Everton duo start in England warm-up match

Sunday, 6 June, 2021 319comments  |  Jump to last

Ben Godfrey was handed his first senior start for England and Dominic Calvert-Lewin got a further chance to impress up front as Gareth Southgate's men played Romania.

Even though he won't be in the squad that takes part in Euro 2020 this month, Godfrey earned his first cap against Austria a few days ago and he can further his claims for greater involvement at international level with a good performance today.

The 23-year-old ended up playing the full 90 minutes but Brighton's Ben White was ultimately selected as the defender called up to the injured Trent Alexander-Arnold.

Calvert-Lewin, meanwhile, is vying with first-choice starter Harry Kane for the striker's spot during the competition and he might have got another goal in England colours had captain Jordan Henderson not pulled rank and elected to take a second-half penalty after DCL was fouled.

Henderson missed the spot-kick but Marcus Rashford's earlier penalty ensured that Southgate's men go into the opener with Croatia with another win under their belts.  


Reader Comments (319)

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Ari Sigurgeirsson
1 Posted 06/06/2021 at 16:40:49
Well done guys. Hopefully a good performance today from Ben Godfrey will get him to Euro 2020 in place of Trent AA.
Paul Hewitt
2 Posted 06/06/2021 at 17:11:09
Watching England is like watching Everton. Passing back all the time.
Kieran Kinsella
3 Posted 06/06/2021 at 17:32:28
Off the cross bar DCL out
David Pearl
4 Posted 06/06/2021 at 17:38:21
No idea why l am watching this. Godfrey as right back. Once again England go into a tournament not knowing starting 11, not knowing formation. And the two warm up games England play players that won't even be included. What's the point.
Kev Jones
5 Posted 06/06/2021 at 17:56:39
The message could be one of encouragement: you two players are not included this time but you are part of the England set up going forward.
Kev Jones
6 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:01:49
Good to see the strong message from Southgate and the players on taking the knee.
John Skelly
7 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:12:06
Watching the game myself David and have serious doubts that England will get through the group stages.
David Pearl
8 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:17:47
I understand giving players hope for the furture but the tournament starts very soon and it would be good to see a team that clicks before we begin proper. Nothing ever changes, same old mistakes.
Peter Gorman
9 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:19:43
Kev Jones - I thought the opposite, nothing but drivel from Southgate who appears beyond deluded.

Hope they get knocked out early, that way there'll be no more booing.

Jack Convery
10 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:22:11
Abject display from England - Football and Cricket wise. Ben not able to do his stuff but who could in such an awful game.
Jeff Armstrong
11 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:36:07
Southgate continues to use players who are not in his squad in this game, it’s ridiculous, and pointless, I have no confidence in this manager for the Euros, he want to please them all.
Paul Hewitt
12 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:37:07
Henderson you greedy git. Should have let DCL take it.
Jeff Armstrong
13 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:37:27
Fucking Henderson took the ball off DCL and promptly missed a pen,., gobshite.
Rob Halligan
14 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:37:49
Second penalty won by DCL, who wants to take it. Henderson, just on as a sub grabs the ball, and misses the pen. Saved by the keeper.
Fran Mitchell
15 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:39:07
Good captaining by Henderson there rather than get a goal for the striker pre-tournament, the greedily took the ball off him to try and score himself.
Anthony Murphy
16 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:39:43
DCL wins pen, gets ball to take it. Henderson as captain takes it off him - misses. What an absolute, selfish bellend.
Jon Bentley
17 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:40:03
Billy big bollocks Henderson. Just come on but still takes the ball off a striker who won the penalty and was wanting to take it.
Daniel A Johnson
18 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:40:38
Selfish by Henderson already stealing a squad place by being unfit and then steals a penno from DCL. Its all about him obviously.
Gary Willock
19 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:42:16
Jordan Henderson is coming very close to replacing Roy Keane as the “fight club - player you’d most like to fight” leader. What an arrogant knob.
Rob Halligan
20 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:44:06
Henderson has been out injured nearly four months. What made him think he had the confidence to take that penalty? Probably wanted to show us all what we've been missing...................Not!
John Skelly
21 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:44:13
Thought DCL had a good game today Henderson denying him a penalty strike was unforgivable.
Will Mabon
22 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:47:03
Let's wait for the media to tear Henderson to pieces...
Brian Williams
23 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:49:21
I've just been challenged in an anagram quiz to rearrange the letters in the name Henderson to form another word in the English dictionary and no matter how many attempts I have it keeps coming out as WANKER!
Jay Harris
24 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:49:44
Rashford and Henderson a pair of selfish egotists who shouldn’t even be in the squad.
Rob Halligan
25 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:50:41
Will, they will probably blame DCL for not having the audacity to tell Henderson to Fuck off and demanded that he took it.
Daniel A Johnson
26 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:51:06
Henderson is such a bang average player ego-maniac as well
Darren Hind
27 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:53:11
I must admit Rob. I blame him too, How hard can it be to say "fuck off you no mark"
Allen Rodgers
28 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:53:26
I'd forgotten how much I dislike Henderson until tonight.
Brian Williams
29 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:53:29
Rashford, who's a great player IMO, seems to have gone the way of Sterling this season in losing his instinctive talent and trying too hard, and failing. As a result of that they've both become greedy and selfish.
Mike Doyle
30 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:54:49
Somehow you can’t see the Germans behaving in this selfish/amateurish way can you? Then again you can’t see the Germans appointing someone like Southgate to the post of national team manager.
Will Mabon
31 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:54:58
Rob - you know it.
Daniel A Johnson
32 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:55:33
If DCL was a red he wouldn't have snatched it from him 100%.
Thomas Richards
33 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:57:16
Ridiculous move by Henderson.
If England have a penalty shoot out in the Euros what position would he be in the penalty line up?
7th? 8th?
Rob Halligan
34 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:57:43
Darren, I wouldn't have been as polite as that!!
Will Mabon
35 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:58:06
You know, Daniel, that's an interesting point.

Jay, I don't know that Rashford has an ego problem but as for playing, I'm still waiting to see what all the hype is about.

Darren Hind
36 Posted 06/06/2021 at 18:58:10
I know you wouldnt Rob
Paul Hewitt
37 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:02:32
Keane saying DCL should have told Henderson to get lost
Rob Halligan
38 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:02:48
Well, there you go. Roy Keane said DCL should have fought his corner to take the penalty. Shifting the blame onto DCL.
Anthony Murphy
39 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:06:12
Good point that he wouldn’t have taken it off Kane - Kane wouldn’t let him. Our lads need to be less nice I’d say.
Fran Mitchell
40 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:09:20
Southgate not happy with Henderson. Good.
Daniel A Johnson
41 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:09:31
Credit on Southgate there hanging Hendo out to dry.
Will Mabon
42 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:12:24
Southgate lets his inner Truth Monster out - surprised.
Jim Bennings
43 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:15:37
I got to like Southgate, he seems like a level-headed fella but seriously commands respect from his players, actually would like to see him chance his hand again at club management but that's unlikely to be imminent.
Kev Jones
44 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:18:09
Peter#9 I’ve never been comfortable supporting England because of the history of empire, monarchy and the crass xenophobic behaviour of some of its fans. Southgate and the players taking the knee give me hope that I could support an England that could acknowledge its history and act to change things. Link that to a team that played exciting intelligent football then that would be an England worth supporting.
Peter Gorman
45 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:45:45
To each his own, Kev. The reasons why the gesture is being booed have been explained plenty of times, even on these pages. Southgate acts like the players are a bunch of kids being picked on by people who just need 'education': patronising nonsense which I'm sure he knows.
Gary Mortimer
46 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:47:41
Henderson has just said that he's "not bothered" by missing the penalty.

So why did you snatch it off DCL then, you toblerone booted gobshite?

Ian Burns
47 Posted 06/06/2021 at 19:52:24
Never before in my life have I wanted England to miss a penalty.

That is until Henderson picked up that ball !

Anthony Dove
48 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:04:51
I remember some England games when Ross and
Henderson were both playing and Henderson would pass to anyone other than Ross.
For those favouring ex shite as the next manager
think again.
Rob Halligan
49 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:09:55
Ian, # 47, I was kind of hoping Romania would snatch a late equaliser. With it only bring a friendly it doesn't matter too much, but maybe would have made Henderson feel worse. Having said that, if he's not bothered about missing the penalty, then I doubt he would have been bothered about drawing a friendly match. Utter redshite gobshite that he is!
John Skelly
50 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:10:56
Who is Ross ?
John Skelly
51 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:16:24
Sorry it's Barkley I guess.
Tom Bowers
52 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:18:49
So right about the snot-nosed Southgate brown noser Henderson. He never wanted to pass to Barklay and taking the ball off DCL for the pen. was typical.

He isn't any better than Tom Davies and many other managers may have left him out in favour of others more worthy.

Mark Andersson
53 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:19:45
I lost interest in supporting England once I realized they are the Everton of international football clubs..

Mike Doyle
54 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:21:56
Mark. Did you watch Henderson snatch the ball, promptly miss and think ‘England that’?
David Pearl
55 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:23:55
Our next new signing John
Ian Horan
56 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:25:38
Henderson was a disgrace over that penalty, but what we also saw was DCLs lack of mentality, he should have said I am a striker, I won the penno, get the fuck out of it.. probably why DCL will never be a regular 25 to 30 league goals a season.
Tony Abrahams
57 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:30:24
He might not have been better than Tom Davies, when he was the age Tom is now, but Henderson has become a key player in a Liverpool team, that competes near the very top, so this is hopefully someone Davies can learn from, because I’m sure Henderson also took a lot of stick from the Liverpool fans, early in his career at Anfield.

I think Roy Keane, is correct, and hopefully DCL can learn from this experience so he doesn’t let it happen again.

I was getting told Lewin was arguing with Allen, the other week, and when Andre Gomes, told him to have more respect for the senior players, Dominic told him he was surprised he was getting involved, considering he goes missing on the pitch every other week, so I’m sure he can look out for himself when he needs to, and he’s hopefully learned a lot today?

Clive Rogers
58 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:30:48
Stan Schofield
59 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:31:34
In the last world cup, Henderson missed a penalty against Columbia, and Pickford saved his bacon by pulling off some great saves to give England the win.

Henderson is simply over-rated, and should never have played for England. Picking mediocre players like him is one of the reasons England have been shite for so long.

Paul Birmingham
60 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:33:14
I only watch for any Everton players when England play and hope they don’t get injured and have a decent game.

Hendo as Pickford calls him, has confirmed himself to be the total gobshite and most over rated player in Britain, as most have thought for years.

I hope Southgate takes him to the cleaners and he’s put in his place,

Hopefully DCL will get street wise and grow some and stand his ground, henceforth, and spark him in training in the way you can do it and get away with it.

Imagine if this was a quarter final etc, Southgate is no mug, he will be angry and this also impacts his team startedgy and in terms of leadership, today will show him his best Ham shanked, in terms of being a leader.

Let’s hope the media take the RS, wuss who rarely plays half a season, apart.

Hopefully another interesting week for Evertonians with some serious decisions to be made by Moshiri and co.

Rob Halligan
61 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:34:59
Clive, Grealish won the first penalty. When I say won, I think he dived but as no VAR was in play, it was given. DCL won the second, nearly losing his head in the process.
David Pearl
62 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:45:40
When fit, penalty aside, Henderson may be a gobshite but is a good player and does carry a presence. England go into a tournament once again hoping to gradually improve and feel their way into it instead of hitting the ground running. We got lucky in the World Cup. I hope we do well but won't be expecting much. Even if, on paper, we have a big chance.
Darren Hind
63 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:49:51
My little bet will be on Southgate to lead England to Glory, David.

I think they'll win it

Peter Gorman
64 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:54:03
Tony @57 - that's a brilliant dit about DCL and Gomes, I hope it is true.
Stan Schofield
65 Posted 06/06/2021 at 20:56:54
England habitually picking the likes of Henderson is simply the continuation of a tradition begun circa 1970 when crap players like Peter Storey were picked over Colin Harvey and Howard Kendall.

England have deserved their inevitable failures since then. Personally, I’d like to see Everton players shine for England and avoid injury, but don’t give a shit when England lose.

Tony Abrahams
66 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:02:22
They will do very well to win it Darren, although they’ve now got much better midfield players, than they had at the last World Cup, but are these very talented players experienced enough just yet?

But maybe not having the experience can also work in their favour, even though it will be very difficult, playing in a tournament that has some of the World’s strongest teams, even when you take away the four semi-finalists from the last World Cup.

David Pearl
67 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:04:26
Darren, l think they have a chance with Kane, Mason and Foden but it depends on the shape of the team behind them. At least its something to look forward to watching.

Watching Belgium tonight, its a pity Everton didn't go for Tielemans.

Rob Halligan
68 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:05:35
Darren, your last few bets have been rubbish, so I'll be totally ignoring whatever you say!! 😁😁
Tony Abrahams
69 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:19:06
It’s a second hand story Peter, but I’ve heard it’s much more truthful than the one I got my brother on last year.

My older brother hates DCL, and whilst talking to him on the phone, I said to him that he (DCL) had just nearly crashed into me whilst I had one of the kids in the car.

What happened he asked? I said he was giving it the big one, after he nearly hit me, you’re right he’s a cheeky fucker this Lewin.

That’s it he said, we’re gonna have to get to Goodison early, and get hold of this cheeky bastard, am fucking not having this!

Hilarious, he was deadly serious, and the same fella, struggles to get up the stairs before every home game, without losing his breath!

That’s another thing that this lockdown has done to us all, so hopefully it won’t be long before all the wind ups and piss takes begin again for real, as I wonder how long it’ll be before I hear the individual shouts of “fuck off Everton” once again!

