What are your thoughts on the team that beat Man Utd, then? (The team that had Neville, Osman, Hibbert in it?). Funny you weren't on here mouthing off then.

It was a bad result, but WBA are and will be no push over at home this season. It is fans who maintain this ludicrous attitude of yours that are suffering, from dillusions.

Moyes did make a mistake, but you really do go over the top. Get a grip lad.

I was hoping that Moyes had had an epiphany and realised that you win games by scoring more goals than your opposition. Then we lose Gibson and he reverts to form. Negative bollocks. Surely drop Felli back and bring on Mirrallas. Everyone apart from Moyes could see that!

He was on here after that game...saying he thought we'd finish 4th.

Best line this season mate, well done.

Whilst recognising the signs I haven't quite said Moysies road to Damascus has become a ring road ..... yet!

Getting soft in me old age.

Also, from what I've seen, Ossie has been one of our better players so far. He hasn't had bad game.

We didn't roll over for West Brom. We were probably slightly the better team before we lost Gibson.

I think I agree with not putting Neville in midfield but they've spent all week in training playing with Fellaini up front and it would have been strange to change it after 20 minutes.

Coleman at right back? Have you seen him?

Good start - lost Gibson - Fellaini should have dropped back - Mirallas on - attack - win - 3 away points

who would have disagreed?

Other things cloud the simple sense in that.

To be honest I don't think any moyes supporters or detractors can really make a judgement on the season based on just the first 3 games. We had a bad day at the office and moyes made some wrong decisions - which to be fair to him he admitted to.

I have criticised the guy many times in the past but am willing to accept the west brom result as a bad day in the office. Most people would agree that it may have been better to pull fellaini back for gibbo and put someone else on, probably coleman on the right and naismith behind jelly, I don't think mirralas would have had enough in the tank to last 75 mins.

We had an excellent result in the first two games and yes, had you offered me 6 points from the first 3 games at the start of the season I would have taken them (would have settled for 5 tbh). Whats key now is what moyes will do in the future when gibbo is out again (which will happen). Hopefully Vadis can do the job or the hair comes back. Neville (and Heitinga) in CM really needs to stop.

Bit unfair to ossie, other players had a worse game than him on the weekend imo. Also West Brom are a decent side and had Fellaini not missed that open goal, it may have been a different story.

Lets just give it a few more games....

#642 still stands!

Neville should never ever again play in centre-mid: nothing to question there for me at any rate. Osman, lightweight, ought not to be in starting 11 (and now no longer needs to be in the starting 11 given the gaffer's top-notch window display), goes missing: ditto.

The right back thorn in the side, Neville, Hibbo, Coleman not up to par but what else can we do (can Garbutt switch and play there?), might be worth a punt on Coleman if our for the most part defence trained coaches get down to work on him: again, not much there for me to disagree about.

Gibson/Neville/Hibbert at the baggies place: I'm not going to shoot poisoned arrows at Marshey on this one, despite the case that has been made for continuity on the pitch/tactics, because there were better and more fluent options. Distin and Jags both had bad days in the office on Saturday - hang on, thats way too polite, they were both shite - and why oh why Moyes is JH on the bench: agree 100 per cent.

All in all, it seems to me, that the sense in this post is drowned by the "Oh it's him again" rant. This is pathetic: "Funny how you turn up now, Tony!" TM was on here a week or so ago spinning positively in upbeat tones. Now, I don't agree that the feel-good factors has vanished into the ether, but I don't question TM's right to convey that and to tell us how he feels.

I don't think that we did cave in against the baggies. Nor do I feel that this marks a return to Moyes's dour and dreary dog-days (though I'm on blue alert and a tad worried). But the Gibbo sub made it much harder for us to win the game. Good news TM: the 60 minute sub, would we have seen that in last year's bleak early winter?

In the middle of this post there are comments and observations that boat-loads of Evertonians will take on board because there are accuracies in them. TM does seem to rattle cages, but inside the frenzied gloss/rhetoric there are some pearls of wisdom.

This is also pathetic (and syntax please): "He was on here after that game... saying he thought we'd finish 4th." So fucking what? He's not allowed to change his mind FFS? I can't bear the "Where were you when we were doing this?" line. Like Dean above this post/poster is too knee-jerkish for me, but to call the overall post/attitude 'ludicrous' is a tad unfair.

Like Marsh, I wish that the Bermuda trio did not have such a high place in Moysey's mind. Not to denigrate any one of them, but the only thing I can stomach there, if it has to happen, is Neville at right-back for the short term. We've done well in mid and attack these last windows. We now must buy a right back and a new goalie not as back up but to take the place of Timmy when he looks yet again like a gormless flagging tit as he did for that goal.

Keep up the good work TM.

Losing Gibson was a blow in that the only real option was to pull back the influential Fellaini. Perhaps Moyes could have gone with a more influential/fit Coleman at right back to balance out the negativity of Neville for Gibson, behind a disciplined Naismith?

No doubt normal toffeeweb conflict has been restored after the west brom defeat. Still early days but I have a feeling we will be better off after 10 games this season then we have been for the last couple. Doesn't say that much though...

Good to have you back on top form. Your posts are either insightful or full of wild eyed ramblings and sometimes both. You are right that Gibsons injury unbalanced the team by moving Neville into midfield, always a mistake I would say. Your assessement of Osmans performance is neither rational or accurate he was one of the few players to retain possession and play reasonably for the whole game, did you watch the game? Save your ire for Pienaar and Baines who were dreadful throughout and Fellani who got frustrated and reverted to making daft challenges.

