Rob Sawyer in conversation with Director Daniel Gordon
Casting aside partisan rivalries, Evertonians have stood shoulder to shoulder with Liverpool supporters for 28 years in seeking justice for those affected by the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Merseyside's sense of solidarity is a key factor whilst Everton supporters don't forget that, had the semi-final draw been different, they could have been in Sheffield that very day.
It is a lifelong Sheffield Wednesday supporter, Daniel Gordon, who has produced, what is held to be, the definitive documentary about Hillsborough. Embargoed from being screened in the UK until the new inquests in Warrington were concluded, it finally aired on the BBC in May 2016. I caught up with Dan to get his personal perspective on the disaster and the making of his landmark documentary. This article is dedicated to the campaigners for justice over the Hillsborough Disaster and to the memory of The 96.
I was born in Sheffield on a Wednesday. It was very much a proper football background in that you are given the team you support and taught loyalty to it through thick and thin at a very early age! I grew up in Manchester as a Wednesday fan in the late 1970s – you can imagine what that was like surrounded by United and City fans. Quite a few of my mates supported Liverpool as they were winning everything back then.
I started going to Hillsborough in 1978-79 when they were under Jack Charlton. I was a season ticket holder from the second season I went — going to home and away matches with my dad. By the time I went to Goodison in 1984, it was my 35th ground visited. I am still in exactly the same seat at Hillsborough in the South Stand and I take my two daughters along with my mum, my sister and her boys.
I wrote a book on Wednesday in 1995 and from there Sky Sports asked me if I could set some Wednesday-related questions for a sort of fans “mastermind” programme they were doing. The official club historian had wanted payment for doing it so they sought someone else who would set the questions… someone young and knowledgeable – and most importantly who wouldn't charge! I agreed to do it as long as I could attend the show being filmed and meet the producer. Then I badgered them to give me a job. So that's how I ended up working for Sky Sports for 3 years from 1996.
I worked on Soccer AM and a documentary series. Then I moved to Chrysalis who were covering Italian football at the time – I did a couple of projects including the ‘Michael Owen's Soccer Skills' series (I still have a photo of me and ‘Big Nev' Southall from it somewhere). In 2001, I decided to form my own production company, VeryMuchSo; its first project was a documentary on the North Korean football team at the 1966 World Cup (which featured Goodison Park). Since then, I have been doing feature-length human stories with a sports background.
Match-Going before the Hillsborough Disaster
Everyone going to matches was aware of the dangers of terraces but took it as ‘normal'. The surge, especially after a goal, was quite a thrilling thing to be part of — it was a really intense emotion that you went through. Now you look back on all the near misses you have had and you realise every ground's away end (with the possible exception of Highbury — which had no fencing) was an absolute shit hole. I think that the clubs have always treated the fans with utter disdain, home and away. If they had given a monkey's, they would have provided better facilities.
These were grounds that were getting older — Hillsborough was 90 years old in 1989 — and clubs were more focussed on “security” features. They would be happy to put a fence up but not a kiosk for half-time or covered toilets. It's ridiculous. The comfort of fans was never a priority. Once they stopped serving alcohol in the grounds, it made it even less appealing to be in the ground early. I wasn't 18 until 1990 but even for me, there was nothing to get in early for. If you were standing, there were no proper toilet facilities, nowhere to buy a drink or eat anything decent. My dad used to be quite prepared with a flask and biscuits for half time but not everyone was. That's what it was like.
In the mid to late 1970s, clubs began to erect fencing – especially for away fans who were felt to be more ‘problematic'. The fence at the front of Leppings Lane went in during the late 1970s with the penning added in the 1980s to meet Division One ‘standards'. I never went into the away terrace at Everton as it was very shallow. I remember The Dell at Southampton - you could only see about a fifth of the pitch. At Newcastle in a promotion game in 1984, I had a really bad crush injury from a concrete crush barrier - that was horrendous. We also got crushed outside Grimsby's ground on Boxing Day that same season as we had so many fans and it couldn't cope. You were always aware that this was how you were treated — I got hit by a police truncheon at Old Trafford for climbing up on the fence as I celebrated a Wednesday goal — I was only 13 or 14.
What shocked Wednesday fans about the Hillsborough disaster — apart from the sheer scale of deaths and injuries of course — was that we prided ourselves on having one of the best stadiums in the country. But if you speak to any away fans they will tell you how shocking it was in the Leppings Lane end but, of course, as home fans we never went in there, and if we did it was never on an occasion where the end was a sell-out.
My recollections of The Disaster
I was meant to be at the semi-final game at Hillsborough in 1989. There were no neutral tickets on sale so the only way to get to the match was to help out. I was going to help my mate at the Supporters' Club — either stewarding or selling programmes. At the time, I was studying for GCSEs and, the night before the game, for whatever the reason (probably my mum nagging at me!), I decided not to go. I later found out that my mates were counting programme money in the gymnasium when they started bringing the bodies in.
At the time, I was out delivering leaflets for my mum and I'd seen through someone's lounge window a TV showing a Norwich player walking off crying at full time, so I knew Everton had won their semi-final. I then called my Dad to pick me up. He told me that he had some bad news. The only bad news I could think of as a 16-year-old was that Liverpool had also won and that it was going to be yet another all-Merseyside final. Then he told me, ‘There has been a problem at Hillsborough and seven or eight people have died.' By the time he picked me up, the figure was over twenty. That was just staggering, like everyone else, I was utterly stunned. The following Thursday, I went to Anfield with three of my schoolmates and I put my Wednesday shirt and scarf on the Kop — it was really sombre.
I never wanted to go to a football match again. At the time, Wednesday were in a relegation fight and the next game played there was two or three weeks later against West Ham. They beat us 2-0 but I really didn't care. I stared at the tarpaulin they had draped over the Leppings Lane terrace fencing. I just felt sick and really not bothered if we stayed up or went down. Nothing mattered. As well as the loss, I could feel what every football fan was feeling — it could have been me.
On the last Saturday of that season, we played Middlesbrough at home — winner takes all — whoever won stayed up. We won 1-0 and the way we reacted both to the goal and the final whistle reminded us that it did matter again. We hadn't got over it but we had got back to being football fans — very tribal. They closed the Leppings Lane terrace for a couple of years after that — there was a whole season with nothing there until they installed seating. It was ghostly.