Darren Hind
70 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:25:16
Fair play Rob

Istory is deffo on your side. I'll still be risking a pearl diver

Mark Murphy
71 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:29:40
England can f#ck off - never been arsed - never will be.
UTFT!
Paul Tran
72 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:33:18
I wouldn't have a penny on England in the Euros. Mentally weak with a back four like a wide open door.
Thomas Richards
73 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:36:34
Me neither Paul.
9/2 currently.
If I were giving odds it would be around 8s
Paul Tran
74 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:41:51
When it comes to a tournament, its always work looking at England's opponent's odds just before games. The pissed up punters often go steaming in late and distort the odds. Made me a few bob over the years.
Thomas Richards
75 Posted 06/06/2021 at 21:43:27
Betting with the heart not the head Paul.
A bookies dream scenario
Darren Hind
76 Posted 06/06/2021 at 22:00:28
Paul T

Where the fuck have you been lad ? Good to see you back and talking your customary hard nosed sense.

You are a shrewdy alright, but I'll always get a warmer welcome down the bookies than you will

Me fiver stands. But its really good to see you back on TW.

Kev Jones
77 Posted 06/06/2021 at 22:04:12
Peter# 45 Southgate sounds like a manger who has listened to the experience of his players and is supporting their desire to stand up for racial justice. With so little to cheer the crowd drowning out the boo boys was one hopeful note.
Peter Mills
78 Posted 06/06/2021 at 22:19:17
I reckon DCL is developing all the time, and will learn from this latest little piece of nonsense. He is going to be a very good player.

Tony and Dave, have a word with that other member of your family!

Paul Tran
79 Posted 06/06/2021 at 22:42:30
Cheers Darren. I've been really busy with work and I took a break from here, watching Everton was depressing enough as it was! Blame Mr Gaynes, who kept asking me when I was coming back on here!

GT entered Market Rasen on Friday - last run before summer break.after his fall last time out. Watch out for two others I have a share in - Name of Fame won last time out and Gold Link, 2nd last three races, but very, very promising.

For me, losing Carlo is neither a tragedy nor humiliating. The football was garbage, results were poor, he took a better offer. May work out well for us if we get the recruitment right. Let's see who we find this time.

John Skelly
80 Posted 06/06/2021 at 23:02:20
So we are agreed Henderson is a school yard bully and DCL needs to grow some.
Danny O’Neill
81 Posted 06/06/2021 at 23:06:25
Darren @27 that just had me laughing. Quality.

I'm not going to totally discount his footballing ability, but Henderson is one of those players who influences the team through his presence. Liverpool recently have had two of them, Milner being the other.

They're good players but not the best. But it's their presence that matters to the team. Surround players like that with quality and they will influence.

Totally different level, but the closest we've had recently was Phil Neville during Moyes' reign. Not the best, and I often would rather have had someone with more ability in the team, but when he didn't play, you could see the impact on the team in my opinion.

Jack Convery
82 Posted 07/06/2021 at 04:12:23
A pity Godfrey didn't pick the ball up to take the pen - he'd have told 'belHendo' were to shove it.
Barry Hesketh
83 Posted 07/06/2021 at 08:11:31
Ben Godfrey will get a rest this summer as Brighton's Ben White is selected to replace the injured guy, can't mind his name as he's rarely mentioned in the press.
Michael Lynch
84 Posted 07/06/2021 at 09:09:36
I'm not surprised Southgate picked White over Godfrey - he looks the more complete player right now - but I'd have taken Ward-Prowse. Of course, with Southgate being so cautious in his style, England need about a million defenders so they can play five of them at the back, with no place for Grealish, who looks by far the most creative and dangerous player in the squad.

I don't think you can blame DCL for not lamping the odious Henderson; the RS had the captain's armband, it was his call on the pitch. Southgate should have subbed him off immediately after missing the pen though, because he was clearly going against the manager's wishes. Big Dunc would have subbed him and shoved a dead pigeon up his arse.

Rashford shouldn't be in the starting line-up, he's so out of form.

Dave Abrahams
85 Posted 07/06/2021 at 09:47:33
Peter (78) yes Peter, never been able to convince Michael, my older son, about DCL, each to their own, and he was the one who followed Everton everywhere when he was young, hitch hiking to loads of games, now he is not too bothered about watching the Blues, you would like Sonny, you’ve spoke to him on the phone, my grandson and Tony’s son, he has had a tenner on Duncan to be the new Everton manager!! Each to their own!!
Mick Conalty
86 Posted 07/06/2021 at 10:24:33
What's the point in playing centre forward for England, you never get a pass.
Midfield just play amongst themselves. Tossers.
Calvert Lewin needs to be like Kane and go looking for the ball, instead of wandering around like a lost soul.
Tony Abrahams
87 Posted 07/06/2021 at 11:05:44
Sometimes/often when the football has been dreadful, listening to our kid slagging DCL, has been the only enjoyment I’ve had Peter, but I remember him telling me, Sharp, gave him a bit back, when he was struggling in his early years at Everton.

Give us a good team and we will always back them, but sometimes I’m glad we can still be a very unforgiving crowd, and you only have to see last season’s home record for real proof of this!

Barry Hesketh
88 Posted 07/06/2021 at 11:20:31
Incredible how the impartial pundits always manage to turn whatever the incident as a positive towards anybody connected to LFC and if it happens to be a person connected to Everton FC involved make it as negative as possible.

I do wonder how much it costs FSG to maintain this level of media love.

Danny Murphy told talkSPORT on Monday morning that Everton striker, Dominic Calvert-Lewin, should ‘understand what your place is’ in England’s squad after his penalty drama involving Liverpool’s Jordan Henderson.

Rather than criticise the Liverpool midfielder for taking the spot-kick off the Everton man, which was then saved by Romania’s goalkeeper, Murphy opted to hit out at the Everton player instead.

The former Liverpool man claimed that Calvert-Lewin should be ‘thankful’ for his place in the squad and suggested that he was ‘sulking’ before Henderson took the penalty.

This is what Murphy had to say about the Liverpool and Everton duo after yesterday’s penalty incident:

“I don’t mind that (Henderson taking the ball),” said Murphy. “I couldn’t care less really in a friendly.

“The two penalty takers were off. He’s the captain. He decided I want to take it. He flexed his muscles ‘I am the captain and I am going to take it’. Fine. No problem with that.

“You have got to be careful. You have a place in the squad and you have to understand what your place is.

“Calvert-Lewin if you see the penalty. When Jordan took the penalty, Calvert-Lewin has got his hands on his hips. He doesn’t go for the rebound because he’s sulking because he didn’t take it.

“He has had a wonderful season but he should be thankful that he is there. He didn’t have a great end to the season. You don’t spit your dummy out because your captain is taking the penalty.”

If anybody should be thankful that they are in the squad it should be the absolutely shocking Henderson.

Jack Convery
89 Posted 07/06/2021 at 11:34:22
Smurphy spouting shite again how surprising. Why the f*ck is he a so called expert anyway ? Middling midfielder who the RS and Spurs ditched. If anyone should know his place its Smurphy. By the way Henderson was amazing in the latter part of the season - ha ha ha.

On another matter FFS Everton step in and buy Ward Prowse before Villa buy him - send Davies / Gomes the other way. They've almost completed the signing of Buendia - what are you playing at ?

Ward Prowse will be fully rested as Southgate has not included him in the 26 - idiot.

Barry Hesketh
90 Posted 07/06/2021 at 11:42:13
Jack @89
Fully agree with your shout to get Ward-Prowse, he's very unlucky not to have been included in Southgate's squad. I think England might not survive the group stages especially if they shoehorn Henderson into the starting eleven.
Steve Brown
91 Posted 07/06/2021 at 11:52:09
Barry @ 88, that is some twisted red shite garbage right there. The captain in question is a crap player and so unfit he can only play 45 minutes.

Fortunately it is England, so no-one cares.

Brian Williams
92 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:02:33
That gobshite Murphy showing that we don't have a monopoly on being bitter.
What a complete load of shit he came up with. So a striker who's scored more or less regularly all season and has scored a penalty for England or a player who's been out injured for months and has never scored for England?
What a complete twat!

Thomas Richards
93 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:05:26
I think Murphy is not far off.

DCL, imo, started to believe his own publicity in the second half of the season.
His attitude definitely changed.

Barry Hesketh
94 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:25:11
Thomas @93
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm afraid I strongly disagree with it.
Thomas Richards
95 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:34:06
👍 No worries Barry.
Martin Berry
96 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:47:30
I thought that DCL had a good game and showed again the danger he poses from set pieces/crosses.
As for Godfrey he looked very nervous and unsure playing in an unnatural position for him, rarely broke forward and played too many back passes. That said he is a centre half and he is very young and has plenty of time.
As for Henderson the good news is that Henderson wont be taking anymore pens and will be behind Pickford in the pecking order.
Henderson has offered no apology or reason either but good to see that Southgate will sort him and the penalty situation out.
Over rated player who will hopefully just fill in for Rice/Mount in the centre.
Jack Convery
97 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:47:45
Can we expect Kane, hendo and DCL to reprise the famous class sketch featuring Cleese, Barker and Corbett soon.
Stan Schofield
98 Posted 07/06/2021 at 12:52:43
Thomas@93: I usually agree with what you say, but not on this occasion. I don’t think you can conclude what you have. It strikes me that DCL has rightly become more confident in his ability, and that that would naturally show in his body language. He’s a bloody good striker, he knows it, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Best to ignore pundits, they tend to talk drivel.

Thomas Richards
99 Posted 07/06/2021 at 13:34:08
Thanks Stan,

I have backed DCL all the way through his young career, as far back as when he got stick because a fool played him wide.
I still back him 100%.

Just something that has crept into his game, seen him throw his arms up after a misplaced pass, doesn't acknowledge the good balls as he used to.

I love to see arrogance in a player but only when the player is of a standard to warrant it.
All part of his development, hopefully the senior players can have a quiet word.

Danny O’Neill
100 Posted 07/06/2021 at 13:43:33
Dominic has made great strides this season with his in the box play and trying to finish early.

His next step, and the difference between him and Kane, is to improve his outside the box play.

And I don't mean going back to chasing channels. If he can improve his longer range shooting, he can become a more complete striker.

Grahame Sharpe is a good example for us older Evertonians. Could tumble them in unspectacularly from 3 yards (the 4 - 4) but could also smash them from distance. "That" Anfield goal.

That's the bit I see just lacking slightly from Dominic's game. But I don't want to be harsh great progress by the lad and he can get better.

Stan Schofield
101 Posted 07/06/2021 at 13:49:13
Thomas, yes, I get your point, but the so-called pundit was talking shite as usual. His defence of Henderson’s unseemly action is just as unseemly, and typical of LFC’s rough-edged lack of sporting behaviour. DCL’s response couldn’t really have been other than it was, the alternative being an embarrassing spat between him and Henderson worthy of LFC’s style but outwith the more mature attitude of other clubs and players including Everton and DCL.
Andrew Keatley
102 Posted 07/06/2021 at 13:50:07
Agree with the other posters who think Ward-Prowse should be part of the 26. He should have been in from the start; brilliant dead-ball specialist - which is where England tend to have been a threat in recent times - who works incredibly hard, makes clever decisions on and off the ball, presses very well, is neat and tidy and is happy to do the hard work to free up players like Mount, Foden and Grealish. With the lack of central midfield options - especially with Henderson (who I do actually rate) coming back from injury - England are an injury away from being extremely short-stacked in central midfield, and perhaps having no real choice but to rely on a 17-year-old. Ward-Prowse is the sort of selfless player who enables others to shine. Rice and Henderson also have that approach. Ben White is a very good footballer, and he played well against Romania, but Ward-Prowse should not just be going to the Euros, he should be in and around the starting XI for me.
Thomas Richards
103 Posted 07/06/2021 at 13:58:27
Stan,

Good points mate.
Taken on board.

John Kavanagh
104 Posted 07/06/2021 at 14:11:50
DCL must feel right at home in Southgate's England set up - hardly ever sees a decent cross and has slow midfield dross like Henderson in the engine room when there are better players available.

Maybe Moshiri is holding back waiting for Southgate to become available after the group stages. Losing sleep over this nightmare scenario already.

Kenny Smith
105 Posted 07/06/2021 at 14:26:01
Henderson is the king of kings when it comes to shithousery.
The marketable new media darling Ben White who was played in his preferred position goes instead of out of position Godfrey ? Both are better than Codey and Mings.
Sorry I’ve nothing constructive to say about any of it. It was either type angry on here or shout at the dog for doing zilch…..
Brian Wilkinson
106 Posted 07/06/2021 at 16:01:29
That is the problem with Everton at the moment, a very easy target for pundits and the press, saw that first hand with the on going Pickford blame.

Dom wanted to take the penalty, he was the only striker on the pitch, what Hendo did was purely because it was Dom, and not Kane or Rashford.

Now you have pundits having a go at Dom, and see no problem with Hendo.

Now let us look at it in another light, Hendo picks the ball up, Dom takes it off Hendo, then misses the penalty.

Does anyone believe the press would not have hounded Dom, for taking the ball off Hendo, he would have been crucified by every pundit and media outlet, and that my fellow posters is where Everton are easy meat, for the pundits, or media.

Daniel A Johnson
107 Posted 07/06/2021 at 16:54:05
Tbh I’m sure Godfrey is gutted but the more our players stay out of the poisonous international cess pit the better.

Nothing good for EFC ever comes from it

Ray Said
108 Posted 07/06/2021 at 17:43:49
Daniel (107),

I could not agree more with your post. Calvert-Lewin for example, heads off to the England camp, comes back and starts dropping deeper and deeper like Kane but without the goals. He will come back from the Euros spouting the 'club doesn't match my ambition' and will want a move. I rate Dom a lot but fear his head is already being turned...

Matthew Williams
109 Posted 07/06/2021 at 17:59:16
The pick of the players for me was Ward-Prowse, a great little player and has the best dead-ball delivery in the Premier League.

Not a great game, our lads did okay, Dom was unlucky with his header and Ben improved as the game went on.

I was expecting a few goals at least having seen the Welsh lads struggle against Albania the day before... please don't start me off with that penalty miss by that Liverpool fucker... England just need to fill their Midfield with creative players and just go it! But they won't.