I can't disagree with the observation that having lost Gibson, the only player available to us to do that job was Fellaini. And putting him there should have been the priority. Neville should have stayed at RB.

At Goodison vs ManU Fellaini didn't play 'up'. He played box to box. Which is why we fought as hard as we did, and we won. Sometimes things get over-simplified.

I thought you had become one with Doddy following your last post but I guess you dropped him again.

Totally agree with Keith Glazzard #651.

It is too early for a knee jerk one way or the other but I agree his substitutions left a bit to be desired on Saturday.

Toffeewebbers are easily startled by positive news but they'll be back soon and in greater numbers..

The Bermuda triangle? Really? Three of Everton's longest serving best players over the last decade. Why do you think they're always in the team? — because they're consistent and versatile. Osman and Hibbert were on the right flank v Man Utd and kept Nani, Young and Evra at bay, they let Odemwingie in once due to some confusion over who was playing where.

Hibbert was also unfit which Moyes has admitted and was his fault, none of this is the fault of the players. Osman has been a stand out performer in all three games, what has he done to deserve criticism? They're keeping people like Barkley out the team because, as we saw against Leyton Orient, Barkley cannot do the basics correctly yet; defensive position and ball retention are lacking from his game, not that anyone on here cares because he looks quick and can belt it in from 20 yards, no need to look at all the goals he'd give away.

Once again, if anything, the criticism has to go to those such as Fellaini as some people have pointed out who have gone from the sublime against Man Utd to the ridiculous against West Brom. For a player of his talent, that isn't good enough; for players like Baines and Pienaar, that performance wasn't good enough.

Good job Neville and Hibbert and Osman do play because it's clear that this Everton side can't function without a bit of leadership. Once Gibson went off, it all just fell apart and those are the sort of listless performances we've seen when the aforementioned three haven't been in the team in the past.

I remember a game against Fulham a few seasons back where we were in dire straits and Moyes just said that he packed his team with players he could trust and we ran out convincing winners. Toffeeweb's favourtie 11 of Hibbert Neville Osman and Cahill were all out in force and they got the job done against the Dempseys and Dembeles of this world.

Yes they're English and over 30 and their name might not look good on a fantasy football teamsheet but they have been the mainstay of our team for good reason and that is because they know how to get the basics done.

Hibbert had a great season last season, as did Osman, Neville was filling in for an injury, all to easy to point blame at these players who will perform any role. I'm sure if they were Belgian and cost £15 million then they could put in whatever performance they wanted, even if it was a gross misuse of their talent, and you'd be fawning all over them to forgive them.

If they were being tapped up by Man U then no amount of defensive lapses would matter just as long as they were bombing forward putting crosses in (or not, as the West Brom game proved for Baines). Maybe the next time we play Man Utd, we can have Coleman one-on-one vs Nani and Evra and we can have Barkley tracking Kagawa and picking up Rooney when he drops deep. I'm sure they wouldn't make any mistakes at all...

Or better yet, let's get some kid who has never played at a senior level and just chuck him into the team, he can't be any worse than players with decades of experience... I'm sure they could keep some of the world's best players at bay no problem.

Agree with pretty much most of what you say. It was easy to get carried away after a good transfer window and couple of good results however the warning signs were there in the last 15 min of the Villa game after Gibson went off we were were all at sea. We'd lost our cohesion and looked disjointed, all too often resorting to clearing our lines and gifting possession to the opposition and unable to string passes together with any consistency. Crucially, we lost our stranglehold in the middle of the park and everthing fell apart after that.

Many point out it's easy to be wise in hindsight but in truth the lessons shoud have been learnt from that game and wern't. When Gibson was forced to leave the field Moyes appeared to have no plan B. A team that had acquitted themselves pretty well up to that point progressively fell apart. The defence were afforded no protection and link up play to wide positions and the front men was either poor or non-existent as confidence crumbled. The substitutions made no sense, we couldn't get hold of the ball in the middle and yet we had one of the finest midfielders in the premiership playing upfront seemingly because it worked against the Mancs and Villa for 70 min. The problem was we wern't playing the Mancs or Villa we were playing WBA who had a very different game plan.

I think your quite justified in your criticism of Neville and Osman the fact is we were simply overrun in the middle of the park and thats where the game was lost. Both Neville and Osman are overly reliant on the efforts of others and to be brutally honest in most teams they'd be fringe players. It was a tactical disaster to have these two playing alongside each other in the engine room of the team.

As for Hibbert I've a little more sympathy though. I'd agree at times he can struggle and his positioning is at fault. however in this game there was little evidence of anyone providing cover ahead of him and when Naismith went off there was little if any. Coleman was the obvious choice to come on and play ahead of him given his pace and tenacity and his ability to actually make a tackle something our central midfield pairing had forgotten how to do and yet he was left on the bench, somewhat ironic given that he was awarded MothM in the midweek game but instead we had Anichebe introduced I'm still struggling to get may head around that one.

Given how the game progressed I would have thought Fellaini should have dropped back to play into the middle as he has proven he can do the work of two men at times and this would have compensated for the shortcomings of Osman with Miralas joining Jelavic upfront and Coleman wide right.

The question is, has Moyes learn't anything from this game? The answer - probably not, but I live in hope at least until the next time.

