Osman has been 'carrying' Everton

For me he's a player who, on his day, gives us something extra through his creativity and abilty to pick his pass (beautifully weighted ball behind Kolarov to Coleman on Saturday, for example) and I'm chuffed for him to get international recognition.

That goal against city that stopped us falling further into post FA Cup depression was a great goal and not scored by Baines, Fellaini, Mirallas, Jelavic, Coleman, Gibson or any other of the headline makers.

I agree with Dave W – "unfashionable" player but a better role model for kids than many.

However, like the rest of the team, he has been out of form for months. He needs a rest and I honestly hope he stays on the bench tonight.

There have been occasions when a rest for a match would benefit the player but Moyes is reluctant to do it. Osman deserves all the praise he gets right now. He also deserves a break.

The whole team has dipped in the past few months – something largely caused by the lack of depth in the small squad.

I'm always nervous when Everton players go to the North London XI. They're so often injured or "tapped up" in a meaningless fixture. So, I'd also prefer he didn't play tonight.

Assuming Mark T is simply a wind-up merchant.

Speaking to the Everton website, Moyes expressed his concern over the number of games Osman has played this season.

"Ossie, if you were being fair would probably be the one who, if anyone, could probably do with a week off just now because he's played all the games.

Hmmm not really "joined up thinking" there is it?
Too many games (but I haven't rested him) — Potentially more games (but I'm delighted at this)

Sometimes, Davey, you get EVERYTHING right...
BUT
Sometimes, you just bewilder me!!!

Overall he has had a great season. I read that there are only 12 players in the Premier League who have completed more passes and his success rate of over 85% is very impressive. Yes, he is a little lightweight and his shooting is far from consistent but he has been a vital ever-present for us this season and some of the abuse he takes on here makes a mockery of the term 'supporter'. He fully deserves his England call up and this praise from Moyes.

Manager after manager will keep lumping Gerrard and Lampard together in the middle and then scratching their heads about why England can't keep hold of the ball. Probably the same 'names on a teamsheet' approach that lumped Rodwell and Fellaini together – much to popular acclaim on here until the great mystery arose of why we played the worst football ever with them in the team.

As for Everton, Osman and Pienaar have just done far too much work for us this year and it has shown in recent weeks. Gibson's and Mirallas's injuries, Moyes's implementation of Fellaini behind an out-of-form Jelavic just puts too much strain on the creative forces in midfield.

When Osman, Pienaar (and Baines) are playing well, then everything about Everton looks good. When they're not, we have to rely on scrapping it out with our quick strong players... then we realise we don't have any and get walked through by some of the league's most average sides.

Far too many players just play safe balls to either of these two and then just expect them to conjure a bit of magic. They've shouldered far too much responsibility this season but yet have taken the brunt of the criticism at times which is the standard way for this site.

If you had money to spend on an injured Dutch player, you should have bought another player — that's what you get paid £4 million a year for... that's why I hope you leave in May.

Yes, he is consistent — not consistently good but consistently picked by the adoring Moyes.

Most of his passes are five yards from side to side and when he tries one forward of any note it's usually picked off. If he has to track back, he is usually trailing the player he is chasing vainly and never getting in the challenge.

The odd goal he gets does not compensate for any of his shortcomings that Moyes does not see. For me, his getting picked for England is just a joke but then so is Hodgson.

Baines? Only go as far to say one of the best players for his position in the PL.

Oh jeez...

Good technical player, shame he's not a bit stronger and quicker, he'd be more of a 'complete' midfielder.

In my opinion Osman has been well off form, and is one of a number of players who have been carried at certain points since Christmas and before. Pienaar and Neville are others.

Either through lack of depth or point blank refusal of Moyes to use the squad, Osman has got far more games than he should have.

Mark Dunford, perhaps you'd be happier in North Korea!

Apart from that he's shite.

Myself I think he is under-rated, a talented player with an evident 'flaw' of lack of physique - as well as some flimsy shooting. He offers quick feet and decent passing and workrate. But often on forums it's hard to offer a middle ground, it all becomes about the more polarised opinions trying to prove each other wrong.