Football fans in that era knew how the police were and how you could be treated. So I could never understand how football fans generally thought it was the Liverpool fans' fault. Personally, I just didn't get it, especially in Sheffield, also a working-class city — and they had seen how South Yorkshire Police had dealt with the miners. But there was this whole thing that it was the outsiders who caused it. There was — and continues to be — an element of denial that our away end was a death trap — we might not have gone in it ourselves but it was our ground and our club.
The biggest legacy of the Hillsborough disaster is the all-seater stadiums and the formation of the Premier League — neither would be possible without Hillsborough. It's a better era now — purely because of the standards both of the grounds themselves and attitudes to health and safety — but it's not necessarily a better experience and the traditional fan has been priced-out.
The problem that I have is that I will go to any Wednesday away game, I'll know anything from 20-50 people who will be there, but I won't be sitting with them. That's what I miss most. Before, with standing, you could meet up with your mates and go together where you wanted to. Now, the ticket allocation is random. I don't agree that ‘safe' standing will be any better though. Rail seating/standing is safer than traditional standing but it does not solve the fundamental issue — if you're all pre-allocated seats (which you have to be for safety reasons), you can't stand where you want with your mates.
Hillsborough itself has barely changed since 1989. The North Stand is exactly the same apart from the wooden seats being replaced. Leppings Lane, to all intents and purposes, is exactly the same - which will be very difficult for Liverpool supporters if we ever do play them again — probably in a Cup as promotion feels like light-years away. Weirdly we've never played Liverpool since we were relegated in 2000. It feels even more remarkable that we played Liverpool at Hillsborough in November 1989, so soon after the disaster. It really was a case of “got to get on with it” at the time…
These days at Hillsborough, the away fans access the lower tier seats (the old standing area) through that same tunnel. It is uncomfortable when I filmed there, I wouldn't want to be there on a matchday as an away fan. A sizeable number – I'm not saying a majority – of Wednesday fans have always wanted to knock down that end of the ground and build something more suitable with a proper memorial included. But it just never happened — the Club officials of the time can give reasons why it didn't happen — but they won't.
Making the Documentary
I wrote a chapter on the Hillsborough Disaster in my first book in 1995. Then, in 2008, with the 20th anniversary on the horizon, I first approached the BBC about making the definitive documentary. They passed on that because they thought ‘What's new?' I am now really pleased that they did say “No” as, then, I could not have made the same documentary that I eventually did. It is only since the findings of the Independent Panel and the new inquest that everything can be said and not be legally challenged.
In 2011, I was working on two projects for ESPN and I heard that they wanted to make a film about Hillsborough. I pretty much immediately flew to New York and said, “I'm your man — don't look anywhere else.” Then it was a case of getting the BBC on board as they held all the crucial archive footage and it ended up being a co-production. We finished it in 2014, ready for the 25th anniversary and it was broadcast in the USA but over here it was embargoed until the inquests had finished.
Professionally, as a filmmaker, it was frustrating, but to wait a little while was nothing so long as the inquest got the right verdict. With hindsight, it was a much better film with the inquest findings and the exoneration of the fans being the conclusion (the previous incarnation of the film finished with the families going into the start of the inquest).
I was trying to be clear from the outset that I was going to be showing how the disaster happened. Over the years, many people outside of Liverpool had been so flippant about Hillsborough and had no idea, really, as to why, or how, it happened. You have to see the gravity of what unfolded: to see, firstly, how people died and secondly why people have carried on fighting like they have for justice. If you saw what happened and then saw how everyone was treated, you couldn't just move on — and I wanted to get that across. I tried to keep as open a mind as possible going into the project — that's why you see four policeman telling you very human stories of their experiences on the day and beyond.
How the tragedy all came together was almost like a “Sliding Doors” moment. One incident in October 1988 (a prank by some police officers) led to the removal of the key man who understood how football crowds worked. This led to the bringing in of a completely inexperienced person (David Duckenfield) to police a game of incredible complexity. If everything had gone fine, nobody would have minded that Duckenfield only had 3 weeks' experience. The only time that Duckenfield had been to Hillsborough before was for a match against Millwall and they only brought 200 fans and there were only 18-20,000 in the whole ground. Although Duckenfield really needed an experienced second-in-command, that man had only been in place that season.
So you have a catalogue of factors but we should not forget that this incident was coming and Hillsborough was particularly bad in almost being ready-made for this disaster. You had a ground that rarely got massive crowds — you might get 40,000 for a visit of Manchester United and over 30,000 for Everton, Manchester City or Liverpool. But here we had 55,000 people coming to a stadium that they didn't really know. You had that added factor that, whereas at a Wednesday home game, even if it was completely full, you could access the North Stand from the Kop End so there was less pressure on Leppings Lane — even if the opposition brought 10,000 away fans.
So a semi-final at Hillsborough was always going to be problematic. At the semi-final the year before, when Forest met Liverpool, people thought that. The Leeds-Coventry semi-final game in 1987 had to be delayed. Those who say that it would not have happened if Liverpool hadn't been given that end are wrong — the numbers don't work. Whoever had that end would have had a problem — it was nothing to do with Liverpool being a bigger club. You can't process 24,000 through 23 turnstiles in the time given. 7 of those turnstiles were for the 10,000 serving the Leppings Lane Terrace – that's 1,300-1,400 persons per turnstile. The Green Guide (safety for football grounds) stated that a fully functioning turnstile with fans having their tickets ready or the right change (if paying cash) can process 750 persons per hour. So, on that basis, it would have been 3:40 pm before they had everyone in.
Had they announced that they had delayed the kick-off, it would have stopped any crush outside. It's a big game and you want to get in — people weren't charging, they were just moving forward. The ticket wasn't particularly helpful in terms of a map and when you got there you didn't know which bit of this massive crowd you were supposed to be in. Nothing was particularly helpful for these 24,000 people. So you were relying on the club and the police to guide you in — and that didn't happen. The year before there had been ticket checks on the approach to Leppings Lane — this was not so much to check that people had tickets as to break up the flow of the crowd a bit and make people more aware of where they are headed. This time, none of that was in place. Even with all that, it could have been averted by closing the doors leading to the Leppings Lane tunnel.
As for the police — there was no leadership. Back then, South Yorkshire Constabulary was organised along military lines — you waited for your leader to tell you what to do. The infantry don't make decisions — they wait for the order. If they weren't told anything, they didn't do anything. A few police officers did act on their own initiative but most were waiting on their sergeant who was waiting for the superintendent to give the order, who, in turn, was waiting on the Chief Superintendent. It was this whole hierarchical thing.