Also agree with Paul Columb #655. I also was sick to hear Moyes say that maybe we should have played for a nil-nil. For two reasons 1) that's what he felt was going for it! And 2) it implied that in future he will be MORE conservative! I'm sick at the thought of Moyes being more conservative!!

One thing I would like to see happen is Heitinga brought back in. To think we nearly sold him makes me very worried. He is twice the player of Jagielka or Distin who are capable but limited players. Without Gibson we need him even more to start playing from the back. We play better football with gibson and heitinga in the team and it doesn't take a genius to see why.

Please play either Hibbert Neville or Coleman at right back but neither on pitch at same time

Please play Osman in centre mid or out wide in a midfield 5.

Please play Junior or, if signed Oje, as centre midfield particularly if Gibson injured. Do not play Neville or Heitinga there.

Please play Heitinga as centre back with another.

Please start Duffy in some games particularly at home.

We've started well – six points from nine across three tricky games. If we're over 10 after nine games, we'll be safe and more than this will give us a good platform for the rest of the season. I've no doubt where most of use see Everton heading. To cap it all, the money bags teams viewed as our rivals are having a mixed start compared to our small squad. There are grounds for optimism.

Really good to see the new tone of positive realism on this site. There are times when reading ToffeeWeb seems a lonely way to pass the time. More sanity please.

Paragraph 1: Ref: Moyes 'head-up arse' routine. I watched the game and thought we were playng OK for the first 20 minutes, and I assume Moyes saw the same. So when Gibson went off, he saw it as a like-for-like replacement putting Neville in there and Hibbo at right back. Moving Fellaini and bringing on, perhaps Mirallas, would have been seen to upset the balance of what had been up till then, an acceptable performance. It didn't work. Get over it.

Paragraph 2: Ref: The missing Bermuda three. As already mentioned in numerous posts above, they played well against United a little over a week ago. I am far from any of that trios biggest fan, but you cannot celebrate in their performance one week and then demand they never play again the following. Credit were it is due. Or perhaps in your eyes we beat United with 8 men, which is an even more impressive feat.

Paragraph 3: Ref: Leaving Fellaini where he was and Neville were he was. 'Terrible tactics'. See above, he must have struck lucky against United with the same terrible tactics.

Paragraph 4 - 6: from how bad is Distin (remember wembley), to Hibbo should be dropped for Coleman (but don't mention wembley here, were the headless chicken Coleman gave away a needless freekick that inevitably lost us the game).

The rest of it: We have 6 points from 9. Some are happy with it, some are not. I'm sure Liverpool would have wanted more than 1 at this stage. I'm sure Spurs wanted more than 2. I'm sure WBA weren't expecting 7 and I'm sure United wouldn't have expected to be beaten already. That is football. Me personally? We are 6th, and that is a pleasing start in my book.

Finally, some depressing news for you - we will lose again this season at some stage.

Fellaini has been unanimously hailed as our best player playing in the advanced MF role (look at the Toffeeweb poll for confirmation). If he had been moved back what would it have achieved? Coleman or Gauye would have come on on one of the flanks and Naismith or Pienaar would have gone to AMF (and no doubt there would have been a rant in the circumstances).

This would have completely upset the balance and any pre-organised tactics would have gone out of the window.

Moyes did what he could but didn't have other credibe options hence why he's signed another CM on loan.

Get off his case.

1 defeat is not a catastrophe - the manner of it was really disappointing and (gulp) I have to agree with Tony Marsh that David Moyes took the safety 1st option at the critical 1st opportunity. And it was right there in central midfield where saturday was won and lost. Their 2 lads were excellent.

I don't go with the individual player assassinations that Marshy has put forward but on saturday our manager came 2nd in his individual battle as well as his team.

A bit early for such a knee jerk Marshy - it is a long season and it would be good to see your observations more often when we do get back to playing the joined up good stuff like we did in our first 3 games. Instead of we lose stand by for a Tony Marsh rant.

Reminds me of a cockney on a building site saying to my mate "you might be slow but you're shit" .......couldn't have been that slow though as he laid the guy out before he'd finished the sentence.

You say: "This is also pathetic (and syntax please) : 'He was on here after that game...saying he thought we'd finish 4th'. So fucking what? He's not allowed to change his mind FFS?"

Errr...that was in response to someone who said he had been in hiding. Yes, he's entitled to change his mind. To have such a radical change of mind after one defeat / substitution in the third game of the season seems a little OTT but each to their own.

The 'uppers' comment was in jest but in all seriousness, if I knew the man personally, I'd be slightly concerned about the effect that defeat /substitution has had on him (and much of the article seems to be based on Moyes' substitution when Gibson got injured) I'm basing that on what comes across as a hysterical rant a full three days after the game - our first defeat / poor performance in 10 or so games - which is in stark contrast to his obvious optimism just 2 games ago.

As for the content of the article, I think GJ's post sums it up best.

2) Osman, a very under-rated player. Had he had little more pace and strength, he would have been one of the finest midfielders in the Premier League. He is a valuable member of the squad.

3) Hibbert is very good at what he does. Few defenders can tackle with such clinical precision and he has developed into an able crosser of the ball.

4) WBA and Stoke are unpleasant teams to play against. The outcome to the game should not shock anyone.

