Everton duo start in England warm-up match

Hope they get knocked out early, that way there'll be no more booing.

Jay, I don't know that Rashford has an ego problem but as for playing, I'm still waiting to see what all the hype is about.

So why did you snatch it off DCL then, you toblerone booted gobshite?

That is until Henderson picked up that ball !

He isn't any better than Tom Davies and many other managers may have left him out in favour of others more worthy.

I think Roy Keane, is correct, and hopefully DCL can learn from this experience so he doesn’t let it happen again.

I was getting told Lewin was arguing with Allen, the other week, and when Andre Gomes, told him to have more respect for the senior players, Dominic told him he was surprised he was getting involved, considering he goes missing on the pitch every other week, so I’m sure he can look out for himself when he needs to, and he’s hopefully learned a lot today?

Henderson is simply over-rated, and should never have played for England. Picking mediocre players like him is one of the reasons England have been shite for so long.

Hendo as Pickford calls him, has confirmed himself to be the total gobshite and most over rated player in Britain, as most have thought for years.

I hope Southgate takes him to the cleaners and he’s put in his place,

Hopefully DCL will get street wise and grow some and stand his ground, henceforth, and spark him in training in the way you can do it and get away with it.

Imagine if this was a quarter final etc, Southgate is no mug, he will be angry and this also impacts his team startedgy and in terms of leadership, today will show him his best Ham shanked, in terms of being a leader.

Let’s hope the media take the RS, wuss who rarely plays half a season, apart.

Hopefully another interesting week for Evertonians with some serious decisions to be made by Moshiri and co.

I think they'll win it

England have deserved their inevitable failures since then. Personally, I’d like to see Everton players shine for England and avoid injury, but don’t give a shit when England lose.

But maybe not having the experience can also work in their favour, even though it will be very difficult, playing in a tournament that has some of the World’s strongest teams, even when you take away the four semi-finalists from the last World Cup.

Watching Belgium tonight, its a pity Everton didn't go for Tielemans.

My older brother hates DCL, and whilst talking to him on the phone, I said to him that he (DCL) had just nearly crashed into me whilst I had one of the kids in the car.

What happened he asked? I said he was giving it the big one, after he nearly hit me, you’re right he’s a cheeky fucker this Lewin.

That’s it he said, we’re gonna have to get to Goodison early, and get hold of this cheeky bastard, am fucking not having this!

Hilarious, he was deadly serious, and the same fella, struggles to get up the stairs before every home game, without losing his breath!

That’s another thing that this lockdown has done to us all, so hopefully it won’t be long before all the wind ups and piss takes begin again for real, as I wonder how long it’ll be before I hear the individual shouts of “fuck off Everton” once again!

Istory is deffo on your side. I'll still be risking a pearl diver

Where the fuck have you been lad ? Good to see you back and talking your customary hard nosed sense.

You are a shrewdy alright, but I'll always get a warmer welcome down the bookies than you will

Me fiver stands. But its really good to see you back on TW.

Tony and Dave, have a word with that other member of your family!

GT entered Market Rasen on Friday - last run before summer break.after his fall last time out. Watch out for two others I have a share in - Name of Fame won last time out and Gold Link, 2nd last three races, but very, very promising.

For me, losing Carlo is neither a tragedy nor humiliating. The football was garbage, results were poor, he took a better offer. May work out well for us if we get the recruitment right. Let's see who we find this time.

I'm not going to totally discount his footballing ability, but Henderson is one of those players who influences the team through his presence. Liverpool recently have had two of them, Milner being the other.

They're good players but not the best. But it's their presence that matters to the team. Surround players like that with quality and they will influence.

Totally different level, but the closest we've had recently was Phil Neville during Moyes' reign. Not the best, and I often would rather have had someone with more ability in the team, but when he didn't play, you could see the impact on the team in my opinion.

I don't think you can blame DCL for not lamping the odious Henderson; the RS had the captain's armband, it was his call on the pitch. Southgate should have subbed him off immediately after missing the pen though, because he was clearly going against the manager's wishes. Big Dunc would have subbed him and shoved a dead pigeon up his arse.

Rashford shouldn't be in the starting line-up, he's so out of form.

Give us a good team and we will always back them, but sometimes I’m glad we can still be a very unforgiving crowd, and you only have to see last season’s home record for real proof of this!

I do wonder how much it costs FSG to maintain this level of media love.

Danny Murphy told talkSPORT on Monday morning that Everton striker, Dominic Calvert-Lewin, should ‘understand what your place is’ in England’s squad after his penalty drama involving Liverpool’s Jordan Henderson.

Rather than criticise the Liverpool midfielder for taking the spot-kick off the Everton man, which was then saved by Romania’s goalkeeper, Murphy opted to hit out at the Everton player instead.

The former Liverpool man claimed that Calvert-Lewin should be ‘thankful’ for his place in the squad and suggested that he was ‘sulking’ before Henderson took the penalty.

This is what Murphy had to say about the Liverpool and Everton duo after yesterday’s penalty incident:

“I don’t mind that (Henderson taking the ball),” said Murphy. “I couldn’t care less really in a friendly.

“The two penalty takers were off. He’s the captain. He decided I want to take it. He flexed his muscles ‘I am the captain and I am going to take it’. Fine. No problem with that.

“You have got to be careful. You have a place in the squad and you have to understand what your place is.

“Calvert-Lewin if you see the penalty. When Jordan took the penalty, Calvert-Lewin has got his hands on his hips. He doesn’t go for the rebound because he’s sulking because he didn’t take it.

“He has had a wonderful season but he should be thankful that he is there. He didn’t have a great end to the season. You don’t spit your dummy out because your captain is taking the penalty.”

If anybody should be thankful that they are in the squad it should be the absolutely shocking Henderson.

On another matter FFS Everton step in and buy Ward Prowse before Villa buy him - send Davies / Gomes the other way. They've almost completed the signing of Buendia - what are you playing at ?

Ward Prowse will be fully rested as Southgate has not included him in the 26 - idiot.

Fortunately it is England, so no-one cares.

DCL, imo, started to believe his own publicity in the second half of the season.
His attitude definitely changed.

Best to ignore pundits, they tend to talk drivel.

I have backed DCL all the way through his young career, as far back as when he got stick because a fool played him wide.
I still back him 100%.

Just something that has crept into his game, seen him throw his arms up after a misplaced pass, doesn't acknowledge the good balls as he used to.

I love to see arrogance in a player but only when the player is of a standard to warrant it.
All part of his development, hopefully the senior players can have a quiet word.

His next step, and the difference between him and Kane, is to improve his outside the box play.

