I'm sure he hinted previously his medical treatment was shit at Liverpool but in fairness they sorted Gerrard when he was having all sorts as a young player.

I reckon the lad was just unlucky having dodgy hamstrings; he was never the same once he started getting injuries. I remember Kopites ranting he hadn't put in a shift for a full 18 months before he left for Madrid.

The difference — the slight elfin kid zipping past Argentina's defence to score a cracker for England to his post Liverpool days fighting to simply control the ball — was stark.

With reference to Rooney, I think Moyes was handling the lad well. I never bought the bollocks that 'he's gone to the best place for young talent to be nurtured' regarding Man Utd. Since he got there, Baconface has hammered the kid with literally no rest at all. Rushed back after injury, played all over the park and not protected from his own youthful over-exuberance. (Who recalls him being left on the pitch in one of the last games of the season away at Chelsea, 3-0 down and he breaks his foot again ruling him out of the World Cup/Euros?) Rooney looks burnt out to me — and you can point the finger squarely at Carl Malden for that!

To me, the proof of the pudding is in the eating and Big Vic is an example of his faith in youth. So many people on this site have wanted rid of the big man, but the one person to keep faith with him, bring him along gently and look after him when injured, is Moyes.

"Get shut for a million" was the general feeling; the way he is playing now we are starting to bear fruit of a £5-million-plus player. All thanks to Mr Moyes.

How many minutes has he played for the first team in the last 2 years what would put him at risk of burnout? Moyes doesn't play him because he doesn't rate him as a first teamer and because he's unwilling to accept the occasional mistake he will make as he learns. It has nothing to do with burn-out.

I wonder what Ryan Giggs thinks of being played when he was 17? Doesn't seem to have done him any harm. Different players have different bodies. They get different injuries and stresses during their careers and they burn out at different rates. Owen has had injury problems for a long time.

Question I'd be interested to know is, if Tony Hibbert had been fully fit and we'd also had a fit first choice right winger for the last couple of years, would Seamus Coleman still be playing ressie football now? I suspect he would be.

There'd be arguments on here from people who say a kid who cost 60k and looks defensively prone deserves to be loaned out, and there'd be people like me who'd say that he should be given a run in his preferred position in the team because we need a long-term replacement for hibbert and quite frankly hibbert also has his shortcomings.

Moyes generally only goes for the risky option when his hand is forced. I think much less is planned than we'd like to think. Most of our youth players will be left to rot while Moyes is manager. Unfortunately for us, some of them have genuine talent and will probably leave us before we've seen them play. No doubt we'll also buy a few of them back in 5 years for a small fortune.

Just to give a timely example of someone who does not appear to have suffered that much from being played young... Ryan Giggs.

First league game (against Everton at Old Trafford) on 2 March 1991 – he wasn't even 17½. He became the youngest player to be capped for Wales. Still playing at 39 after 1,000 senior appearances...

What football knowledge are you referring to?

Whenever he is a pundit on the BBC or Sky he speaks the obvious or basks in the other pundits gushing at how wonderful he is and how well he is doing with little money and the other nonsense propaganda we have been hearing for God knows how long now. What about when he was the guest on the Beeb's Euro 2012 coverage? It was a Moyes love in especially with Lineker and Shearer. It made me sick. And he believed every word, like he was God's gift.

When in big games, such as Liverpool at Wembley or even at Wigan a fortnight ago has he shown football knowledge?

If he was the tactical genius you make him out to be we would have won at least 4 or 5 trophies by now and been consistent Champions League qualifiers every year, and for £4million a year he hasn't displayed enough "knowledge" to justify his huge earnings.

Look at the strikers he has ruined: Beattie, Saha, Johnson,The Yak, and until last week, seemingly Jelavic.

He thinks he is bigger than the club and is holding the club to ransom just so he can get more money from us. He thinks that he is untouchable because he is immune from the sack and has the media in his pocket. I hope he goes to a bigger team so the media can finally realise how tactically inept he is.

Just because he has improved the form of Coleman, it doesn't mean he is the best manager in the world and no he doesn't know what he is doing either. If he did know he would not have played Neville against Wigan or Heitinga at RB for nearly half the season. He also would have realised that we have an ageing squad and would have recognised the need for younger players like Duffy, Barkley and Oviedo to freshen the squad up.