Thomas Richards
110 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:07:38
Ray,

Dominic Calvert-Lewin hints at Everton exit in future

Modern-day football unfortunately.

Barry Hesketh
111 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:13:38
Thomas @110
If Dominic didn't say he wanted to play Champions League football at some point in his career, he'd be classed as one of those unambitious types who are happy to pick up their paycheck. Because he was probably asked about his ambitions as a player he replied honestly and for me his statement isn't a sign of him growing too big for his boots or demanding that he leaves for a better opportunity elsewhere, it merely conveys what he'd like to achieve in the game either here or elsewhere.

He told L’Equipe, “I am happy at Everton. I worked hard to become number nine at this club and score goals like I did recently.

“Personally, I have the ambition to one day play in the Champions League and win titles. But for now, I’m happy at Everton.”

Jeff Armstrong
112 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:14:52
Who's "Hendo"?

Is he part of the cult of cunts that includes “Trent” and

“Carra”?? 😁

Thomas Richards
113 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:25:52
I posted a link, Barry, to Ray's post. The players from bigger clubs tap their international teamates on behalf of their club managers all the time mate.

I was agreeing with Ray's general point.

Darren Hind
114 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:36:55
It never ceases to amaze me how often the guy who has wrested the ball away from a team mate to take a penalty misses the fucking thing.

Once you've gone down that route, you simply have to score. Miss and you make a total twat of yourself.

I have no problem whatsoever watching Henderson make a complete Cheshire cat of himself... Highlight of the match.

Colin Glassar
115 Posted 07/06/2021 at 18:43:43
Mirallas, Darren? All so he could do his poncey crossing and looking up to the heavens to his dead mate. The modern players make me cringe with their fake religiosity (should be banned), playing to the cameras, play acting in general, hair buns and ponytails etc... what next? Makeup? Fuck that. Give me Mike Pejic and his broken nose and two-footed tackles any day.

Calvert-Lewin is the epitome of the modern day player, ie, all smiles and not a mean bone in his body.

Danny O’Neill
116 Posted 07/06/2021 at 19:19:41
It is normally decided before a match who the penalty taker is.

Shouldn't be anything to do with who won the penalty or who the ego is. In my humble experience, it doesn't matter who wins the penalty or who the gobshite on the pitch is who thinks he should take it.

You already have decided who is taking it. This season for us, when on the pitch, it was Sigurdsson. These things are decided before kick off.

Weakness from Southgate for allowing it in my opinion.

Anthony Dove
117 Posted 07/06/2021 at 19:36:17
Type or paste your comment here. PLEASE capitalise initial letters of proper names and use proper grammar. No txt-speak; all-lowercase posts are likely to be deleted
Anthony Dove
118 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:00:54
I see Ben White is the replacement player in the
England squad. Whilst I am disappointed that he
is ahead of Godfrey in the pecking order I think
Ben will benefit from a summer’s rest.
The problem is that thanks to Carlo we have all
forgotten what Is Ben’s best position. He may
even have forgotten himself.
Next season I would pair him with Keane in the
centre and give them a good run of games. You will
never end up with a good defence if you change the
personnel and the system every match, but hey ho
that was Carlo.
I reckon there is a fair chance Southgate will be
available in a months time but let’s hope we’ve
got someone by then.
Stan Schofield
119 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:10:24
Barry@11: Spot on. If DCL is happy to stay at Everton, he’s a born loser unless we start competing properly and qualifying for the Champions League next season and onwards. EFC is expert at talking the talk about ambition whilst achieving fuckall, and any player with real potential won’t put up with that shit for long.
Mick O'Malley
120 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:11:03
Colin @115 I agree with you, it absolutely pisses me off the amount of times he fucks around with that ridiculous bun, I am also beginning to hate modern football,Everton included which is something I never thought I’d ever say
Thomas Richards
121 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:21:15
Danny,

Southgate did an after match interview where he said "My two designated penalty takers, Rashford and Ward Prowse were not on the pitch"

Brian Wilkinson
122 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:23:58
Why is everyone worried about Dom thinking about a champs league club, Tosun is chomping at the bit and raring to go.

Just wish Calvert-Lewin would have spoken up, before we allowed Sandro to leave.

Paul Hewitt
123 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:35:21
Why wouldn't DCL want to leave Everton for a team challenging for trophies in the future?. He doesn't support Everton, the only reason he is here is because we pay him.
Dale Self
124 Posted 07/06/2021 at 20:45:58
Nice flamethrower you got there Paul. Going forward if you could provide some extra context so we know if it's worth responding to or not that much would be appreciated..
Mike Gaynes
125 Posted 07/06/2021 at 21:19:18
Context?
Dale Self
126 Posted 07/06/2021 at 21:24:19
You know, like why one would believe that a player coming up thru the system and served the team well does not actually support the team.
Paul Hewitt
127 Posted 07/06/2021 at 21:34:22
What context does it need?.it's straight forward, once a big club comes calling DCL will be off. I could type 1000 words but the meaning would be the same. And I've wasted 10 minutes.
Dale Self
128 Posted 07/06/2021 at 21:44:36
And you've yet to establish in all that time spent that DCL does not support Everton FC. That is why there was a request for context. Say simply inflammatory stuff, get into a chat like this.
Justin Doone
129 Posted 07/06/2021 at 22:53:35
Every Everton player, fan and associated person or organisation should want to win cups, league titles and play champions league football.

I want the same thing. But realistically Everton appear unlikely to achieve that. So we need to show ambition and improvement to keep everyone happy.

If a winning club, a seriously good or ambitious clubs wants our player or our player want out for a chance to win trophies I have no issue with it. It's not nice, ideal but that's football, it happens.

As for the penalty fiasco, Dom is new to the squad, he was respecting the team captain. It was a friendly. No big deal, let the manager deal with it.

We don't know if Dom would have scored. Move on.

As for White coming in, I think he's a better centre back, possibly England's best centre back, but not as fast or as adaptable as our Godfrey.

I would have taken him anyway but I'd also take wardprowse and the villa forward. Southgate selection is too safe. Thank god he saw some sense to take Grealish, a top talent and along with Foden should start all the important games.

Paul Hewitt
130 Posted 08/06/2021 at 05:41:53
Dale@128. DCL is a Sheffield United fan.
Mike Gaynes
131 Posted 08/06/2021 at 07:57:59
Dale #126, yep, that's all the "context" you're going to get from this particular poster.
Eddie Dunn
132 Posted 08/06/2021 at 08:20:00
As for the criticism of Henderson -he was the senior player, established and picked to provide leadership. That is why Dom(not known for his deadball expertise) allowed him to go ahead and take the pen. Everyone has one saved occasionally.
I'm not in favour of taking unfit players to tournaments but in this incident I can't see a problem.
I think there would be a reasonable chance of Dom missing it anyway and that would not have been good for him.
Andrew Ellams
133 Posted 08/06/2021 at 08:20:04
Dale, DCL didn't come up through the system at Everton, he was signed as an 18 year old from Sheffield United the club that his whole family supports.
Paul Hewitt
134 Posted 08/06/2021 at 08:30:58
Mike@131. Your right.That is all the context he's getting from this particular poster😁
Danny O’Neill
135 Posted 08/06/2021 at 08:40:10
That puts it into context Thomas (121).
Stan Schofield
136 Posted 08/06/2021 at 09:00:41
Unfortunately for Everton, we haven’t really progressed from midtable status since Moshiri came here, despite all the talk of a ‘project’ to improve us and get us into Europe. Last season was arguably a tipping point for us, in that we had an opportunity to be higher up the table, by virtue of a good first-choice 11 aided by a high profile manager and some good new signings. But we missed this opportunity, primarily because of very poor home form, but in a wider sense because we lack strength-in-depth beyond the first-choice 11.

The high-profile manager has gone, and we appear to be back to square one in terms of progress. In this respect, any hope that we could retain our top players has also gone, and it’s difficult to see the likes of Digne, Richarlison, DCL and Rodriguez staying here much longer.

Whether such players love or support Everton is irrelevant, because they are professionals who want the best opportunities to play in the Champions League and win a trophy or two. And they can probably see clearly, just as us supporters can, that they won’t be able to achieve that with Everton. So we’re very likely to remain midtable for the foreseeable future.

Derek Knox
137 Posted 08/06/2021 at 15:00:58
I know this is not the right thread, but in the absence of one, I shall just say that I watched Toffee TV before, and they had one of their guests on, (The Piv) and he came out with a few good and sensible possibilities for choosing the next Manager.

It was fairly obvious that neither Carlo, or Silva, were reading from the same sheet as Marcel Brands, which is counter productive. What this guy suggested was that Marcel Brands played the major role in deciding who the next Manager would be.

Obviously someone who HE could work with, and agree on both style, formations and forays into the Transfer Market, otherwise it could be case of the recent pretty abject and wasteful History repeating itself. Personally I would welcome a no nonsense Manager, and let's get away from this sentimentality when discussing our new incumbent.

By that I mean, we all love Duncan and his passion but is he really ready for the job ? I think that has been a major part of the problem, since Farhad Moshiri came on Board. Let's face it I could probably write on the back of a Postage Stamp what he knows about Football.

I also think he has not only been ill-advised, but possibly duped too into believing that his generosity, of which should have been a Godsend, would make good Investments in both the appointing Club Managers and Players alike. Instead we have a mish-mash of a squad, some good, few very good, but largely not good enough.

A sad indictment, when you think of the amount of money expended, and what we have actually ended up with!

Gerry Quinn
138 Posted 08/06/2021 at 21:43:29
Just read this

Ex Redshite midfielder Danny Murphy stated that Calvert-Lewin needs to “understand what his place is” and accused him of “sulking” when Henderson took the ball off him for the penalty.

However, historical comments have come to light which shows Murphy’s stance is utterly biased against Everton.

A similar incident to Sunday occurred in December 2017, when Crystal Palace striker Christian Benteke took the ball from designated penalty-taker Luka Miliovojevic and subsequently missed.

Murphy branded Benteke “self-indulgent and selfish” and called for the Belgian to be benched for their next game.

So what’s changed now? Four years may have passed, but has Murphy suddenly changed his opinion after years of playing and discussing elite-level football?

That is unlikely, and his recent comments smack of bias towards the Redshite and their players and highlights his anti-Everton agenda. Hopefully, someone shows Murphy his embarrassing 2017 comments and he can offer an on-air apology or explain how his stance has shifted over the years.

Anthony A Hughes
139 Posted 08/06/2021 at 21:49:56
Murphy is just another from a long line of absolute c**ts. Pure biased drivel rolls from their venomous, putrid tongues
Kev Jones
140 Posted 09/06/2021 at 08:52:18
Whatever else he might be, Henderson is right about standing together on racism when taking the knee. There is no each to their own with racism.
Stan Schofield
141 Posted 09/06/2021 at 11:44:09
Kev@140: Re your last statement, yes there is. Are you the racism thought police?
Kev Jones
142 Posted 09/06/2021 at 14:33:20
I was being thoughtful about the great statement by Jordan Henderson on taking the knee. I don't drive a Z-Car but do you have a guilty conscience?
Stan Schofield
143 Posted 09/06/2021 at 16:49:05
Kev@142: No, and I’m not a posturing poser either.
Kev Jones
144 Posted 09/06/2021 at 17:19:08
Me neither Stan. It would be good to hear your views on the substance of what I wrote.
Martin Mason
145 Posted 09/06/2021 at 17:34:19
Kev@140

The taking the knee issue was about racism when it was done once. When it was done once the point was made and once should have been the limit. Every other time since then has been a total waste of the issue. Taking the knee for Western people is a act of subjugation and should never have been done more than once to support the racism issue. Taking the knee should be stopped immediately and trying to incriminate fans for booing about it even faster. Continuing it is pure stupidity now as it is becoming bigger than the game and it isn't. Are modern black players the victim of racism from whites? Not in a million years, they are excellent examples of Black privilege.

Thomas Richards
146 Posted 09/06/2021 at 17:42:54
"Are modern black players the victim of racism from whites"

Ask the players who get the monkey emojis on a regular basis Martin.

Dale Self
147 Posted 09/06/2021 at 17:55:54
I'm going to resist the expletives here Martin but in no uncertain terms you've fully embarrassed yourself here. That insipid rage you feign is getting be a tiresome act. The players have the power to do this and have come together and decided that this is a necessary act. Events before and since have only reinforced that position. Deal with it. Those you've minimized do all the damn time.
Brent Stephens
148 Posted 09/06/2021 at 18:20:53
Martin "Taking the knee for Western people is a act of subjugation".

On the wind-up again, Martin!

Ron Sear
149 Posted 09/06/2021 at 18:45:58
Brent (148) Not taking the knee may mean you get burnt by dragons as Dickon and Randyll Tarly found out in GOT. A metaphor here perhaps.
Colin Glassar
150 Posted 09/06/2021 at 18:48:13
“Black privilege”? Keep on digging, Martin.
Terry Downes
151 Posted 09/06/2021 at 19:01:49
If I was earning £50,000 a week, they could call me anything they wanted. I wouldn't give a shit, that's my take on it.
Kev Jones
152 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:16:12
Martin #145 Unfortunately racism is so ingrained in our society it is necessary to continually raise the issues until change happens.

Western traditions include taking the knee to the monarch and Martin Luther King also took the knee as a symbol of peaceful protest, so what’s the problem?

No one is trying to incriminate fans - the boo boys are being challenged to explain why they are booing a peaceful protest by footballers for racial equality. If they then find themselves accused of racism what do they expect? If you agree with anti racist sentiment, don’t want to be identified as racist but don’t agree with taking the knee, then why not support the greater cause and stay silent?

