Should Everton make a move for John Stones?

Absolutely not.

Patric,

I can't believe you forgot to mention front and centre the only criterion that matters...

John Stones has loads of experience, is Premier League ready, and would instantly become one of Moyes's favoured favourites.

Sadly, nothing else really matters.

He's a world class centre-back.

If his wages aren't crazy, I'd be tempted to give him a couple of years. If we got 25 games a season, that would be a big win.

Reading an article from, he has been at City for 10 years and says Manchester is his home and intends to stay living there.

So maybe not going abroad?

I would like Everton to go for Ake, who could play in a number of positions at the back. He is 31, but still has a lot of mileage in him.

Yes, no-brainer if wages are doable.

He'll form a good partnership with Branthwaite...

Keeping our physios busy!

I hoped the days of being a retirement home for ex-players had gone.

Does any other club go in for this sentiment?

Absolutely not. But he is a typical Moyes signing.

Premier League experience, still a quality defender when he is fit, and available on the cheap.

Exactly the type of player Moyes will look for as we progress to regular appearances in the Top 10. Which, according to Defensive Dave, will be the best we can hope for.

Yes, absolutely! To keep the physios busy!

Annika @8,

Available on the cheap.

Stones currently earns £250k per week at Man City. While he might take a slight cut to join Everton, he would still expect to be the club's highest earner, surpassing the £150k+ bracket.

And as a free agent with no transfer fee (his market value is roughly £12M), a significant portion of any "savings" in salary is typically paid directly to the player as a one-off bonus and he is likely to want a 3-year contract.

So, er... I guess "cheap" is somewhat relative?

I would say No. Man City don't let good players leave and he is past his sell-by date.

David Moyes on the other hand will see him as his favourite player, old, past his prime with lots of experience.

There must be better prospects around, younger that can form a central defence with Branthwaite if he ever stays fit, plus his wage structure will be more than he is worth.

We need a central partnership of younger players with better full-backs being the priority.

He could make his Everton debut under Moyes 13½ years after Moyes signed him!

Interesting one.

Presumably will take a wage cut, so at £150k per week would cost circa £15M over 2 years.

Cheap in terms of experience but, in terms of injury and age, is it worth the risk…??

Very injury prone and on the wrong side of 30 but still a class player. Provided he doesn't demand ridiculous wages and a lengthy contract, he might be worth buying.

Personally, I would rather see the club carry on looking for younger options than him, however good he may still be.

There's other clubs interested:

5 possibles

Yahoo Sports

I would take him.

He's a talented footballer, and if you want to play better football, you need the technicians to do it.

If I was Liverpool, I'd be taking him on a free all day long, like they did with Milner.

Anyone screwing up your face needs their head testing: he is a Top 4 defender. Keane, Tarkowski, O'Brien and Mykolenko aren't. We can bitch and moan about his age and injuries, but if he was 25, he wouldn't be coming to Everton.

Look at the transformation Garner, Dewsbury-Hall, and Branthwaite make when you inject quality into the side.

Good player but injury prone,so it's a no from me.

A definite No.

We worry about Branthwaite's injury record, Stones in his early 30s has played 7 Premier League games for Man City this season, a total waste of wages.

We paid City £8.5M for Delph a few years ago with an identical injury record, look how that worked out!!!

Stones and Souchk. Our 2 new signings.

Christy, he has been an unused sub in 12 of those league games.

He has played 16 games this season, and was an used sub in a further 16 games. His availability is 32 games.

You need to look through the numbers in my opinion.

It's a definite no for me.

As he is aging, he is getting slower and with his type of game is more likely to get caught on the ball.

Was a quality footballer but never a great centreback. Surrounded by the world's top players he does ok but I do not believe for one minute he would not be a liability for us and given his injury record and absurd wages it's a nonstarter.

No.

Very good player.
But very injury prone, and his age also not a positive.
Also his wages could be used for someone more eligible.

Summa sumarium is no.

Nooooooo, wake up from your slumber people; it's time to move onwards and upwards.

No! 31 yrs old and today quoted saying "'I lived all my dreams'.

Umm.

Stones is exactly the type of player Chelsea need.

Was a great player
Absolutely no

No. Just no.

There's so much younger talent out there, and even at his best and healthiest Stones was never a premium-quality defender, in the air or on the ground.

