Not got a lot of choice really if Gibson is injured. Don't forget we had a top quality player "signed" for the centre of midfield but for a dodgy fax machine. So Plan B is to get Ross on loan to advance his development. In January we will have those two ready for the final push.

We will continue to score goals, at least two per game on average at this rate, and be on target for 70 points plus. This is a good side playing good football. Remember thinking how can we cope without Cahill, Yakubu and Arteta and no money to spend? And yet here we are, top job from Moyes.

With his transfer savvy and seemingly new found willingness to adapt to modern football, the answer should be an emphatic YES.

There is another explanation and that is that Moyes isn't negative but that he plays to the strengths and skills of the players that he has available. He has better players available now and he has the team playing better football.

We have played very good stuff at times under Moyes' stewardship. If we do as well as a I believe we can this year then I'd say the turnaround from last December is on of the biggest success stories in soccer management.

That it's unlikely to result in silverware isn't EFCs fault but that the basic structure of the EPL means that only a few sides with very high spending power can have the squad size and quality needed to be successful consistently in the EPL and the cup competitions. The competition is fearsome and there are no easy games.

Look at how well WBA are playing and Stoke were brilliant yesterday at Chelsea. We are doing brilliantly now and we have possibly the best manager in the EPL or Europe at least in managing a smaller club like EFC. I believe that next year we'll be playing in Europe and that will be a big test for Moyes and a small squad.

For the benefit of all, I have never been a fan of Moyes. Only because of my belief that his sole ambition at the start of every season has been to keep us in the Premier League. An ambition he has achieved every year.

However, during that time I believe the club has lowered it's standards of expectation and also the level of entertainment that is given to its loyal fans. I know that people then look at the Premier League and blame the financial restrictions that Moyes works under for this lowering. But I am 46 now and my father, grandfathers, great grandfathers and uncles all have teams and players that they regale and idolise. So history is there it can't be wiped away and I know the game has changed but our club has failed to adapt to that change.

Ultimately the Board of Directors has to take the responsibility for this but Moyes has constantly frustrated me with his inability to be a whistleblower. Subsequently, this has alienated him from a fair number of blues. He is obviously a passionate driven man but from my point of view this has not shone through with his readiness to accept whatever the board throws at him.

Now this is were I take it personally as I come from a working class background and I want working class heroes, someone who kicks sand, someone who kicks and screams against injustice. Not someone who takes a knife to a gunfight.

There is something different this season though; don't ask me what it is. The team has a belief in itself – although not at Man Utd levels. We pass the ball more are players shoot – 30 attempts on goal, Jesus, I never thought I would see that stat again. We still have missings but all teams do.

If we continue with this style and mentality and seriously attempt to beat the Shite, then an emphatic yes but this is based only on what I have witnessed this season, not what has gone on previously.

I am hoping at last that my boy has stories to tell his sons and grandsons; after all, that is what being an Evertonian is all about.

10 more years... or are we witnessing the prelude for him taking over the reigns from Sir Alex?

Paul are you honestly saying that Moyes has lowered expectations! Were you asleep during the 1990s? I have seen better football and much higher expectations under Moyes than at any time since the 1980s. The only reason we haven't seen silverware is because the players have choked a bit on the day.

I think Moyes is a total shoe-in for the Man Utd job when Ferguson retires. The boy has done miracles in my opinion. Yes, there have been low points, but even Ferguson nearly got sacked early on.

Amazed we can live on the same planet, watch the same thing and have two completely different perspectives.

Paul, I agree that there's something different about the team this year.

I must disagree with the idea that under Moyes "the club has lowered its standards of expectation" though.

For most of the decade before Moyes, we genuinely feared relegation every year. We expected the dogfight. We got used to the last day of the season escape stories.

I would argue that, far from lowering expectations, Moyes has raised them beyond recognition. So much so that many fans (me included) are able to moan that we're not exciting enough, that we don't kill games off, that we don't push more 4 and 5 goals when we get 3. Comparatively trivial moans when, all the while, we fully expect to finish in the top 8 at least and we've become accustomed to league positions like 4th, 5th and 6th.

That's not good enough for Everton, I know. But just think back to the Walter Smith era, the Kendall fiasco, Dave Watson's desperate 7 games, Mike Walker's comedy routine (I'm deliberately leaving Royle out as a notable exception, although the truth is that our style of football under Royle was rarely pretty). Think back to how you checked the fixture list to see who we were playing on the last day of the season, secretly knowing we'd probably need at least a point to stay in the top flight.

Now, we're pissed off if we don't qualify for Europe. Only one man is responsible for that shift and, as you say, he's done it with a board that has never matched his ambition.

Paul, not too sure as to how you think Moyes has lowered expectations; when he came, we were looking relegation in the face, now we are pissed off if we don't reach Europe.

All the nostalgia is great but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans with today's money men. It is no coincidence that Man City are now Champions after being taken over by billionnaires.

He is an above-average manager managing an above-average team who he gets the most out of.

I have criticised Moyes in the past, but I think this a new phase of his reign. I welcome another five years.

Several different things may have happened together, creating a perfect storm.

1. Moyes wasn't even considered for the Spurs job. Did this hurt him and make him question his inadaquacies?

2. Moyes has been forced to replace some of the old guard, particularly Cahill.

3. Moyes has been able to operate with some freedom in the market, and Kenwright has for once been able to give him most of his wish-list. He even went after Essien.

4. Moyes is older, more experienced and perhaps has learned to trust his players and simply let them play.

I'm not sure what Moyes has to 'blow the whistle' about? There are no secrets here when it comes to the fundamentals. We all know we are a hand-to-mouth club that can only afford a squad of a certain size and that we are out of the market entirely when it comes to world class players. When we find one of our own, the big boys come sniffing. That's how it is for most of the Premier League and I even include the Shite in that nowadays. Even Arsenal can no longer compete.

I think every manager starts off a season with the priority of keeping his club in the Premier League. How much he may specifically worry about that depends on the state of the club in question but, for a club like Everton, and most of the others, the priority is always there. Around Christmas you tend to have a good idea whether relegation is going to be an issue and by the end of January you can be pretty certain about it and that's when the pressure can ease.

The problems Everton have now, financially, stretch back decades and to blame the present incumbents on the Board is incorrect and myopic.

We also have a number of disadvantages to contend with. A club on our doorstep whose historic success makes it look to some eyes as if they own the place and which has made us unfashionable in the eyes of the media (who do matter unfortunately). Two big clubs in a middling size city and a stadium that we love but which everybody else thinks is a tip (probably including potential buyers) and this makes it very difficult to increase revenue to a level which would make a difference on the pitch. I find it difficult to perceive what the board can do about this given that, while by our standards they are all wealthy people, they are paupers compared to Sheiks and Oligarchs. You can't make anybody buy a football club and Everton are not in the best position as a proposition to buy.