I have seen everything that was filmed that day – the BBC was covering it for Match of the Day and there was an ITV news crew there. The BBC also sent down a local news crew when they heard something was happening. Finally, there was a police video team present on the day, an early sort of spotter surveillance unit — in fact, they were the underwater rescue unit. I really wish I could ‘unsee' some of it but I can still picture a lot of it.
When making the documentary, we agreed that we would go as far as what was tasteful and subsequently took the opinion of Professor Phil Scraton and some family members as to what was acceptable. In the end, we didn't need to take anything out as we had got it pretty much right in the initial edit.
All of the footage was available to the Popper Inquest and Taylor Inquiry, which begs the question — why wasn't this all cleared up beforehand? Only they can answer that but the implication was obvious. If the footage had been used quickly, it would have been quite easy to clear up what had happened, as it is all there. Taylor saw it and came to a correct conclusion early on, but the rest of it was establishment manipulation.
What really shocked me was not so much the footage of the day — and that was very distressing – but two items of footage from later on. One was of South Yorkshire Police manipulating coroner Stefan Popper by plotting on a map all the pubs in which the fans had been drinking — the fact that they were happy to be filmed doing that just shows you how invincible they thought they were. The other clip was when Lord Justice Stuart-Smith gets out of his car when he goes to meet the Hillsborough families in 1997 – and he says — and I'm paraphrasing - “Are all the Liverpool fans here? It's not like them to be late.” I had heard the story a few times but I had naively thought that it was apocryphal and it had been slightly misheard — but then we found it in the archive and it was a case of, “Oh my God, he did say that???"
The police did not look at the evidence and decide what had happened — they thought they knew already and then sought out the evidence to prove it. For example, they took a camera up to the Snake Pass to film cans of beer alongside the road – it could have been anyone tossing out a can from their car but they said, “That shows you what the Liverpool fans were like.” The Hillsborough Independent Panel Report put everything online and you can read there that South Yorkshire Police asked every pub landlord across the city of Sheffield a series of questions about what happened that day. And they all said that supporters left their pubs around 2 pm, so not that late. They weren't turning up drunk en masse at the stadium.
The UK Broadcast
I don't particularly engage with Twitter but I did follow the Twitter feed when the programme was broadcast on the BBC. There was a massive spike on social media as people switched from the BAFTA Awards on BBC One to watching Hillsborough on BBC Two — which was an amazing thing to witness. Had we broadcast before the inquest verdict, some people might still have had doubts. Some people will never change their minds – they are lost causes – but it is a very different environment now in which to be screening it.
The Hillsborough families watched it — they are very proud of the film. That's very flattering but also a hard one for me to take. Any recognition for the film is as much recognition for them. I would like the film to be remembered as being dedicated to them — and to all those who fought for justice. But especially For The 96.
Although written in 2017, the publication of this article was held back pending the conclusion of legal processes. My thanks to David Gordon for sparing the time to talk with me at length.
Reader Comments (87)
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1 Posted 15/04/2020 at 08:51:47
Thanks for helping with the truth Daniel, thanks to Rob, Michael and Lyndon, for the continued great work that this website produces, and fuck off to David Duckenfield, the South Yorkshire Police, Gordon Taylor, and the Thatcher Government, who preferred to tell lies rather than the truth, the evil lying bastards.
2 Posted 15/04/2020 at 09:03:00
One particular thing really came home to me while reading your article. It was the fabrication of so called evidence by the police. This last weekend, I have read a lot about the acquittal on appeal of Archbishop Pell. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not a religious person. But the police evidence seemed to have been exactly as you reported for the Hillsborough situation. I was convinced by the ABC coverage that he was a corrupt pedophile. But the ABC reporting and the police fabrication seems to have been arrogantly and negligently incorrect. As you say, make the accusation and create the evidence.
So, it's not just in the UK or just Yorkshire that this occurs. Somehow, we never change. We never learn. There will always be corrupt people in positions of power and this will be a blight to the honest, hard working guys and gals who want the truth out there so that we do learn.
Coming back to the Hillsborough disaster, regardless of age, team loyalty, religious creed, political bent and wage level, I think all football fans would have been horrified by the events and felt deeply for those who died and their families and friends.
Thanks for posting this article.
3 Posted 15/04/2020 at 09:34:23
We were stood quite near to the pitch and when Andy Gray scored everyone surged forward. I got trapped against the fence that stopped you from being able to get onto the pitch and for a good 15-20 seconds wasn't able to breathe.
This happened a few times more afterwards and was terrifying. Eventually my Dad and another guy lifted me up so that I was at head height gripping the fence.
I'm sure this was a common experience for match goers at the time and was part and parcel of the government's attitude of caging us in like animals.
Like the rest of us, I'll never forget the 96 that died. More importantly, I'll never forget the family and friends of the victims that have had to endure a lifetime of suffering as a result of something that should never have happened.
When it comes to Hillsborough, we are one city.
4 Posted 15/04/2020 at 10:07:53
I would like to also send good wishes to Kenny Dalglish, who has Covid-19, and his family. He was a giant of a man through that crisis and deserves the utmost respect for it.
5 Posted 15/04/2020 at 10:47:44
So the ordeal was repeated time and time again for every big game there and, let's be honest, at grounds all over the country, including Goodison Park and Anfield. But, as Daniel says in his excellent report, we fans just took these experiences for granted.
It definitely doesn't excuse the way we were treated and even more so the way Liverpool fans and the families of the bereaved and injured were lied to and ignored for 25 years by both sets of government. Until Andy Burham (sic) promised an inquiry to the Hillsborough game, a disaster that will never be forgotten on Merseyside.
6 Posted 15/04/2020 at 11:41:50
Personally, I think what happened 4 years earlier at Heysel contributed to this disaster. Attitudes of the police, the Tory government, and the establishment generally, were never going to be anything other than it was the fans' fault.
7 Posted 15/04/2020 at 12:19:52
I have tried to check these comments and did I really hear them, but then I found this link on Tomkins Times!
Now if Jimmy Armfield could see that, why couldn't the incompetent Dukinfield and his lying cronies see it? Why has the BBC not kept the radio commentary of Armfield and published it?
8 Posted 15/04/2020 at 16:26:12
I think it is missing the point to blame the government of the day (if the Labour Party hadn't been so useless, we would have had a different government anyway). The rottenness was in the football community itself, clubs, fans and administrators. We should have put our own house in order before Hillsborough, then we wouldn't have needed the police to keep us safe.