Very good player, but injury record is a huge concern. So no.

Mike 27

He didn't have to be, City have the ball for the majority of the game.

Bit unfair that tbh Mike.
Class oozes out of him until he stopped being a regular starter Imo.
Probably not a Moyes type.

Óscar Mingueza £18m, Age 26, RB/LB ( equally adept ), 4 caps for Spain, came though Barca Youth system before signing for Celta Vigo. Has also played CB 80 times. Played 78 games last two seasons. Career, 263 games, 9 goals and 24 assists. No mug and on a free come July 2026. Just what we need. Would release Jake to play as a permanent CB.
Stones is a no from me. If he was up to playing Pep would play him but he's hardly ever 100% fit. Hes' quality but we need that quality on the pitch not the treatment table. There are a lot of other international defenders, on a free transfer this summer, we need to look further than John Stones.

No. Wages x injury record = no

No for me - not unless he will take a massive pay cut and guarantee us he will do a calvert lewin !

Transfermarket showing Mykolenko's contract, as now ending in June 2027. Has it been extended ?

A LB on a Free in July 26, is Souffian El Karouani, Morocco International, Age 25, He is an attacking LB with 24 assists across last two season for Utrecht. Aznou could go the opposite way on loan and come back with more experience. After all, playing in the Netherlands didn't do Branthwaite any harm did it ?

If we as a club are to be ambitious, drive forward and become successful we certainly should not be looking to recruit ex players (or those that were previously appointed by Moyes elsewhere).
Stones looked a great player in a very classy Manchester City side, when he was young, fit and complemented by their skills.
Appointing him to our playing staff would further compound our awful, grinding, stale football under Moyes. We don’t seek to entertain, and under Moyes I’m quite convinced that we never will. Stones wont have the fitness, tactical guidance or be given the strategy to be successful by Moyes.
I’d like TFG to vacate Moyes’ position and actually look to make us a side that challenges. Ambitious, yes, but we shouldn’t be dragged through season after season of Moyes uninspiring and dire ‘strategy’. He is poor, and any time we see a player linked to us you can bet it will be one of Moyes ex players (Everton #1, Man Utd, West Ham) who is past his best, but could ‘do a job for us’.
All that means is maintain the negative status quo installed under Moyes.
Stones should be a firm no. An inspiring future should be a firm yes, and I hope TFG can see that.
Moyes has ‘stabilised’ us, yes but we are barely further up the table in terms of points than under Dyche. I’m deeply disappointed every time Moyes is linked to a player - past their prime, but ‘good enough for us’. We don’t need to see that week after week.

I sincerely hope that TFG can Make Everton Great Again, but that can’t be with Moyes.

2# Michael

Very true! Hahah fgs David!

If we as a club are to be ambitious, drive forward...
Then we should never Make Everton Ginger Again.

See what I did there?

Let's stop the foolish rhetorical taunts.

I read the headline and had a bet with myself that Ian Bennett aka Ian Moyes would say yes to this ridiculous idea. Moyes would take him all day long and that's why we are stagnating as a club. We should stop being a nursing home for other clubs has-beens. It's a massive no from me to a player who is clearly past his prime, injury-prone and who has realised his dreams elsewhere. Ian, sort your head out

#36

I’ve seen constant rhetoric on here trying to persuade that Moyes is as good as we can hope for. It’s plainly not the case, and yes, we’d be foolish to stand by it, or those that preach the message. We are taunted by Moyes lack of foresight and strategic vision week after week.

Ian#20 Ian which part of Stones started 4 Premiership games and came on in 3 games, a total of 7 games this season, did I get wrong. That's his Premiership stats 25/26.

Mark,

Simple question - tell me Tarkowski, Obrien or Keane is a better player than Stones?

Moyes signed him first time around ?

Do a little research and find out just how little he had to do with Stones coming to Everton

Don’t believe everything we read in the papers, has now been replaced by don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

I try not to but I’ve just had a flashback to when Moyes, used to try and take players off Man Utd, with the difference now being that he wants to take players from Man City.

Grealish, Stones and even Nathan Ake, has just had another mention on one web page, and then you cast your mind back to Sunderland, when they got relegated under the same manager, with a few Everton cast-offs.

Experience over youth? every day of the week, and especially on a match day. Hopefully it’s just click bait nonsense.