And I don't mean going back to chasing channels. If he can improve his longer range shooting, he can become a more complete striker.

Grahame Sharpe is a good example for us older Evertonians. Could tumble them in unspectacularly from 3 yards (the 4 - 4) but could also smash them from distance. "That" Anfield goal.

That's the bit I see just lacking slightly from Dominic's game. But I don't want to be harsh great progress by the lad and he can get better.

Good points mate.
Taken on board.

Maybe Moshiri is holding back waiting for Southgate to become available after the group stages. Losing sleep over this nightmare scenario already.

Dom wanted to take the penalty, he was the only striker on the pitch, what Hendo did was purely because it was Dom, and not Kane or Rashford.

Now you have pundits having a go at Dom, and see no problem with Hendo.

Now let us look at it in another light, Hendo picks the ball up, Dom takes it off Hendo, then misses the penalty.

Does anyone believe the press would not have hounded Dom, for taking the ball off Hendo, he would have been crucified by every pundit and media outlet, and that my fellow posters is where Everton are easy meat, for the pundits, or media.

Nothing good for EFC ever comes from it

I could not agree more with your post. Calvert-Lewin for example, heads off to the England camp, comes back and starts dropping deeper and deeper like Kane but without the goals. He will come back from the Euros spouting the 'club doesn't match my ambition' and will want a move. I rate Dom a lot but fear his head is already being turned...

Not a great game, our lads did okay, Dom was unlucky with his header and Ben improved as the game went on.

I was expecting a few goals at least having seen the Welsh lads struggle against Albania the day before... please don't start me off with that penalty miss by that Liverpool fucker... England just need to fill their Midfield with creative players and just go it! But they won't.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin hints at Everton exit in future

Modern-day football unfortunately.

He told L’Equipe, “I am happy at Everton. I worked hard to become number nine at this club and score goals like I did recently.

“Personally, I have the ambition to one day play in the Champions League and win titles. But for now, I’m happy at Everton.”

Is he part of the cult of cunts that includes “Trent” and

“Carra”?? 😁

I was agreeing with Ray's general point.

Once you've gone down that route, you simply have to score. Miss and you make a total twat of yourself.

I have no problem whatsoever watching Henderson make a complete Cheshire cat of himself... Highlight of the match.

Calvert-Lewin is the epitome of the modern day player, ie, all smiles and not a mean bone in his body.

Shouldn't be anything to do with who won the penalty or who the ego is. In my humble experience, it doesn't matter who wins the penalty or who the gobshite on the pitch is who thinks he should take it.

You already have decided who is taking it. This season for us, when on the pitch, it was Sigurdsson. These things are decided before kick off.

Weakness from Southgate for allowing it in my opinion.

Southgate did an after match interview where he said "My two designated penalty takers, Rashford and Ward Prowse were not on the pitch"

Just wish Calvert-Lewin would have spoken up, before we allowed Sandro to leave.

I want the same thing. But realistically Everton appear unlikely to achieve that. So we need to show ambition and improvement to keep everyone happy.

If a winning club, a seriously good or ambitious clubs wants our player or our player want out for a chance to win trophies I have no issue with it. It's not nice, ideal but that's football, it happens.

As for the penalty fiasco, Dom is new to the squad, he was respecting the team captain. It was a friendly. No big deal, let the manager deal with it.

We don't know if Dom would have scored. Move on.

As for White coming in, I think he's a better centre back, possibly England's best centre back, but not as fast or as adaptable as our Godfrey.

I would have taken him anyway but I'd also take wardprowse and the villa forward. Southgate selection is too safe. Thank god he saw some sense to take Grealish, a top talent and along with Foden should start all the important games.

The high-profile manager has gone, and we appear to be back to square one in terms of progress. In this respect, any hope that we could retain our top players has also gone, and it’s difficult to see the likes of Digne, Richarlison, DCL and Rodriguez staying here much longer.

Whether such players love or support Everton is irrelevant, because they are professionals who want the best opportunities to play in the Champions League and win a trophy or two. And they can probably see clearly, just as us supporters can, that they won’t be able to achieve that with Everton. So we’re very likely to remain midtable for the foreseeable future.

It was fairly obvious that neither Carlo, or Silva, were reading from the same sheet as Marcel Brands, which is counter productive. What this guy suggested was that Marcel Brands played the major role in deciding who the next Manager would be.

Obviously someone who HE could work with, and agree on both style, formations and forays into the Transfer Market, otherwise it could be case of the recent pretty abject and wasteful History repeating itself. Personally I would welcome a no nonsense Manager, and let's get away from this sentimentality when discussing our new incumbent.

By that I mean, we all love Duncan and his passion but is he really ready for the job ? I think that has been a major part of the problem, since Farhad Moshiri came on Board. Let's face it I could probably write on the back of a Postage Stamp what he knows about Football.

I also think he has not only been ill-advised, but possibly duped too into believing that his generosity, of which should have been a Godsend, would make good Investments in both the appointing Club Managers and Players alike. Instead we have a mish-mash of a squad, some good, few very good, but largely not good enough.

A sad indictment, when you think of the amount of money expended, and what we have actually ended up with!

Ex Redshite midfielder Danny Murphy stated that Calvert-Lewin needs to “understand what his place is” and accused him of “sulking” when Henderson took the ball off him for the penalty.

However, historical comments have come to light which shows Murphy’s stance is utterly biased against Everton.

A similar incident to Sunday occurred in December 2017, when Crystal Palace striker Christian Benteke took the ball from designated penalty-taker Luka Miliovojevic and subsequently missed.

Murphy branded Benteke “self-indulgent and selfish” and called for the Belgian to be benched for their next game.

So what’s changed now? Four years may have passed, but has Murphy suddenly changed his opinion after years of playing and discussing elite-level football?

That is unlikely, and his recent comments smack of bias towards the Redshite and their players and highlights his anti-Everton agenda. Hopefully, someone shows Murphy his embarrassing 2017 comments and he can offer an on-air apology or explain how his stance has shifted over the years.

The taking the knee issue was about racism when it was done once. When it was done once the point was made and once should have been the limit. Every other time since then has been a total waste of the issue. Taking the knee for Western people is a act of subjugation and should never have been done more than once to support the racism issue. Taking the knee should be stopped immediately and trying to incriminate fans for booing about it even faster. Continuing it is pure stupidity now as it is becoming bigger than the game and it isn't. Are modern black players the victim of racism from whites? Not in a million years, they are excellent examples of Black privilege.