My greatest fear is that given our situation, if ever we went down, I cannot see how we would ever get back up. The only reason we can punch above our weight time after time is because we have managed to stay up when so many other clubs in a similar position have failed to do so. Some have stayed down and others yo-yo interminably. The club know this and that is why the priority every season is to get to the 42 points mark. Everything else is a bonus.

This explains Moyes's caution for me. He knows as well as we do that expectation is one thing and performance is another. A couple of years ago, we began to play well and became known as 'Arsenal-Lite'. Expectation soared and even on this generally pessimistic site there was talk of us winning the league the following year. What actually happened is that we started off playing well but couldn't get many wins. We wallowed in the basement for a number of months. We didn't have the squad or the individual players that could change anything significantly and it became a very nervous period.

This is the problem that Moyes has to contend with every year. He knows the history. He knows we have spent more time in the top flight that anybody else and he knows what a disaster it would be to go down. It's a pity but that explains the caution and it is a caution that in our present predicament we need.

It is all very well to advocate gung-ho pretty-pretty football but what we cannot afford here is the football equivalent of the Charge of the Light Brigade — magnificent... but nevertheless a defeat.

Its a tough one to be honest. But if it were my decision I'd be prepared to give him another 5 years, solely on the basis of the last 18 months.

There is no doubting that he has moved us on from where we were 10+ years ago. The first 5 years of his reign were great. He was the right manager for us at that time. He took a poor squad full of ageing has-beens to the gates of the Champions League and rejuvenated the squad with the likes of Baines, Cahill and Arteta, all on a shoestring.

The next 5 years I think he could have done more than he did. How long have we been playing without pace, or a threat from the right wing? Or a lack of creativity? These things do not necessarily cost vast sums, especially when you have years of stability to get those kind of players in. At a time when the club had no money and was crying out for a bit of speed and flair, he spends £10M on Bily. A player with neither.

What grates at me the most, however, were his negative speeches, putting down his own players and telling the world how other teams had much better quality. Is it any wonder we've bottled it consistently and unnecessarily when playing the RS and other teams during high profile games?

That said, in the last 18 months I think Moyes has bought very, very well. Gibson, Jelavic and Mirallas are top quality players who give the team something that it was lacking. We have a quality central midfield, a centre forward who is clinical and another forward thinking player who has bags of pace and movement and an eye for a goal.

If we're to really move the club on, I think Moyes needs to improve in one particular area... and that is developing our "own" talent rather than filling the ranks with has-beens.

The club is operating right at its financial limits. No more McFaddens or Stracqualursis, please. We need to give the likes of Barkley, Duffy, Green etc the opportunities in the first team that they need to improve so they can help us, or be sold for a profit.

Get shut now. Big Sam Allardyce would walk over broken glass to manage us. FFS !

I suspect David Weir - his arrival coincided with the Moyes epiphany.

Weir is an intelligent man who commands respect not the usual "yes" man without an inkling. I'd wager he's got the communication skills to influence without upsetting, vital with a stubborn but brittle character like Moyes.

The Jelavic transfer was rumoured to be Weir's work despite Moyes reservations and from there the whole ethos has been bolder.

The selling of Rodwell to generate wheeler dealer money just wasn't Moyes, but he's done it and look what we've got.

We have progressive management looking to bring in creativity rather than being linked with centre halves every 5 mins and it's reflected on the pitch.

Whatever the reasons – and I suspect the Spurs job with journos openly questioning the functionality of Moyes's teams may have rattled him – long may it continue.

I strongly suspect that this will be our last season with Moyes and pleased that a few self-proclaimed Moyes bashers are giving him credit for his team this season.

Next person in will be a big choice. Early days in the Premier League but Atkins looks like a great young manager. Martinez and Lambert could be options and even Rodgers after RS sack him prematurely when we hump them in a few weeks time.

Whoever comes in will have a hard task replicating the work of a man who, in my (admittedly relatively young) eyes, will surely go down as an Everton hero if not legend.

When we lost to West Brom, my initial reaction was "FUCK!" (that's basically my reaction when we lose to anyone).

However I didn't post that 'thought' on TW and when I DID post (on the Tony Marsh thread), though disappointed with the result, I was in the main positive (even a little philosophical).

Basically, If Everton Football Club are playing (or trying to play) good, intelligent attacking football, I'll (always) be gutted when we lose, but won't slag anyone* including Moyes.

I read a couple of days ago (in... something) that, other than Arsenal, we were playing the best football in the league.

That might not mean a lot to some but it meant a LOT to me.

One thing that is standing out like dog's plums though, is Phil Neville's performances.

The better we play, the more... erm... 'agricultural' he looks.

Love to see us fill 'that' position with someone better suited to a fast, flowing pass (accurately) and move game.

Big fan of Phil the man though.

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[* When I say won't slag 'anyone', this doesn't apply to Aldridge Prior].

Most of the above are different but basically same same views on the same theme and I have to concur 5 more years would not be the end of the world based on 2012's attitude.

My imediate concern is the next 5 games, last night on the matchday forum it was said "With all our chances, we are going to give someone a pasting" — I hope it's the RS.

For me it's a bit like we're playing 3 card brag, and 5 hands in we've so far had a running flush, run, high card (8), flush, run.....

Looking at the next four games I've got a feeling we're going to have one dodgy hand when were not expecting it (Wigan? QPR?) but I think a prial is also in the pack and its getting near the top and it could even be all the 3's.......which means Liverpool, and a cricket score in our favour.

Let's hope the dealer hasn't marked the cards this time...

Another five years? This time last year the thought of it would have made me ill. Something, however, has gone badly right. We're playing some great stuff and expectations have been raised again.

I don't think the squad is strong enough to reach Champions League but this year at least talking about it doesn't seem insane. Good football, Europa League and maybe a cup run and it would be very hard to argue that a five-year contract wasn't well earned. Strange, though that getting 40 points will be enough to swing it for him.

Nothing I'd add beyond what Paul Foster and Martin Mason have already. Well said lads.

To be fair, the season is only weeks old, all fans must be made up to see us in the top four. But let's not get carried away, and hope we only suffer the loss of Gibson for more than two games, hopefully Jelavic will be back sooner than later.

Our next four league fixtures, Southampton (H), Wigan (A), QPR (A) and then our Red neighbours at Goodison, should give us some idea where we may be at Xmas. I, like most fans, fear the injury problem; with us only having a small squad, we need to keep clear of bad knocks.