BTW, good news on the BBC about Kenny Dalglish, who is recovering well from Covid-19.
9 Posted 15/04/2020 at 17:15:51
That has got to be the biggest load of unadulterated shite I've ever had to read on this website.
10 Posted 15/04/2020 at 17:18:59
I was in the Leppings Lane end for that game as well. I actually got dragged out by a Bobby as I'd nearly passed out from the crush. When I'd recovered my senses, pitchside, he just said "Right, get back in there if you're okay."
We were treated like animals. Having said that, there were lots who behaved like animals too. I know in our game at Hillsborough there were hundreds, if not thousands, who'd left the pub at five to three after having a semi skinful and then tried to get in by hook or crook. It was commonplace then at big games to try'n "force the gates".
The disaster could so easily have happened to us.
11 Posted 15/04/2020 at 17:23:52
This lockdown is addling a couple of brain cells on here.
12 Posted 15/04/2020 at 17:27:13
I recall when in the sixties many grounds packed everyone in like sardines in big games especially and I had many a harrowing moment at Goodison Park and Anfield but thought nothing of it as long as I was still standing and able to go to the next match.
Many problems also occurred outside the ground waiting to get in and sometimes waiting for hours queuing up to get tickets for big games with little or no police control except the odd bobby on a horse.
Sometimes only being able to catch the derby match in the Kop it was just a constant back and forward surge up and down the terrace that one couldn't really watch the game with any continuity. We called them the good old days. Yeah right!
Hillsborough and Hampden were tragedies waiting to happen.
13 Posted 15/04/2020 at 17:28:56
The South Yorkshire superintendent who'd been in charge of the same fixture one year earlier was not seeking further promotion. His performance was excellent. He knew the ground, the behaviour of fans, and how to deploy officers. He was stunned at the time that Duckenfield, a favourite of the Chief Constable, was chosen as ground commander. He was left to work in Sheffield on other duties as the calamity unfolded.
And the police papers show that, from the get-go, the biggest "initiative" the police pursued in trying to apportion blame was to seek "evidence" from anywhere of excessive drinking by scousers, rather than anything else.
Mind you, Norman Bettison was at the game and in a very prominent role in the incident room from that day onwards.
14 Posted 15/04/2020 at 18:16:31
Brian Mole, who was in charge the year before, was transferred to Barnsley, due to a prank some of his officers played on a new cadet.
He should have been in charge again but, weeks before, he was transferred away from Sheffield, leaving Duckenfield to take over.
15 Posted 15/04/2020 at 18:55:43
As we left Villa Park we came across Evertonians sitting on the kerb by the side of their cars, crying, who then told us what had gone on.
It's fair to say all Evertonians went from the euphoria of winning the semi to a numbness I have not known since.
In the following months and years, all respect for the authorities went out of the window.
It still leaves a big scar on the justice system.
16 Posted 15/04/2020 at 20:59:41
My overriding and strongest recollection of Hillsborough's Leppings Lane end that night and every other occasion we played there was the approach, which was just like a narrowing funnel straight down the lane to the turnstiles. There was no way out via side roads as an escape route. This was exploited by the mounted South Yorkshire Police and would never be admitted in public, and definitely not at a formal enquiry. But they liked nothing better than hearding a load of “scum scousers” into the area at the bottom of the lane outside the turnstiles and crushing us against the walls & gates with their horses, dishing out their abuse while grinning down at us from the back of their mounts.
This hostile “macho” attitude increased post what they saw as the “war” they'd won against the miners, with many even referring to themselves as “Maggies Marauders”, believing they'd been given licence to do as they pleased and were “fire-proof”, and as such were always itching for conflict. Sad times and a disaster that was sadly inevitable.
17 Posted 15/04/2020 at 22:19:06
I remember the train journey back to Lime Street and most of the carriage I was in being pleased that at the same time we played, Liverpool beat St Etienne in the European Cup to progress to (I think...) the semi-finals.
No rancour. No seething. Just pleased for the city.
How times change, eh?
18 Posted 15/04/2020 at 22:27:07
Do you not remember the threatening, racist and homophobic chanting, the occasional violence, the fear in the faces of people in the high streets when visiting fans marched through? It took an army of police to keep order in big games – this was never needed in crowds just as big in other sports, like racing and both codes of rugby.
Like Tom says, these were tragedies waiting to happen. The only wonder is that there were not more of them.
19 Posted 15/04/2020 at 22:38:53
I was using 2:55 as a generalisation, though I must admit my memory is bad. I should have posted "five minutes before kickoff" to be factually correct.
And although you and Jay (#17) say there was no time for a session due to rushing to get there after work there was time for lots of others who were in the pubs hours before kickoff, just as thousands were in the pubs before most games, getting tanked up.
It was quite commonplace for there to be a rush from the pubs as late as possible before kickoff and that caused problems in itself.
20 Posted 15/04/2020 at 22:41:44
Of course, the culture of hooliganism didn't help but most fans of that time tried to steer clear of that element but the media portrayed every fan as being a potential hooligan and the police responded to that portrayal.
Even to this day, football supporters are treated differently to other sports fans; it was wrong then and it's wrong now. We pay our money just like fans do to enter Twickenham and Ascot but the rules and treatment of fans twixt the sports are very different.
21 Posted 16/04/2020 at 02:16:54
I forget the words, which were neither here nor there, but the whole tone, demeanour and body language screamed - "Nobody is going to say anything (of importance) until we've all gone away and got our stories straight."
That stood out then and as has been shown was exactly what happened – they all went away and agreed on the 'official' version.
The arl fella went to Rome... part of the cause of Heysel... went to Heysel, saw them bringing the bodies out, did an about turn and drove home. He was supposed to have gone to Hillsborough too. So when I got back I phoned up.
"Why didn't you go?"
"Don't know, I got up and just didn't fancy it, so I didn't go."
That pretty much finished him as a match-going regular. He'd go to Goodison on a Boxing Day, which was a long-standing family tradition, both the red and blue halves, but that was it... and even then, his heart wasn't in it.