Dale Self
153 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:23:10
Nice approach Kev. I should have taken a walk around and come back to it in your style.
Kevin Molloy
154 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:24:07
Kev
what if they don't want to stay silent. Or is it the case that unless they want to be accused of being racist it's stay silent or stay silent?
Am I not allowed to disagree with my favourite pastime adopting a deeply subservient gesture from a marxist organisation before each and every game that I watch, on account of events which took place thousands of miles away? We've had Kick it Out for decades, and everybody supports that, why do we also need this to be rammed down our throats every time we play? My strong contention is that the UK is not a systemically racist society, so why should I support this continuing protest. I flat out don't agree with it. In fact, find it insulting. I think Britain is not perfect but also one of the most tolerant and open places to live. I'd like to know if you can list many places better.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

155 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:26:19
@ 145.

I mean...seriously?

Thomas Richards
156 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:36:11
"Its a marxist organisation."

Right wing propaganda.

Kevin Molloy
157 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:42:30
Thomas no, not propaganda. their stated aim is the overthrow of capitalism, and they were set up by marxists.
Dale Self
158 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:46:11
Whatever Kevin, the players have the ability to protest and you have the ability to turn the tv set off. Simples, how it is.
Dave Lynch
159 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:49:59
Totally agree with Kevin Malloy.

I grew up in a multi racial Liverpool, my parents instilled equality in me.

I'm an NHS nurse and some of the best Dr's and nurses I've ever had the pleasure of working with are ethnic.

If BLM want to be taken seriously why haven't their own come out and pointed the finger at those who shot that girl in the head.

I won't take any knee, I'll show my respect by being a decent human being thank you very much.

Thomas Richards
160 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:51:23
Kevin 157,

Who are "they"

Dave 159,

"If BLM want to be taken seriously why haven't their own come out and pointed the finger at those who shot that girl in the head"

Thier own?

Can you explain that please

Albert Perkins
161 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:59:19
Martin Mason. I like the fact that you don't want to feel that the UK has systemic racism. I believe you don't see it because you don't want to see it because it means you are part of the problem. You don't want to be part of the problem and that's good. Unfortunately you are accusing millions of people of color of lying about their treatment on a daily basis. As a white person I took some time to research the situation with an interested group of fellows last summer. The results were shocking. I don't want to think you are a racist, but lazy thinking can make you appear that way.
Terry Downes
162 Posted 09/06/2021 at 21:59:26
Are any other countries taking the the knee or just us? If so why do we feel the need to do it? Are we actually saying we are more racist than the other countries?

As for keeping quiet, why is it if someone doesn't agree with the left stance we're all classed as racist and have to be quiet? Enough is enough. Even Zaha is refusing to take the knee now.

Paul Tran
163 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:10:27
Kevin #157 have you got a link for that claim about the 'organisation' called 'Black Lives Matter'? One from the organisation itself?
Albert Perkins
164 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:12:22
Dave Lynch. I applaud your actions for equality, but the whole problem around systemic racism is that it creates an unequal society where people of color are neglected in all areas of society. They get less education and job possibilities and over generations it is harder to find successful examples to follow in the community and many live with a poverty of money and potential. Frustration creates bad choices like killing within your community. They never had an equal chance. That's where we need to focus our actions around equality.
Brent Stephens
165 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:13:18
Kevin #157 "their stated aim is the overthrow of capitalism, and they were set up by marxists."

Kevin, I think we need to distinguish between BLM (capitals) and blm (lower case). What I mean by that is that I'm sure the vast majority of people who identify with the black lives matter movement (movement, not a formal organisation) are not marxists, and are just expressing their opposition to racism.

On the other hand, there seems to be a formal organisation, calling itself BLM (capitals) who might well be marxists, but that's a formal organisation I (and I guess the majority of blm - lower case - people) became aware of after starting to support certain activities (labelled as blm) which support anti-racism.

We shouldn't confuse one with the other.

Andrew Ellams
166 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:14:15
Kevin Molloy, the BLM are Marxists line is a piece of nonsense created by far right groups so that racists can have a reason to bring down BLM without sounding racist. It doesn't work.
Kevin Molloy
167 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:23:42
Paul
the official blm website has undergone alot of changes since summer last year, as people threw up their hands in horror. Here is an article though at the time of a journalist who went onto their website, and you can see what was on there from his words
https://thecritic.co.uk/i-was-fired-for-criticising-blm/
Brent Stephens
168 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:26:23
Kevin, the BLM website doesn't represent blm supporters like me. I've never looked at the website. I know many blm (lower case) supporters - none are anywhere near marxists.

You're confused, fellah.

Dale Self
169 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:26:53
From the title alone that looks like a really reliable source there.
Dave Lynch
170 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:29:44
TR@ 160.
I never used the term "Their own".

What do I have to explain? The fact that it was black on black killing?

Not for me to explain anything.

For the record, I despise any group of individuals who attempt to segregate, demean, vilify, oppress and stir up hatred no matter what race, colour or creed they maybe.

Religion, and politics only seek to divide and control people for the benefit of the few.

Im having no part of any of it, I've got life to live and intend to live it as as best I can.

Kevin Prytherch
171 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:31:41
Albert 164 - less education opportunities isn’t necessarily true. It is far easier for a person from an ethnic minority background to get into a top university with lesser qualifications than a white person. This is because they have their set quotas to fill, so regardless of the quality of applicants, a certain percentage of ethnic minority candidates will get in regardless.

Please could you also give examples of systematic racism in this country that is current and not historic? As far as I can see there are the same opportunities right through school for any child, which will then feed into employment. Numerous studies have in fact proven that it is white working class boys who are treated worse throughout school - where is the support for them? Or does that not fit the narrative of people’s reading?

As Kevin has pointed out, Kick it out is roundly supported in this country, so why now continue with a symbol that is directly linked to Black Lives Matter, whatever the intention is.

I find it equally shocking that this gesture is continually going ahead when atrocities such as the Rochdale grooming gangs still fighting against deportation are happening. Those poor teenage girls have to walk about knowing that they could bump into the gangs who systematically raped and impregnated them because they fight for their ‘human rights’. Where is the support for them? Or do they not deserve support because of their white privilege?

I fully support equality for all and find racism abhorrent, but Black Lives Matter is not the way to eradicate racism and divisive gestures will do nothing but stir up racial tension and racial divides.

Kevin Molloy
172 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:31:53
Brent
yes, I think that is the distinction Gareth Southgate is also trying to draw. The fact remains though that this demo is inextricably linked with an organisation that many people object to, hence the booing.
Brent Stephens
173 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:35:47
Kevin "this demo is inextricably linked with an organisation that many people object to",

It's you who are making a false link. I very much doubt these people link with that organisation. I, and many like me, certainly don't.

An analogy, Kevin. You call yourself an Everton man. Everton has Kenwright as Chairman. Does that make you a Kenwright man? Of course not.

Supporters are not the formal organisation. That goes for fans of the blm movement just as it does for fans of Everton.

Dale Self
174 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:45:54
Framing the reaction to racism and the protests against it as the actual sources that "stir up racial tension and racial divides" is one of the most tortured pieces of polemics that I've ever come across. And I use to be an economist.

A simple look at traffic ticketing practices will give you an elementary primer on the existence of racism. Run all the regressions you want and if that race parameter is significant, well there you go. Many social science research papers can provide you the knowledge that racism currently is practiced in even the most advanced countries. But it is on you to give it an honest look.

Kevin Prytherch
175 Posted 09/06/2021 at 23:38:43
Dale - you miss the point. It is not framing the reaction to racism and the protests against it, it is the reaction to Black Lives Matter and the protests that rose from it.

The divide and tension is stirred by the political ideologies and the question of “why do Black Lives Matter more than any other life?”, which is a question asked by many. If you disagree with the last part then you are either naive or are not being honest with yourself. I’m not saying that anyone who takes the knee believes that this is the case, I’m confident that the vast majority want equality for all. However, as previously mentioned, where is the support for other ethnic groups, or any other protected characteristic, who suffer similarly? The movement if focussed on racism and specifically one race, which is in itself a definition of racism.

The taking of the knee was associated with Black Lives Matter because of the way that George Floyd died. The gesture will always be associated with the movement and will always cause tension. Therefore, why not choose a gesture that is not divisive. The very nature of the comments on here suggest that there is no universal support, so why not gesture in a way that does gain universal support.

I’m not saying that racism in this country doesn’t exist, it obviously does. But it does not exist anywhere near as much as other countries and is considered as socially unacceptable as drink driving - both of which were socially accepted 30-40 years ago. We have made massive strides in this country to get to where we are now and this continued divisive gesture does absolutely nothing to help this.

Kieran Kinsella
176 Posted 09/06/2021 at 23:51:44
Kevin

If you know yer history, you’ll know Herman Goerring at Nuremberg explained he was never against Jews he was against bankers and communists, and it just happened that many of them were Jews. While he towed that line his mates happily carried on exterminating Jews indiscrimately. Do not insult our intelligence on here by claiming you or anyone else fears a Red takeover by marxists and therefore cannot acknowledge obvious systemic racism. I do not believe for one second that anyone actually believes that. I believe it’s a convenient excuse for people who are racist be it mildly or rabidly.

Kevin Molloy
177 Posted 10/06/2021 at 00:06:49
without dignifying Kieran's post with a direct reply, this is the bind that people with misgivings about these demonstrations find themselves in. It's either shut up, or face these disgusting insults. And so people keep quiet in the main.
Albert Perkins
178 Posted 10/06/2021 at 01:15:32
I was a special education teacher for 25 years and taught in London, New York and the Bay Area, west coast of the US. All of my students of color in all of those places had many more challenges to success than did my white students. My cousins in Liverpool have brown skinned children. They are respectable members of our society with great kids who want to do well. Every day they face racism in all its small and large expressions. Anyone who doesn't appreciate this situation is turning a blind eye to it. The reason it's Black lives matter is that the black lives are the most vulnerable and oppressed, yes, oppressed and if we lift them up, we will all be lifted. You don't believe that inciting racist attitudes are not part of a political ploy to divide us while we are all exploited? I had to open my mind to find some truth. It hurt to find I was part of the problem. I don't intend for that to continue. Maybe that's all I can offer on this subject.
Si Cooper
179 Posted 10/06/2021 at 02:25:02
Kevin (175), where does the imaginary ‘more than any other life’ addendum come from? From people who are trying to muddy the waters around what is a truly inoffensive display of support for people who have to deal with negative stereotyping based purely on their ethnicity perhaps?
Your other massive misconception comes from saying that the taking of the knee as support for those subjected to systemic racism originated with George Floyd’s murder (2020). It actually comes from Colin Kaepernick’s protest against standing to ‘salute’ the US flag before games, which he saw as simply accepting the injustices that permeate society. He actually changed from simply staying seated to kneeling as it was suggested it was more ‘respectful’ to the situation.
Hardly taking a torch to capitalism or seeking to swap one injustice for another.
Not your protest? Fine. Just respect those who want to make their opinion clear in a completely unprovocative manner.
Paul Tran
180 Posted 10/06/2021 at 07:31:20
Kevin #167, thanks for the link. One of many articles I've read by journalists claiming to have a line on 'Black Lives Matter'. Black Lives Matter is a (possibly deliberately?) loose collective of anti-racist organisations. No doubt some will be Marxist, no doubt most of them are fighting, like many of us have done down the years, for racial equality.

To suggest that I, a business owner, millionaire footballers, and many others are supporting a Marxist organisation looking to overthrow 'our' society is a fabulous piece of intellectual gymnastics. One can only speculate why some people are desperate to make that tenuous link.

Thomas Richards
181 Posted 10/06/2021 at 07:38:42
Dave Lynch
170 Posted 09/06/2021 at 22:29:44
Flag this comment
TR@ 160.
I never used the term "Their own"

Yes you did.

Kevin Prytherch
182 Posted 10/06/2021 at 08:44:55
Si 179 - please see Alberts post at 178 for the “imaginary more than any other life”. The problem with focussing on one particular race, regardless of whether that race is the most discriminated against, is that every other race is alienated and widespread support is lost - hence some of the booing. What I would advocate, and what I think Kevin and others would, is a gesture against racism that is not associated with Black Lives Matter that would gain universal support.

Also, I never said it originated from George Floyd, but is associated with it. It gained widespread popularity and, due to how he died, was immediately associated with it.

Years ago a law was passed saying that a husband could beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb - hence the expression “the rule of thumb”. You don’t think that every time that phrase is uttered people trace it back to its origins?

Dave Lynch
183 Posted 10/06/2021 at 09:00:04
Thomas@181

Apologies, I've just re read my post.

I'll quantify for you.

I was referring to the BLM "movement"and not trying to refer to black people as a whole.
That would be construed as a possible racist remark I'll grant you.

That young girl was a BLM activist, the group have done nothing to bring those murders to justice.

Kevin Molloy
184 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:04:04
Paul
I'm sorry but that just doesn't wash. BLM is an extremely high profile organisation, which had the players wearing their stuff and which had received donations to the tune of tens of millions over the last year. There is an inextricable link between the knee, the football league, the organisation and who set up that organisation. That's what Marxists do, they cause blue murder, with the idea of causing a revolution. Which incidentally is one of the first words which hits you in the eye when you go on the BLM website.I'm not suggesting you support Marx. But you are unwittingly supporting an extremely dubious organisation by supporting these protests. And people don't like it. Why? for me the body count alone has to make you pause. A hundred million deaths in the last hundred years, and not counting what may eventually be attributed to the communist party in China over the last year. They are corrupt, incompetent, and malevolent. Always.
Thomas Richards
185 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:14:44
Dave,

"That young girl was a BLM activist, the group have done nothing to bring those murders to justice"

What action could they have taken?

Kevin,

More right wing propaganda.

Kevin Molloy
186 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:22:17
which parts are propaganda, Thomas?
Thomas Richards
187 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:39:36
The blm Marxist connection Kevin

Are you suggesting ANYONE who takes a knee is marxist?

Kevin Molloy
188 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:46:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCghDx5qN4s
Kev Jones
189 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:54:42
Kevin #154

If people don’t want to stay silent that’s fine but ‘each to their own’, which implies tolerance and respect for different views, does not work with racism. If something that could be racist is happening it should be questioned and never be tolerated. If you support anti-racism but remain silent when racism rears its ugly head you might put your disagreement about a particular anti-racist tactic to one side and get off the fence, otherwise you will risk being seen as complicit by association.