Did he play in The Prem under Moyes management Darren?

Ian 40.

Branthwaite is better than all of them.
Hopefully we can bring a centre half in with good pace to partner him.

That wasn't the question.

John I know for a fact that Moyes needed his arm twisted up his back to sign Stones. He hadnt seen him play, but he relented and gave in to pressure to sign him, but he had nothing to do with negotations. He didnt even know how much we paid for him. year's later he tried to claim the credit for the transfer and bragged we got him for less that we did - "I laugh when people say we paid 3m for John. it was 1.25m"

The Barnsley chairman slaughtered him in public saying Moyes played no part in any of the negotiations and didnt have a scooby what he was talking about,

Quite embarrassing for him really

Ian, for most of this season, Stones has been unavailable and so I would have selected Tarkowski, O'Brien or Keane ahead of Stones. Next season, wherever he lands, he'll be behind those 3 because he'll be injured once again.

The question is not that of "On his day, who is the better player?" Moreover, it is "Should we sign him?"

You say Yes because he's a better player when fit; and I say No because he is past his prime and injury-prone.

If I was advising the board, I'd say "Spend the money elsewhere on a younger fitter prospect." But Moyes and you would say "We don't like young and hungry -- we prefer old, ploddy, sometimes reliable, albeit often injured." It makes no sense to buy him.

Darren,

He's the manager, he signs off on the players. If his team tell him to sign someone, and he decides to, and they turn out great, he gets. the credit.

For having a great team. it's his ass in a sling if it doesn't work out, so he gets the credit when it works out.

No. He's missed so many games over the years it's difficult to judge how good he was.

Whatever the answer to that, it's difficult to imagine that, at the age of 32, he will suddenly become injury-free.

Everton almost missed out on John Stones — because David Moyes's coaching staff didn't rate him

Darren is right, Chief Scout Henry recommended him and pipped Wigan, managed by Martinez. Martinez also talks about losing out and being reunited fairly soon.

I'd followed the story, as I was always interested when Moyes had been truly tapped up by Man Utd and when Martinez had actually got the job, with that quarter-final thrown into the mix. The Stones transfer providing a definititve date.

A couple of gaps to Darren's story.

“‘Do you want him?' he said. It was only then that David went: ‘Right, okay, we will go for it'. The others were shaking their heads because they didn't want him.”

It seemed he backed his Chief Scout, in opposition to the rest of the coaching team -- rather than folding to the pressure as Darren claims.

“David always used to say to me that as well as looking for first-team players, look out for the best young players,” the 57-year-old said.

There you go, Mark. A quote for you too.

As I posted previously, Stones has been involved in 32 matchday squads. That isn't being unavailable for most of the season as you claim.

The same was said of Grealish in the summer. He'd played most of this season prior to a foot injury that could rule out any player.

Aside from Stones's injury record, there seems to be a universal law that whenever we're linked with anyone over 30, immediately it's “He's well past it, another club's reject, a hand-me-down, practically due for a telegram from the King!”

Next, they'll be fitting stairlifts at the training ground and dishing out Werther's Originals and cups of tea at half-time, while the physio leads a gentle chair yoga session.

All this, meanwhile, the Champions League quarterfinals were crawling with youthful whippersnappers like Antoine Griezmann (35), Koke (34), Robert Lewandowski (37 – rumour has it he remembers when offside was invented), Marquinhos (32), Dani Carvajal (33), David Alaba (33), Antonio Rüdiger (33), and Harry Kane (32).

Honestly, I don't know how these clubs manage with such a geriatric mob – perhaps they're powered by Deep Heat rub!

I can't see the point of assembling The A Team of recruiting, if we are going to get players from click-bait websites.

I am expecting — with what is lauded by the club, as individuals with skill sets that make Einstein seem like Katie Price — to recruit 3 or 4 unknowns that will be regarded as World Class by half time of the season's opener.

At least!

John #52,

You'll love it when the plan comes together.

Ian #50


Are you suggesting that Moyes to United and Martinez to Everton were basically done deals at the time Stones joined Everton?

Ian 45

I know.
Its the answer though.

“David always used to say to me that as well as looking for first-team players, look out for the best young players,” the 57-year-old said.

When did he give that theory up ?