And he wouldn't have capitulated shamelessly to Liverpool at Anfield last season, or in Europe, remember Sporting Lisbon or Dinamo Bucharest?

"Knows what he is doing", "football knowledge?"
Absolute nonsense.

Moyes or any other manager at Everton FC should be producing at least 1 first team player a year, 5 first team players in five years, but Moyes is not even close to that target!!!!!

Something must be wrong with our manager in order for this to happen. We need Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, he is a positive attacking manager with great faith in youth and also has the know-how of who to pick. If we could get Solskjaer as manager then I would very pleased. The winning mentality of this former forward is just what we need.

Owen's key asset was pace/acceleration when the injuries he hit he lacked the technical skill & strength to compensate.

While I'm not a total Moyes fan, I just don't buy into the "look at the strikers he has ruined" arguments:

Beattie (just a poor buy; not that good; what has he done since?),

Saha (nursed 3 or 4 years out of player who was crocked),

Johnson (Beattie with a better attitude; again, what has done after leaving Everton?).

The Yak (just not the same after his injury).

Tactical knowledge vs £50 million to buy whatever players you want...

Seriously, who is gonna win/qualify more?

Allowing the young players some game time would be more beneficial to the entire squad than continuosly playing tired players to the limit.

Amazing the bollocks can come from Ross Edwards above... but if he believes some mystical force has the club in 6th place that's up to him.

For every Giggs at one end of the bell curve the will be a Whiteside, Parkinson, Owen, Rodwell (?)

Some peoples bodies wear out quicker than others, James Vaughn

Rooney said somewhere that he has to drag himself out every week (rough gist) at 27.

Could be for some the sooner you start the sooner you finish is the rule.

Your blind loyalty to all things Moyes detracts from what you are trying to say. When Ossie was played every week, even you must have seen how poor he was at times. Surely he would have benefited from a rest, which is what most are suggesting?

Moyes does have his strong points, obviously, as 6th place demonstrates, but even you must acknowledge that he has weaknesses also.

In my view one of those weaknesses is his reluctance to give other players game time which results in the same players tiring or being jaded, as the Wigan cup tie demonstrates to me.
Perhaps if Osman was rested more often there would be more "Man City" moments from him?

Big lads like Anichebe and Drogba, Kone, Adebayor, Kamara and Lukaku can compete physically and that's why they cause trouble. It's basically horses for courses. Owen and Lineker are sprinters and the big lads are the jumpers. Rooney is in between, as was Shearer... they would be middle distance types.

Giggs is a one-off and for his size is amazing how much pace he has retained and his ball control and vision makes him a real star.

Owen was indeed finished at the top when he left Liverpool as he totally relied on his pace. He just hung around longer and clubs paid him good money for sitting on the bench. He was a top class striker for Liverpool and England but played on too long and for my money he tarnished his reputation for the sake of the money he received. He is a likeable lad though having met him.

His scoring record is appalling along with his injury record. Michael Owen had scored 158 goals at the same point in Vic's career and so far Vic has managed 25. Can we please drop the "he will come good" tripe because he won't. As a striker, he is now at his peak — and his peak is average at best.

Bringing the youth through and giving them a chance in the first team is certainly one of Moyes's failings. Vellios, Barkley and others would definitely benefit from a run in the first team and I agree with the person that said Coleman would still be in the reserves had it not been for a Hibbo injury.

I believe that Bill and the board are the problem, not Moyes. Just my opinion and what do I know... there must be a lot that goes on behind closed doors that none of us know about.

Remember people... It's a grand old team to support!!

You say:

"I wonder what Ryan Giggs thinks of being played when he was 17? Doesn't seem to have done him any harm."

Aside from the hamstring problems he had for much of his 20's?

He never got one as bad as Owen, im thinking the one he did at Leeds, and he was managed better. Maybe there was better medical advice. I think it would be fair to say Giggs hamstring problems, which it is undeniable he had, were managed much better than Owens and is one of the reasons he has been able to prolong his career.