I understand that you also think the BLM inspired protest is Marxist but I think that has been thoroughly refuted on this and other threads. I also don’t understand why taking the knee is seen as subservient rather than as a peaceful mark of respect. It was inspired by events thousands of miles away as you say but why has caught on here? I suggest it’s because the same issues about Black lives apply in the UK. Kick it out is a fantastic initiative but why has it has never provoked so much debate and support around anti-racism in football? I suggest it because BLM is born from and has touched the raw nerve of racism that deeply divides our society and many people don’t like to see this. Is it really being rammed down your throat? How long does the knee last for now, 5 seconds?

I also wondered if the experience of Covid has shaken your contention that the UK is not a systemically racist society? Covid has highlighted the deep fractures between the life chances and experience of black people in Britain in terms of worse outcomes in health, education and employment, hence the continuing need for protest. I think Black people might also disagree on just how tolerant Britain is. I’m glad I live in a UK metropolitan area because my experience of other areas is that they are less diverse and often much less tolerant.

Thomas Richards
190 Posted 10/06/2021 at 10:56:52
Are you suggesting ANYONE who takes a knee is marxist
Barry Rathbone
191 Posted 10/06/2021 at 11:06:19
Need a joint statement from Sterling and Kane to uncork this log jam of "should we/shouldn't we" along the lines of

"we support every attempt to deal with the evil that is racism but feel "the knee" has run it's course and is in danger of losing any positive association with the issue it was created to highlight. As such we won't be doing it before anymore England games"

Dave Lynch
192 Posted 10/06/2021 at 11:33:52
So Thomas.
You are of the opinion nobody knew or knows who pulled the trigger?
That's bollox... Someone knows.
Thomas Richards
193 Posted 10/06/2021 at 12:01:08
Dave.

"So Thomas.
You are of the opinion nobody knew or knows who pulled the trigger?"

What gave you that idea?

Dave Lynch
194 Posted 10/06/2021 at 12:28:30
Thomas.
"What action could they have take?"

They could make it known to the authorities who did it.

You can't lay blame on others for your lack of inequality or discrimination and then cover for people who are the same race because they are the same race.

We live in the "Now" not the past, we can't alter the past but we can shape the future for the better.

Kev Jones
195 Posted 10/06/2021 at 12:44:19

Kevin#184
An alternative view of the marxist stereotype haunting some on ToffeeWeb:

I think you are conflating marxism with the Stalinist communism of the USSR and China. Some of the first people into the Soviet gulags were the Marxist left opposition, anarchists and democratic socialists who opposed Stalin. Members of other oppositions in anarchist, marxist and socialist movements outside the Soviet Union were also murdered in Stalin’s attempt to destroy opposition to his rule.

Contemporary marxists take on board the terrible crimes and political mistakes committed by Stalinism in the USSR and China and attempt to change their political practices and organisation to reflect this.

To allay your anxieties you might enjoy this humorous take on marxism and football:

Link

Thomas Richards
196 Posted 10/06/2021 at 14:51:33
Dave,


"They could make it known to the authorities who did it."

How do you know they know "who did it"

Dave Lynch
197 Posted 10/06/2021 at 14:58:54
Communities talk... thats why.

Stop being divisive mate, someone knows, you know that and I know that.

Thomas Richards
198 Posted 10/06/2021 at 15:05:57
"Stop being divisive mate"

You couldnt make it up.

Kev Jones
199 Posted 10/06/2021 at 15:35:22
Kevin Prytherch #175 #182

BLM arose in the USA because of the higher numbers of black people murdered by the police in comparison to white people. In turn this highlighted other oppressions suffered in relation to health, education and life chances black people suffer in comparison to whites.

All the same, the focus on black lives has not stopped recognition and finding common ground with others, such as the police murder of Asian Americans. Nor the discrimination and oppression suffered by other people of colour or white working class Americans.

In the UK some white working class youth suffer similar economic oppression to black people but this oppression is not based on the colour of their skin.

White women in Rochdale are threatened because they are women not because of the colour of their skin.

This is the divide, the radical separateness of the black experience, that many white people have trouble acknowledging. Support for taking the knee recognises this difference and is the basis for other alliances and finding of common ground.

I support Gareth Southgate and applaud his empathy in backing his players. I also do care what that redshite said on taking the knee because we really should give a fuck and care.

Martin Mason
200 Posted 10/06/2021 at 16:19:36
Just a couple of interesting points. Of 6258 murders of black people in the USA, 6000 were by other black people and only 258 (4%) by policemen. Black people in America commit 10 times more violent crime than white people. Please, let's have some balance in the race debate. Privileged coloured footballers don't have careers blighted by racism, they get a few rude twitter posts but so do many white people. Try having ginger hair if you want to see prejudice even though it is well known that ginger haired people are far more intelligent and better looking than the poor people who aren't blessed with it. As many of the smarter black football commentators are now saying, enough is enough. Football has been hi-jacked.
There is racism in the UK but it is nowhere near as bad as it is being painted by the woke. It is nowhere as bad as it was 50 years ago. In many cases now we are seeing reverse racism and nobody can be racist against my tribe.
Dale Self
201 Posted 10/06/2021 at 17:09:31
Look Martin and Kevin P above, we can have balance and do in my opinion. However, a constant dismissal of any gesture (you did not suggest another, Kevin) and use of phrases like 'Privileged coloured" leaves many to just get on with the banter. We've all got some material to work on but some lines are better than others. Please refrain from usage of "it is well known" with something you wish to benchmark the conversation on. Each assumption of anyone's buildup to a conclusion is fair game even if it is supposed common knowledge. These are touchy topics so be prepared to defend what you write.
Kevin Prytherch
202 Posted 10/06/2021 at 17:44:43
Kev Jones 199

When a working class white person is disadvantaged it is due to other factors, but when an ethnic minority person is disadvantaged for the same reasons (economic oppression etc) it is automatically due to the colour of their skin? Why is an ethnic minority person, living in poverty due the the economic circumstances of the area and their parents inability to access better paid employment any different to a white person living with the same conditions?

Also, the girls in Rochdale were targeted due to the colour of their skin. They were viewed as “white slags” by the Asian gangs who systematically raped them. How do you think the people of Rochdale, who have lived with these abhorrent crimes against their community, feel if the Rochdale football team takes a knee in support of Black Lives Matter? I would guess that they would feel completely alienated and forgotten about - and therefore the movement would instantly create a divide.

As Martin says, this country has made massive strides and is much more tolerant than the USA, we should promote that rather than making gestures that evidently divide opinions.

Thomas Richards
203 Posted 10/06/2021 at 18:32:26
The generalisation of race issues is systemic of the problem.
No different on TW to the situation world wide.
Some really eye opening stuff been posted on this particular thread.
Underlying racism contained in some posters offerings, some who don't even realise the content of thier statements.
Robert Bresnan
204 Posted 10/06/2021 at 18:45:28
Kevin P - 202

Taking the knee is only a divisive gesture in that it divides those of us who are racist from those of us who are not racist.

The gesture itself is incredibly low impact and peaceful. It's literally a single minute of time where people make a gesture to draw attention to the issue of racism. That's it. One minute, no shouting, certainly no violence, and then it's move on to the game.

There seem to be a few on here who oppose the gesture and disavow any accusations of racism. Well, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not racist, would you not just look at the context of all the racism that has even existed in the world, and say to yourself "yeah, fair enough, all these people are saying racism is still an issue and they want to take a minute of my time to point that out, I'll just let it play out without complaining"?

What would you lose by that?

I'm not familiar with the Rochdale incident, but your logic is fairly twisted: Supporting BLM means you support the rape of white women by Asian gangs? I'm genuinely not being provocative here, but do you really think that people who support BLM (or let's call it anti-racism as people can't agree on here as to what BLM) are all in favour of white women getting raped as a hate crime (or for any reason, obviously, but just being specific to the issue of race here)? Because that's what you've implied.

The fact that racism is not as bad as it was is not really an issue to stop making progress. By 1920 we had made great strides in medical science. Why didn't we just stop then?

For the record, I think it's likely that the gesture has or will become devoid of its meaning as a symbol, and that might be a reason to stop doing it. But it's not up to me to decide that, and I'm certainly happy for it to made until that consensus is reached.

Danny O’Neill
205 Posted 10/06/2021 at 18:47:12
I thought long and hard about commenting here. I'll keep it short.

I've been to some incredibly intolerant places and seen some pretty bad treatment of people and property. We are simply not that type of society. Believe me.

The UK is a very tolerant and diverse society. We accept people from different backgrounds. Liverpool as a city is an example of that. Perfect? Of course not. But I don't feel we need to make such a big issue out of something that isn't necessarily so.

I coached a Hayes & Yeading team in West London from under 11s through to 18s. English, Irish, West African, British Asian. Afghan. No issues whatsoever. Great bunch of lads and great team spirit amongst them.

Maybe the advent of social media has reignited the problem.

There is no place for racism. Maybe the broader issue here is trolls abusing people on social media.

I said I'd keep it short. It's me. I'm sorry.

Terry White
206 Posted 10/06/2021 at 18:55:40
What does "the woke" mean? I am an old grammar school boy and I have no idea what these words mean. Do they appear in this context in the OED?
Thomas Richards
207 Posted 10/06/2021 at 18:59:30
Danny,

Its rampant and its getting worse not better.

https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/hate-crime-linked-to-race-is-on-the-rise-data-by-victim-support-reveals/.

Our city is better than most I agree.
Nonetheless it is widespread. The Brexit vote was won on the back of working class cities and towns being swayed by the propaganda of "they are taking your hospital appointments, they are stealing your jobs", etc etc.

Sadly racism is as bad as it ever was, just not so much in your face.

Lev Vellene
208 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:05:50
Well, there is a minute, or two/three, of silence to honor/remember someone, now and then. Usually not, so why worry if our players take even less time to try to signal something that the people they really target would snigger about? Well, the majority will notice, and keep that in mind!
Brian Williams
209 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:06:23

Danny,

Its rampant and its getting worse not better.

https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/hate-crime-linked-to-race-is-on-the-rise-data-by-victim-support-reveals/.

Our city is better than most I agree.
Nonetheless it is widespread. The Brexit vote was won on the back of working class cities and towns being swayed by the propaganda of "they are taking your hospital appointments, they are stealing your jobs", etc etc.

Thomas that's just your opinion and nothing more. To use that to back up your argument basically loses you credibility, IMO.
Stick to irrefutable facts if you're going to make sweeping statements like that.

Danny O’Neill
210 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:09:14
Terry, I had to ask the same question a few weeks ago, so don't feel old!!

I believe it refers to our current society who are outraged and offended by the slightest thing.

When my son explained it, rightly or wrongly (and putting a light hearted spin on this) my initial reply was "so it's like everyone have become kopites"?

He's a massive Evertonian but he just shook his head at me.

Dale Self
211 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:15:50
Not getting it at all there Danny. But do feel free to make light of it.
Thomas Richards
212 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:17:56
Brian,

It is a national study I posted a link to.
Not JUST my opinion.
What,in your opinion, was refutable?

Danny O’Neill
213 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:27:32
That was in reference to the question as to what "Woke" meant Dale.

I'm not putting light on the subject of racism. I've worked and do work in very diverse environments and as I said, I've seen first hand what intolerance can do in places where it has resulted in destruction and human loss.

Brian Williams
214 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:27:33
Thomas, the national study referred to why people voted for Brexit?

I may have inadvertently caused a bit of confusion as to what I was referring to as I only meant to highlight part of the post!

Thats what you get for trying to post using your phone but no glasses.

Anthony A Hughes
215 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:28:20
Racism works both ways both my wife and myself have long term black friends and some of the racist rubbish they have commented on regarding white people is pretty poor
Thomas Richards
216 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:35:34
It does Anthony.
Equally abhorrent.

Brian, fair comment.
That is my take on it, not the national study.
The national study is accurate though.

Brian Williams
217 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:39:17
Fair do's Thomas but throwing the Brexit "opinion" in there does weaken your point as it is pure conjecture.
I voted leave but it had absolutely nothing to do with "them" stealing our jobs.
I'd have been glad of someone stealing mine I fucking hated it.
Dale Self
218 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:45:09
Danny, I guess I'm a little hesitant to separate the label of a movement from what the movement addresses with regard to labels and such. Making light of "woke" or some offered definition is making light of racism from one side's view of the subject.

I do not want to get teachy and pedantic about it, everyone gets to talk how they want to talk. However, when the language minimizes the concerns of the other side so casually don't expect a request for clarity. The chosen way of talking about something reveals plenty.

Kevin Prytherch
219 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:48:06
Robert 204 - your first paragraph accuses everyone that doesn’t support taking the knee of being racist.

Sorry, but the rest of your post pales into insignificance after that ridiculous paragraph.

In no way did I say that supporting BLM supports rape, I pointed out that other abhorrent crimes in society are not deemed worthy of as much support as black people, and that is not fair on the victims of those crimes who are not deemed worthy of as much support.

Thomas Richards
220 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:48:48
Brian, 👍

I voted remain, each to thier own.
Tell me to mind my own business if I am out of order, but what was your reason for voting to leave?

John Keating
221 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:53:44
Thomas
taking hospital appointments and jobs?
That your opinion or fact?
Colin Glassar
222 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:54:07
“Coloured footballers” Martin @200? Really? You still refer to people like they are fucking smarties? Do you touch their skins to see how it feels? My god mate, Enoch would’ve been proud of you. Do you have loads of coloured and half-caste friends as well? Do you go down to the local reggae club to show your “solidarity”?

You see Martin, racists can never really hide their racism, it always comes out with a gesture or a slip of the tongue or a finger mistake etc.. but it’s always there, latent, hiding, just waiting to pounce at the first opportunity.