One things for sure, we are much better going forward. If I have a doubt, it's the final finishing, we need to be more clinical.

Moyes will be offered whatever he wants in terms of the length of contract although I'm guessing, he won't sign for more than three years this time. His delay this year was deliberate, imo: firstly waiting to be offered the Spurs job... and secondly, I think if he had no money to spend during the last window, this would've been his last season with us.

The cold hard fact is, he's won nothing in 10 years, that makes a mockery of the media assertion of how ambitious and driven he is. I think he's only ever had one serious job offer (Aston Villa) while he's been with us, and I think if he was offered the Spurs job, he would be there now.

Five games into this season and his outlook might've changed (if he's as fickle as we are, that is) but I do get the feeling he may be treading water waiting for SAF to hang up his dodgy stopwatch.

A tin pot in the last 10 years wouldn't change anything about the club or the man Steve. Far worse clubs and managers have picked up a League Cup and most of those teams are now in the league below; the managers, out of work.

I would say it's all about tin pots Nick, for him and us. I wouldn't want to see him have a 30-year career winning nothing apart from jouno's plaudits along the way, especially if he's with us while he does it.

"The constant playing of Neville and Osman in the middle (it clearly doesn't work)"

Please somebody explain to me how it clearly doesn't work. These two have played in the middle together in the last two games and we've dominated all of one and most of the other, and would have won both comfortably but for two pretty shocking decisions from the officials. If I was looking for an example of something in football that works, I'd be looking for something with those kind of results.

I get that we all thought it wouldn't work, and I wanted Fellaini to drop back because it seemed like the only sensible option, but why won't people accept the evidence of their eyes?!

Well said, Mike, since the first day in January we are third behind City and Man Utd in the form league – that's not just a few good weeks it's nine bloody months.

Paul Johnson, I could not finish that woeful diatribe. But then it wasn't worth reading anymore. Moyes, lowered expectations? What an ignorant remark!

Mark Tanton,

Some good comments, but you can add the transfer policy of the past eight months. Two or three years' ago after a great second half of the season, people naively posted on this board that we could make top 4: we ended 7th or 8th.

But where was the right wing? We had none other than Coleman. Strikers? A recently badly injured Yak, and some injury prone youngsters such as Vaughan. Moyes thought he could go with what we had. I thought that was weak management: without money, he needed to wheel and deal, rather than be faithful to an admittedly well-functioning team. He had to sell someone to fund strategic purchases, but he didn't.

Since then, we have whittled away our excessive amount of midfielders: money from Bily and Rodwell brought in Pienaar, Mirallas, Gibson and Jelavic.

This is the most balanced all-round team we've had since the brief period of a Lescott, Arteta, Cahill and Yak; in fact, it's more balanced. Our left is still our best avenue of attack, but teams pushing us out to the right will have to cope with Mirallas, unlike before.

I also think that so many near misses: semis, finals, 5th places, Fiorentina may have spurred increased adventure in the manager.

My concern is not whether we'd sign Moyes for another five years, but with nine months left on his deal, would he sign?

If AvB does not take Spurs to at least 65 points and a good cup run, will Levy bypass Moyes again?

To those without the wit to see it, Spurs may not be a historically bigger club than us, but they are much richer, and that's what counts.

Keep up the good work, Brendan. You'll be with Jeff Steeling by Christmas.

I don't see that Moyes has changed. He's always tried to attack but is acutely aware that if you haven't got power up front then you need to load up the midfield with decent attacking minds – Cahill, Pienaar, Atrteta, Donovan, Osman. You then get the double benefit (in theory) of overrunning the opposition midfield.

Like others have said, our purchases over the past six-eight months have made the difference, plus Fellaini becoming the player we always hoped. Of all the signings, Gibson has been the most impressive, at least in terms of value for money. Astonishing. Jelavic was a great bit of sniffing, a deal that was done almost without anyone noticing.

Rodwell going was seriously good business – Moyes has his best squad on the back of it. If we lose key players I wouldn't be surprised if we to go back to loading up the middle. No problems with that if it's needed, but I'd much rather see us carrying on as we are.

5 more years?????? YES PLEASE

Give Brendan Rodgers five years to establish a new dynasty... in League Two. God bless him and his project!

Liverpool were very unlucky again. Brilliant stuff.

The Shite are 38 points from safety. At their current rate of progress they should be OK around Easter 2015.

I want to send some helpful e-mails to one or two acquaintances making them aware of the payments their team will get to help cushion the initial drop. Can anyone help?

This time last season I thought it may have been time for Moyes to leave Everton and for us to start a new chapter in our history. When he came to the club he gave us our pride back and increased expectation to the point that we no longer just hoped to avoid relegation (as we did through most of the 90s) but instead we expected Europe via the league in addition to some cup runs.

Unfortunately we had gone stale in the last couple of seasons. It was clear for about 3 years that we needed pace anywhere but particularly down the right. Money had been squandered (over the likes of Bilyaletdinov) and the football at the start of last season was painful to watch.

So, this time last season I would have seen him go. Then the January transfer window opens. We didn't get the quick winger we needed and instead signed a player Man U fans universally wanted rid off, claiming he was one of the worst players ever to don the shirt and we also got a slow striker. We got Pienaar in as well but I still feared for our future. Thankfully Moyes proved why I am a fan and he is the manager and not only did the signings turn around our fortunes but did so in style, playing the best football I have seen from the club in my years of attendance at Goodison (92 was my first season attending games).

We sold Rodwell in the summer, finally signed a winger and are full of confidence. In all probability we will lose Fellaini at the end of the season, but we will get a heft fee, hopefully most of which will be reinvested.

Mr Moyes has now built a side that can be both pragmatic and creative. I feel, maybe not this season but in the next 2 or 3 (if he stays) we shall win that trophy we all crave. I also think we will get European football, something all big clubs should aspire to every season.

I hope Moyes signs a new contract and takes us forward in the manner he has done in the last 9 months.

"We come not to play" – Liverpool marketing campaign 2012.

Haha - Nelson, Simpsons, 1990s.

Spot on, Jon. I was fairly dismayed by those signings, but he has proved us wrong.

Fellaini isn't going to be around for long based on current form, although we should get a big old fee to renew the squad where needed.

The guy frustrates me like hell at times but based on the last year or do I'd say yes. The team finally has balance but he needs to stop being so loyal to his favourites; every man and his dog can see Neville isn't up to the job in midfield.

Tony,
16M year one.
16M year two.
8M year three.
8M year four.