5) Our midfield problems seem to have been solved. I am convinced that the partnership of Gibson and Vadis is going to be formidable. The following Everton team should fear no one:

Howard
Hibbert, Heitinga (C), Jagielka, Baines
Gibson, Vadis
Fellaini
Mirallas, Pienaar
Jelavic

I know that playing almost the exact same team that played so well against Man Utd (for 60 mins anyway) wasn't a tactical blunder by Moyes that deserved this kind of shit off Marsh.

I am the kind of person who prefers attacking subs and risk taking but I understand why Moyes did what he did.

Maybe Fellaini should have buried that clear chance when it was nil-nil?

It's too easy to always blame the manager... and like others have said Fellaini has earned nationwide plaudits for his performances in an advanced position. So Moyes left him there. Simple.

No problem with people disagreeing with the manager. I have many times. But the wording of this article is pathetic.

I thought Moyes got it wrong, but would never have expressed that in the way that TMarsh did. Life has never been that simple.

Looking back maybe he did get it wrong. But everyone does sometimes.

We've still had a good start so no need to panic yet.

Can't wait for the Newcastle match. COYB.

It goes without saying Leon ran his socks into the ground and was roundly praised for the performance against United. He is one of our most technically gifted players but doesn't have the physical presence to peform at the highest level in the English league on a CONSISTENT basis - I suggest on his day he is terrific and has certainly weighed in with important goals. That is a fault with our obsession with power & pace, hence why the England football team never competes on the international level (but who gives a shit about that?). Phil Neville adds stability and presence to the team that only someone who plays football to a standard would understand. Tony Hibbert - he'll never let you down and is one of the best defenders in the league; rewind 20 years, the perfect full back.

Tony; having seemingly returned from Toffeeweb exile, where you just itching to criticise at the earliest opportunity? Simple fact is it is near impossible to go through a season at any level of football without having an off day or dropping points.

As much as you hate it, 6 from 9 is a good return. One of the strongest squads on paper for some time, lets feel optimistic for once and not get carried away by one result / performance against a team that has started equally well.

Good to see you back though!!

I would hate to be anywhere near the RS forums right now where, what's their latest called? Brendan is hardly being as the the Messiah, more like 'bring me his head on a salver' John the Baptist style victim. But its not over till Salome dances.

And our boys are well equipped. Trouble is every team in the top division is too. We didn't underrate them but we should have put it to bed.

And don't take the usual standard of crappy English refereeing out of this equation. I spend a lot of time in Spain and regularly see a performance to match the laws of the game considerably better than the 'hard but fair' mentality that allows tackles from behind here. It happens in footballing playing nations, but nowhere near, or in, the penalty area because they know they will be penalised.

We have a stone age set of refs.

It is not necessarily having Neville, Osman and Hibbert on the pitch at the same time that was the problem for a fair few of us, it was the combinations used that bemused us. Neville and Osman were not paired in midfield against Man U or Villa so this tactic can not be said to have been used successfully in either of those games. Ossies lack of pace contributed to the ease of their attack down our right flank that led to their first goal.

Phil Neville may be capable of helping out in CM with a suitable partner but he is not a like-for-like substitute for Darron Gibson. I am surprised to hear fans claiming that (the fact that our manager may think so too, frankly appalls me) as it shows a complete lack of understanding of what DG gives to the team.

Everton fans are not unanimous in their clamouring for Fellaini to remain as an attacking midfielder come what may. We have been able to bring in some very exciting and talented attacking players who may prove to be even more valuable to the team in that position, and if the likes of Gibson or Odjidja-Ofoe pick up injuries then Fellaini may simply be required to make our defensive midfield more robust.

Finally, having got 6 points from 2 games I would be pretty disappointed to only end up with another 8/9 from the following 7 games. Anything below 15 points after nine games would make it poor, 15 to 20 would be good, anything over 20 would be excellent.

I'm sure if Fellaini had been dropped back into midfield and we had still lost, Tony wold have come on here and bashed Moyes for changing a winning system! I guess he's gone back to using hindsight after attempts at foresight ("when we lose to Fulham" before last years FA Cup game being a notable example) just wasn't working out for him!

We lost the quarterback and we do not have a like-for-like replacement.

First they had Roy now Rogers and they've just let Trigger out on loan to West Ham.

Unless of course you are like so many of the Moyesophile kids on here, who have never had the pleasure of seeing what a Trophy-winning Everton team looks and PLAYS like, and think that bore draws, the occasional win against the SKY 4, and mere top 8 survival constitute achievement, entertainment and success.

For all that I like the Bermuda triangle comment. I do hope that with an increase in squad strength we won't see Neville and Hibbert in the same side, but the good news is that Neville is generally not starting in midfield

You are actually a wind-up merchant

We've won 3 of our first four games, including a match against one of the big four at home. We've had the best transfer window in ages, and for once can look forward with optimism. We went 12? games unbeaten? And that's not good enough for some of you?

For those complaining about the result against West Brom... have you ever thought of looking toward the opposition, instead of us? Seemingly, some on here, believe we should win every game, and that every defeat, can be put down to Pip, Hibbert, Osman or tactics. West Brom's home record of late has been incredible, and one of the best in the division. I think they've kept 7 clean sheets in their last nine home matches? Why do we have a divine right to go there and win? Did the thrashing of Liverpool not give some of you a clue, that perhaps WBA are not an easy team to play at the moment?