We’ve been able to brush overt racism under the carpet but it’s still there and always will be despite the claims of the racists.

Danny O’Neill
223 Posted 10/06/2021 at 19:56:37
I knew I shouldn't have got involved.

Dale, I was just trying to explain my mybunderstainf of the term "woke".

I'll be honest, I don't really understand it.

Racism; different issue. Someone asked what woke meant.

Dale Self
224 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:02:11
No Danny, you're reading past my point. Woke is defined by what racism is, not a different issue.

Just please try to understand my sensitivity that was displayed in my entries. I don't need to draw any conclusions over a post or two.

Thomas Richards
225 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:04:01
Opinion John.
Danny O’Neill
226 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:07:13
Hey Dale, if I've offended I apologise. Genuinely. I'm not an offensive person.

I don't really understand the term woke. I'm too old, so just gave my understanding based on a question I asked someone.

Happy you educate me.

But I maintain, the UK is a largely tolerant society. It can get better but it is tolerant.

Sorry Dale, I didn't mean to offend.

Terry White
227 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:08:23
I wondered how long it would take me to correct Thomas on his spelling. Once too often apparently. The common English word that you misspell as 'thier" is correctly spelled "their". So there.
Mike Gaynes
228 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:08:47
Martin #200, your "interesting points" are lies.

Please readjust your hood so you can read better.

Will Mabon
229 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:09:43
So, in the just over 12 month period containing lockdowns, a 73% rise in race & nationality hate crimes, and a 67% rise in all hate crime categories.

Amongst everything else going on in life, an out-of-the-blue sudden massive rise by more than two thirds, across the board of "Hate" categories, just like that. Sure!

That by the way, is based on the figures given by that independent charity alone, it is not a "National study" in the generally perceived sense of the concept.

Thomas Richards
230 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:15:38
Falsified figures Will?

Apologies Terry, i am blaming the auto spelling on the ipad

Terry White
231 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:20:09
Danny (#210), thank you for your efforts but I am none the wiser. And I am old. My grammar school days are way behind me. I still live in my own world where grammar and spelling were important things. I now cringe at the modern-day use, or non-use, of correct grammar and acceptance of incorrect spelling.

My sentiments will not change the world, I know.

Anthony A Hughes
232 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:21:03
Have we got a manager yet? Not arsed what colour, creed, sexual orientation, just someone who can turn us into winners
Brian Williams
233 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:22:29
Thomas#220.
Well you DID open that door?

"Mind your own business." 🤣
Seriously it's not something I can put across, or be arsed putting across on TW. Face to face at one of the get togethers maybe, over a Pimms. 😉

Dale Self
234 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:23:32
Thanks for that Danny and let me apologize for any discomfort there. I take you at your word and just want you to understand where I'm coming from on that. I am not interested in regulating anyone's expressions but sometimes a phrase or criticism thereof requires a bit of work when a misunderstanding or worse becomes obvious.

Thomas Richards
235 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:23:57
Pimms?

All good Brian, I get it now 😁😁

Danny O’Neill
236 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:29:53
Colin (222), good shout. Bigots remain. No hiding from that. But we have moved on massively as a society from when I was a kid. Can we do more? Of course; you always can. We should be self critical but we are not as bad as other countries.

The online factor doesn't reflect day to day interaction. I'm in West London; culturally diverse and brilliant mix.

I've genuinely never treated people anything other than people regardless of background. It goes back to my own roots. We're all people. True equality just looks at the person and their ability, or personalty, nothing else. That's all I've ever done. In work and on the football pitch, in life.

Think I'll leave this one now as I need to get back to fretting and overthinking who the next Manager is going to be.

I have no control over it. But it has control over my sleep patterns. I see another sleepless night on the cards and concerned dogs. They do worry about Everton.

Peter Warren
237 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:36:45
I have an opinion but am white privileged and rarely witnessed racism. I think next generation (my kids are 11,10 and 6) are really stopping to see colour. They honestly have no clue / it’s great - they also have no clue about gay or straight.

I think racism exists more in my generation in terms of foreigners as opposed to colour of skin. I may be wrong but discrimination I find in uk is more on discrepancy on poor.

In terms of booing, I’m sure some is ignorance, some for other reasons, some for racism but I do not think it’s clear cut and a lot of it, I genuinely think people are just fed up being told what to support and what not and how to support and how not.

Danny O’Neill
238 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:38:06
Never apologise (Queen's spelling) Dale. We come on here to discuss Everton and football. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we'll eventually agree too agree or agree to disagree. But we're all Evertonians. Always great to talk to you and everyone else here.
Dale Self
239 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:42:04
With that Danny! I'm grateful for your latitude and yes as long as we can remind ourselves that we are an Everton family we'll make out okay. Even with retards that cannot spell properly (me).
Dave Abrahams
240 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:43:16
Terry (231) I still write letters, now and again, I wouldn’t be surprised if you do too, I think people who do, take a lot more time and care in doing so, letters take longer to write than Emails, texts etc and the pen is not only mightier than the sword it is also much better than Emails, texts etc, it is also much better to receive a letter than any other correspondence, especially if there is good news in the envelope. Please let me have made no mistakes with this post. Terry carry on correcting any silly and careless mistakes on ToffeeWeb, the word checker on ToffeeWeb definitely never went to a grammar school like you and I, see what I did there Terry. You and I, good eh!!
Thomas Richards
241 Posted 10/06/2021 at 20:54:58
Peter Warren

I have an opinion but am white privileged and rarely witnessed racism. I think next generation (my kids are 11,10 and 6) are really stopping to see colour. They honestly have no clue / it’s great - they also have no clue about gay or straight.

Undoubtedly due to their upbringing Peter.
Long may that continue.
The key to an equal society is in the education of youth.

Robert Bresnan
242 Posted 10/06/2021 at 21:13:48
@ Kevin P 219

Okay for the sake of not arguing, let's just strike out my first paragraph.

Will you engage with the point I made after that? (I am interested in having a genuine back and forth, so hopefully you will).

To wit, taking the knee is a really low impact gesture. It literally lasts a minute and involves no violence. It doesn't even involve sound.

Given that and how big a problem racism has been, would you not say "okay, I'll just go with it, as I'd prefer we do too much than too little"?

Genuine question.

Thomas Richards
243 Posted 10/06/2021 at 21:25:28
Robert 204.

"There seem to be a few on here who oppose the gesture and disavow any accusations of racism."

I am one of the few.

The "gesture" (and that is all it is) has done nothing to improve the abhorrence of racism.
I would suggest, after the initial impact, it has had the opposite affect.

Kevin Prytherch
244 Posted 10/06/2021 at 23:20:14
Robert 242 - fair enough.

I’ll give you an analogy with the Black Lives Matter movement.

Years ago, David Attenborough put a load of red ants and a load of black ants in a jar. Nothing happened. He then shook the jar vigorously and all the red ants and black ants started attacking each other as they both thought the other was responsible for shaking the jar.

Taking the knee and Black Lives Matter is akin to shaking the jar. It is a gesture that divides. The fact that there are so many posts is tested at to that fact. If we had a gesture, such as Scotland are doing in standing around the centre circle, that is. I affiliated with Black Lives Matter then the jar will not be shaken and we can all work together to stamp out racism.

Will 229 - Interesting statistics. Do they prove that hate crimes rose during lockdown, or do they prove the the BLM movement have had the complete opposite effect of what it was intended? Probably a combination of both

Si Cooper
245 Posted 10/06/2021 at 23:38:24
Kevin (182),

That is an embarrassing reply. Albert's post at 178 was well after you posted “... more than any other life” as if it automatically follows “Black Lives Matter”, and his post does nothing more than call for a levelling up across society.

I think it is also important to see that taking the knee is about so much more than the murder of George Floyd, so I think people should go beyond that single event if they want to understand the groundswell of support that the footballers are simply adding their ‘voice' to.

Andrea Jacobs
246 Posted 10/06/2021 at 23:54:36
The ultimate signifier of the racist is the person that denies that it is even a problem. They do not recognise it as being any part of their life, so feel the issue is overblown.

The growing power of racism in society, which has always been here, yes, in some ways more overt and violent in the past, but nowadays somewhat more covert and insidious, is being fuelled by this perverse denial that it even exists in this country.
Si Cooper
247 Posted 10/06/2021 at 00:18:15
Kevin (244), are you claiming that Attenborough story is true? Ants who realise they are in a jar and that the jar is being shaken, but can't work out that the stranger ants in their midst can't possibly be shaking the jar???

That analogy is poor because you assume the ants realise the jar is being shaken, and that those ants would otherwise always be passive with each other. Wrong on both counts. The ants feel ‘themselves' being shaken and react to an ‘attack' by attacking anything they don't recognise as ‘their kind' (sounds a bit like racism, actually). Red ants raid black ant nests for young which then grow up to be a ‘slave' population; red and black ants will fight over resources such as territory. Mind you, they will be equally as combative against ants of the same species but from different colonies.

Your analogy suggests that morons look at footballers taking the knee and feel under attack, making them lash out at individuals who don't fall within their concept of ‘my kind'. That sounds very much like (latent) racism and those people will feel threatened by ‘others' no matter what. I'm not in favour of binning a legitimate attempt to raise awareness just to pacify them.

Robert Bresnan
248 Posted 11/06/2021 at 01:19:35
Thomas #243

That's actually fair enough and I agree that there's probably a debate to be had as to whether the gesture is effective any more.

(I also agree that it is just a gesture and doesn't magically erase racism.)

However, your point that it's just not effective against racism is not the point of view of some of the others on here who oppose it. Theirs is that we shouldn't be protesting racism at all, that racism was worse in the 70s, that there are other injustices out there so why let racism hog the limelight, etc.

And now it's time for me to set my keyboard aside and rest.

Martin Mason
249 Posted 11/06/2021 at 12:05:31
Robert,

I've seen no posts on here that have rubbished taking the knee because they believe that we shouldn't protest against racism rather than the gesture itself being stupid. Stand against racism, kneel for no man – even when it's virtue signalling. Do something – don't make gestures.

Kev Jones
250 Posted 11/06/2021 at 12:33:11
Kevin Prytherch#202

I expect the people of Rochdale would have consulted the 2020 home office report that concluded that most sexual exploitation gangs were organized by white men under 30. They might also agree with Nazir Afzal who prosecuted the Rochdale gangs and concluded that racial stereotyping linked to this crime is a false distraction that further inflames divisive racist attitudes.

The could look at the research by Bradley and Cockburn which showed that although the majority of women sexually exploited by gangs are white, that women from Afro Caribbean and Bangladeshi minorities were also exploited. As the population in the area involved was mainly white, ethnic minority women were in fact over represented as victims of the crime. They conclude that this ‘’challenges the view that white girls are sought out by offenders, suggesting instead that convenience and accessibility may be the prime drivers for those looking for new victims." Nazir concluded that the crime is related not to race but to the widespread sexual violence suffered by women of all communities.

The good people of Rochdale, considering these points and taking into account the small number of men from ethnic minorities being involved in sexual gangs, might remember that nationally black people and ethnic minorities do suffer disadvantage and discrimination from racism that white people do not suffer. In a gesture of understanding and empathy that might reach across the racist divide which does nothing to help the women and girls who are victims of sexual crime, they might then offer their support for the peaceful gesture of taking the knee.

And if the people of Rochdale had not taken the broader view into account then they really would have to ask themselves were they acting of out of their racist prejudices.

Kevin Molloy
251 Posted 11/06/2021 at 13:36:05
Kev
the report you refer to is deeply flawed, so I hope 'the good people of Rochdale' make a choice for themselves as to who they think is to blame for the industrial gang rape over decades of their vulnerable children. I suspect they already have.
Thomas Richards
252 Posted 11/06/2021 at 14:32:28
The danger is ALL muslim men in Rochdale are labelled the same by targetted claims.
Kevin Molloy
253 Posted 11/06/2021 at 14:40:24
Thomas yes agreed. It's not an easy conversation to highlight an issue which is a problem within a particular community, very difficult in fact. But what we should equally not do in my view is say, 'nothing to see here, move on'. Because people aren't stupid, and resentment will build.
Pete Clarke
254 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:15:30

Most of us grew up with a bit of racism or bigotry being thrown about as general banter and it is shameful along with lots of other shit that happens when your young.
Alot of kids today will grow up with a different mindset and will have very little thoughts as to the color of skin or different accents of other people.
I have a special memory of being at a game in Brazil between Palmeiras and Corinthians. I was with a group of Brazilian lads who worked in the factory we were doing a job at.
They were from Japanese, Portuguese, Italian and multiple African backgrounds. The color of the faces were all shades, all very happy, they were all good friends and all very much Patriotic Brazilian. Lots of banter going on there that would be sensitive today but nothing too serious.
This is the way I see the future and especially so here in Australia where there is a good mix taking place in general. There is constant change happening.
Back to the point of players taking the knee. I personally think it’s a load of crap and the point has been lost. The players and officials feel forced to follow suit in the same way we are all being told what we can and can’t think or say by some ever righteous people in society.
Piers Morgan has a point. The world had gone nuts.

Michael Lynch
255 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:28:01
I'll be really interested to know what the exit strategy is for 'taking the knee'. At what point will players stop doing it? When racism ends? When the new season starts? Never?

It seems to me that it has to be a permanent feature of the game in England, unless someone can come up with a workaround fudge that allows players to stop doing it without looking like they've caved in.

I will call out racism wherever I see it, on line or in person. But I haven't witnessed open racism in a premier league ground in years. It seems the racism in the game is almost entirely on line, and - some reports have indicated - in many cases, from overseas.

Nobody booed Kick It Out, so I'm not sure how fans in the ground have suddenly become racist, which seems to be the suggestion about those who are booing taking the knee.

Around 40% of English fans polled recently were against taking the knee. More in Scotland. I'd be surprised if nearly half the fans in this country are racist. If they are, it must be fucking painful for them watching the game, such is its ethnic diversity these days.