I apologise for offending you Roberto, but then again if you are happy to be outplayed by QPR at home then enjoy the experience. There has been plenty over the last ten years. As I clearly said if we carry on attempting to play football how I was brought up to believe that Everton play then yes I would keep him. However West ham playing us off the park at home I don't want.
Just my opinion....

I think (at the monent) id say yes, but I just want him to stop playing Neville in midfield, leave Osman out full stop and may Hibbert as a bench player only. He can hold us back with his faves e,g Cahill should have been sold 2 years ago. Sadly though with or without Moyes, in 5 years time we will still have Kenwright, no new owner, no money and still in a dilapidated Goodsion Park, with the Bullens closed.

Given that Moyes has had over 10 years at this club and won nothing I do not think we should be too eager in handing him a long term contract again.

Moyes luckily has done us a favour in stalling the contract talk until end of season.
I think it is for the best, Moyes saves us a year of a salary bump, and we get to judge Moyes at a time when he has to deliver.
Yes, he has brought in players, but until he can get us back into europe again I think we are better off not paying 65.000 a week for a manager that has not won a single trophy in over 10 years at Everton.

In the end all that matters to me is that we qualify for europe each year and I also want us to win the League Cup or FA cup.

During this season Moyes will have to perform if he is to convince me that he deserves a 5 year contract with a salary bump on top of the 65.000 a week he already has.

Moyes could be aiming for a club with more money then us, but I would not be that worried if he ended up leaving.
Plenty of average managers out there, the only problem is Kenwright picking who would be our next manager!

Thanks Steve (534)

Some goos ammunition there. That means that the Shite can spend two years' money on a shite striker to give away after a few months.

They remind me of Woody Allen's definition of a stockbroker: someone who invests your money until it's all gone.

Sam Hoare you don't half talk shite sometimes mate. Lambert or Rodgers... are you mad? Why would we want a Redshite reject manager? Lambert is already being found out at Villa in his second season syndrome... How about the likes of Poyet or the crazy Italian at Swindon? Fuck Rodgers and all other RS managers...

As for Moyes being a legend, lets wait untill he beats Liverpool at Anfield — something even Walter Smith managed.

Tony Marsh, well said.

Brendan Rodgers? Haha. I think we should go after Rafa when Moyesie eventually leaves myself.....

You're right Tony, why would we want Rodgers, never mind Lambert. I'm with you with Poyet and Di Canio too. I can accept your reticence regarding Moyes too.

So there's a lot of no, no, no, even the one we've got I do think so no. But what's your solution? Cock on the block your choice is.............?

Replacing Moyes is going to be a hell of a task, and something that done badly could be the start of a decline that puts us out of the Premier League. That isn't gusto, just fact.

I think the phrase is slim pickings. If Newcastle, Sunderland, Villa, or us, lost their manager, the list of candidates is pretty uninspiring. Up and coming managers are pretty light on the ground. Di Canio would be mildly entertaining at least.

Interview after the Swansea game, Moyes says that ten minutes into the second half he was willing the lads to get number three and kill the game off. That does strike me as a sign of a changing mind-set.

I think in previous years, he would have been shutting up shop after the break (or even at 1-0!)

He knows he now has a team capable of taking the like of Swansea to the cleaners though. You could see when he was asked about Mirallas, that he knows he's unearthed another absolute gem there!

Well done Moyes... you've made a believer out of me again. I admit I was calling for his head last year, but I all I have seen since January is a man who is getting pretty much everything right, both on and off the pitch.

Paul@540

Best not to act on what you believe but rather the reality of how Everton have played over the years. Then you will have realistic expectations.

I'm actually shitting myself at the prospect of Moyes *not* signing another contract. That's how much progress we've made in the last 9 months. I just hope this new attacking free flowing football isn't just Moyes putting himself in the shop window.

I don't think he has changed much as a manager, it's just that he has better players to choose from.

We're playing some fantastic football,and everytime we go forward now, I'm expecting us to score, its edge of the seat stuff, something we have hardly had under Moyes, so fair play to him. 5 more years? Well.........we'll see.

Disagree Tony J.

In my opinion, it is an entirely different (football) philosophy and one that imho we could (and should) have adopted a long time ago.

Some of the players we have bought recently are no doubt better than some of those that have left, but it is too easy to say they're better now so we play better football.

It's about a style of football.

On the deck, confident, attacking, passing and moving rather than safety first (ie: square, square, square, lump, head-tennis, huff-puff hope for a free kick in a 'dangerous' position)

ie: Swansea, Blackpool and (to a degree) WBA have tried to play 'football' in recent seasons whereas Stoke haven't.

Yes Blackpool went down but I believe, even without our present crop, we had better players than all of them and should have been trying something more entertaining than what was actually on offer.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm just happy to see us playing what I consider intelligent 'Everton football'.

A good start to the season no doubt, some good performances undoubtedly, plus a poor performance, but in reality only Man U are genuinely top 6 - and I would suggest on their performances against us, Fulham and the RS not forgetting the greeks, they might be living on borrowed time perhaps. The football is without question better than the dross that was served before Xmas last season, but the big questions have not been answered:
Has he the balls to win a trophy?
Can he win an away match at the sky 4?
Will he go defensive against the sides in the top 6 as he has done for the last 10 years? - no forwards on the pitch vs City anyone?

Its much more pleasing on the eye and far more enjoyable, but 'summers and swallows' spring to mind and I for one will not get carried away suggesting he has seen the light after just 5 games. 5 more years based on 5 games seems a little bit of an over reaction.

I still feel we've played as well on the very odd occasion in the past when, by accident or design, the team Moyesey's put out broke out of the "game plan" - that's acknowledging we've a far better balance now and have forward players who can interchange readily and effectively

Recently, we've started taking quick throw-ins!
For me, I will know his philosophy has changed for the good when he leaves a forward on the half-way line when we defend a corner

(cue: "but that'll leave us a man short at the back!")

Tony Marsh- I'm quite flattered I managed to provoke you onto here at such a time of optimism!

As for talking shite, people in glasshouses and all that.

Of course taking an ex RS manager is not ideal but I still reckon Rodgers will prove himself a great manager. Hopefully not at Liverpool but at some time in the next 5 years.

Not sure how you can say Lambert has been found out after 5 games?! The guy inherited a terrible team and was given no or little money, give him a chance!

Poyet and Di canio could be decent shouts but personally I would prefer someone with premier league or top European experience at the helm myself rather than take a punt on a first division manager.

To be fair... The real change in the side has coincided with Cahill moving out and us buying a right winger. People on this site have been screaming for those changes to be made for years.