And I can't fully understand complaints about Neville going into midfield... he is not the player we would like there, but he is placed there, because he is disciplined, and a disciplined player is necessary in the centre of midfield. Song, was one of the most talented midfielders in the division, but he cost Arsenal so many goals, because he would not keep his position. Pretty much every top team around has at least one disciplined midfielder, and hopefully this new belgium guy, can be a better answer than Neville. But calls for Heitinga are wide of the mark, and whilst Neville is not what any of us would like, name me a more disciplined player in our team?

Some of you need to relax, and take a look at the table.

No - just people like you who moan for a bloody living and do the very best to dampen any enthusiasm and dreams of the average fan. Every ground has them - the loud moaning gobshite whose personal hell when a ball poorly passed or a wrong sub comes on has to be expressed loudly so everyone know they suffer the most and love the club more. Charlatans to me.

But hell - maybe it is so important this football lark that we should never enjoy it, have some fun and maintain a bit of perspective that all it is is just a ball and some guys kicking it around.

Tell us a joke mate - but not about Moyes. Go on. Try.

They recognise that you can't batter teams in the premier league 3-0 in 45 minutes away from home every single week, they know that sometimes you've got to takethe scrappy wins and draws when they come. That's why they're multiple champions because they've got the ability to do both. We finally have that ability back to dominate teams yet knee jerk fans suddenly think that Villa away is going to be the benchmark for the rest of the season. These fans would sacrifice any number of points as long as they were being entertained by some attack minded team without an Englishman over 30 in sight. We should have just recognised our limitations kept it tight and we would have had a draw with confidence going into the next home game and a point extra and still unbeaten. That's what a top team would have done, instead we got nothing and everyone feels a bit deflated, hope you were entertained though Peter.

How is replacing Gibson with Hibbert "going for it".

Also I think your wrong about utd, they will take a scrappy win if thats what they come away with but they don't settle for it during the game. Ferguson has said that its important to keep on scoring goals thats what pissed him off about losing the title on goal difference.

You may not like how Tony packaged his argument, and yes this team did well in the first game... but after Gibson went off Moyes got it terribly wrong and the players didnt help by, what looked to me was a bunch of guys who believed the hype and had lost focus.

Jags gave his best performance in 2 years against Man U... but against West Brom was nowhere again.. literally. Him and Distin do not deserve to start together after the mess they have proved, countless times, to be together.

I don't enjoy a whinge... and had I written the day after the game I wouldn't have sounded too different to Tony. The concerns I had before Man U came home to roost against West Brom.

6 points from 9 games is good... but the 3 points against Man U was a bonus that we have just pissed away against a team we beat twice last year. We won't achieve top 4 if we allow ourselves to ride this rollercoaster of performance. We need to remain focussed and precise.. we weren't either.

I don't even dispute some of your points regarding Neville and Hibbert, but it really is a knee jerk reaction. Had we won that game, you wouldn't have said a single thing, which is exactly why you waited for a defeat to raise these points, in the manner you have.

Didn't see any berating posts from you after the Man U or Villa games.

You're probably the kind of person who'll call for Coleman at right back, then slag the lad off after 2 poor games.

I seriously think some of our fans want us to lose, just so they've got something to moan at. First defeat in 11 league games, god you've been kept waiting for this!!

I appreciated Paul Ferrys skillful revision @669 (surely a position with the new health minister awaits. Let's see you spin....er....i mean rationalise,,,,or rather. ...explain the new health bill).

GJ Butler (use of initials: gravitas man) @731 completely demolishes every point made in the op, so I stopped reading there. A new crackerjack quill is on its way to you.

.........if 'bermuda three' was your creation, kudos Mr M.

Mirallas would have been a good change but the lad himself admitted that he is not fit enough yet, so I doubt he would have lasted the 75 minutes.

Someone mentioned the last 15 minutes against Villa as a warning sign, did we not almost set up Mirallas for a debut goal and then have one chalked off for an offside?

Moyes gets me to the point were I explode because I know the squad we have is a match for anyone if he uses them properly. Last Saturday, Moyes fucked up again just when I thought he had learned from past mistakes.

Try and sell Hibbert or Osman to another Premier League side and see how many takers there would be. That's the reality of it. They are not good enough so live with it... If you are happy losing to WBA like that then I'm sorry but you haven't got a clue about Everton should be playing football.

We have had one defeat, United have had two; WBA destroyed Liverpool and are playing out of their skins for a new Manager who has got them organised well and working very hard; we were playing them off the park until Gibson went off. The last time United started the season with 3 defeats they won the league. It was one game FFS.

Isn't it amazing how one defeat can bring out the bed wetters, hand wringers and armchair experts. If we could only produce money from bloody moaning we could pay off Everton's debt and buy a new ground for them too. Has anybody noticed how really well Everton have played this year and what exceptional buys we have made? Does anybody realise the real respect given and esteem that we are held in by other team's fans and managers as the club that produces the goods without the resources of others? We're not the finished article yet but we are almost there, give them a chance FFS

Heitinga in midfield? Oh dear

He may not be the greatest but please let's stay united behind the man to at least see what will be this year. There has been enough division between supporters over Kirkby, Black Bill etc. Lets for once not be too quick to jump on the man's back.

Funny how some posters mysteriously go missing when we win a few games only to magically reemerge from the abyss when we lose a game.

Tony, no one is happy that lost to West Brom but, perversely, some posters only actually seem to be "happy" when we do lose.

Bad day at the office? Dunno, didn't watch it, but from reading the reports it seems that Baines, Pienaar and Fellaini had their worst game for a while. 3 of your best players not performing will make it harder for you, especially if one of them misses a sitter and we get caught on the break after said missed sitter.