Ask the players who get the monkey emojis on a regular basis Martin. ,"Are modern black players the victim of racism from whites"

Ask the players who get the monkey emojis on a regular basis Martin. ,,,1,17:42:54,,109.249.181.49,ok,23848,06/09/2021 17:42:54,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1163362,40899,toffeeweb,09/06/2021,Dale Self,dself@heartmath.com,"Once again Jay 50 thanks for that post and well timed for those fading in their enthusiasm for this club. Since we're on personal notes (wait, wait come back it's short) I work at a company/institute that is about doing things profitably but differently, with a bit of care if you will. Everton is very well positioned to be the kind of club to which people can relate. I began supporting Everton because they weren't big money football but now that I've learned to love the bomb it still is part of the attraction that we're not completely corped up like an FSG unit.

Much of our present discomfort comes from seeing some ambition turn into a Frankenstein more of the Peter Boyle version than the original. Your insights on the ground level events taking hold is promising and exactly what we need to be keeping our eyes and hearts on. The chase to be CL competitive can get topsy-turvy especially with the coaches' market revealing some negotiation power on the side of the candidates like I've never seen. A lot of turnover and dissatisfaction at the top clubs is a bit of cover for the reputation hit we've taken. Should the board make this episode a turnaround Everton could continue to grow as a brand of football and way of life. Ok, that was a bit sappy at the end but it's been a bit shit of late and I'm ready to feel a little different about things.

On the wind-up again, Martin!

Western traditions include taking the knee to the monarch and Martin Luther King also took the knee as a symbol of peaceful protest, so what’s the problem?

No one is trying to incriminate fans - the boo boys are being challenged to explain why they are booing a peaceful protest by footballers for racial equality. If they then find themselves accused of racism what do they expect? If you agree with anti racist sentiment, don’t want to be identified as racist but don’t agree with taking the knee, then why not support the greater cause and stay silent?

I mean...seriously?

Right wing propaganda. ,"Its a marxist organisation."

Right wing propaganda. ,,,1,21:36:11,,213.205.242.61,ok,23848,06/09/2021 21:36:11,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1163420,40889,toffeeweb,09/06/2021,Pat Kelly,Patkelly@outlook.ie,"Galtier has walked out on his contract with Lille. He has, reportedly, an agreement in principle with Nice. Wonder how long he'd honour a contract with us if things got difficult.

I grew up in a multi racial Liverpool, my parents instilled equality in me.

I'm an NHS nurse and some of the best Dr's and nurses I've ever had the pleasure of working with are ethnic.

If BLM want to be taken seriously why haven't their own come out and pointed the finger at those who shot that girl in the head.

I won't take any knee, I'll show my respect by being a decent human being thank you very much.

Who are "they"

Dave 159,

"If BLM want to be taken seriously why haven't their own come out and pointed the finger at those who shot that girl in the head"

Thier own?

Can you explain that please

As for keeping quiet, why is it if someone doesn't agree with the left stance we're all classed as racist and have to be quiet? Enough is enough. Even Zaha is refusing to take the knee now.

Kevin, I think we need to distinguish between BLM (capitals) and blm (lower case). What I mean by that is that I'm sure the vast majority of people who identify with the black lives matter movement (movement, not a formal organisation) are not marxists, and are just expressing their opposition to racism.

On the other hand, there seems to be a formal organisation, calling itself BLM (capitals) who might well be marxists, but that's a formal organisation I (and I guess the majority of blm - lower case - people) became aware of after starting to support certain activities (labelled as blm) which support anti-racism.

We shouldn't confuse one with the other.

You're confused, fellah.

What do I have to explain? The fact that it was black on black killing?

Not for me to explain anything.

For the record, I despise any group of individuals who attempt to segregate, demean, vilify, oppress and stir up hatred no matter what race, colour or creed they maybe.

Religion, and politics only seek to divide and control people for the benefit of the few.

Im having no part of any of it, I've got life to live and intend to live it as as best I can.

Please could you also give examples of systematic racism in this country that is current and not historic? As far as I can see there are the same opportunities right through school for any child, which will then feed into employment. Numerous studies have in fact proven that it is white working class boys who are treated worse throughout school - where is the support for them? Or does that not fit the narrative of people’s reading?

As Kevin has pointed out, Kick it out is roundly supported in this country, so why now continue with a symbol that is directly linked to Black Lives Matter, whatever the intention is.

I find it equally shocking that this gesture is continually going ahead when atrocities such as the Rochdale grooming gangs still fighting against deportation are happening. Those poor teenage girls have to walk about knowing that they could bump into the gangs who systematically raped and impregnated them because they fight for their ‘human rights’. Where is the support for them? Or do they not deserve support because of their white privilege?

I fully support equality for all and find racism abhorrent, but Black Lives Matter is not the way to eradicate racism and divisive gestures will do nothing but stir up racial tension and racial divides.

It's you who are making a false link. I very much doubt these people link with that organisation. I, and many like me, certainly don't.

An analogy, Kevin. You call yourself an Everton man. Everton has Kenwright as Chairman. Does that make you a Kenwright man? Of course not.

Supporters are not the formal organisation. That goes for fans of the blm movement just as it does for fans of Everton.

A simple look at traffic ticketing practices will give you an elementary primer on the existence of racism. Run all the regressions you want and if that race parameter is significant, well there you go. Many social science research papers can provide you the knowledge that racism currently is practiced in even the most advanced countries. But it is on you to give it an honest look.

The divide and tension is stirred by the political ideologies and the question of “why do Black Lives Matter more than any other life?”, which is a question asked by many. If you disagree with the last part then you are either naive or are not being honest with yourself. I’m not saying that anyone who takes the knee believes that this is the case, I’m confident that the vast majority want equality for all. However, as previously mentioned, where is the support for other ethnic groups, or any other protected characteristic, who suffer similarly? The movement if focussed on racism and specifically one race, which is in itself a definition of racism.

The taking of the knee was associated with Black Lives Matter because of the way that George Floyd died. The gesture will always be associated with the movement and will always cause tension. Therefore, why not choose a gesture that is not divisive. The very nature of the comments on here suggest that there is no universal support, so why not gesture in a way that does gain universal support.

I’m not saying that racism in this country doesn’t exist, it obviously does. But it does not exist anywhere near as much as other countries and is considered as socially unacceptable as drink driving - both of which were socially accepted 30-40 years ago. We have made massive strides in this country to get to where we are now and this continued divisive gesture does absolutely nothing to help this.