Moyes is a decent manager, but he still has his limitations. However, if he keeps the team playing decent football then I'd be happy for him to renew... on the 20% pay cut he preached about, of course!

Eugene, we tried the tippy tappy football before when we had Saha/Yak/Cahill up top,.....we usually got beat 1-0 with the other teams only attack.

To me, he comes across as always wanting to improve the football but the players he had couldn't do it enough and therefore after several disappointing starts where we were called Arsenal Lite with few points to show for it, he went back to the tried and tested keep it tight etc

We now have a forward who can do what AJ used to do but he can do it a whole lot better and he trusts him.

We have a midfield now who are comfortable with the ball and also have that bit of steel that all teams need, we have exciting players coming through.

I stand by my first view, I don't think he has changed much, he just has superior players who can actually hold the ball instead of treating it like a hot potato........yes Jags, I'm looking at you, or doing a Rhinoesque floaty pass....yes Neville, that's you!

Oh come on Tony (680) you're better than that - disingenuous in the extreme.

'The tippy-tappy football'?

That is HARDLY what we're playing right now.

In fact the 'tippy-tappy' I indirectly acknowledged - see, "square, square, square".

I'm not after tippy-tappy, as (by itself), it has no intelligence, pace, incisiveness or penetration.

The tippy-tappy we have played in the past nb: (the tippy-tappy you suggest led to us losing games 1-0) had NONE of these qualities.

It was basically tippy-tappy with fear and there's a WORLD of difference between the tippy-tappy of..

"Er..I don't want it, here you have it, no I don't want it, you have...""

And the tippy-tappy of "Give it to me, give me a runner either side, now you fucking GO!"

BIG difference

Everton's Last 5 games: WWLDW

Liverpool's last 5 games: LMFAO

Steve,

LMFDO

("laughed my fuckin' dentures out" for the old gets on here)

Ciarán, I agree completely.

In some respects its not rocket science. Our team has lacked basic balance for years. Balance which teams assembled for a fraction of the price have. For years we've had no pace, too many players playing out of position and players who don't perform yet still aren't moved on or given time out. Most fans must've spotted it. Why did it take Moyes so many years to correct?

As regards Neville; he shouldn't be near the first team except as right back. We may have done well against swansea and newcastle with him in there, but he weakens the team imho. Someone like Junior at least deserves a chance. Key players for us at the moment are basically Fellaini, Baines and (especially)Pienaar....and they're all playing really well, so its not surprising we're picking up points.

The management have done exceptionally well over the last 9 months or so in terms of transfer dealings, results and performances, but just like watching a hungry, free-scoring Anichebe, you wonder if its a "blip" as we wait for normal service to resume, or perhaps the sign of them actually stepping up to the next level?

If it isn't a blip then its a real chance for us to move into a top 4 place. Man U look very, very average. It was almost embarrassing watching them get outplayed against 10 man RS. Giggs? Scholes? Charlton next? RS look like they're gonna be fighting a relegation battle for the foreseeable future....so Man City and Chelsea apart, I don't see any nailed on teams for a top 4 place this season.

In summary, when you watch how we've been playing the last 9 months you hope its because the management had a plan and executed it well.....but based on the evidence of the past 5 years there is the lingering doubt that those in charge just happened to stumble upon a winning formula with no idea how to keep it going.

P.S. I wouldn't worry about Moyes jumping ship. He's got it too good at Everton. One of the best paid managers in the league, probably the most secure job in the league and no pressure from Kenwright to actually win anything.

I want him to serve two decades at the club; respected by every single one of his peers, David Moyes has provided the sort of league returns that would have been the stuff of fantasy during the 90's.

Naturally, he's been slaughtered almost every year for this by those who value style over substance; but they fail to mention that the type of football played under his administration pisses all over the genuine bile served up by Smith.

Now, the faint praise being offered by his long-time critics is predicated by the fallacious notion that Moyes now sees things 'their way.' Rather than simply giving due credit, you lot are now claiming that he's either accidentally stumbled onto a winning formula, has experienced some sort of conversion, or finally listened to what you've been 'saying for years.'

Hubris, pure and simple.

Well-founded hubris.

Wayne Smith #743 "In some respects it's not rocket science. Our team has lacked basic balance for years. Balance which teams assembled for a fraction of the price have. For years we've had no pace, too many players playing out of position and players who don't perform yet still aren't moved on or given time out. Most fans must've spotted it. Why did it take Moyes so many years to correct?"

That's so much generalised, unfocussed, shit it doesn't even allow a reasoned response. Which years? Balance between what and what? Which other teams have assembled? For how much? NO pace?! "Aren't moved on" - but "playing out of position" – are they chossing to play out of position against orders?!

And that's only one paragraph!
"Key players for us at the moment are basically Fellaini, Baines and (especially) Pienaar....and they're all playing really well, so it's not surprising we're picking up points". So just 3 players make a successful team?!

Jeez!

Wayne - you say it's not rocket science but then complain that DM has simply "stumbled on a winning formula". Yeah, that's what successful managers do! They don't always have a brilliant plan and execute it perfectly because football is not chess or... rocket science.

I suspect Kendall stumbled on the Steven/Reid/Bracewell/Sheedy combination. It wasn't random, he experimented intelligently and then when he found something that worked - or looked as though it might work - he perservered with it. Fair play to him. SAF has had some major screw ups in the transfer market - it was trial and error to an extent: "Let's see if it works, A + B + C" - but no one could say he's not a successful manager.

As to whether DM can keep it going, well it's early days isn't it. Too early for people to be getting carried away and talking about giving him a new 5 year contract, and too early to say that he doesn't have the managerial nous to keep it going.

Kevin, Moyes has served up his fair share of bile. Also,I don't see any previous critics of Moyes(myself included) saying that he has seen things our way. It seems,to me, obvious that Moyes has changed his philosophy.

We played good football at the end of last season and surely no one could suggest that Jelavic and Gibson made the difference. I believe that Moyes has reached a lets fucking have a go stage ; he's had an epiphany, a dream or some such nonsense, but no one will convince me that this is the same man who presided over the dirge that started last season/

Kevin Hudson (760) - what a total crock.

Talk about 'bile', you seem incapable of seeing any grey, the world it appears for you is black or white and....that's it.

I think your piece says everything about you and nothing much about anything else.

You should have just posted "I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong" (it would have been more subtle).

You kick off..

"I want him to serve two decades at the club; respected by every single one of his peers"

Really?

Well I don't give a fuck who 'respects' him (or who pats him on the head) or how many decades he 'serves'.

I want Everton to win trophies and if that's not possible, I want us to try by playing intelligent entertaining football.