The view from the sidelines is that Tony doesn't respect Moyes which comes across quite clearly and is a shame because I too hold strong views on our Davey: I love Moyes. He came along at the right time after Walter Smith which was a huge relief for me.

On to the topic: just like Tony, I too was livid, although I love Moyes, I slate him when it is called for as much as the rest of you. After listening to Moyes state on SPN that he was at fault for the loss due to the fact he went for the win, and maybe he should have taken the draw (What? — with half an hour left?), he should not've apologised for trying to win any game.

As early as the 20th minute, Moyes had the opportunity and the resources to hand to bring about a different outcome. I too don't think Osman should be in front of Hibbert – he gives him NO protection whatsoever! And yet Tony gets the flak for Osman's mistakes!!!

Moyes could quite easily see Fellaini was being targeted and should have changed his tactics. With Mirallas still short on fitness, I would have played him off Jelavic, put Naismith on the right wing, and took Osman off who, after 60 minutes, was going to struggle against Odemwingie – as was the case.

We have in the past made excuses for Moyes in not having the personnel to affect a result; now he has the best improve his substitutions fast. I was upset on Saturday because his mistakes were quite elementary. After 10 years in the PL, he should have done better, I have to agree with Moyes – he did cost us the points on Saturday... but not for the reasons he gave.

Like Tony, I would (given the choice) like to see the back of Moyes, but to be fair, I've been (generally) happy with the football we've been playing (or attempting to play) in the past few months.

I also accept it's not ALWAYS going to work.

I remember when we played Wolves last season, we had been performing well for a few weeks before and after 15 mins of that game, I thought we'd get a bag-full.

We didn't.

Our performance that day (a bit like on Saturday) just..fizzled out.

When things didn't come off, we looked a bit..um..puzzled as to what to do next.

The opposite was the case in the first two games.

When things didn't come off against Utd and Villa there was an urgency and an attitude of "We're getting closer" rather than "tut - nothing's working"

Why?

Well I'm always reminded of the interview with Alex Young on The Golden Vision.

He says (paraphrasing) 'Sometimes when I'm good I know I can be very good and other times I can plumb the depths and I don't know why'.

Sometimes it just...happens.

I also think had Gibson not been injured, we'd have had a chance of winning and believe (even though we weren't playing great) had Fellaini buried his chance, we'd probably WOULD have won.

Anyway, I'm hoping that we'll get back to playing, not just decent stuff, but decent stuff with 'that' attitude.

One thing I DO agree with though, is Tony's verdict on Neville (in midfield).

Neville's a decent human being and I like him as a feller, but I'd have almost anyone else in his place.

Touch shite, vision shite, passing shite and I think with the (type of) football we're attempting to play now, this, imo, is shown up even more.

Hopefully 'normal' service will be resumed against Newcastle.

Villa toil, AVB sacked by end of season, Bolton relegated and Rodgers next to Jeff Selling by Christmas.

Heitinga in midfield, he might be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. Take a bow, Peter.

References are also made to Neville having played the majority of his games for us in the middle of the park, I've no idea on this one as I've not looked at the stats but I'd have to say that your assertion is certainly questionable.

Finally, you pour scorn on the idea of Hetinga possibly playing in the middle when in fact the player is on record as having said that he himself does not know his best position as he considers himself equally good in both positions – midfield and defence. Personally I'm undecided on this one as I've not seen enough of him in the middle.

I do recall us being totally outclassed at Spurs with Johnny playing in defence we were 2-0 down as I recall with Palacious running the show through his sheer physical presence in the middle of the park. However, Moyes on that occasion introduced Jagielka just after the break and moved Johnny into the midfield and the game was turned on its head. We scored and Spurs were on the back foot and, but for Donovan missing an absolute sitter in the closing stages, we would have got something from a game in which we looked dead and buried and Hetinga rightly took the plaudits for his outstanding performance that day. Perhaps things are not always as clear cut as they first seem.

If we played for a long period of time with him there, the performances would decrease quick. He is a fine centre-back; he could play in a back 3... but midfield? Nope.

Hey, I thought that was just my technique. Isn't rooting for a team great? Ignore all requirements of life's responsibilities until I "feel more cheerful". That's exactly what I do.

Good stuff.

You slate Distan for the 1st goal yet Osman, Hibbo and Jags all failed to prevent it and don't forget we actually had a keeper who could have should have come off his line when he saw Long gaining on Distin.

We should take into account 6 clean sheets in their last eight games, the game turned with Felli's miss and the introduction of Odemwingie.

The reality of course is that unless this team can 1984 style, rise from the ashes like a phoenix and lead us to financial salvation via successful European football then we have no prospects whatsoever. My point is that it doesn't need incompetence by the board or manager to bracket us thus. We are doomed to it because we do not have the financial clout to become successful. We are now a small club - there, I've said the unmentionable. Now where's that hard hat?

The whole team could not give a fuck so we lost, it is that simple!

This is not to say they won't win anything in the future, they may well do, maybe we will, who knows what the forward thinking changes to our academy has done. If our board hasn't forward planned then who has? Ever thought that our limitations in terms of finances and commercial prospects is not due to a lack of executive ability but more a lack of opportunity? Even Liverpool felt the bite of Adidas because of poor performance, if they can't secure the big name kit deals anymore how are we expected to strike up these super lucrative partnerships?