Since when have we had the resources to rest players, yes we're 6th but we have a GD of only +10 because we don't win games by 2 and 3 goals that frequently.

Even if we did with no europe, out quick enough in the league cup there should be no way that any of our team are burning out.

I am proud that we are providing options for Woy but at this moment in the season, injuries to either of Baines or Jags could be detrimental to our season.

He needs a rest but when you have such a small squad.....

He scored the only goal in our 3rd round cup win in 2009; he scored to get us back in it verses Liverpool in the last derby! He bagged what many believe to be the finest team goal in Europa Cup a few years back... so he ain't Messi, but he's been the only Blue in 10 years that shoots on sight, with both feet, while others have tried to walk or bundle it into the back of the net.

Cut the lad some fucking slack, he ain't no Billy Big Bollocks who thought he was bigger than this club & wanted out after 10 fucking minutes, like others I could mention.

Also what evidence is there that Baines is burnt out - I think its nonsense. Ashley Cole has about 5 years on him and he played in Euro 2012, Champions league, Europa, FA Cup, League Cup etc.

Players like that need a rest not Baines or Jags.

Yes, Ian, "rest and rotate". Some of the posts on here are acknowledging the fact that Osman, Pienaar and maybe Baines are knackered. Consequently they are not performing at their peak effectiveness. So what's wrong with resting one and giving Oviedo game, or Mirallas swapping from right to left wing? It doesn't matter whether Cole is 4 years older than Baines, different players have different "built in" levels of fitness and maybe the amount of work Baines gives us is has had a greater affect on his fitness. Yes, a bigger squad would be great, but we haven't got one so maybe Moyes should use the one he's got to greater affect. Maybe if he had a squad of 50 top players he'd still use the same 12. Plus Neville.

Agree with you we should be seeing more of Oviedo.

'Built in' in quotation marks - did you study physiology, is that the technical term, people that say things like that also refer to 'match fit' and there is an alternative argument that you need to play regularly to keep yourself at that level - everton haven't had midwek games in europe and our players haven't been over extended internationally either. Osman played once, Baines minimal, Pienaar retired from International football.

I thinkm people are confusing burn out with a deep in form. If our players were burnt out we simply wouldn't have been able to beat city or hold out with 10 men for 60mins. I really don't think burn out is a credible argument.

He's a lovely fella and a good Evertonian on and off the pitch, but can anyone tell me, in all sincerity, when he has ever dominated a game with his alleged 'silky skills', or brought Everton back into one - in more than 300 appearances.

All I see is a guy who gets overrun by anyone with a modicum of strength or pace and remains anonymous, apart from an occasional, mostly ineffective touch, or one of his trademark powder puff 'shots'.

Yes, I know he scored a cracker against Citeh at the weekend and another good one against Cheltenham in the FA Cup a few years ago - but really, has there ever been a more ineffectively ever-present player in the past 30 years?

He also looks a bit tidy when occasionally linking with Pienaar, who is twice the player Osman is. But that's about it.

I am NOT knocking the guy, as he has never done anything wrong, but I am convinced he is one of the main reasons why Everton have never pushed on and moved up to that next, hitherto elusive, level.

I mean, can you ever imagine a member of the opposing midfield ever thinking to himself: "God, I'm up against Leon Osman today'?

No, neither can I.

The second part of your argument is just hearsay and purely assumption - you're suggesting that Cole perhaps has this superior level of fitness to Baines, Osman because of some innate ability - may be true but unless you work with Cole and Baines on a daily basis you're not in a position to make that call and who is to say that Osman isn't a player that trains fantastically and has great natural fitness, perhaps better than Cole? Not you or I.

As said before I think the Wigan -City transformation has nothing to do with fatigue or burnout and it supports my argument that it was just a dip in form. It also showed why rotating our best team shouldn't happen - there is no way that Neville should have started instead of Gibson. If our players were exhausted from a long season I don't see how they could beat the champions (who do rest players and rotate) and hold on for 30mins with 10 men - a burntout side couldn't do that!