People are always saying that the authorities should listen to the fans. Perhaps a compromise is needed, something all fans can get behind. But this is becoming a divisive issue, which is the exact opposite of what it needs to be.

Kevin Prytherch
256 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:31:00
Kev Jones, tell that to the victims of Rochdale, Rotherham, Huddersfield, Oxford and Telford.

Also, from the report you quote, which was heavily criticised as being ‘whitewashed’:

In the remaining 1,200 cases, ethnicity data was unknown for 38% of them. Where data was available 30% of offenders were White, while 28% were Asian.

Now compare this to the ethnic makeup of the UK in the 2011 census:
86% white, 7.5% Asian.

Thomas - that is a real issue. I live down the road from Rochdale and, when my daughters are old enough, I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?

Si - 247
Look at it this way.
You want racism eradicated
I want racism eradicated
The thing that makes us argue is the kneeling gestures and Black Lives Matter. That is the ‘shaking the glass’ analogy because, without that, we would work together to eradicate racism.

Thomas Richards
257 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:39:47
Kevin,

"But what we should equally not do in my view is say, 'nothing to see here, move on"

That wasnt said Kevin.
There were some substantial prison sentences handed out and rightly so.
Should have been longer imo.


Kevin 256,

" I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?"

It is a racist statement.
If you determine anyones actions or possible actions by the colour of thier skin it is obvious.

Kevin Molloy
258 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:48:08
Thomas
Kev Jones was effectively saying that to refer to Muslim grooming gangs was wrong, because according to that report, this activity was in fact being caused more by white males under 30 than Muslims of the same age.
Kevin Molloy
259 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:52:14
Thomas 257
I would imagine Kevin would not have the same concerns about Hindu groups of young men, who are the same race often as the men who have formed some of these grooming gangs, so it would seem the concern is not about race, more about attitudes and practices existing within a culture.
Andrea Jacobs
260 Posted 11/06/2021 at 15:52:25
If you want the innocuous five second gesture of talking the knee to stop, and you choose to boo it, you are a defensive child who is angry and confused because you think you're being called a racist.

You cannot even allow one simple meaningless act that unsettles and destabilises your world view for a mere five seconds, that's how insecure and privileged you are.

I agree that the knee is now causing more trouble than it's worth., and is a cosy co-opted corporate gesture, but the real reason it's whipping up so much aggro is that we live in a country where about half the grown adults are angry, insidious racists, some blatant and proud, but many who will not even acknowledge this fact about themselves.
Len Hawkins
261 Posted 11/06/2021 at 16:05:17
Just as an aside to the racism discussion I moved into my first house in 1972 and soon after we had it painted dark brown and magnolia. I put the leftover paint in a cupboard in the shed and it was there for years until one day I cleaned out the accumulated rubbish and there was this tin of, I'm almost certain it was Dulux, NI**ER Brown.
I know it is now a hanging offence to say the word but it was common place then and I wondered if any Afro Caribbeans bought the same paint.
Dan Nulty
262 Posted 11/06/2021 at 16:30:41
Sorry Kevin 256, unfortunately what you have said is racist. You are casting judgements and making assumptions about the character of a group of people because of the colour of their skin.

What you should be doing is warning your daughter about all groups of men, not just the Asian ones. Dangers around every corner and whilst according to the statistics a larger percentage of our Asian community may be more likely to be caught breaking the law, overall, statistically your daughters are more likely to suffer at the hands of white men. Sad but true.

I know it is tricky and I don't believe you to be inherently racist, what you have said would be classed as conscious bias. I genuinely would recommend diversity and unconscious bias training of some description if you can get on it. I find myself slipping up from time to time even now but at least I recognise it for what it is. It doesn't make me racist but shows that I do not to consider what I am saying before I open my mouth.

Thomas Richards
263 Posted 11/06/2021 at 16:33:04
Kevin 259

"so it would seem the concern is not about race, more about attitudes and practices existing within a culture"

Tiny proportion of wrongdoers sees all Pakistani and Bangladesh men fall into that category?

Dale Self
264 Posted 11/06/2021 at 16:48:07
"Shaking the glass" is another version of making the reaction to a problem the perceived problem. No, the problem is the problem. Didn't want to pile on here since you have enough to respond to but really man, that analogy does not adequately characterize the sequence that got us to this point. Carry on.
Steve Brown
265 Posted 11/06/2021 at 17:42:11
Really looking forward to the England team taking the knee, as it is becoming increasingly impactful and relevant as the protests against it increase.

Also, my interest in Jordan Henderson has increased since I found that he is a marxist. That was news to me and might be to Jordan.

Brian Williams
266 Posted 11/06/2021 at 17:50:13
Steve#265.
You mean to say there's some football afoot?
Really?
Steve Brown
267 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:06:18
Yes, Brian, I thought these young players were expressing their democratic right to self expression for one minute before a football game to show their opposition to racism, but apparently they are formenting a global black marxist revolution.

Just shows you never know.

Tom Bowers
268 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:20:00
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and religious freedom unless of course you live in North Korea, China or Russia.

Certainly the fight against racism especially in countries where there exists extremists group following doctrines of madmen from history who flourish even more today because of the darkweb must be continually protested against by decent people.

However whilst taking the knee was the start of an anti-racist protest in the US against bigotted police injustice I feel it is also the right of anyone to choose not to take the knee without criticism.

Injustice throughout the World and indeed history is felt by all people in some form or other and we have to acknowledge that ''all lives matter'' but as long as there are disfunctional political leaders many things won't change much

Steve Brown
269 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:20:53
And our final entries for most memorable post of the day are:

1) when my daughters are old enough, I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?

2) Privileged coloured footballers don't have careers blighted by racism

3) That's what Marxists do, they cause blue murder, with the idea of causing a revolution.

Give em enough rope to hang themselves.

Andrew Ellams
270 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:29:04
I do have to chuckle at the idea of multi millionaires in their 20s through a sport that has become a Global poster boy for capitalist greed are all secretly using it to spark a Marxist revolution.

Some of these footballers aren't as daft as we think.

Thomas Richards
271 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:34:42
Three good examples of the problem Steve.

1,He will be fine if he keeps his daughters restricted to mixing with white people.
They don't get involved in sex crime.

2,They don't.
They do however have LIVES blighted by racism.

Kevin Prytherch
272 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:52:02
Thomas - if you lived less than 5 miles from a known ring of child sex grooming gangs that happened to be of Asian descent, many of which never got caught or prosecuted and many of which still live in the area, and one of your daughters came home one night and said that she’d been drinking with a gang of Asian men…

Would you
a) be concerned knowing that there have been issues in the past?
b) dismiss it for fear of sounding racist?

Steve - footballers are allowed to express their democratic right to self expression, but if someone uses their democratic right to self expression to oppose it then they are in the wrong? Explain what that isn’t completely hypocritical.

Kevin Prytherch
273 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:55:27
Dan 262

Consider the scenario…
There is a population of blue and green people (keeping it neutral). 15 murders are committed, 10 by blue people and 5 by green people. Therefore you are more likely to be murdered by a blue person?

However, there are a thousand blue people and only 20 green people in the population. Therefore only 1% of blue people are murderers whilst 25% of green people are.

Are you statistically more likely to be murdered by a blue or green person? Which colour person would you be more concerned with?

Kevin Prytherch
274 Posted 11/06/2021 at 18:59:57
Dan 262 - as for recommending unconscious bias training. You my friend are part of a problem with society. There is a known issue amongst a certain demographic of people and, rather than be concerned with the known demographic, you would rather try and avoid being labelled as prejudice against that demographic than actually being concerned with the issue.

If a gang of ginger blokes committed these crimes I would expect people to be cautious of me. I wouldn’t cry for them to have training that has been consistently proven to be both worthless and counter productive.

Thomas Richards
275 Posted 11/06/2021 at 19:24:30
Kevin P.

Hope you take this in the spirit intended.

You have a problem.
Your pre conceived summation of a whole race of people will, if it hasn't already, poison your mind.

Jay Woods [LAT]
276 Posted 11/06/2021 at 19:46:40
My wife is Russian (making our kids half Russian, half British) but she knows I have a very low view of Russians in general, despite notable exceptions.

Experience has taught me that, in the absence of contrary data bespoke to any unknown Russian I encounter, the safest thing for me to do is to make a class judgement based on the stereotype. For example, I accidentally bumped my car wing mirror into a Russian guy's here in Riga not that long ago, so I did the British thing and smiled, apologised, offered to straighten it up, etc., only to be told, in unambiguous terms, to foxtrot oscar. That was a salient reminder to me that - generally speaking - Russians do not think like me, or share my Anglo social graces and I should have known better, but had dropped my guard and reverted into the "nice guy" reaction most Brits would have.

They have an exaggerated machismo to compensate for being mama's boys, my wife once suggested, offering a class judgement of her own, on her own tribe. I mentioned this to a Chinese lady I knew back home and she said this: "Chinese men are the same: mama's boys".

Meanwhile, all I hear every day on the Anglo media is that I am somehow privileged for being white and am therefore inherently evil and racist. Which reveals two things:

1. Non-Anglos feel at total liberty to speak whatever Marxist drivel they like about Anglos, safe from being called racist or bigoted because, apparently, only Anglos can be guilty of that.
2. Our Anglo establishment permits and positively encourages this because it is utterly lost to crypto communism... as predicted by the KGB defectors back in the day, like Anatoliy Golytsin.

Anyway, I think the main point here is this: people have the fundamental right, from the light of nature, to make class judgements about people from other cultures until such times as any given individual proves themselves the exception to the stereotype. Of course, even saying something as rational as that immediately gets me branded a Nazi by some, but that only highlights one of the grand maxims of our age: to be a leftist, one must deny reality at every turn.

David Pearl
277 Posted 11/06/2021 at 19:53:39
Aah those cuddly Russians that don't smile, hate to say hello, will walk straight at you and ruin your holiday? Although Kanchelskis was a good one so l don't want to typecast
Thomas Richards
278 Posted 11/06/2021 at 19:59:40
Jay 276.

Mr Farage has a spot on the top table waiting for you.

Dale Self
279 Posted 11/06/2021 at 20:08:05
Jay, you're ability to translate the random and mundane into a crescendo of confirmation for your biases is stunning. That people will make judgements from insecure or fearful places is expected when they lack experience. That misunderstandings will happen as people try to transition to more open relations with ones they've had very little exposure to is also expected. To dig in and justify simplified and often backward characterizations of others is something I hope we are getting past.

Andy Crooks
280 Posted 11/06/2021 at 20:18:13
I would suggest that Jay is being satirical.. surely?
Kieran Kinsella
281 Posted 11/06/2021 at 20:21:57
Jay Woods

Aside from your cultural generalizations, with your vaccine conspiracy theories and Anglo Saxon bias, have you ever considered these Russians aren’t hostile by nature, they’re just hostile because you are you.

Kevin Pryterch

You’ve posted on race matters on here in the past. My interpretation is that you’re the racist and that’s an observation not an insult

Dan Nulty
282 Posted 11/06/2021 at 20:24:36
Sorry Kevin, I didn't say I liked, enjoyed or agreed with it. I just said that what you have said demonstrates what is known as conscious bias in today's society. Particularly employment.

Up to you how you want to deal with it, I still fall foul of it now and then.

Jay, I think a lot of the venom with which white people respond to being accused of white privilege is because we associate the term privilege with aristocracy and people with lots of money. The privilege is actually that being Anglo and white we don't have to suffer from racism, conscious or unconscious bias in order to get on in life and compete for jobs etc. As white and Anglo, most of us can't empathise with that as we have never been in that position. We don't have to like it, sometimes I don't, but I understand it.

Andrew Ellams
283 Posted 11/06/2021 at 20:26:22
Jay, what a ridiculous pile of xenophobic bullshit.

Still based on your own theory I can consider you a racist who is crying out desperately for attention until you can prove me otherwise.

David Pearl
284 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:09:38
And l thought this was an Evertonian meeting place and forum for people from throughout the galaxy.
Colin Glassar
285 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:20:26
Jay, you are in the right place (Latvia) to spout your fascist claptrap. The Baltic states were, and still are, a hotbed of right wing extremists and nazi sympathisers. Keep going, Lord Haw Haw.
Kieran Kinsella
286 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:23:39
Colin

Didn’t Lord Haw Haw change his name to Richard Dodd and go to work as a Kenwright propagandist on ToffeeWeb?

Mike Gaynes
287 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:38:34
Andy #280, no, based on years of occasional postings here, he means every word.

Colin #285, the Latvians were among the most eager Nazi collaborators in WWII. 90% of Latvian Jews were killed under the Nazis, and about a third of those were actually slaughtered by the Latvians themselves, specifically a militia called Arajs Kommando. The attitude thrives today -- Riga still holds a large annual parade to honor the veterans and memory of the Latvian Legion, two Nazi SS regiments. It's a proud tradition.

Kieran Kinsella
288 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:43:51
Mike/Colin

What you say is true. But, we don’t want to follow Jay’s lead and cast aspersions on all Latvians. I had dealings with a center for deaf adults in Latvia about 20 years ago. Lovely good hearted folks. Plenty of fascists there no doubt, but some good folk also.

Andy Crooks
289 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:45:06
Kieran, Colin and others, poster 276 revels in this. Zealots need martyrdom. Your response with any kind of logic merely confirms the poster's notion that he, probably alone, sees the real picture.
There are some posters on here with whom I disagree but who offer arguments that can make one look at their point. Not this one.
I can only imagine how Jay Wood (Brazil) feels. One letter!!!
Colin Glassar
290 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:46:11
Sadly Mike, my grandparents family knew all too well these Baltic “patriots” and their collaboration with their German masters.
Kieran Kinsella
291 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:48:53
Andy

Lol I can’t imagine how I’d feel if there was a right wing extremist named Kieran Kinsellas.

Kevin Prytherch
292 Posted 11/06/2021 at 21:50:39
Kieron 281 - you’re right that I have posted on racial matters in the past. I have frequently argued that every life should matter and that is one of the reasons I disagree with the BLM movement. I have highlighted groups of people who do not get publicity despite being on the receiving end of equal, if not worse, injustice. If that makes me a racist in your eyes then so be it.