Which makes Martin's statement "unless this team can 1984 style, rise from the ashes like a phoenix and lead us to financial salvation via successful European football then we have no prospects whatsoever" merely his opinion

Absolutely the same as myself but I’m not claiming anything regarding the board’s wrongdoing. For me the board is doing a good job unless it can be shown that they aren’t. He who makes the claim has to show that on the balance of probability it’s correct. Opinions are like farts and children in that they are OK but only when they are your own. Opinions are only valid if you can back them up and invalid opinions are worthless.

The comparison between an opinion on the board and the temperature in any given place is invalid as that isn’t an opinion, it can be validated by measurement. Your views on the EFC board are opinion and no more than that. It is critical when we discuss these issues that we differentiate between opinion, valid opinion and probable fact or truth. Opinions are not fact.

Not absolutely correct, opinion is validated strongly also if it can be supported by logical argument. My point here is that we will recover only by increasing income and, as a football club selling only football prowess, that can only be achieved by being successful? Of course what I said is my opinion and I should have been more careful in how I worded it.

Just as an example, if somebody says “David Moyes is incompetent as a manager”, this is an opinion; it’s also a totally ridiculous opinion. If somebody said, “ I believe that David Moyes is has a weakness in that he plays his favourite players regardless of form”. Or perhaps “I believe Moyes has a weakness in that he has a negative approach”, then I’d say that these are still opinions which are valid enough for further discussion.

Every thing is there in black and white (or colour if you have a colour printer).

Them numbers lead to a scary future prognosis - i.e. only option is to sell off the family silver and/or pray at the alter of sky for ever increasing tv money to allow us to constantly refinance our ever increasing liabilities.

Other items like Kings Docks, Kirby, Bellefield, Stadium (still an issue a decade + later and still no plan) you will presumably ignore as these are only based on 'opinion'.

And Manchester United didnt have every centre half missing...Vidic played didn't he? so they had to play one emergency centre half...poor United, having spent millions again this summer, and had to deal with playing someone out of position.

What makes me laugh most of all Tony...is that your last comment yet again references the derbies. Get the fuck over it. We finished above Liverpool didn't we? and we are above them now? We've lost one game in 11/12, and we have been playing great football. We lost away to a team playing with an impressive intensity, and alot of confidence, in a match which we could have won if we had taken our chances. And Coleman at right back...really? what Coleman have you been watching lately? because the one Ive seen has never shown himself to be good enough defensively to play right back in the premier league.

And Mick...your comments regarding United are bizzare. We were not playing a makeshift team...they were missing a cb partner for Vidic, that was all. Valencia played at right back, through choice (Rafael was available), because he offers good defensive protection. They may have had alot of possession, but possession is irrelevant if a team does not create chances with it. During the match, Fellaini had as many touches in United's area, as united's team had in ours. We bossed that match, and we created the chances...so how exactly were we lucky? Very few teams in this league, or the champions league, will dominate a match against United as comprehensively as we did this season.

We've won 3 out of 4 games, we brought in Pienarr, who we desperately needed. We've add Naismith, who looks a very talented player, as well as a highly rated and young left sided player. We also brought in the best player in Greece last season, and, fingers crossed, a very highly rated cm. And Kennedy, who is a bit of a shot in the dark. We currently sit above Newcastle, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool in the table, and therefore, every rival for a top six, or even four, finish. I do not understand why some of you continue to complain...just because we've lost one match. Get some perspective. And Tony Marsh...everyone has a right to an opinion, and it is great to witness so many on Toffeeweb. But the large majority of articles lack any objectivity whatsoever, and seem to me, to just be, attempts to troll.

Thank your for your opinion. Meet you on Rabbit Island at dusk to discuss opinions, especially the one that opines the Board are tossers. I'll bring the Ffes

a) hope that moyes and the team don't get relegated
b) pray that the sky tv money increases every few years
c) sell off one or more player assets to pay down debt/provide transfer funds
d) keep the banks happy (i.e. at bay) via a combination of one or all of the above.

That has pretty much been our business plan for the last x years. A monkey could do the job of the board in my opinion - although am being a bit harsh on the monkey admittedly.

We start off with the headline "Davey Moyes — Cock-Up King!"
(thank God for the hyphen) and progress(?) to the textual equivalent of an out-of-body experience or a conversation on the meaning of logic and the validity of opinion between René Descartes and Popeye the Sailor Man

Great stuff - in my opinion

When it comes down to it we all have the same aims which is for our wonderful club to get back on its feet again where it belongs. Where we have been for the last 20 years has been especially painful for me having seen the great times in the 60s and the 80s. I drove up from Horsham for the United game (4 hours on the M25 and a speeding ticket for the worse)and I could see that the spark is still there, our away support is also still fantastic considering. We are a special club and I would do anything to see us back.

A monkey could also do the job done at United and Chelsea on that basis, in fact it could be a much thicker monkey as the job at EFC is far harder. All of the problems you list wouldn’t be there with the revenue that the top teams have. The balancing act our board has to do is 10 times harder.

Would you find survival in life easier if you were poor or rich? If you were poor would it be easy to just find yourself a “viable plan” to become rich? I rest my case your honour

Finally, you pour scorn on the idea of Hetinga possibly playing in the middle when in fact the player is on record as having said that he himself does not know his best position as he considers himself equally good in both positions – midfield and defence. Personally I'm undecided on this one as I've not seen enough of him in the middle. "

I challenged Predictable Peter's opinion that Moyes was being defensive and then suggesting he put a defender on instead of a midfielder. Nothing to do with watching the game.