Not sure that resting players to prepare us better for suspensions is a winning model either.

Really?

Moyes is right to praise Osman and Mark T and colleagues are churlish to decry a good player. Osman is a tidy, effective midfield player who seems to be strangely underrated by many fans and - like other home grown players who make the first team - has become the frequent object of abuse in stupid postings. He has played well for most of the season, something acknowledged by an international call up, but his form dipped in the period after xmas and is thankfully showing signs of returning. Ridiculous to say Osman is "one of the main reasons why Everton haven't pushed on to that next, hitherto, elusive level". Err, the finances? Squad depth??

Interesting to suggest he wouldn't get in any side above us. He gets in the England team (it would seem), does that mean you think we'd finish above England if they competed in the Premier league?

Equally, let's suppose you're right and that he wouldn't get in any side above us, does that qualify him as shit? Is that your criterium for identifying a shit player, one that wouldn't get into any side above Everton?

Presumably Heitinga was replaced on 65mins as at that time we were 3-1 down so defending wasn't so much the priority.

Who has he ever dominated?

When has he ever picked the game up by the scruff of the neck and turned it in our favour?

How many times in 300 games have you, honestly, gone home and thought, 'wow, Osman was brilliant today, he won the game for us'?

Balance that with how many times you've thought 'was he playing today?', 'why didn't he shoot?' and most times when he does: 'why can't he shoot?' etc etc etc?

Yes, there are other reasons why we have not moved up a gear, but in my opinion he remains one of the principal ones, he's a mid-table squad player and we will struggle to win anything with people like him in the team.

Geoff Nulty, Ian Wilson, Mike Milligan and now Leon Osman. Nice guys who perennially come second.

Like I said, whoever would fear playing against him? That's the acid test.

Take some of the best players in the world that are of similar stature to Osman - Silva, Xavi, etc - very good players but more likely to be referred to as clever/tricky and not scary.

Very different to someone the size of Benteke or the pace Hazard.

I can think of loads of times that Osman has won us games and some great performances. I guess the 04/05 season springs to mind - last min winner against portsmouth, away at villa. Also remember finishing 5th ahead of villa and he got a brace at craven cottage. Away to SK Brann - and my memory isn't the best either.

He just never 'bosses' a game like those you have mentioned. You know what I mean.

He is not a match-winner a fraction as often as he needs to be to help the team find an extra gear when needed.

Riight

It's weird (yet predictable) that this thread has turned into a he's shit/no he isn't fight, as Moyes only refers to Osman as 'one of the players' who's been carrying us.

Besides no matter what you think of Osman, all it is is a manager bigging up his own player. Outrageous!

I'm not suggesting Osman is Toure, Essien or even Gerrard, but as Ian (226) points out he isn't that type. He is, however, miles better than the players cited by David (214). Moyes is still right, and Sam (231) is correct to point to the full quote and his description of the player is equally accurate.

He's good, but just not good enough - and I think that is one of several potential percentage improvement factors currently holding us back.

Consistently gives the ball away
Consistently goes missing in the big games
Consistently does not put a tackle in
Consistently gets knocked off the ball
Consistently shite in front of goal

Then again, we could put Osman in the Carlton Palmer / Micheal Ricketts / Geoff Thomas mould of Internationals... There's always a few who get in even though they are shite. I don't get it one bit, this Osman lark.

I'm not suggesting they get harassed every time they play, but fans surely have a part to play in voicing their hugely-undervalued opinion on here and at the games.

The 'wisdom of the crowd' can collectively see changes that need to be made that the manager is unaware of, or refuses to implement.

I'm all being being loyal and polite - but they are not qualities that Alex Ferguson embodies and his teams do quite well.

And I know Giggs and Scholes still figure in his plans, but not every game like Osman, who I can still see being possibly the first name on our teamsheet for years to come.