22 Posted 16/04/2020 at 05:16:21
23 Posted 16/04/2020 at 06:07:50
At that time, I was working for one of the large national bookmakers and, during training, they used to hit on what was and wasn't allowed by law and where they were particularly strict on the matter. In those days, it was supposed to be illegal to hang around betting shops, the idea was that you would put your bet on and leave. It was also illegal to encourage people to bet and, if you wanted to advertise a certain bet or odds on events, then you had to use the words "For Example" which then rendered it allowable. The police force that was quoted as being keen on enforcing these laws were the Yorkshire, in particular Sheffield, police who were known to close betting shops for the afternoon for any breach. Most other police forces in the country overlooked minor infringements, having better things to do in the days before "zero tolerance".
Most police forces in Britain in the early '70s enforced the law as they saw fit. Indeed, Liverpool police had a quota system and officers were told to meet a certain number of arrests and convictions in a given time. A friend of mine was arrested in the City on a Monday night and charged with being Drunk & Disorderly and Assaulting a Police Officer. He said that, to add insult to injury, the Magistrate the next morning was Billy Liddell and, on pleading Not Guilty, he was to appear before a bench of three magistrates at a later date. These were known as Magistrates Courts and Police Courts as if it was your word against a solitary officer then Rumpole's "golden thread of English justice – beyond a reasonable doubt" went by the board and the Policeman's word was taken.
At that trial, six police officers gave evidence against his sole voice but he was found not guilty of assault but guilty of being D&D. His barrister stated that this was British Justice at it's best, they'd just taken the word of a drunk against that of six police officers.
24 Posted 16/04/2020 at 08:49:59
I agree with the perception of how football supporters are viewed differently but, to my way of thinking, the worst supporters are the gobshites that follow England. Usually supporters from clubs like Southend, Portsmouth etc, congregating all over Europe, getting pissed and hassling locals.
Remember the dickheads throwing bikes in a canal in Amsterdam. These "supporters" give the rest of us a bad name... one of the reasons I have never been that passionate about international football.
25 Posted 16/04/2020 at 12:52:34
What Jimmy Arnfield was saying at ten to three, had already been pointed out to me at 2.35pm, and the police were totally to blame for their disgraceful ineptitude on the day.
A bit like our government now, where failing to prepare, hopefully doesn't lead us to preparing to fail, although try telling that to the families of the doctors and nurses working on the front line without enough proper equipment, right now.
Your statement was crass imo Roger, totally crass considering it was said on the 31st anniversary of the disaster, writing about needing the police to keep people safe, when it was their negligence, that contributed to things getting totally out of hand, and resulting in so many deaths imo.
It got me thinking of Boris Johnson, and him telling people in the future, that it was a good job his government had chosen not to sell off the NHS, otherwise they might not have helped to save his life!
26 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:15:28
Anyway I asked the steward, “do you do this for everyone?” “No, he said, youse are the only ones that turn up late-so we only do it for youse”
I never thought it made much sense, especially because as I said to the steward, we havent got far to travel, but looking back maybe it was more sensible than I thought, even if I personally thought there was an ulterior motive, and I sensed a little bit of that control I remember in the eighties, when it was common place for people in authority to pull rank?
27 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:17:12
Anyway I asked the steward, “do you do this for everyone?” “No, he said, youse are the only ones that turn up late-so we only do it for youse”
I never thought it made much sense, especially because as I said to the steward, we havent got far to travel, but looking back maybe it was more sensible than I thought, even if I personally thought there was an ulterior motive, and I sensed a little bit of that control I remember in the eighties, when it was common place for people in authority to pull rank?
28 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:22:36
After a lot of shouting from the Everton fans, the stewards opened a gate, pitch side to relieve the crushing and let Everton fans into another part of the ground.
29 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:22:46
I'm not taking the rap, was his words when the truth finally came out, and its a scene that often has me thinking about that ineptitude bastard Duckingfield.
30 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:28:46
31 Posted 16/04/2020 at 13:32:00
The arrangements for this season's derby sounded terrible, as if the teams were from different cities. When I lived back home, we'd go the pub and sometimes into the stadium together. Does that not happen anymore?
32 Posted 16/04/2020 at 14:23:05
Back to the 89 cup final, I remember being in a pub in Harrow after the game, again with our crowd being a mixed bunch. This Irish fella was commenting on everyone being on the pitch at the end. Did it look bad, I asked? Are you kidding me, he said, it looked absolutely beautiful, look at yers now, reds & blues together, dont underestimate yourselves, it both looked and was fantastic.
Tell me which other city, could have done what you boys did today? None- he said answering his own question, and yet the last time we played Liverpool at Wembley, even our trains left from separate train stations!
33 Posted 16/04/2020 at 18:28:09
From the early fifties I was used to go to Anfield one week and Goodison the next. Even then I was a staunch Blue, who only wanted to ever see Liverpool lose. After the game I would walk home for teatime to a divided household regarding football. One brother as Blue as could be and another one Red to the eyeballs. Arguments would rage and nobody ever won. What was interesting was that neither team was particularly good.
This rivalry existed right through the to the 1990s although it was becoming more partisan. Hatred has replaced rivalry and the thought of Blue and Red actually mixing during a match would be unthinkable. Today after a game I do not want to meet any Liverpool supporter in any pub anywhere. I don't want to discuss the game with anyone other than an Evertonian. I can then let loose about how useless so and so was. However I don't even want a RS to praise any of our players let alone criticise them.
Today's football has become so global that teams just don't have many locals playing for them. In fact, even Brits are a rarity. This means that many of the so-called fans are from all over the world. I cannot abide having Hans Allover from Munich or Luigi Botomelli from Sicily telling me how good Liverpool are. I don't mind Wally the Red Wanker from Anfield telling me he hates Everton.
However, this well written article should be read over again. The fact that over ninety scousers died was a very sad day for all those who have to realise it is just a game, whoever you support. Personally, I was devastated on the day it happened in1987.
You have to be a fanatic to be prepared to travel far and near to just watch your team play and to want to talk about them everyday of your life. I am such a person. I am now missing football a great deal. I would even prefer a Liverpudlian than someone who doesn't follow any team. However the devastation and death from Covid-19 should make us accept that football is not really that important.
34 Posted 16/04/2020 at 18:43:39
We had a near miss that day in my opinion. The crush got that bad in the away end at Barnsley that people passed out and were having to be passed over the crowd to the front (my younger brother included). Fortunately that day, the Police acted and opened the gates to relieve the pressure.
The early action meant that, yes, fans spilled onto the side just off the pitch but were treated in a controlled way alongside the fence and advertising boards. I remember Neville Southall looking on at what was happening, but fortunately, it didn't escalate into a tragedy that our red cousins were to sadly experience only 2 months later.