If you know yer history, you’ll know Herman Goerring at Nuremberg explained he was never against Jews he was against bankers and communists, and it just happened that many of them were Jews. While he towed that line his mates happily carried on exterminating Jews indiscrimately. Do not insult our intelligence on here by claiming you or anyone else fears a Red takeover by marxists and therefore cannot acknowledge obvious systemic racism. I do not believe for one second that anyone actually believes that. I believe it’s a convenient excuse for people who are racist be it mildly or rabidly.

To suggest that I, a business owner, millionaire footballers, and many others are supporting a Marxist organisation looking to overthrow 'our' society is a fabulous piece of intellectual gymnastics. One can only speculate why some people are desperate to make that tenuous link.

Yes you did.

Also, I never said it originated from George Floyd, but is associated with it. It gained widespread popularity and, due to how he died, was immediately associated with it.

Years ago a law was passed saying that a husband could beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb - hence the expression “the rule of thumb”. You don’t think that every time that phrase is uttered people trace it back to its origins?

Apologies, I've just re read my post.

I'll quantify for you.

I was referring to the BLM "movement"and not trying to refer to black people as a whole.
That would be construed as a possible racist remark I'll grant you.

That young girl was a BLM activist, the group have done nothing to bring those murders to justice.

"That young girl was a BLM activist, the group have done nothing to bring those murders to justice"

What action could they have taken?

Kevin,

More right wing propaganda.

Are you suggesting ANYONE who takes a knee is marxist?

If people don’t want to stay silent that’s fine but ‘each to their own’, which implies tolerance and respect for different views, does not work with racism. If something that could be racist is happening it should be questioned and never be tolerated. If you support anti-racism but remain silent when racism rears its ugly head you might put your disagreement about a particular anti-racist tactic to one side and get off the fence, otherwise you will risk being seen as complicit by association.

I understand that you also think the BLM inspired protest is Marxist but I think that has been thoroughly refuted on this and other threads. I also don’t understand why taking the knee is seen as subservient rather than as a peaceful mark of respect. It was inspired by events thousands of miles away as you say but why has caught on here? I suggest it’s because the same issues about Black lives apply in the UK. Kick it out is a fantastic initiative but why has it has never provoked so much debate and support around anti-racism in football? I suggest it because BLM is born from and has touched the raw nerve of racism that deeply divides our society and many people don’t like to see this. Is it really being rammed down your throat? How long does the knee last for now, 5 seconds?

I also wondered if the experience of Covid has shaken your contention that the UK is not a systemically racist society? Covid has highlighted the deep fractures between the life chances and experience of black people in Britain in terms of worse outcomes in health, education and employment, hence the continuing need for protest. I think Black people might also disagree on just how tolerant Britain is. I’m glad I live in a UK metropolitan area because my experience of other areas is that they are less diverse and often much less tolerant.

"we support every attempt to deal with the evil that is racism but feel "the knee" has run it's course and is in danger of losing any positive association with the issue it was created to highlight. As such we won't be doing it before anymore England games"

"So Thomas.
You are of the opinion nobody knew or knows who pulled the trigger?"

What gave you that idea?

They could make it known to the authorities who did it.

You can't lay blame on others for your lack of inequality or discrimination and then cover for people who are the same race because they are the same race.

We live in the "Now" not the past, we can't alter the past but we can shape the future for the better.

I think you are conflating marxism with the Stalinist communism of the USSR and China. Some of the first people into the Soviet gulags were the Marxist left opposition, anarchists and democratic socialists who opposed Stalin. Members of other oppositions in anarchist, marxist and socialist movements outside the Soviet Union were also murdered in Stalin’s attempt to destroy opposition to his rule.

Contemporary marxists take on board the terrible crimes and political mistakes committed by Stalinism in the USSR and China and attempt to change their political practices and organisation to reflect this.

To allay your anxieties you might enjoy this humorous take on marxism and football:

Link

"They could make it known to the authorities who did it."

How do you know they know "who did it"

Stop being divisive mate, someone knows, you know that and I know that.

You couldnt make it up. ,"Stop being divisive mate"

You couldnt make it up. ,,,1,15:05:57,,109.249.181.71,ok,23848,06/10/2021 15:05:57,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1163682,40908,toffeeweb,10/06/2021,Rob Young,gta_vdijk@live.nl,Dave # 197 I don't want safe. What's the point then? ,Dave # 197 I don't want safe. What's the point then? ,,,1,15:09:18,,77.161.81.60,ok,4789,06/10/2021 15:09:18,RobYoung,reader,,,no 1163683,40909,toffeeweb,10/06/2021,Jay Harris,orchard25@hotmail.com,"Lyndon, A well presented case for the man I would love to take over but as Ray #12 says we still have players who cant pass a ball or motivate themselves and for me we still lack goals in the squad but hopefully Brands is on that case.

There is so much shortism in football these days that I would even have Conte just for a 12 month ride.

BLM arose in the USA because of the higher numbers of black people murdered by the police in comparison to white people. In turn this highlighted other oppressions suffered in relation to health, education and life chances black people suffer in comparison to whites.

All the same, the focus on black lives has not stopped recognition and finding common ground with others, such as the police murder of Asian Americans. Nor the discrimination and oppression suffered by other people of colour or white working class Americans.

In the UK some white working class youth suffer similar economic oppression to black people but this oppression is not based on the colour of their skin.

White women in Rochdale are threatened because they are women not because of the colour of their skin.

This is the divide, the radical separateness of the black experience, that many white people have trouble acknowledging. Support for taking the knee recognises this difference and is the basis for other alliances and finding of common ground.

I support Gareth Southgate and applaud his empathy in backing his players. I also do care what that redshite said on taking the knee because we really should give a fuck and care.

When a working class white person is disadvantaged it is due to other factors, but when an ethnic minority person is disadvantaged for the same reasons (economic oppression etc) it is automatically due to the colour of their skin? Why is an ethnic minority person, living in poverty due the the economic circumstances of the area and their parents inability to access better paid employment any different to a white person living with the same conditions?

Also, the girls in Rochdale were targeted due to the colour of their skin. They were viewed as “white slags” by the Asian gangs who systematically raped them. How do you think the people of Rochdale, who have lived with these abhorrent crimes against their community, feel if the Rochdale football team takes a knee in support of Black Lives Matter? I would guess that they would feel completely alienated and forgotten about - and therefore the movement would instantly create a divide.

As Martin says, this country has made massive strides and is much more tolerant than the USA, we should promote that rather than making gestures that evidently divide opinions.

Taking the knee is only a divisive gesture in that it divides those of us who are racist from those of us who are not racist.

The gesture itself is incredibly low impact and peaceful. It's literally a single minute of time where people make a gesture to draw attention to the issue of racism. That's it. One minute, no shouting, certainly no violence, and then it's move on to the game.