He's not the messiah, he's just a very shorty boy!

The truth is he's been poor since that time — but he hasn't been alone. Yes, he had a great game last week... but he was one of a great team performance.

I honestly think Moyes looks at this site and, when he sees the criticism of any player, thinks to himself, "Who the fuck do they think they are?" That's the arrogant nature of the man — he's proved in the past he doesn't give a flying one about us. So why, after 11 years, would he change?

If Moyes thinks all is forgiven after the Wigan game because of that magnificent performance last Saturday, he's deluded. We will never have a better chance of getting back into a cup final —ever!!! Not while he's manager anyway.

As for people suggesting players are burnt out, tired, etc... what an insult! We haven't had the so-called distraction of the Europa League or the latter rounds of the League Cup to contend with most of our players, even if they play in every game, wouldn't play 50 games.

Yes, we understand how quick the game is but surely given how fit they are they should easily cope with this so judging by his comment if Moyes decides to stay. Expect to see Osman in midfield when he's 45.

Completely correct. Strange, isn't it? Moyes is a shit manager, yet he is rated very highly by everybody within the game. Osman is a shit player, yet somehow he has accidentally landed in the England squad. Given these constraints, it's lucky that we have such a fantastic Board...

I wonder how many will submit their CVs when Moyes leaves? But hang on, why wait for Moyes to go? With such unshakeable conviction in their opinions, why do they not apply for other roles? The Reading job is available, for example? Carpe Diem! Prove the industry representatives wrong, prove Ian Ross right! En masse we are nothing but drunken knobheads!; Moyes is shit, Osman is shit, Coleman a defensive liability, Howard is shit, Mirallas is brilliant and should NEVER be subbed (you don't know what you"re doing Moyes!), Barkley should start, Duffy should start, Vellios should start, McAleny should start, Oviedo should start, Naismith is shit, ad tedium, ad nauseum, ad vomitum.

The transition to a digital world that has taken place over the last 20 or so years has been truly astonishing, has changed our daily lives. What a crying shame that it also has reduced debate to it’s own binary state foundations. As George Bush famously said, you’re either with us or against us. A truly sad moment.

Football has been part of my life for over 50 yrs and doubtless for others a good deal longer it's not right to suggest such people don't know about footy.

Admittedly I never played at pro level because I wouldn't go to liverpool when asked and I discovered women at about the same time.

Mourinho was an interpreter who never played, it's a simple game made complicated by people with their noses in the big trough trying to justify their huge salaries

doh!

P.S. - If you want lecture us thicko's, I wouldn't repeat anything those two fuckwits had uttered to a bunch of chicken eatin' flag wavin' patriots!

Maybe when you discovered women many others did too - but maybe a few didn't and pursued their coaching badges instead.

Lets be perfectly honest there is a shit load of evertonians that love our club but when a game is played should really keep quiet as their tactical insight is crap. Let's assume that every 40+ something fan has played semi-pro (they haven't) but what about the fat 18+ fans that talks like they have played like Baines or finished like Jelavic, they are not in a position to judge.

PS I have no problem against fat people or those 40+ plus but everyone is an Alan Hansen in the crowd and on TW and its bollocks.

Is every fan a Mourinho or is he the exception to the rule?

To think, you're not wanting to go to the big city and discovering girls prevented the rest of us swapping "The Rath of Bone" Everton Legend stories right here.

Life's funny. Hopefully, one or 2 of the girls got to.

England's problems have in part always been due to our valuing of endeavour and effort over other qualities, as seen in knuckle draggers like Milner and that overrated dog Gerrard.

Sorry, Davey, I never knew that such traits as shitting out of tackles, getting thrown off the ball, giving passes away, being greedy in front of goal with shit shots, and generally being a non-entity on games (bar a few exceptions, eg, Man City) were the fundamentals of an all-action midfielder who single-handedly takes on the opposition.

I actually feel a bit bad saying the above as I don't really want to slag Osman off – more so emphasise the point that Moyes's adoration of certain players is beyond a fucking joke.