35 Posted 16/04/2020 at 20:35:32
36 Posted 17/04/2020 at 08:25:52
The cover-up to avoid blame, the whitewash investigation, and the treatment of relatives over years, just added to the initial mismanagement and incompetence. It all became a total injustice against innocent fans and their relatives, and still is.
37 Posted 18/04/2020 at 08:18:40
At the time, I thought it would be a fire behind the crowd and that hundreds or even thousands might be crushed or burned. And I was reminded of that thought when I saw film of the Bradford City fire. “Only” 56 died at Bradford because the pitch was accessible; with barriers, it would have been thousands.
There were all sorts of errors at Hillsborough, and blame can be attributed to many participants, but in my view, the only real cause was the deliberate creation of a space designed for thousands of people which had no escape route. The police clearly made mistakes under pressure, but the trap was made inescapable by people making calm decisions which were reviewed and approved by others. If the barriers had not been there, there would probably have been no deaths.
38 Posted 18/04/2020 at 12:16:01
The police and politicians were always going to cover it up. It is business. The police were not guilty of gross negligence or manslaughter. What they were guilty of was a conspiracy and aiding and abetting.
The problem was, in my view, about money. Yes, 96 people died but the professionals think about liability. Psychiatric damage would likely have been the claims. Even the law made it harder to sue someone by imposing really difficult criteria. The professionals also are just going to benefit.
Causation: blame. Police, design of ground, fans. Incompetent head police officer. Medical professionals. Could they have acted faster? How many were trained in CPR?
39 Posted 18/04/2020 at 14:50:28
40 Posted 18/04/2020 at 21:01:59
41 Posted 18/04/2020 at 21:11:02
He did not know it would be certain death of 1 or 96. Why didn't the fans see the problem and not force themselves in? They were likely not sober, many of them, as we were not sober in Villa Park. We drank cans of lager. Let's not pretend fans are Mother Theresa.
42 Posted 18/04/2020 at 21:37:08
The middle pens were overcrowded at 2:30 pm, so the fact that the police never communicated this to each other, and blocked the tunnel to those middle pens, is gross negligence of the highest order imo, especially considering that they still hadn't done anything about it, once they decided that they had to open the gates.
Something always comes back to me whenever I think of that day, and it's a horrible thought every time it enters my head. Beardsley had a shot that hit the bar and I often think: How many more people would have perished if his shot had ended up in the net?
43 Posted 18/04/2020 at 22:29:03
It was a semi-final as I remember.
44 Posted 18/04/2020 at 22:58:02
At the same ground, with the same two teams playing the year before, everything passed off without any problems, but the fans never had a bevy that year, just in case the police weren't organised, and then obviously got lulled into a false sense of security and thought it was going to be the same officer in charge, who had organised his staff so well the previous year.
Duckinfield was not up to the job, and Duckinfield has been protected by the authorities for over 31 years, unfortunately. I know his guilty verdict would not have brought any of the deceased back to life, but I'm certain it might have relieved a little bit of the pain, for some of their family members, especially after so many lies had been told by the powers that be.
Maybe he was also protected because the ground never even had a safety certificate? And yet some people still try to partly blame the fans.
45 Posted 18/04/2020 at 23:54:25
The fans were determined to get into that game, they had no regard for others lives at the time. They just wanted to get in and that road was so narrow. Causation is not one thing, it's several events on that day.
46 Posted 19/04/2020 at 00:35:54
Lawyers get off on it, to their massive financial and reputational benefit and, obviously, sometimes guilty defendants, and the political systems underpinning them, get off on it too, leaving the innocently truly fucked to bear all the pain.
47 Posted 19/04/2020 at 01:34:22
Excuse and cover up, after cover up and lives came and went, and decades and lives, passed and the unqualified and incapable CIC of the Yorkshire Police on the day, gets off, Scot free, and with no meaningful indictment.
Surely the CPS, will also admit the falseness and perhaps Mr Burnham, could relight his baton, which was fantastic to get the case to the starting gate, but thus warrants a further review and his backup.
Wheres the justice?
Its a rotten, stinking false disposition of facts, and Duckenfield, was and is to this day a fraud.
The sense of injustice will be eternal.
Bearing current times with COVID19, its more important than ever for every one to protect them selves in terms of health and safety.
All stay safe and well, we will prevail.
48 Posted 19/04/2020 at 05:43:02
49 Posted 19/04/2020 at 08:14:21
Causation applies to GNM as it has to be civil test before adding the criminal element. Stop thinking as a fan and take yourself out of the equation.
Put yourself in his situation. He was not an experienced head officer. Law test is an equivalent in his position the hypothetical or reasonable officer in that sense.
What should the reasonable officer have done. What about for causation the contributing factors? I outlined them above. What about their reasonable equivalents? It's not so simple but the fans and public want simplistic answers.
Society is set up so that the person in authority has to fall on his sword whether that head had mens rea, or intent as it's known. This is called authority mentality and known in psychology as social influence in terms of obedience, compliance and conformity. It is blame the authority in charge. It's like Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden and Milosovic. In former Yugoslavia there was bottom-up genocide. As prosecution put it, our case is not 'against that whole village'.
50 Posted 19/04/2020 at 08:23:43
Anne Williams🙏, what an absolutely inspirational mother, and human being. She told Bill Kenwright (I don't ever give this man credit, but this was magnificent 👏) her son had actually bought her the record, "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother", not long before he died. It was reproduced so beautifully before Everton played Newcastle, and the boy and girl dressed in blue and red wore the numbers 9 & 6!
51 Posted 19/04/2020 at 08:32:04
My law degree means I think like a lawyer now; to a certain extent, I do.
52 Posted 19/04/2020 at 08:41:53
By the way, I am working class and stuck on benefits because am severely dyslexic. I am not a Tory minded person. I don't fit into the "speed, efficiency, timing, without concern for the person" capitalist country or world largely, as the sociologist and economist, Max Weber, may have put it.
53 Posted 19/04/2020 at 09:02:17
I was at the game at Spurs in '85 behind the goal, and though it was full, I don't recall any problems. I also attended Whitehart Lane in '89, just a week after Hillsborough. I was in the Everton end behind the goal, getting in there 25 mins before kick-off, the section got very full and we called to the police to open the empty section on our right. It took them till nearly half-time to open it, much to our relief.