There seem to be a few on here who oppose the gesture and disavow any accusations of racism. Well, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not racist, would you not just look at the context of all the racism that has even existed in the world, and say to yourself "yeah, fair enough, all these people are saying racism is still an issue and they want to take a minute of my time to point that out, I'll just let it play out without complaining"?

What would you lose by that?

I'm not familiar with the Rochdale incident, but your logic is fairly twisted: Supporting BLM means you support the rape of white women by Asian gangs? I'm genuinely not being provocative here, but do you really think that people who support BLM (or let's call it anti-racism as people can't agree on here as to what BLM) are all in favour of white women getting raped as a hate crime (or for any reason, obviously, but just being specific to the issue of race here)? Because that's what you've implied.

The fact that racism is not as bad as it was is not really an issue to stop making progress. By 1920 we had made great strides in medical science. Why didn't we just stop then?

For the record, I think it's likely that the gesture has or will become devoid of its meaning as a symbol, and that might be a reason to stop doing it. But it's not up to me to decide that, and I'm certainly happy for it to made until that consensus is reached.

I've been to some incredibly intolerant places and seen some pretty bad treatment of people and property. We are simply not that type of society. Believe me.

The UK is a very tolerant and diverse society. We accept people from different backgrounds. Liverpool as a city is an example of that. Perfect? Of course not. But I don't feel we need to make such a big issue out of something that isn't necessarily so.

I coached a Hayes & Yeading team in West London from under 11s through to 18s. English, Irish, West African, British Asian. Afghan. No issues whatsoever. Great bunch of lads and great team spirit amongst them.

Maybe the advent of social media has reignited the problem.

There is no place for racism. Maybe the broader issue here is trolls abusing people on social media.

I said I'd keep it short. It's me. I'm sorry.

Its rampant and its getting worse not better.

https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/hate-crime-linked-to-race-is-on-the-rise-data-by-victim-support-reveals/.

Our city is better than most I agree.
Nonetheless it is widespread. The Brexit vote was won on the back of working class cities and towns being swayed by the propaganda of "they are taking your hospital appointments, they are stealing your jobs", etc etc.

Sadly racism is as bad as it ever was, just not so much in your face.

Its rampant and its getting worse not better.

https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/hate-crime-linked-to-race-is-on-the-rise-data-by-victim-support-reveals/.

Our city is better than most I agree.
Nonetheless it is widespread. The Brexit vote was won on the back of working class cities and towns being swayed by the propaganda of "they are taking your hospital appointments, they are stealing your jobs", etc etc.

Thomas that's just your opinion and nothing more. To use that to back up your argument basically loses you credibility, IMO.
Stick to irrefutable facts if you're going to make sweeping statements like that.

I believe it refers to our current society who are outraged and offended by the slightest thing.

When my son explained it, rightly or wrongly (and putting a light hearted spin on this) my initial reply was "so it's like everyone have become kopites"?

He's a massive Evertonian but he just shook his head at me.

It is a national study I posted a link to.
Not JUST my opinion.
What,in your opinion, was refutable?

I'm not putting light on the subject of racism. I've worked and do work in very diverse environments and as I said, I've seen first hand what intolerance can do in places where it has resulted in destruction and human loss.

I may have inadvertently caused a bit of confusion as to what I was referring to as I only meant to highlight part of the post!

Thats what you get for trying to post using your phone but no glasses.

Brian, fair comment.
That is my take on it, not the national study.
The national study is accurate though.

I do not want to get teachy and pedantic about it, everyone gets to talk how they want to talk. However, when the language minimizes the concerns of the other side so casually don't expect a request for clarity. The chosen way of talking about something reveals plenty.

Sorry, but the rest of your post pales into insignificance after that ridiculous paragraph.

In no way did I say that supporting BLM supports rape, I pointed out that other abhorrent crimes in society are not deemed worthy of as much support as black people, and that is not fair on the victims of those crimes who are not deemed worthy of as much support.

I voted remain, each to thier own.
Tell me to mind my own business if I am out of order, but what was your reason for voting to leave?

You see Martin, racists can never really hide their racism, it always comes out with a gesture or a slip of the tongue or a finger mistake etc.. but it’s always there, latent, hiding, just waiting to pounce at the first opportunity.

We’ve been able to brush overt racism under the carpet but it’s still there and always will be despite the claims of the racists.

Dale, I was just trying to explain my mybunderstainf of the term "woke".

I'll be honest, I don't really understand it.

Racism; different issue. Someone asked what woke meant.

Just please try to understand my sensitivity that was displayed in my entries. I don't need to draw any conclusions over a post or two.

I don't really understand the term woke. I'm too old, so just gave my understanding based on a question I asked someone.

Happy you educate me.

But I maintain, the UK is a largely tolerant society. It can get better but it is tolerant.

Sorry Dale, I didn't mean to offend.

Please readjust your hood so you can read better.

Amongst everything else going on in life, an out-of-the-blue sudden massive rise by more than two thirds, across the board of "Hate" categories, just like that. Sure!

That by the way, is based on the figures given by that independent charity alone, it is not a "National study" in the generally perceived sense of the concept.

Apologies Terry, i am blaming the auto spelling on the ipad

My sentiments will not change the world, I know.

"Mind your own business." 🤣
Seriously it's not something I can put across, or be arsed putting across on TW. Face to face at one of the get togethers maybe, over a Pimms. 😉

All good Brian, I get it now 😁😁

The online factor doesn't reflect day to day interaction. I'm in West London; culturally diverse and brilliant mix.

I've genuinely never treated people anything other than people regardless of background. It goes back to my own roots. We're all people. True equality just looks at the person and their ability, or personalty, nothing else. That's all I've ever done. In work and on the football pitch, in life.

Think I'll leave this one now as I need to get back to fretting and overthinking who the next Manager is going to be.

I have no control over it. But it has control over my sleep patterns. I see another sleepless night on the cards and concerned dogs. They do worry about Everton.

I think racism exists more in my generation in terms of foreigners as opposed to colour of skin. I may be wrong but discrimination I find in uk is more on discrepancy on poor.

In terms of booing, I’m sure some is ignorance, some for other reasons, some for racism but I do not think it’s clear cut and a lot of it, I genuinely think people are just fed up being told what to support and what not and how to support and how not.

Undoubtedly due to their upbringing Peter.
Long may that continue.
The key to an equal society is in the education of youth.

Okay for the sake of not arguing, let's just strike out my first paragraph.

Will you engage with the point I made after that? (I am interested in having a genuine back and forth, so hopefully you will).