Another element in the equation is Giggs is also just a much more all round, multi faceted footballer with the ability to change his game more than most players.

I also think Owen was mismanaged physically at Newcastle when as soon as he was anywhere near match fit they lashed him back in straight away. He would break down. And the cycle would continue again. Newcastle did Owen absolutely no favours as far as I can see and basically succeeded in shortening his career.

There was still plenty of goals and a player there. A different kind of player, just a box players really. Even by the Rooney 2004 Euros Owen was clearly not the player he was and was having to change his game for the team to accommodate Rooney. He was doing a lot more back to goal, having to play the lone striker role.

The move to the 5 man mids and lone striker was one of the main reasons Owen couldnt get a champions league club on his return to this country. The small, box playing poacher was well out of fashion and it was all about 6ft plus strikers who could hold it up and also go in behind.

Its why he ended up at a Newcastle in meltdown who proceeded to destroy what was left of him. The rest of it was the ghost of Michael Owen.

It pains me but Owen was simply different class even at 16. There would have been a riot if he wasn't playing every week. Yes its cost him long term but I don't think RS had any other option not to play him – you don't leave a player of that quality on the bench – even Hoddle had to learn that one for England.

Barkley is for me, a straight swap with Osman. Osman could have been rested for 10 games and Barkley could have played. Or Osman could have been subbed at 60 mins and Barkley brought on. Either way, Moyes isn't making the most from players at his disposal. Barkley needed at least 10 games this season and 15-20 games next season. He's 19 is he not?

I just don't rate Vellios; the other young lad McAleny looks a better prospect. Again, 15-20 mins to replace Jelavic would have done him the world of good.

There again, it's Football Manager thinking I suppose...

Maybe they should have had more backbone and left him on the bench a little more, as Moyes did with Rooney. The point being simply that almost no teenager should be that dominant or be that dependent on them.

http://www.aboutmanutd.com/man-u-players/ryan-giggs.html

Kicking off from his first full season in 1990-91 Giggs, in all comps STARTED: 41, 45, 50 games. Total games including sub apps is: 51, 46, 58.

Giggs had a fair amount of hamstring problems in his 20's. Look how the league apps drop off. Not all down to hamstrings, the squad game has come in. That, pitches, rule changes, managing his body and the ability to change his game has kept him playing.

Another important thing to remember is that United generally did their best not to release him for international duty. They protected him. Giggs has also always get the summer off with no tournament football.

Owen would always be playing for England on top of this and would be playing tournament football once every two years.

Owen seasons at Liverpool, kicking off from the 2003-04, his TOTAL games played were: 44, 40, 30, 46, 43, 54, 38. These are figures not giving the detail on starts and sub appearances. That's total apps in all comps. By 2004 (38 games and England Euros) he was a different player even when at Liverpool.

Owen got older and changed his game. For me, what was left got properly fucked up at Newcastle who destroyed what was left of a still very good goalscorer.

Owen tried to remain in the Premier League and I can well remember times when we even considered signing him even though he has been past his best for quite some time. Signing Owen would not have suited us as his work ethic does not come up to what we expect from a striker. We expect a total workhorse who scores goals!!

We seldom had two strikers up front and Owen always did best when he was with a big striker alongside him. He has never been a lone striker because he is not big enough and strong enough. Every fast small striker has to have a strike partner... Lineker was ace with Sharp, Keegan and Toshack, Defoe with Adebayor etc etc.

Nowadays, it's big guys who are the main strikers in a lot of the Premier League teams and they are the type of players who give us the most trouble. Ball-playing sides are the teams we do better against.

Actually the way in which Giggs development was handled was used as an example of how it should have been done at Liverpool with Owen (both by the interviewer and Owen himself, during the football focus interview).

Whilst you are correct (that Giggs made his debut at 17 1/2, the point made by Owen was that Giggs was used sparingly, really for the first 4-5 years of his career – not really becoming a regular, first choice, first team player until ~95, whereas Owen was thrust straight in as first choice as a 16 year old. Owen seemed to be of the opinion that if Liverpool had used him in a similar way to how Manchester United used Giggs, then he may well have been able to extend his career. A supposition, of course.