Thomas 275 - I notice that, despite calling me out for being cautious of my daughters safety with a particular demographic group in the face of horrendous atrocities, you then fail to answer the question as to what you would do in the same situation. Is that because you know the answer would be the same as what I would do?

I would rather have a problem being cautious of a particular demographic than see my daughters be raped and impregnated against their will. Unfortunately, in this instance, I will also naturally be cautious of those who don’t deserve it. If these crimes were committed by another demographic, mine included, I would be naturally cautious about that. If you are a father then I would hope you would understand that.

Thomas Richards
293 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:01:52
"Thomas 275 - I notice that, despite calling me out for being cautious of my daughters safety with a particular demographic group in the face of horrendous atrocities, you then fail to answer the question as to what you would do in the same situation. Is that because you know the answer would be the same as what I would do"

No Kevin, I would be happy my daughter was mixing with a diverse group of friends. Showing a propensity to engage with other cultures without pre conceived mind set that if your an Asian you are dangerous.

Kieran Kinsella
294 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:11:24
Kevin

From my experience if you stick your head above the bunker you’ll find that people are much of a muchness. You get good folks and wankers in every country regardless of skin color, ethnicity or religion. If you broaden your horizons mate, you’ll realize the one commonality is that we are all human.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

295 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:27:45
I wondered why I was experiencing feelings of déjà vu reading this thread.

Back in December when - very briefly - supporters were allowed back into stadiums, Milwall fans caused an uproar when they booed their players for taking the knee.

John Burns penned the following article asking the very question repeated in this thread. Should taking the knee continue?

The Booing of the Knee

It is fascinating to read back and see the names and arguments being made then and comparing them to their entries now.

My personal position remains unchanged. The same names who in December failed to convince me to convert to their views then have not offered anything new now.

And for those claiming taking the knee has not made a smidgen of difference or changed racist attitudes, you don't know that. The very fact that - yet again - an entire thread has become dedicated to the subject and is still drawing comments 5 days on is surely evidence that it HAS had an impact.

Because without that repeated act before hundreds of games across an entire season, this exchange simply doesn't happen.

I'll take that as a 'win' for the taking of the knee.

Small steps, 'n all that.

Mike Gaynes
296 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:28:05
Colin #290, as something of an amateur historian I'd very much like to hear that account. When we finally sit down for a beer someday, let's make sure that's on our subject list. (After we reminisce about Iwobi's 2022 FA Cup winner, of course.)

Jay #295, what the players say now about taking the knee is exactly what the NFL's Colin Kaepernick said about why he originated the gesture five years ago -- to silently protest against the outrage of racism and to inspire discussion of the issue. Athletes are still expressing themselves this way, and this expression is still inspiring discussion, so obviously the objective of taking the knee is still being successfully achieved. Whether it changes minds or not, the gesture is clearly keeping the issue front and center, exactly as intended -- so it is neither a failed gesture nor a futile one.

Brent Stephens
297 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:31:47
Jay LAT #276
“I accidentally bumped my car wing mirror into a Russian guy's here in Riga not that long ago, so I did the British thing and smiled, apologised, offered to straighten it up, etc., only to be told, in unambiguous terms, to foxtrot oscar. That was a salient reminder to me that - generally speaking - Russians do not think like me, or share my Anglo social graces”

I also knocked a wing mirror in England. The Anglo, using his social graces, also told me to foxtrot oscar. Conclusion…

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

298 Posted 11/06/2021 at 22:38:03
Forgot to add to my previous post two links on the subject from the always excellent Guardian cartoonist David Squires. The first from December, the second from this week.

Dec 2020 - The Booing of the Knee

June 2021 - The Unlikely Marxist Takeover of English Football

Kevin Prytherch
299 Posted 11/06/2021 at 23:04:02
Kieron - 294 - that’s kind of my point. Treat everyone equally because we are all human. That’s why I’m against focussing on one group above all others and against gestures that divide. I would prefer movements and gestures that we can all agree on. I don’t doubt for one minute that the intentions of every player are admirable, but what is the point when 40% of the population is against it?

Thomas - I hope you’re not a father because, if you honestly would not be cautious in that situation then I would fear for your kids safety.

Dale Self
300 Posted 11/06/2021 at 23:12:31
Look Kevin, we're not looking for agreement here. At least I'm not. We are good with what's happening and I think as long as players wish to take this approach they have enough support to make it effective. Whether or not those gestures and actions work out for those who just can't quite get with what it is all about does not matter to me. The statement against racism is not to try and convince those who can't really see it being a big enough problem for all this attention-seeking Marxist stuff to be justified. So I guess the point is, when you dig into a position deal with the attrition. Our minds haven't changed on this either.
Si Cooper
301 Posted 12/06/2021 at 01:33:02
Kevin P (256), “The thing that makes us argue is the kneeling gestures and Black Lives Matter. That is the ‘shaking the glass’ analogy because, without that, we would work together to eradicate racism.”
For pity’s sake get it right! The thing that makes us argue are YOUR claims that black lives matter is about elevating a group to pre-eminence rather than simply levelling the playing field, and that a passive gesture is anything like being assaulted.
The ants have no intelligence to speak of. They don’t know about glass jars being shaken, they just feel themselves being buffeted and mindlessly attack the nearest thing they can identify as a ‘potential’ threat. We are human. We are supposed to be intelligent. We should all be able to see that taking the knee is nothing more than a show of support to all those who want to eradicate racism. If you openly oppose that show of support for eradicating racism then you are aligning yourself either with those who don’t think the racism exists or with those who are happy for it to exist.
One last time Kevin. You are not an ant and you are not being shaken so you don’t have to act like a shaken ant.
Thomas Richards
302 Posted 12/06/2021 at 09:10:14
Kevin P,

Mine are fine thank you, wonderful people.
All blessed with good ability to judge a fellow human being by their character not the colour of thier skin.

I encouraged them to mix with diverse cultures from an early age.
The result of that is they are all well rounded, not frightened or nervous when a person from another culture is near.

There is also an alternative way to bring your children up of course.

Kevin Molloy
303 Posted 12/06/2021 at 09:46:36
Thomas
Literally thousands of under age vulnerable girls have been gang raped by one particular culture, right in the middle of your community, and your point is that that fact doesn't affect by one iota your approach towards that community, on the basis that, what, it's just a coincidence? or the implications of making generalisations are so awful, that you will draw no conclusions about the above grim facts at all?
if that is true, it does show how lefties can be led into hell, through their reluctance to ever be prepared to acknowledge facts that run contra to their view of the world as they would wish it to be.
And such attitudes are what allowed such evil to remain unchallenged for decades. Public institutions much preferred to look the other way and sacrifice so many lives on the altar of political correctness.
Thomas Richards
304 Posted 12/06/2021 at 10:10:54
Kevin, 303

Thousands?
One is too many of course but accuracy required.

My point is.
Muslim does not equal rapist.
Is EVERY muslim who lives in that community dangerous?

Barry Hesketh
305 Posted 12/06/2021 at 10:16:54
I've only taken a glance at the comments on here, as I haven't got a clue why this thread has been hijacked for a debate on the taking of the knee - whilst it's a very important social issue, is TW really the forum to discuss it at such length? I do hope the match threads about the Euro's aren't hi-jacked in a similar manner. If necessary can a designated thread be started for those that wish to continue the discussion?
Darren Hind
306 Posted 12/06/2021 at 10:24:55
Agreed Barry.

This thread started on a footy forum, traveled to speakers corner in Hyde park then ended up in the baggy.

Thomas Richards
307 Posted 12/06/2021 at 11:00:28
Make sure you give your smalls a good dollying
Kev Jones
308 Posted 12/06/2021 at 11:15:56
Kevin Pryterch #256

I don’t know where you got your figures but they look like they may have come from a report in 2011. The Home office report is from 2020 and is based on a review of previous available information. The report shows that group based sexual exploitation offenders are most commonly white.

Some studies suggest an over representation of black and Asian offenders due to ‘’date quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies and the potential for biases and inaccuracies in the way that date ethnicity is collected’’…’’ it is not possible to conclude that this is representative of all group based CSE offending.’’

Nazir Afal the former prosecutor of the Rochdale gangs welcomed the report which confirmed that ‘white men remain the most common offenders’’ and that ’’by focusing entirely on the ethnicity of the offender, we miss the bigger picture which is how the unheard, the left behind women and girls are invariably the victims’’.

Kev Jones
309 Posted 12/06/2021 at 11:20:34
Kevin Molloy #251 Kevin Pryterch#256

Some of the survivors of abuse in Rochdale initially received support from the English Defence League and the British National Party. When survivors reported that they had also been abused by gangs of white men the EDL and BNP turned against them because they did not want to know this unwelcome fact. It is also true that some of the abused supported EDL and BNP initiatives.

The EDL and BNP concentrate on the disproportionate number of Asian men involved in these crimes because it suits their divisive racist agenda. If you are happy being in bed with fascists then ‘’each to their own’’.

Kev Jones
310 Posted 12/06/2021 at 11:25:23
Kevin Pryterch #256

As a Dad myself I recognise the desire to protect my daughter. As you live near Rochdale your fear of Asian gangs in that area has a basis in reality. Unfortunately in generalising that fear to an entire community you are creating racial stereotypes that further inflame division.

Kev Jones
311 Posted 12/06/2021 at 11:50:09
Barry #305 Darren #306

The thread was not highjacked it started because the thread opening report was silent on the booing which accompanied taking the knee and which had received widespread media attention.

It had degenerated into the usual rinse and repeat cycle of slagging off the redshite ignoring that Southgate and one such redshite had said something important about challenging racism. That sparked the discussion bringing the two faces of football together.

It’s demeaning and a bit ironic that a poster who spends a lot of time and energy slagging off other posters and talking about betting can’t expend the same energy on the discussion above. The thread shows that football and politics are in the wash together.

My head is spinning now - off to the euros!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

312 Posted 12/06/2021 at 12:07:33
Cummon Barry and Darren.

You should know by now that these sorts of off piste threads are very common on TW and indeed one of its strengths.

All praise to Michael and Lyndon for allowing that. They obviously accept the validity of the debate as they haven't stepped in to suppress it or close the thread which is now 6 days in since it moved almost exclusively to a debate on racism and the validity or not of footballers continuing to take the knee.

As always it has been very educational and I for one love TW all the more for such moments as these.

Brian Williams
313 Posted 12/06/2021 at 12:22:57
If a player doesn't take the knee before the game does that make HIM a racist?
Kevin Prytherch
314 Posted 12/06/2021 at 13:12:25
Very good article relating to this today if you have time to read it. Far better at explaining the different viewpoints than I am:

My prediction is that some English supporters will boo their own side even before a ball has been kicked at Wembley stadium.

The booing will be followed by another section of the crowd applauding. And that's because the England players will have taken the knee.

They will have shown their support for Black Lives Matter (BLM) and, therefore, they are against racism. So it follows logically that those who boo must be sympathetic to racism.

It's easy to paint a picture of them. Drunken louts with more tattoos than brain cells whose views shame us all. And, yes, they exist.

We know because we've seen them at their most repellent — usually doing their pathetic best to turn peaceful demonstrations into riots.

But there will be many in that stadium who will not boo. Nor will they applaud.

They will have been as horrified as the rest of us at the slow, agonising murder of a black man at the hands of a white policeman in the United States a year ago.

They will have perfectly good relationships with people who have skin of a different colour. Some will marry them. Some will neither notice the colour difference nor care about it. They believe that we are all the same under the skin.

So why won't they applaud the knee-takers?

I suspect that many resent being forced to prove that they are decent human beings who don't have a racist bone in their bodies. They resent having to answer the 'are you with us or against us?' challenge. And why should they?

Quite simply because they believe the way they lead their lives answers that question for them. They want to be judged by their deeds and not their words.

There's something else, too.

They suspect that taking the knee is more about showing support for the organisation behind the gesture than it is about showing respect for people with black skin.

They do not want to support BLM, a movement with its roots in America whose founders have admitted they want to destroy capitalism and defund the police.

They reject the idea that racism is the only legitimate prism through which we should see the world. They don't like seeing statues being pulled down, buildings renamed, heroes shamed and feeling they should apologise for having a white skin.

They don't like being told: if you're with us you should applaud those who take the knee. If you're not with us you are a racist. They're pretty good at spotting virtue signalling when they see it and it makes them very uneasy.

So they don't applaud and they don't boo. Instead, they just try to get on with their lives. What makes them uneasy is what they see as extremism.

Thomas Richards
315 Posted 12/06/2021 at 13:29:23
Brian, 313.

Like Zaha?

Michael Boardman
316 Posted 12/06/2021 at 22:54:36
Take the knee, or don't, personal choice. Booing it, that's offering an opinion, and also offering disregard for an opinion, which negates the former right to offer an opinion within which you have just taken. My opinion to the rights or wrongs to taking the knee are irrelevant overall, as I respect the rights of individuals to either do so, or not.
Andy Crooks
317 Posted 13/06/2021 at 01:25:18
Taking the knee is devisive. Seems to me that is a pretty good reason to keep doing it. Booing is better than silent indifference. Keep it an issue. Every boo confirms, in my view, that it should continue.

Deep, deep inside, watching footballers taking the knee pisses me off. Makes me feel resentful. So.. It's not a futile gesture.

Martin Mason
318 Posted 13/06/2021 at 11:24:40
Kevin@314 Faulty logic mate. Booing doesn't show that the people are pro-racism. If they are like me they are sick of the stupidity of the gesture when it's done repeatedly. The point is made when the action is done once and doing it again and again is pointless. Stand against racism and take a knee for nobody, give no support to BLM. All lives matter.
Brent Stephens
319 Posted 13/06/2021 at 15:21:00
Andy #317 "Every boo confirms, in my view, that it should continue."

Amen, brother.


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