I heard the story about the meeting discussing John Stones from somebody who was at it - No I wont say who...Tony Henry is taking too much credit - A bit like Moyes has tried to do ever since.
Moyes was publicly slapped down by Barnsley in a club statement which read - "It is incumbent of Barnsley FC to correct such a statement when it is markedly and unequivocally wrong. This is particularly the case since he has cited the same erroneous fee on previous occasions.
Davey Moyes played no part in any negotiation with Barnsley FC concerning the transfer of John Stones, which may explain why he is mistaken as to the fee paid"

Moyes's had not openly claimed the signing was his. He also claimed he got him for less than we actually paid. Those who attended the meeting were secretly delighted that he had been exposed as a complete Kelly Maloney

Moyes was put under pressure and it wasnt just Tony Henry who was putting the pressure on

Edit button - sigh

I don't Brendan.

Ive read nothing to suggest they were done deals when Stones signed in the January.

I was just curious if we had been lied to.

Haha, Didnt know the price tag?

Gees Darren, Carlo didn't know the left backs name.

Who, who.

Did Carlo sign the left back?
Ian, you counter most critics of Moyes with a similar reply.

Can I ask you a couple of questions.

1,Are you happy with the football you have watched at Bramley Moore this season?

2,Do you think Moyes will improve the standard of football next season?
If so, why?

John Stones was involved in 178 games for Man City in 10 years -- that probably averages about 20 games a season since we sold him.

This is a big no-no but we all know Moyes will not look at the big picture.

I've said Everton fans need to know what the future plans are from our owners. We need some serious noises... but yet we never seem to get a mention, which Moyes will be happy with.

Mundane Moyes IMO would be interested in Stones providing Stones took the barmy decision to massively reduce his obscene salary (all salaries in the EPL are obscene BTW).

Anyway, as several others propose above, there must be younger, cheaper, fitter talented our there but just why are our scouts/managers/owners perennially failing to match other so called "lesser" EPL clubs in signing hitherto unknowns who very quickly show they have enough class to notably improve the status of their new club, their own transfer value and obscene salary, and the happiness of their fans?

I see the headline and jsut wonder why we areinterested in an injury prone ex-player who as far as I can see has shown no inclination for a Blue rturn. If he wants money, somewhere on the continent or in Saudi will see him as ideal cndidate and he would see a big pay out. I can not see what he will bring to EFC above others!

Talking of so called injury prone players, why has the talk of a retrurn for Richarlison who seems less prone after the departure of Ange and his suspect fitness methods. He has played 28 PL games, scored 9 goals plus four assists and is not just an out out so called striker like Beto (33-8-10) or Barry (34-6-0). He clearly wants to play and get his Brazil place back and his motivation and commitment to EFC is considerable.

No, he's injury-prone. Great when healthy. But too much of a gamble.

How interesting that the only two - it might be three - posters on this thread who are backing this move are our most vocal Moyes Moyes Moyes voices: namely, messers Molloy and an especially animated Bennett.

It is a definite no for me. There are better options out there - for example Senesei on a free.

Sam #51, the difference is that those elder statesmen are on the world's top clubs and surrounded by world-class younger talent.

Senior strikers like Kane, Greizmann and Lewandowski are free to deploy their supreme skills at moments of opportunity without having responsibility for pressing, closing down and other energy-draining tasks. Building clubs like ours don't have that luxury.

Likewise, still-imposing senior defenders like Marquinhos and Alaba and Rudiger are partnered with younger blazers like Militao and Pacho. We don't have that luxury either.

Isn't Stones one of those 'play it out from the back' defenders?

Doesn't sound like a Moyes type then unless tactics are going to change next season.

I'll ask again, has Mykolenko's contract been extended to 2027 ? TMkt states it ends 2027 and not this summer.

An Expensive longterm contract for over 30+ yr old player with potentially a very limited shelf life.?

NO, we should not go for Stones - or Soucek or Grealish either

This is Moyeses quick fix, short termism writ large.

Jack #71, nobody knows.

Multiple media outlets have reported the club's intent to trigger the one-year option, but the club has made no announcement about doing so.

Ian,

Anyone who has been here a while will know I am not a fan of Carlo (at least not Carlo the Everton manager) but, when Ben Godfrey was putting in some impressive performances for him, he had the good grace and the honesty to admit he had never even heard of him before he got here.