You continue..

"David Moyes has provided the sort of league returns that would have been the stuff of fantasy during the 90's".

Er...better results certainly, but 'the stuff of fantasy'?

Is THAT what we've been watching under Moyes - the stuff of fantasy (really!?)

And here comes a bit of (dead fucking obvious) sleight-of-hand.

"Naturally, he's been slaughtered almost every year for this by those who value style over substance; but they fail to mention that the type of football played under his administration pisses all over the genuine bile served up by Smith".

Bullshit for two reasons.

1) It HASN'T 'pissed all over the genuine bile served up by Smith'

Better yes, but for much of the time, not better by fucking much (ie: pisses all over)

True under Smith we saw dull, scared, pointless football with barely no invention or intelligence.

But It's ALSO true we've seen a lot of the same under Moyes.

2) Also is that REALLY what those who have criticised Moyes' tactics have been - those who simply values 'style over substance'?

Well you know what - fair enough, because last season, in terms of results, style DID piss all over 'substance'.

(for 'substance', see obvious, dumb football lacking ideas or incisiveness).

You continue..

"Now, the faint praise being offered by his long-time critics is predicated by the fallacious notion that Moyes now sees things 'their way.'"

This is another desperate bit of bollocks that has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with YOU and how YOU think.

As Andy Crooks suggests (780), critics of Moyes' tactics (pre Swansea last year) AREN'T saying "HA! Now he's doing what I told him to do", they're simply enjoying watching Everton play intelligent, confident football and have stated this (something that obviously bugs the shit out of you)

However the BIG giveaway in your post is contained in two words in the next paragraph.

"Rather than simply giving due credit, you lot are now claiming that he's either accidentally stumbled onto a winning formula, has experienced some sort of conversion, or finally listened to what you've been 'saying for years.'"

'You lot'?

Sorry but what a nob you sound.

There are many (like me) who have criticised Moyes' tactics, who (nb: now that his tactics have changed) are now saying 'it's great to see us playing good stuff and as long as it continues, I'm happy'.

And....that's it.

Sorry to disappoint you but there's no secret Moyes-hater society - just Evertonians who want (and wanted) to see the team play intelligent football.

(your bitter little post actually reads a little like you've been let down by the change in tactics - you know, now that he's dropped all that 'substance')

Hubris pure and simple?

Stupidity and ego pure and simple!

Eugene.

Pot, kettle, black?

Well done Martin Mason (818) for posting what is, without doubt, the lamest, dumbest, laziest thing that can be posted on any forum on any subject.

Tip - Why don't you give SPECIFIC examples of my pot kettleness and I'll respond to them.

(also we know 'black' so 'pot-kettle' will usually suffice)

We are the most exciting team to watch in the Premiership so far this season with the possible exception of Arsenal in full flow. But as a neutral I would have bloody loved both the games that I saw last week.

Praise and criticism shoud be handed out when deserved and that is what is happening this year, or even since January with the exception of a couple of derby games.

There seems to be a belief that people need to put themselves in either a pro or against Moyes camp and are never allowed to express an opinion beyond that, I've criticised and moaned about him on here but I'm more than happy tp praise him at the moment.

One other thing, I would like to say something poitive about the people running our football club. When I see the obscene transfer fees being paid across the park for very poor quality players and we have brought in Jelavic, Gibson, Miralles and Naismith for less than the price of Borini, you have to hand out some credit. They will end up on serious financial trouble if this carries on and we will continue to work within our means and playing the game sensibly.

Eugene, you say that there's no secret Moyes hater society and while your right about it not being secret you have to admit that there are those on here who have over the last few years have shown if not hate then a very strong and consistent dislike for him.

As another of Moyes' fans I can see Kevins point a bit. I don't see that Moyes has suddenly undergone some sort of revelation. More that he has a playing staff now that allows for a better brand of football. We played a similar style a few seasons back when we had Arteta, Pienaar et al and reached the FA cup final but then that team got broken up. Surely the proff of this is that we started playing this football the moment Moyes was given some money last season and able to bring in Pienaar, Gibson and Jelavic.

Well said Eugene Ruane # 815 . It is indeed very welcome to see Everton performing as we like to see them do and it is a stark contrast to the way we have begun too many seasons under Moyes. I sincerely hope Moyes has had a 'Road to Damascus' moment and that Evertons new found attacking attractive football persists. But like you and any other sane man I reserve my right to criticise if and when things go wrong in the future. Blind sycophancy like Kevin's is such a pitiable state for any man or supporter.

A pitiable state Peter? Not sure bout that!

I reckon someone full of praise and optimism (even if misguided) is likely to be a hell of alot happier than someone full of criticism and cynicism. Don't you know that smiling is scientifically proven to make you feel happier. Try it. You never know.

@ Sam Hoare # 826 . To paraphrase Kipling 'If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs . Then you obviously don't realise the gravity of the situation'
Perpetually blind optimists are certain of one thing perpetual disappointment. Far better to be a realist giving praise when its due and criticism too when it is due.

I love the footy we're playing at the moment {even with it's seemingly defensive frailty} and under Moyes, we have shown glimpses of it in the past.
This season does seem to be different, Moyes attitude is much more positive than in previous seasons, fuck me, I actually witnessed him share a little joke with a journalist the other day, {my instant thought was that he was holding a spliff just out of camera shot}or maybe Mrs M is on the HRT and getting frisky again, or more likely, he feels or knows he now has a better squad.
I've got no problem with things carrying on just the way they are for now, but handing out another 5 year contract? not so sure on that one.

Sam (823) he (Moyes) certainly does currently have a playing staff that allows for better football.

However personally (as I've stated earlier, (specifically in answer to Tony J - see 660) I believe we could have (nb: and should have) adopted this 'philosophy' earlier.

I don't say results would have been better, or that we'd have won anything, but I believe results would have been no worse and we'd have had a LOT more to applaud during games and more to talk about after games.

The idea (Kevin simplistically suggests) that Moyes critics just hate the man, were after 'style' for it's own sake and wanted to get rid of 'substance' (whatever substance is supposed to mean) is, imo, gibberish.

And Sam, you let yourself down with comments like this.

"I reckon someone full of praise and optimism (even if misguided) is likely to be a hell of alot happier than someone full of criticism and cynicism"

This assumes that an Evertonian, on a forum for Evertonians, who posts something that is not fulsome praise, lives the life of a miserable, depressed, cynic.

A tremendous leap of 'logic' and consequently, sheer nonsense.

When things go right, it's natural for humans to be happy.

When they go wrong, it's natural for them to be miserable.

