patience did Cahill and Saha get? Howard's made loads of howlers yet we'd all be shocked if Moyes dropped him. Not because he didn't deserve it, but because Moyes is often far too tolerant of mistakes made on the pitch.

I don't think he should use our youth it because I want him to be more of a risk-taker but because in our position without vast sums of money, we absolutely HAVE to try to make the most of whatever resources we have. Who knows if Barkley could be a future star? We'll never know if Moyes remains, and certainly Barkley has probably lost a few years of development. He'll be another Leon Osman who gets his first senior cap when he's 30 because Moyes didn't start to play him till he was 24.

I won't comment about people changing their opinion of Moyes just because of the Wigan or Man City result. Those people are entitled to their opinions, but they are so fickle as to be worthless. The guy has been here 11 years. Everyone has enough information to base a decision on and one result should not change it.

Bobby, regarding Mucha, he probably needs a run of 5-10 games to really get match sharp, but he seems to do the basics well, and I like the fact he distributes the ball to our outfield, rather than always looking long.

Seamus Coleman is an example of what a run in the side can do. Mucha could be the same. If Duffy got a similar run he'd be a revelation. Perhaps Barkley, too. If we get Europa League we will need to strengthen significantly. If we have no money then we must develop what we have.

Heitinga was excellent on Saturday but Stoke are not what he needs; Duffy should start.

Well I got 3.30 on an Everton win on the early kick off. Bogey team / at home / following a disastrous performance. So I got on early and watched the odds blow out to 3.50 :S Easy money really, especially as Shit-eh were playing for a sniff of a Championship they don't give a fuck about, and Moyes probably told them he's staying and they're playing for their places. I've got no doubt Moyes had them against the wall and told them how important a performance was.

The arl fella texted me at half-time, asked me if I was surprised by the turnaround. "Not really" I replied, "Wasn't this the team we wanted to start in the quarter final?" "Exactly!" the arl fella replied. The emperor wore no clothes last week, and he's put them on today.

I don't see Saturday as a vindication, more as reinforcement of how fucked the previous week was. I suspect many Bluenoses are happier about the weekend because of the RS and Spurs unexpected defeats – events entirely out of Moyes's control, I should add.

We need nine more performances like that to get Europe in any form. And I'll bet my bollocks at a barn dance we don't get them.

Predictably the same people who were ever so silent last week when the pressure was on Moyes are out in force lambasting the MOB with their same old soundbites of this and that.

What I don't understand is how such a poor performance against the Wigan can just be forgotten because, God-forbid, our players and managers actually did their job and turned up to a home game and played well (extremely well mind). No acknowledgment that we've had form against City for the better part of four seasons now.

I don't want to take anything away from the players and manager for this win - it was fantastic. What it wasn't was amazing, because we know that these players are capable of performing like that (Mucha being the only real surprise). However, the shiteness that the manager and players put out last week cannot be put down to a bad day at the office.

As Tony and others have mentioned, Moyes shows a lot of good traits, but it's his bad traits that he's had since he became a manager that have never improved. A man still in his 40s refusing to address obvious deficiencies? Not the sort of man that deserves £4M a year with complete job security.

Here's the problem, Roman. If you criticize the manager based on a long-term judgement, then a fine result and performance can make you look churlish and nit-picking. Saturday was superb but it has to be balanced with Wigan and Norwich.

I don't think our season relies on what happens on the away games, I believe if we destroy Stoke it will all turn round.

Agreed, Andy.

Well said Wayne Smith. My feelings exactly.

"But does ANYONE really believe that any of this trio would have got anywhere near the team if the inadequate Hibbert and Howard were not ruled out by injury?"
-----
Yes, and no. And had you asked further on Anichebe rather than Jela: probably.

So I think he woulda said yes to either or two of the three. He made poor calls last week especially on no Gibson.