Roy Hodgson seems to rate him. Just sayin'.

They may give the ball away at times but certainly much less frequently than anyone else in the team. They're usually attempting defense-splitting passes too. For some of our team, it's a challenge just to control the ball and pass it two yards backwards, but hey at least they kept the ball.

Had these two been injured when Mirallas and Gibson were, then you may as well have written off the entire middle half of the season.

Just sayin...

Hard cases make bad law. Even Alex Ferguson has dropped bollocks in the transfer market, eg Juan Sebastian Veron. The question is whether one believes that Osman has played well enough this season to justify his inclusion in the England squad. I do, others may not.

Man Utd in 2010, Ossie totally owned that game. Was the best player on the pitch by miles and if it weren't for the media hype around Rodwell's 5 minute cameo, would have got the plaudits he deserved.

Ossie is the type of player whose work is noticed when the payers around him play well. In a good team he is one of the best, but he can look a weak link when the team is off form.

One thing is for sure, he'll be here until he's 36/37, so the haters better try and like him or your gonna have some heart problems.

"Yes, Amit, lets put Duffy in against Benteke at home for a nice easy game.
Really?"

Yes really. It's Christian Benteke, not Lionel Messi in Villa's attack. Duffy has the physique and poise to match him. Heitinga lacked the physique and confidence.

Duffy and the other squad players can do a job for 2-3 home games against the lesser lights. We don't need to stick to the same 15 until they are run into the ground.

"Ossie is the type of player whose work is noticed when the payers around him play well. In a good team he is one of the best, but he can look a weak link when the team is off form."

Excellent point; people notice his mistakes more than they notice his good work.

The problem has been we have usually had too many good players in central midfield in Osman's time here. Just to name a few: Gravesen, Carsley, Arteta, Fernandes, and Fellaini...

Well, watching Fox Soccer this morning and they had a "Goals of the Week" segment. Didn't matter what club or country, just Top 10 best goals. Osman's blast was 7th. Fucking 7th!. Whose was #1? A routine, 12-foot header in by Chelsea's Frank Lampard.

Fuck me.

Well said mate, Agree with absolutely everything you say and I couldn't have put it better myself. He is average along with Neville and Hibbert.

Well, there you have it. Fuckwittery even extends to the US media. Who'd've thought it?

Anyhow, I realize now, being in ToffeeWeb, that not all folks from Liverpool give a shit about England's national team (just an observation, not a critique).

My view is that England will do well to have Ossie in to give the squad a fellow in the midfield who can handle the ball well. Plenty enough athleticism/muscle around him.

When he played against Sweden he slotted in superbly. He kept it well and played some really well-weighted passes.

His problem? he is not 6'2" & can't run a marathon every game.

You can justifiably question his athleticism, but certainly not his pure football ability.

I also recall wondering why Osman had allowed Moyes to select Hibbert for one of the most draining fixtures of the season despite the fact he was just returning from an extended break due to injury, seemingly so that Neville could be accommodated in midfield.

I also recall Drogba scoring the equaliser after trotting past Cahill, who didn't bother to track his run, & being 'challenged' by Lescott, who seemed oblivious to the strikers presence until it was too late.

I also recall that as a team we seemed to sit back with a view to holding on to a one-goal lead for almost the entire match – obviously a strategy imposed on the team by Osman.

However, I think it's the other way 'round: he simply isn't as bad as people think he is. If he didn't have any of the flaws his detractors lambast him for then we would have sold him for £20mill+ quite a few seasons ago. Maybe the frustration lies in our not being able to afford better.

Apart from the big money spent on Fellaini, they have had loan players such as Donovan and Drenthe along with several others who Moyes brought in and then decided were only good enough to warm the bench.

Despite what Moyes says it is evident that Osman is not carrying the team and on the contrary is just evidence of Moyes's folly. He merely spouts this now after a great goal against Man City but he didn't say it after the Wigan game did he?