People who are happy no matter what the circumstances?

Often on strong medication or big fans of Tom Cruise.

Eugene, I take your point. My view is that Moyes is a very practical man who would like to play good football but did not feel he had players capable of playing good passing football and still picking up points. He may have been wrong about this but there are lots of examples of teams (such as Blackpool) who attempt to play in this style and end up losing out in the long term. Difficult to say what may or might not have been but my feeling is that Moyes has always wanted to play in this style where possible but puts practicality first and has therefore at times trusted in experience over youth and safety over risk when he feels its more likely to garner the points. I think that our league finishes when compared to our wage/transfer spends do vindicate this approach to some degree. Though God knows there have been times when I have cursed Moyes and his 'practical' approach.

Kevin
"...would have been the stuff of fantasy during the 90's"
C'mon Kevin, you're old enough to remember when we sacked managers who performed better than Moysey

Sam the 'eternal optimist' usually resides in a universe of his own emotional or medically induced creation . The inability ever to see anything wrong with a man is just as illogical as the perpetual pessimist who can never see anything right. Neither state of mind is natural.

Someone needs to tell the pot to stop being racist. Time to shake handles?

Eugene, spot on, particularly in reference to the difference between 'tippy tappy' football and what we are playing.
Wigan completed over 500 passes at the weekend, the highest of any team, yet lost 2 0 to Fulham.
It's all well and good playing like that but having a flaky defence and impotent forward line will get you nowhere.
From what we've seen so far, we are playing with intelligence and penetration and getting results too. Long may it continue.

Eugene @819

I could see that you were boiling over like a "pot' and steaming like a "kettle" as well as giving Kevin "Black" looks

Peter Barry #829. Paraphrase is to give the same meaning in a different form. So you didn't paraphrase Mr Kipling. Interestingly the first lines in full are:
"IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,..."

Peter. You may be right. But my point is I bet the optimist will be alot happier than the pessimist. Therefore whilst something close to reality is always good I would err on the side of optimism.

Using Moyes' own guide to our start, how many points would we people be happy with after 10 games? That takes in Southampton (H), Wigan (A), QPR (A), LIverpool (H) and Fulham (A).
Unfortunately, the toughest of these games (on paper) are the last two and if a poor derby performance was to be followed by a defeat away to Fulham then people's minds might change.
We then have a nice wee run of winnable games before the mother of all bad runs of fixtures in November.
I'm reserving judgement on Moyes until after the derby game. I expect we should have 21 points after 10 games. I'd be happy with that.
But I think the real test will come in the last third of the season. If we're in a strong position, how will Moyes approach United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea away from home?

Strictly what you say is true Brent but I did it to inject some humour in to the discussion. Maybe I should have just said 'with apologies to Kipling' instead.

Sam Hoare# 844 of course the 'perpetual optimist' is happier than the 'perpetual pessimist' that is a logical given. But an optimist who is still happy with NOTHING to be optimistic about is just deluded.

Peter, there's always something to be happy about. Just as there is always something to grumble about. Its just which you choose to focus on.

I'd be more than happy to see Moyes at the helm for a few years more.

On a separate note has anyone else seen the article in the Huffington Post about Suarez diving, think it may have been written by a blue,,,

I think what's getting under the skin of those who've defended Moyes regardless is not a single oft quoted excuse has changed.

No new money, new ground or russian billionaire, the only discernable change is in Moyes.

We ALL applaud it ..... it's just some of us think it's long overdue.

Peter (Barry) sorry, mate, I need to loosen up a bit!

Sam you are going way off topic we are talking about Everton's performances which Moyes is supposed to tactically manage. At the moment things are going fine and we are producing attractive attacking football so Moyes and the team deserve the credit and praise for that . If however he reverts to his 'norm' and plays KITAP1 or bottles a Derby game then he will deserve to be criticised and no wooly wishful Pythonesque 'Always look on the bright side of life' thinking will excuse it or make it any less painful.

Really don't understand the myth that all the new players Moyes now has at his disposal have made us play attacking football.

A midfield of Neville, Osman, Pienaar, Fellaini, along with Anichebe as a striker???

There is only Mirallas out of those who have not been in our starting eleven for years FFS!!! (Pienaar had a break, but was in the side for years before that.)

My opinion is that after years of shit starts, Moyes being passed over for the Spurs post and the possibilty of this being Moyes's last season have all contributed to a change of heart.

Anyone who comes on here and says Moyes has not been a defensive minded manager is talking utter shite. This does not take anything away fro his record – which is admirable given his resources.

I know for a fact we played some games throughout his tenure which have been unbearable to watch – games without a shot on target.

He has changed his outlook – and long may it continue.

If you can name a game away from home in the PL where we have had 30 attempts on goal and played 4-3-3 please let me know.

No probs Brent

Kevin I agree with you, I think not getting the Spurs job hurt Moyes and forced him into a rethink. I don't agree with people who say he was only defensive because of the players he had. For starters they were his players, he has bought them all so if any of them can't kick a ball then thats his fault.

Blackpool played attacking football with about 3 players at most who were Premiership standard so there was no excuse for no playing football with some of the players we've had. Before someone says it Blackpool were relegated because they had no right getting promoted in the first place not because they tried to attack.

I am very happy with how this season is going so far, some of the football we're playing is great and we finally have a player with genuine pace and flair in Mirallas. Obviously he hasn't changed completely, he still has his favourites that play no matter what and he is still the only person in the world who thinks Neville is a midfielder.

Do I want him here another 5 years?

No and i'll never change my mind about Moyes. He has burnt too many bridges and I cant stand him but at least I don't want to put my foot through the tele when he comes on the screen, well till the derby anyway.

Kevin,

Is there any substance to this 'Moyes' last season' possibility' stuff? Is it because he hasn't yet signed a contract? Do we know he has refused one? Do we know if there is one on the table? Do you have any up-to-date information?

I would have thought that the way things are going currently, in comparison with what has happened in previous years, it is extremely unlikely that he would walk.

Also, he came to the London Supporters' Gourp meeting a few years ago and said that he would stay as long as he was wanted. Things change of course.

Group. I must get the spillchock working on my computer.

Barry Rathbone 850, how can you say nothing has changed?!

Before last January Moyes had not been given any money to spend on first teamers for 2 years! Then he was given money to sign Pienaar, Gibson Jelavic and then Mirallas. Very quickly we were playing good football.

Not huge money perhaps but don't underestimate the effect that these players have had on our turnaround in form and confidence. For the last two seasons things had gone very stale but IMO that due primarily to lack of funds.