Many were shouting at the coppers "Don't you know what happened last week?" etc... The crowd was only 28,000. An example of how the chain of command was very slow and how, even in a below-capacity attendance, away fans in particular were treated with disdain.
54 Posted 19/04/2020 at 09:31:44
I was a young professional at Nottingham Forest at the time, and was asked on the Monday was I going the game? Before I could reply, I was told I was the first on the coach (staff members, players wives) because there was no way I was going to Villa Park.
On the day, a scout from Ireland was on the coach, lovely man. We talked football, he told me how much he was looking forward to the game and, when we got to the stadium, I said "I'm going to find a few red mates, I will see you in the ground."
I got in the stadium around half-two, because I couldn't find any mates (no mobiles back then) and happened to be sitting next to the scout. Standing up talking, he said, "Look at those middle two pens, Tony, that doesn't look right to me."
The time was 2:35 pm – I know because I checked my watch, and because I have a "football education" and was thinking "Those pens look overcrowded now, and there is still nearly half-an-hour to kick-off."
Something should have been done then; surely one policeman in the crowd should have also noticed this and, to my mind, I'd question: Did they even have a Wilkie-talkie between them?
If the answer is, they didn't, it would honestly make more sense, because their failure to (a) notice or (b) act accordingly, is gross misconduct in my view.
I've already said, I think the police had to open the gates, but I would have to question what they learn people in law school, if not shutting off the tunnel to the middle pens, (taking everything into consideration) was not gross misconduct of the very highest order?
The South Yorkshire policemen had batons and not white sticks – even the uneducated could see this.
55 Posted 19/04/2020 at 10:00:34
You put a good argument. I'd have liked to have seen the prosecution's case and defence. The problem with evidence is not all of it is admissible or the judge refuses some of it.
You present a case of the police not being equipped. Is incompetence also the same as guilty of unlawful killing?
Okay, I help families in the family court situation only online to keep my mind busy. I don't charge them.
I know there is a secret system where fake identities are used and sometimes children and parents go to foster care and prison under fake names. I have seen evidence of police involvement. It keeps professionals in jobs and no-one knows this foster care system has corruption.
MI5 protects paedophiles in government. Hansard, where politicians talk on public record, stated in the 1970s they protected Northern Irish politicians. Look corruption goes on at all levels because...
I digress. I still don't know if GNM applies unless I could go through everything. The likelihood is the police could not withstand a public scandal on that scale. So, like MI5 use the Official Secrets Act, I think they did something like that in 1989. 30 years later, as consigned to history, the public mind has moved on and can now tolerate an investigation, as in the recent situation in Warrington.
56 Posted 19/04/2020 at 10:22:39
Going off the subject and onto another, then praise to KEIOC, who took on and beat the millionaire lawyers of both Everton and Tesco, thank god!
57 Posted 19/04/2020 at 11:15:49
Some families are dangerous and children are seriously harmed. Okay, I don't touch those cases. Most who come to me social workers remove for 'future emotional harm'. Ex domestic abuse victim etc. All this is classed as harm sufficient to remove a child. There are no appeals in the family courts as once a decision is made it's like a train that cannot be stopped unless derailed. The body for social work said that of the UK's child adoption scandal. The media never report it.
This scandal is going on in several European countries and every English speaking country. European Parliament said 96% of UK adoptions are without parent consent. UK Gov leaked it by accident under the Dept of Education and PhD from Cambridge assigned to investigate. Council of Europe said stuff too. Everything is in secret as families go to prison if they tell anyone. Judges are paid about £150k to £250k. They use limited companies to protect from liability.
58 Posted 19/04/2020 at 14:19:10
59 Posted 19/04/2020 at 15:25:16
Bob Greaves was talking to a safety expert who said words to the effect that "These fences will kill someone."
60 Posted 19/04/2020 at 15:44:38
61 Posted 19/04/2020 at 17:19:23
Outside, those who did were imploring Duckenfield to ease the pressure of the crowd to get in. One inspector got so desperate he literally transmitted "Just open the fucking gates" (transmission of four-letter words to a superintendent is career suicide btw). Of course that inspector had no idea of the state of the four pens compromising Leppings Lane interior.
Duckenfield had seen the centre pens get full to bursting whilst the two nearer each corner had easy visible capacity. Officers inside the ground transmitted to him that he do the obvious to relieve the two centre pens. He did nothing, and then the gates outside gave way, fans charging inadvertently into the jam-packed two centre pens.
By any standard of Justice he and his Chief Constable should have been on trial in 1990 charged together with manslaughter by gross recklessness and/or gross negligence.
62 Posted 19/04/2020 at 18:03:31
John kept moving my thoughts around; fair-enough, he understands the law a lot more than me. But not closing the tunnel was gross negligence of the highest order, and men would have been punished for their ineptness in many other walks of life.
The man responsible for the herald of free enterprise disaster died a broken man, but not David, not an ounce of remorse or empathy has ever been shown by this man. Maybe his way of hiding his guilt?
63 Posted 19/04/2020 at 18:06:34
No mad panic once the gates were (had to be) opened. Time to check that everyone had a ticket etc. Time for an inexperienced officer to get his head around what he should be doing. If only.
64 Posted 19/04/2020 at 19:31:54
She never went to Hillsborough out of empathy, simply because the Iron Lady never had any, and certainly not towards us scousers, for the reasons I wrote up above.
The stories were collaborated, the families got inexplicably pushed aside, whilst so many policemen received compensation, and how the fuck is this even possible to even begin to try and work out?
Gross negligence of the highest order, and still they received compensation, whilst the families, had to scrimp and save, to begin the long fight for justice, but fight they certainly did.
For the truth, but not the whole truth, because that has always been just a little step to far!
65 Posted 19/04/2020 at 19:58:59
66 Posted 19/04/2020 at 20:03:24
67 Posted 19/04/2020 at 21:37:42
Duckenfield had never been in charge of a game like that before, it was a complete hospital pass from his superiors. And on the day, he bottled it, and clearly was out of his depth. But I suspect the jury baulked at putting the whole blame for that dreadful day on his shoulders. As an institution, however, South Yorkshire Police are wholly to blame for their piss poor management from start to finish, and then their lamentable attitude post the event.
I was at Villa Park that day, and you couldn't get near the ground without being slowed down and herded into slow lines of traffic, basic police procedure for crowds.