To wit, taking the knee is a really low impact gesture. It literally lasts a minute and involves no violence. It doesn't even involve sound.

Given that and how big a problem racism has been, would you not say "okay, I'll just go with it, as I'd prefer we do too much than too little"?

Genuine question.

"There seem to be a few on here who oppose the gesture and disavow any accusations of racism."

I am one of the few.

The "gesture" (and that is all it is) has done nothing to improve the abhorrence of racism.
I would suggest, after the initial impact, it has had the opposite affect.

I’ll give you an analogy with the Black Lives Matter movement.

Years ago, David Attenborough put a load of red ants and a load of black ants in a jar. Nothing happened. He then shook the jar vigorously and all the red ants and black ants started attacking each other as they both thought the other was responsible for shaking the jar.

Taking the knee and Black Lives Matter is akin to shaking the jar. It is a gesture that divides. The fact that there are so many posts is tested at to that fact. If we had a gesture, such as Scotland are doing in standing around the centre circle, that is. I affiliated with Black Lives Matter then the jar will not be shaken and we can all work together to stamp out racism.

Will 229 - Interesting statistics. Do they prove that hate crimes rose during lockdown, or do they prove the the BLM movement have had the complete opposite effect of what it was intended? Probably a combination of both

That is an embarrassing reply. Albert's post at 178 was well after you posted “... more than any other life” as if it automatically follows “Black Lives Matter”, and his post does nothing more than call for a levelling up across society.

I think it is also important to see that taking the knee is about so much more than the murder of George Floyd, so I think people should go beyond that single event if they want to understand the groundswell of support that the footballers are simply adding their ‘voice' to.

That analogy is poor because you assume the ants realise the jar is being shaken, and that those ants would otherwise always be passive with each other. Wrong on both counts. The ants feel ‘themselves' being shaken and react to an ‘attack' by attacking anything they don't recognise as ‘their kind' (sounds a bit like racism, actually). Red ants raid black ant nests for young which then grow up to be a ‘slave' population; red and black ants will fight over resources such as territory. Mind you, they will be equally as combative against ants of the same species but from different colonies.

Your analogy suggests that morons look at footballers taking the knee and feel under attack, making them lash out at individuals who don't fall within their concept of ‘my kind'. That sounds very much like (latent) racism and those people will feel threatened by ‘others' no matter what. I'm not in favour of binning a legitimate attempt to raise awareness just to pacify them.

That's actually fair enough and I agree that there's probably a debate to be had as to whether the gesture is effective any more.

(I also agree that it is just a gesture and doesn't magically erase racism.)

However, your point that it's just not effective against racism is not the point of view of some of the others on here who oppose it. Theirs is that we shouldn't be protesting racism at all, that racism was worse in the 70s, that there are other injustices out there so why let racism hog the limelight, etc.

And now it's time for me to set my keyboard aside and rest.

I've seen no posts on here that have rubbished taking the knee because they believe that we shouldn't protest against racism rather than the gesture itself being stupid. Stand against racism, kneel for no man – even when it's virtue signalling. Do something – don't make gestures.

I expect the people of Rochdale would have consulted the 2020 home office report that concluded that most sexual exploitation gangs were organized by white men under 30. They might also agree with Nazir Afzal who prosecuted the Rochdale gangs and concluded that racial stereotyping linked to this crime is a false distraction that further inflames divisive racist attitudes.

The could look at the research by Bradley and Cockburn which showed that although the majority of women sexually exploited by gangs are white, that women from Afro Caribbean and Bangladeshi minorities were also exploited. As the population in the area involved was mainly white, ethnic minority women were in fact over represented as victims of the crime. They conclude that this ‘’challenges the view that white girls are sought out by offenders, suggesting instead that convenience and accessibility may be the prime drivers for those looking for new victims." Nazir concluded that the crime is related not to race but to the widespread sexual violence suffered by women of all communities.

The good people of Rochdale, considering these points and taking into account the small number of men from ethnic minorities being involved in sexual gangs, might remember that nationally black people and ethnic minorities do suffer disadvantage and discrimination from racism that white people do not suffer. In a gesture of understanding and empathy that might reach across the racist divide which does nothing to help the women and girls who are victims of sexual crime, they might then offer their support for the peaceful gesture of taking the knee.

And if the people of Rochdale had not taken the broader view into account then they really would have to ask themselves were they acting of out of their racist prejudices.

It seems to me that it has to be a permanent feature of the game in England, unless someone can come up with a workaround fudge that allows players to stop doing it without looking like they've caved in.

I will call out racism wherever I see it, on line or in person. But I haven't witnessed open racism in a premier league ground in years. It seems the racism in the game is almost entirely on line, and - some reports have indicated - in many cases, from overseas.

Nobody booed Kick It Out, so I'm not sure how fans in the ground have suddenly become racist, which seems to be the suggestion about those who are booing taking the knee.

Around 40% of English fans polled recently were against taking the knee. More in Scotland. I'd be surprised if nearly half the fans in this country are racist. If they are, it must be fucking painful for them watching the game, such is its ethnic diversity these days.

People are always saying that the authorities should listen to the fans. Perhaps a compromise is needed, something all fans can get behind. But this is becoming a divisive issue, which is the exact opposite of what it needs to be.

Also, from the report you quote, which was heavily criticised as being ‘whitewashed’:

In the remaining 1,200 cases, ethnicity data was unknown for 38% of them. Where data was available 30% of offenders were White, while 28% were Asian.

Now compare this to the ethnic makeup of the UK in the 2011 census:
86% white, 7.5% Asian.

Thomas - that is a real issue. I live down the road from Rochdale and, when my daughters are old enough, I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?

Si - 247
Look at it this way.
You want racism eradicated
I want racism eradicated
The thing that makes us argue is the kneeling gestures and Black Lives Matter. That is the ‘shaking the glass’ analogy because, without that, we would work together to eradicate racism.

"But what we should equally not do in my view is say, 'nothing to see here, move on"

That wasnt said Kevin.
There were some substantial prison sentences handed out and rightly so.
Should have been longer imo.

Kevin 256,

" I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?"

It is a racist statement.
If you determine anyones actions or possible actions by the colour of thier skin it is obvious.

What you should be doing is warning your daughter about all groups of men, not just the Asian ones. Dangers around every corner and whilst according to the statistics a larger percentage of our Asian community may be more likely to be caught breaking the law, overall, statistically your daughters are more likely to suffer at the hands of white men. Sad but true.

I know it is tricky and I don't believe you to be inherently racist, what you have said would be classed as conscious bias. I genuinely would recommend diversity and unconscious bias training of some description if you can get on it. I find myself slipping up from time to time even now but at least I recognise it for what it is. It doesn't make me racist but shows that I do not to consider what I am saying before I open my mouth.