Moyes on the other hand tried to take the credit for a signing of a player he hadn't heard of... but only after he had attracted interest from the wider football community.

See a difference?

Soucek,
McGinn.
Etc etc.

Darren, does it matter if Moyes had never heard of Stones before we bought him?

Probably lots of managers haven't heard of players their recruitment team sign. And how long ago are you going back?

Bill #11 "Man City don't let good players leave."

Erm, Cole Palmer?

Just saying! :-)

Sorry Martin, you're wrong, mate.

Palmer is very good -- not 'good'.

No. Don't want him back.

We need a younger squad with ambitions -- not older has-beens. Esteve from Burnley, or Harwood-Bellis from Southampton.

John @62,

I've been as frustrated as everyone else. But I am realistic enough to believe that we don't have a squad to play anyone off the park, and we don't have enough goals in us.

The margins are fine in the Premier League, and like many a side, you can only go so far with organisation and work rate. The other side doesn't lie down for anyone.

Some of the players aren't good enough. On another post, the writer lists nine players to leave, and then there are still players that no Top 6 club would go anywhere near. That should give you an understanding of where we are as a club.

That leaves the conundrum. We need to turn the squad around, but you can't go into a transfer window looking for 10+ players and expect them to all work out.

I'd hope the performances and results improve next season. Last summer's signings will produce more, and I'd hope for a better transfer window to improve the quality.

There is an impatience, and I get it. But I'd probably choose a less radical approach of signing 5 good players who will make a tangible difference in frees, loans and transfers.

Noooooooooo,thanks

I keep reading on here how crap the football is at Everton... Some may be correct, but do these people watch other games, eg, on TV?

I have watched a number of games recently and the football I was watching was no better than watching Everton.

The Burnley v Man City game was dreadful... Arsenal v Newcastle no better. Man Utd v Brentford, I ended up, turning it off. I could go on...

The difference of winning more points or losing is the amount of millions of pounds worth of subs you can bring on; Everton don't have that luxury and probably never will.

nSimple answer is No; we already have 4 centre-backs... what's the point of getting another past his sell-by date?

This club needs goal-scorers, not centre-backs so whatever money we have should be spent on goal-scorers.

Brian - do you rate Branthwaite on the ball? Can you see that his quality on the ball, can he give the midfielders quicker, better ball in the right areas?

Do you think Tarkowski, Keane or O'Brien offer that? These guys have so much of the ball, it is vital you have someone who knows how to use it.

After Garner, I think it is the most important position on the pitch in terms of how a team actually plays. Look at the best teams, and ask yourself how many have pub league centre-backs?

Do our strikers regularly miss chances, or are they starved of service? For me, it is the latter. With the quality we have, any striker would be fed on scraps & set up to fail, even if they'd come.

Yes to a Stones, no to Stones!

Got it??

Ian there is obviously a concern over Branthwaites ability to play 30 odd games, something he has struggled to do the last couple of seasons. But I think he is the best young CB in the Premier league and will only get better with age if injuries don't keep impeding his progress.

Ian you ask the question do our strikers regularly miss chances or are they starved of service, good question and I am sure many will agree about the service, but I just think none of our front 3 are what I call natural goal scorers. I think most agree we need a serious up grade on Beto but given the choice of who to keep between Beto and Barry its Beto all day long. But as a joy to watch as Ndaiye is he just doesnt score enough goals and the same can be said of Grealish and McNeil. Getting back to the question of service well I think in Garner and Dewsbury Hall we have 2 very good centre midfield players. Gana has been a great servant but maybe drop Garner into his role and bring in the likes of Wilson from Fulham or I would love Bowen from West Ham.

Ian 80,

The style of football won't change even with new signings, it's what he does.

He took over the league champions and dropped the goals scored total from 86 in Fergie's last season to 64 in Moyes's one season.

It's his modus operandi.

Italy would suit Stones’s game at this stage of his career.

The biggest problem we've had this season is breaking down teams at home. Stones would be a huge improvement in our ability to make home advantage count.

Keeping the ball moving intelligently is what wears down these teams. the questions are: Does Moyes want him? Would he come? and Can we keep him fit?

He's not a great centre-back defensively but perfectly adequate for our purposes, and the difference he would make to us going forward would be huge. It would be like having Alan Hansen back there.

No.

Wages will be an issue.

Injury record a bigger issue.