68 Posted 20/04/2020 at 02:51:14
Moving forward to 2007, it was shown on the news of hundreds of Liverpool supporters running past the first lot of ticket checks at the 2007 Champions League Final, with supporters interviewed afterwards of how good it was to get into the ground without a ticket – not a care in the world for those in the ground, or those genuine fans with tickets.
This came out later about the night. The report paints a damning picture of the Anfield club's fans' behaviour at last month's Champions League final in Athens.
Uefa insist those alleged incidents – with many supporters who held genuine tickets complaining of being denied entry into the stadium – were the latest in a long line of transgressions.
Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans last week.
"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?
"I shook my head in disbelief as hundreds of fans stormed past the security gate check."
69 Posted 20/04/2020 at 05:06:57
70 Posted 21/04/2020 at 02:04:56
To allow a mass inlux without even attempting to divert those people into the outer pens must constitute negligence.
I think you will find plenty of lawyers who have very little good to say about the police when it comes down to protecting their own reputation or deflecting criticism.
71 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:16:07
I am not for supporting the police I just like to look at the other angle. For me blaming the police or said Duckinfield for that matter is the easy answer. If it were a law degree problem question it would be a 3rd class, ie D grade or 2.2, ie C grade at best. To get 2.1 or higher it would require scrutinising every possible tortfeasor.
Had the police apologised straight away and sacked Duckinfield, not covered up anything which lawyers would call a conspiracy offence or perverting the course of justice, would those now or since calling for his head on a platter have accepted it as negligence and not a negligence + murder related offence?
Tony Abraham et al, the Zeebrugge ferry incident concerned one man at the helm the captain and no contributing causation tortfeasors, ie blameworthy others as I recall. It was inevitable opening a ferry's doors, where there are motor traffic onboard, in open water is obvious GNM as water comes gushing in and people will foreseeably die. This is what we call the evidence speaks for itself, prima facie or res ipsa loquitur principle.
Medical negligence case for GNM normal precedent. Now this technically a professional negligence matter and not public authority. Public authorities have more protection as they're more likely to be sued than private professionals. Ok, I think this GNM case was a dentist or may have been a surgeon. Anyway, this medical professional had taken excessive risks and the patient died and it was deemed to be criminal standard. Duty, Breach, Causation, & the criminal element for GNM.
Actually the precedent for public authorities is on old case where the controller at a train station opened the gate and people died. This is res ipsa loquitur obvious for the same reasons.
The Res ipsa loquitur principle came about as a private mini bus was involved in an accident with an ambulance, the public authority dimension. The facts were not so obvious on the prima facie level,ie on the face of it. But res ipsa loquitur the evidence which apparently spoke for itself was the mini bus hit the ambulance and not vice versa. It meant the ambulance service could not be liable. The private company we as made liable. I think I recall the private driver was not to blame actually.
72 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:36:00
The big mistake was not closing those central pens, once fans were relieved of pressure, there was only one way they were heading and that was straight on, those entering did not know those pens were already full.
All it took was to put the match back 30 mins, have police inside directing the supporters to the outer pens.
Leaving those central pens open was a huge, huge mistake, add to that and Aldridge hitting the crossbar is for me was where many fans in those pens where the surge forward caused the damage.
73 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:51:20
74 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:39:01
The likelihood is also some or many of the reds fans were also affected by alcohol which may have made them not so thoughtful about cramming into a limited space with ensuing tragedy. The police may have been negligent in this in how they dealt with the matter but, were it not for the avid red fans rushing their way in without tickets, there would have been no issue.
75 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:53:11
I said the man responsible died a broken man, but not Duckinfield, who showed or accepted no guilt whatsoever.
A conspiracy, John, I always thought it was a bad charge, and usually helps the police rope in loads of people who might be on the fringes of a crime, funnily enough!
76 Posted 21/04/2020 at 21:05:01
Maybe if the police would have been on top of things (even remotely), they would have noticed that the two middle pens were full at 2:30 pm, and put a few officers at the back of the tunnel, to prevent any more fans going into the middle two pens?
The fact that they never did was gross negligence of the highest order possible, resulting in countless needless deaths. If some fans had been drinking, then how come it was the chief inspector who acted like he was “blind drunk”?
77 Posted 21/04/2020 at 23:38:48
Unbelievable. Is this person a Sun reader by any chance??
78 Posted 22/04/2020 at 09:56:57
79 Posted 22/04/2020 at 12:47:22
For someone to rehash something which has !ong since been disproven about drink playing a role in the disaster is idiotic for me, as is the pathetic defence of Duckenfield.
80 Posted 22/04/2020 at 17:10:58
Ste, don't call me an idiot. You either debate or you just shut up and go back to your video games or whatever simple-minded people do these days. Read the Sun. Fella, don't you understand the Sun is just a business and sensationalises for money?
I like to think I would read a newspaper, at the time when I did, where there are more words and less pictures. I have never read the Sun, not for many years since I learnt to read.
You lot think corruption is just Hillsborough. FFS corruption is around us every day. Most of you live in a bubble.
81 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:23:11
Imagine what the families of the victims have had to put up with down the years. But they never went away, and it's why I described Anne Williams in the way I did, because the hardest part about the truth sometimes is that, even when it comes out, the authorities have a great way of dealing with it, in their favour of course.
82 Posted 22/04/2020 at 20:09:06
The whole country, politicians – as I said previously – blocked any real investigation. Also, as I said earlier, claims for compensation for psychiatric damages were restricted to the professionals, police ambulance services, players. Everyone else had to meet a very stict test as a witness.
A friend thought he was getting paid out. It turns out the professionals in the case were instead. In 9/11 and the UK version, even though it was terrorist. Business as usually. Compensation was economic in that, if you died a cleaner, you got cleaner compensation or businessman, what a businessman would have earned for life.
The thing was, these deaths were linked to foreign policy of governments. But they paid as though it were death through negligence. Human rights as a concept is an illusion. There are just businesses and then comes the so-called liberties.
83 Posted 22/04/2020 at 20:30:38
Interesting some of the things you describe in this thread, John, cover-ups in every part of society. I honestly think Guy Fawkes had the right idea.
Sad, John, it must be heartbreaking working in a family court, watching kids getting used as pawns. The human race is the same at every level, just different bastards, with different agendas.Sometimes I wish I was in that bubble all the time.
84 Posted 22/04/2020 at 21:08:24
85 Posted 22/04/2020 at 21:48:13
86 Posted 26/04/2020 at 23:15:07
87 Posted 28/04/2020 at 08:33:29
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