"so it would seem the concern is not about race, more about attitudes and practices existing within a culture"

Tiny proportion of wrongdoers sees all Pakistani and Bangladesh men fall into that category?

Also, my interest in Jordan Henderson has increased since I found that he is a marxist. That was news to me and might be to Jordan.

Just shows you never know.

Certainly the fight against racism especially in countries where there exists extremists group following doctrines of madmen from history who flourish even more today because of the darkweb must be continually protested against by decent people.

However whilst taking the knee was the start of an anti-racist protest in the US against bigotted police injustice I feel it is also the right of anyone to choose not to take the knee without criticism.

Injustice throughout the World and indeed history is felt by all people in some form or other and we have to acknowledge that ''all lives matter'' but as long as there are disfunctional political leaders many things won't change much

1) when my daughters are old enough, I would be very weary of them mixing with wholly Asian groups. Does that make me racist or a protective father?

2) Privileged coloured footballers don't have careers blighted by racism

3) That's what Marxists do, they cause blue murder, with the idea of causing a revolution.

Give em enough rope to hang themselves.

Some of these footballers aren't as daft as we think.

1,He will be fine if he keeps his daughters restricted to mixing with white people.
They don't get involved in sex crime.

2,They don't.
They do however have LIVES blighted by racism.

Would you
a) be concerned knowing that there have been issues in the past?
b) dismiss it for fear of sounding racist?

Steve - footballers are allowed to express their democratic right to self expression, but if someone uses their democratic right to self expression to oppose it then they are in the wrong? Explain what that isn’t completely hypocritical.

Consider the scenario…
There is a population of blue and green people (keeping it neutral). 15 murders are committed, 10 by blue people and 5 by green people. Therefore you are more likely to be murdered by a blue person?

However, there are a thousand blue people and only 20 green people in the population. Therefore only 1% of blue people are murderers whilst 25% of green people are.

Are you statistically more likely to be murdered by a blue or green person? Which colour person would you be more concerned with?

If a gang of ginger blokes committed these crimes I would expect people to be cautious of me. I wouldn’t cry for them to have training that has been consistently proven to be both worthless and counter productive.

Hope you take this in the spirit intended.

You have a problem.
Your pre conceived summation of a whole race of people will, if it hasn't already, poison your mind.

Experience has taught me that, in the absence of contrary data bespoke to any unknown Russian I encounter, the safest thing for me to do is to make a class judgement based on the stereotype. For example, I accidentally bumped my car wing mirror into a Russian guy's here in Riga not that long ago, so I did the British thing and smiled, apologised, offered to straighten it up, etc., only to be told, in unambiguous terms, to foxtrot oscar. That was a salient reminder to me that - generally speaking - Russians do not think like me, or share my Anglo social graces and I should have known better, but had dropped my guard and reverted into the "nice guy" reaction most Brits would have.

They have an exaggerated machismo to compensate for being mama's boys, my wife once suggested, offering a class judgement of her own, on her own tribe. I mentioned this to a Chinese lady I knew back home and she said this: "Chinese men are the same: mama's boys".

Meanwhile, all I hear every day on the Anglo media is that I am somehow privileged for being white and am therefore inherently evil and racist. Which reveals two things:

1. Non-Anglos feel at total liberty to speak whatever Marxist drivel they like about Anglos, safe from being called racist or bigoted because, apparently, only Anglos can be guilty of that.
2. Our Anglo establishment permits and positively encourages this because it is utterly lost to crypto communism... as predicted by the KGB defectors back in the day, like Anatoliy Golytsin.

Anyway, I think the main point here is this: people have the fundamental right, from the light of nature, to make class judgements about people from other cultures until such times as any given individual proves themselves the exception to the stereotype. Of course, even saying something as rational as that immediately gets me branded a Nazi by some, but that only highlights one of the grand maxims of our age: to be a leftist, one must deny reality at every turn.

Mr Farage has a spot on the top table waiting for you.

Aside from your cultural generalizations, with your vaccine conspiracy theories and Anglo Saxon bias, have you ever considered these Russians aren’t hostile by nature, they’re just hostile because you are you.

Kevin Pryterch

You’ve posted on race matters on here in the past. My interpretation is that you’re the racist and that’s an observation not an insult

Up to you how you want to deal with it, I still fall foul of it now and then.

Jay, I think a lot of the venom with which white people respond to being accused of white privilege is because we associate the term privilege with aristocracy and people with lots of money. The privilege is actually that being Anglo and white we don't have to suffer from racism, conscious or unconscious bias in order to get on in life and compete for jobs etc. As white and Anglo, most of us can't empathise with that as we have never been in that position. We don't have to like it, sometimes I don't, but I understand it.

Still based on your own theory I can consider you a racist who is crying out desperately for attention until you can prove me otherwise.

Didn’t Lord Haw Haw change his name to Richard Dodd and go to work as a Kenwright propagandist on ToffeeWeb?

Colin #285, the Latvians were among the most eager Nazi collaborators in WWII. 90% of Latvian Jews were killed under the Nazis, and about a third of those were actually slaughtered by the Latvians themselves, specifically a militia called Arajs Kommando. The attitude thrives today -- Riga still holds a large annual parade to honor the veterans and memory of the Latvian Legion, two Nazi SS regiments. It's a proud tradition.

What you say is true. But, we don’t want to follow Jay’s lead and cast aspersions on all Latvians. I had dealings with a center for deaf adults in Latvia about 20 years ago. Lovely good hearted folks. Plenty of fascists there no doubt, but some good folk also.

Lol I can’t imagine how I’d feel if there was a right wing extremist named Kieran Kinsellas.

Thomas 275 - I notice that, despite calling me out for being cautious of my daughters safety with a particular demographic group in the face of horrendous atrocities, you then fail to answer the question as to what you would do in the same situation. Is that because you know the answer would be the same as what I would do?

I would rather have a problem being cautious of a particular demographic than see my daughters be raped and impregnated against their will. Unfortunately, in this instance, I will also naturally be cautious of those who don’t deserve it. If these crimes were committed by another demographic, mine included, I would be naturally cautious about that. If you are a father then I would hope you would understand that.

No Kevin, I would be happy my daughter was mixing with a diverse group of friends. Showing a propensity to engage with other cultures without pre conceived mind set that if your an Asian you are dangerous.

From my experience if you stick your head above the bunker you’ll find that people are much of a muchness. You get good folks and wankers in every country regardless of skin color, ethnicity or religion. If you broaden your horizons mate, you’ll realize the one commonality is that we are all human.