Yes, it was an offside and just before that we were about a meter away from getting a fourth, they hit the post. The only other shot that scared us. Didn't tear us apart.

No need to look up stats on Neville, just use your memory, I did and the majority of the time he has been in midfield, he slipped into right back last season.

Heitinga may not know his best position; I do, it's centre half, never a midfielder.

Arsenal hit the once in a generation jackpot with Wenger as Liverpool did with Shankly.

Wenger is the intelligent version of Clough building champions via unknowns then selling them on as stars AND then repeating the trick.

The Emirates is down to him, I've read disparaging comments that he walked in on champions as though Riochs failure with the existing gang of piss'eads and gamblers the previous season was an illusion.

Those that learned from his education stayed the rest shipped out replaced by unknown gems.

Working the oracle buying low and selling high and still delivering on the pitch has given Arsenal what they have - piss all to do with the board.

Wenger's gone nuts of course just like Clough believing his own infallibility, the Barca game can't work here.

Our biff, bang, bosh football is played to different rules, the reverse effect does England at international level where contact let alone booting people in the back of the leg isn't allowed (poor Wayne).

The right manager can make you the money and win you stuff or you can have a Dalglish type

Here's the problem,in my view. Our best performance from our best eleven can beat anyone. A poor performance from our best eleven can't beat West Brom. Throw injuries and suspensions into the mix and we struggle. Barry some people believe we have the "right manager" you refer to.In the first half against Villa we did.

I wasn't advocating that Hetinga should be given an extended run in midfield or infact that he should have played in that position against WBA. I was merely highlighting the fact that on occasions in the past he has been outstanding in some games in that position. I wouldn't disagree that there have been occasions too when he's disappointed while playing in midfield. My point is that when he's given an extended run in the side as he was last year we tend to see the best of him.

I'm simply saying that I'd be reluctant to dismiss the relative merits of playing him in that position as others have on the basis of the number of appearances he's made. However, I'd have him well ahead of Neville to play that position for the simple reason he's more than capable of finding a blue shirt with a forward pass rather than resort to hoofing the ball up the park or constantly looking to play sidewards and backwards.

I was simply making the point that in order to determine if Moyes had adopted a defensive mindset after the enforced substitution you'd have to have witnessed how the game progressed.

One could argue that if you replace a midfielder with a right back (Hibbert) and move another right back (Neville) to play central midfield when you already have one of the best midfielders in the premiership playing up front available to drop back into that position and other options upfront e.g. Mirallas could then have partnered Jelavic or even Naismith for that matter and you choose a more conservative approach. Then its understandable I suppose that some might accuse Moyes of simply attempting to contain the opposition rather than take the game to them. However I'd prefer to watch to see the how the personnel are deployed before passing judgement.

Sadly Neville does have a reputation for misplaced passes, seeking to move the ball sidewards and backwards and if all else fails hoof it up the park - it's a trait more common in defenders than other outfield players, sadly this game was no different. So I guess it was no surprise to find us on the back foot after the change and the rest is history. As for the Villa game I note you've failed to even mention the fact that they scored. With regard to Neville's appearances I think its fair to say that we are all guilty at times of being selective with what we choose to recall so I think I'll stick with the published stats rather than rely on anyones memory.

I like Gibson, he falls into the Don Hutchison bucket of a player seizing his chance after failing at a big one. Let's hope Moyes can find another gem.

In one camp, those like me, who think that to replicate the team that has done so well in the league since Spring you have to have a Gibson 'type' player prompting everything from deep; if a player with the requisite abilities is not available (open to debate, imo) it is not 'going for it' to stick Pip and Ossie together in the rearguard just to keep Felli more advanced.

In the other, those who believe that PIp moving to centre mid to partner Ossie was absolutely the right thing to do; it must be an equivalent team because they have both played CM in games we have won this season. It just wasn't our day and nobody else could have done any better.

Gerry (#089) - I got shot down making pretty much the same point, but it hasn't changed my opinion on the matter. Heitinga for Gibson as an emergency stop-gap should have been a better option, and one that the coaching staff have been working on since we decided to sell Rodwell.

All football clubs are "shite" off the field. Anyone who knows anything about running a business knows that (I, for one, know nothing about running a business.) We are in a less awful state than most clubs.

I would love to know where all the money is going at The Emirates as the player sales have been huge, with a big stadium, big ticket prices, naming rights, Champions League etc. After giving up Arsenal to compete, the fans do feel cheated.... and I don't think it's Wegner.

Just saying like....

Just saying like....

I for myself don't buy in to this...churlish of you to critisise a team that hasn't lost many in the last dozen or so games games'. Most of those were last season.

This season we've played and out of sorts United, the worst Villa side since the last time we beat then away in '05 and Leyton Orient who peaked in 62 when getting promoted as runners up to the RS.

I still have my MOB uniform in the back of the wardrobe but have gone on record for this season ( based on the good events of the last 8mths ) and after the United game, to calm down those getting carried away, of which Tony was ( compared to his usual ) one, as One game at a time, reassess after 10. I think this is still valid.

But as Tony says, he has seen too many solitary swallows flying in the light of too many false dawns not believe that more likely than not Moyes will and does all too often revert to type.

I hope he isn't right, but...