...and he doesn't play right or left back. When will we learn?

No. we need to move forward not backward.
Too injury prone and sadly his age will not aid recovery or playing time.

Mike #69,

Totally fair point — those lads benefit massively from being surrounded by elite young runners who let them pick their moments. I'm with you on that.

My only point was that, even in those stacked squads, the over‑30s aren't just passengers. They're central to how those teams function — the calm heads, the decision‑makers, the ones who win you big moments. Age doesn't automatically make a player a liability; in the right role, it can be part of the reason a team succeeds.

I consider Gareth Barry to be another very good player let go by Citeh well before his expiry date.

Ideally I’d prefer a younger player with no injury record but generally we are still a club who has to take some gambles when it comes to bringing in players. I don’t see John Stones as an out and out first choice option but he does offer something different to the likes of Keane and Tarkowski (and O’Brien although I am hopeful he still has some improvement to come), and perhaps even enabling a formation change.

There are a lot of things that would have to suit the club to make it a worthwhile move and I would hope some sort of pay-as-you play could be worked out.

A lot depends on what the player is actually interested in. Perhaps he really doesn’t fancy a move abroad (or even anything that would take him from where he is settled and secure) and perhaps he is happy to be supporting-cast rather than the ‘main man’? Perhaps the money is secondary to all the other things he feels he must safeguard? He would still need to have the desire to give it his all when he is needed to perform.

It’s a move I wouldn’t object to if the conditions were right.

Mike @73. Thanks for that.

I doubt he would have said Yes if he wasn't going to be first choice left-back.

It's a No from me.

Our number one priority signing should be a proper right-back and then move Jake O'Brien back to his preferred and best position at centre-back.

Brian #83, two of those centre backs are old and their contracts are up next season, assuming Tarkowski gets an extension as his finishes next month. Branthwaite is possibly an injury concern.

So that's two centre backs we definitely need, hopefully upgrades on what we have so Keane and Tarkowski can be back ups, and a back up for Branthwaite.

That kicks the can down the road for another season when we possibly need one or two more centre backs to repace Keane and Tarkowski.

Oops, getting Tarkowski and Mykolenko mixed up, Tarkowski's contract runs to 2028.

So we only need two centre-backs, and a left-back and right-back.

Kevin (89): you might be satisfied by 'perfectly adequate' players coming to the club (the manager, after all, could be called 'perfectly adequate'), but I for one am most certainly not.

Shall we make a move for X? Is he 'perfectly adequate'. He is. Go out and get him.

I think that we need more than 'perfectly adequate' to move up the table.

There is a chance, a good chance actually, that in his first full season Moyes will end up finishing below where we finished last season. Is this the improvement you keep speaking of Kevin? Would you call this 'perfectly adequate'?

I’m going to close down comments until we sorted things out sorry folks

This is what I feared with Moyes.

A team loaded with players at the end of their career, injury prone and on big money.

Okay, let's see if things are working a little better now.

I've turned the comments back on.

Paul, we can't sign world class players across the board. We need a range of signings because we re operating to a budget. So picking up a player of Stones quality as a free transfer is not something we should dismiss because he's not the greatest defender.

We have a number of differing critieria for our signings. and there are a number of qualities which make Stones a good option. Free transfer, superb on the ball, knows the club, vastly experienced. he's also a 'perfectly adequate' defender for our purposes.

Looks like things are back to before the latest line-break glitches.

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Wages an issue. Injury record an issue. Need a right-back and a left-back.

Pass.

No to Stones
No to Soucek
No to McGinn

No to any other good old pro Moyes wants to bring in to enhance just not being good enough.

No to Moyes.

I'd actually take McGinn for a couple of seasons.

Good response, Kevin. Makes sense to me.

One thing I feel is that this would be a very Moyes signing.

Thanks.

Crikey, there's a few folks getting worked up over a transfer rumour that isn't even a proper transfer rumour yet!

Anyway for me it's obviously a No. Too old, injury prone, retirement home etc. We've already got one ball-playing centre-back who gets injured all the time, we don't need another.

If we were to sign him, then that's TFG's transfer strategy up the swanny. I don't see it.

And the big one, Jimmy, as with Grealish: wages and PSR.

No.

I'd sooner try for Nathan Ake who could also play right-back.

We can't have Stones and Tarkowski in the same team.