Back in December when - very briefly - supporters were allowed back into stadiums, Milwall fans caused an uproar when they booed their players for taking the knee.

John Burns penned the following article asking the very question repeated in this thread. Should taking the knee continue?

The Booing of the Knee

It is fascinating to read back and see the names and arguments being made then and comparing them to their entries now.

My personal position remains unchanged. The same names who in December failed to convince me to convert to their views then have not offered anything new now.

And for those claiming taking the knee has not made a smidgen of difference or changed racist attitudes, you don't know that. The very fact that - yet again - an entire thread has become dedicated to the subject and is still drawing comments 5 days on is surely evidence that it HAS had an impact.

Because without that repeated act before hundreds of games across an entire season, this exchange simply doesn't happen.

I'll take that as a 'win' for the taking of the knee.

Small steps, 'n all that.

Jay #295, what the players say now about taking the knee is exactly what the NFL's Colin Kaepernick said about why he originated the gesture five years ago -- to silently protest against the outrage of racism and to inspire discussion of the issue. Athletes are still expressing themselves this way, and this expression is still inspiring discussion, so obviously the objective of taking the knee is still being successfully achieved. Whether it changes minds or not, the gesture is clearly keeping the issue front and center, exactly as intended -- so it is neither a failed gesture nor a futile one.

I also knocked a wing mirror in England. The Anglo, using his social graces, also told me to foxtrot oscar. Conclusion…

Dec 2020 - The Booing of the Knee

June 2021 - The Unlikely Marxist Takeover of English Football

Thomas - I hope you’re not a father because, if you honestly would not be cautious in that situation then I would fear for your kids safety.

Mine are fine thank you, wonderful people.
All blessed with good ability to judge a fellow human being by their character not the colour of thier skin.

I encouraged them to mix with diverse cultures from an early age.
The result of that is they are all well rounded, not frightened or nervous when a person from another culture is near.

There is also an alternative way to bring your children up of course.

Thousands?
One is too many of course but accuracy required.

My point is.
Muslim does not equal rapist.
Is EVERY muslim who lives in that community dangerous?

This thread started on a footy forum, traveled to speakers corner in Hyde park then ended up in the baggy.

I don’t know where you got your figures but they look like they may have come from a report in 2011. The Home office report is from 2020 and is based on a review of previous available information. The report shows that group based sexual exploitation offenders are most commonly white.

Some studies suggest an over representation of black and Asian offenders due to ‘’date quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies and the potential for biases and inaccuracies in the way that date ethnicity is collected’’…’’ it is not possible to conclude that this is representative of all group based CSE offending.’’

Nazir Afal the former prosecutor of the Rochdale gangs welcomed the report which confirmed that ‘white men remain the most common offenders’’ and that ’’by focusing entirely on the ethnicity of the offender, we miss the bigger picture which is how the unheard, the left behind women and girls are invariably the victims’’.

Some of the survivors of abuse in Rochdale initially received support from the English Defence League and the British National Party. When survivors reported that they had also been abused by gangs of white men the EDL and BNP turned against them because they did not want to know this unwelcome fact. It is also true that some of the abused supported EDL and BNP initiatives.

The EDL and BNP concentrate on the disproportionate number of Asian men involved in these crimes because it suits their divisive racist agenda. If you are happy being in bed with fascists then ‘’each to their own’’.

As a Dad myself I recognise the desire to protect my daughter. As you live near Rochdale your fear of Asian gangs in that area has a basis in reality. Unfortunately in generalising that fear to an entire community you are creating racial stereotypes that further inflame division.

The thread was not highjacked it started because the thread opening report was silent on the booing which accompanied taking the knee and which had received widespread media attention.

It had degenerated into the usual rinse and repeat cycle of slagging off the redshite ignoring that Southgate and one such redshite had said something important about challenging racism. That sparked the discussion bringing the two faces of football together.

It’s demeaning and a bit ironic that a poster who spends a lot of time and energy slagging off other posters and talking about betting can’t expend the same energy on the discussion above. The thread shows that football and politics are in the wash together.

My head is spinning now - off to the euros!

You should know by now that these sorts of off piste threads are very common on TW and indeed one of its strengths.

All praise to Michael and Lyndon for allowing that. They obviously accept the validity of the debate as they haven't stepped in to suppress it or close the thread which is now 6 days in since it moved almost exclusively to a debate on racism and the validity or not of footballers continuing to take the knee.

As always it has been very educational and I for one love TW all the more for such moments as these.

My prediction is that some English supporters will boo their own side even before a ball has been kicked at Wembley stadium.

The booing will be followed by another section of the crowd applauding. And that's because the England players will have taken the knee.

They will have shown their support for Black Lives Matter (BLM) and, therefore, they are against racism. So it follows logically that those who boo must be sympathetic to racism.

It's easy to paint a picture of them. Drunken louts with more tattoos than brain cells whose views shame us all. And, yes, they exist.

We know because we've seen them at their most repellent — usually doing their pathetic best to turn peaceful demonstrations into riots.

But there will be many in that stadium who will not boo. Nor will they applaud.

They will have been as horrified as the rest of us at the slow, agonising murder of a black man at the hands of a white policeman in the United States a year ago.

They will have perfectly good relationships with people who have skin of a different colour. Some will marry them. Some will neither notice the colour difference nor care about it. They believe that we are all the same under the skin.

So why won't they applaud the knee-takers?

I suspect that many resent being forced to prove that they are decent human beings who don't have a racist bone in their bodies. They resent having to answer the 'are you with us or against us?' challenge. And why should they?

Quite simply because they believe the way they lead their lives answers that question for them. They want to be judged by their deeds and not their words.

There's something else, too.

They suspect that taking the knee is more about showing support for the organisation behind the gesture than it is about showing respect for people with black skin.

They do not want to support BLM, a movement with its roots in America whose founders have admitted they want to destroy capitalism and defund the police.

They reject the idea that racism is the only legitimate prism through which we should see the world. They don't like seeing statues being pulled down, buildings renamed, heroes shamed and feeling they should apologise for having a white skin.

They don't like being told: if you're with us you should applaud those who take the knee. If you're not with us you are a racist. They're pretty good at spotting virtue signalling when they see it and it makes them very uneasy.

So they don't applaud and they don't boo. Instead, they just try to get on with their lives. What makes them uneasy is what they see as extremism.

Like Zaha?

Deep, deep inside, watching footballers taking the knee pisses me off. Makes me feel resentful. So.. It's not a futile gesture.

Amen, brother.