Peter 853, the difference is that I accept and expect there will be mistakes made and will not be so quick or vitriolic in my criticism as you. Shit happens. I certainly won't claim that Moyes should leave as you have many times.

Tony

I think its a fair assessment that BK thinks the sun shines out of Moyes's arse so why hasn't he offered him a contract when he's now well inside his final 12 months?

Imo and based on nothing other than he has left than a year on his contract is that he has told BK he is not interested in signing a new deal. I believe he is waiting to see if he can change the negative perception of him over this season and get a job with money to spend.

Moyes has said its not a big deal that he hasn't signed a new deal but I don't remember him getting this close to the end of a contract before. If a player says its not a big deal he only has 12 months left and theres plenty of time to sort a new deal out.

Would you believe them or think their trying to say the right things but really all they want to do is piss off at the end off the season for nothing?

Why should we think differently of managers if their doing the same as players?

Tony #859

Moyes said a few weeks ago something along the lines of: he's in no rush to sign a new contract and it will sort itself out when the time is right.

That represents a change in his previous attitude; I seem to remember him saying last time that it was important to get the contract sorted quickly, so that the players and staff know there will be continuity and stability at the club (something like that anyway).

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I think Moyes is assessing his options. I also agree with others that not being considered for the Spurs job may have changed his outlook on the way the game should be played.

I do think he will sign a new contract, but I'm convinced it will be shorter than the last two.

"Really don't understand the myth that all the new players Moyes now has at his disposal have made us play attacking football." — If it's not the new players, how do you explain that the upturn in performances started just after we bought Gibson, Jelavic and Pienaar?

Paul,

Your post raises the additional point that as things go on, sometime during this season, Moyes not having a new contract could unsettle the players.

It is a bit much to expect him to be encouraging players to stay if they think that he himself could be off faster than a rat up a drainpipe.

Steve #859

Moyes last contract was a long drawn out affair. The MOB claimed this was because he was looking to be paid more & partly blamed our bad start to the season on it. The apologists claimed Moyes was simply using the delay as leverage to obtain concessions regarding transfer funds and/or control over team matters from Blue Bill. Either way...it wasn't sorted quickly.

Peter, who on here has stated that Moyes is beyond reproach? Every stout defender of Moyes has still blasted him for decisions made in games, team selections and dodgy substitutions.

That is where there is a difference, the "Moyesettes" etc etc can still discuss the man's shortcomings; however a lot of the MOB will only criticise and seemingly not even offer begrudging praise.

It's the usual, we lose because of him and win in spite of him attitude.

TBH, I thought our upturn in form, really kicked-in (excepting the semi-final debacle), after the non-performance at Anfield, when DM got so much grief. We seemed to play a much more incisive and expansive passing game from then on, and have carried it into this season.

Tony J - see midfield against Swansea. Gibson & Jelavic were not in the side & didn't Pienaar play for us for about 5 years previously ?

Don't you think there has been a massive change in the way the team is set up to play ?

The last 7 or 8 years has seen Cahill playing behind a main striker in a consistant 4-5-1.

If we have played any differently, I must have misssed that game.

Tony

Well if it is his intention to move clubs come the end of the season then I doubt he would be encouraging players to stay, just as long as they stay while he's there.

Brendan #872

Fair enough mate, I do remember him saying something along those lines, maybe he was talking about players...

I've just worked out that I've probably drank about 342 gallons of lager along with a few stronger "straighteners" now and again since he signed his last contract. Given that my memory is now being badly affected by it, I'm determined to reduce that by at least two gallons over the next five years (although after a week, I'll probably forget I said that)!

Tony - "That is where there is a difference, the "Moyesettes" etc etc can still discuss the man's shortcomings; however a lot of the MOB will only criticise and seemingly not even offer begrudging praise".

That, in my view, is as one-eyed a take as anything posted by anyone on either 'side'.

Arguments/debates on TW (particularly re Moyes) tend to be "I think this, you think the opposite".

If we're lucky, some will provide a few facts and figures to substantiate/strengthen their opinion

To suggest that one side (ie: your side) is more reasonable and discerning is imo nonsense.

My (nb: vast) experience of these debates is Moyes' shortcomings have not been 'discussed' by 'Moysettes', but at best glossed over and at worst, totally ignored.

Possibly why the term apologist rather 'discusser'' became prevalent.

Another thought: has anybody noticed we are playing so much better without Cahill in the team?

Don't get me wrong – he was a great servant to the club over the years but, for the last couple of years, Davey's blind loyalty keeping him in the team when he was not capable of producing cost us dearly, I believe.

Agree with that Peter, Moyes is incredibly loyal to his players – which may have held him back in the past.

Peter, that I agree with you totally about. Moyes's loyalty to Cahill was unproductive and it's no coincidence we are playing better without him. Moyes's reliance on his favourites is one flaw I can agree with.

The truth is that when it comes to Moyes we can only raise opinions, to raise schoolboy insults like "Moysettes" and "apologists" for those who have a good word for him is infantile as it infers that those slinging these names around the playground somehow have a more valid opinion that those being accused.

Yes Moyes has been guilty of playing his favourites for too long but if it's true it's a noble failing of a man showing loyalty to those who've served him well. As it happens when I suggested on here a few years back that Tim was past his best and had to go, not only past his best but that his whole presence unbalanced the side I was shouted down. Is Pip past his best? That's a matter of opinion; Hibbert? Same again I'm afraid.

All I'll say is that when you look at the hard facts surrounding how Everton has performed against the only possible metric - How much they have spent, then Moyes has done well; if you also look where we are in terms of squad strength and production line of talent coming through the club then I believe that any rational fan could only say that Moyes has done bloody well? If you ask rational fans outside of the club or any knowledgeable football pundit or any other successful manager then to a man they will say that Moyes has done brilliantly. In fact I'd raise the opinion that only a WUM could raise the opinion that Moysie has been anything other than a great asset for the club.

Has he made mistakes? Of course, he's human but like every other fan Moyes knows infinitely more than me when it comes to soccer. Could he have done better? Nobody could possibly know the answer to that because it is impossible to know the answer.

Without stating the obvious for me it’s a mixture of*:

Saha OUT Jelavic IN

Gibson IN

Fellaini coming of age and being able to play to his strengths, thanks mainly to Gibson.

Both of the above in, essentially for FREE

Pienaar BACK and linking up again with Baines

COMPETITION between 3 good centre halves for 2 places.

Cahill OUT no longer causing Moyes a dilemma

Getting all of the business above DONE in good time for the star of the season

Having a nice blend of new blood, old blood, consistency, a new buzz and plenty of EVERTONIANS to lift the spirit (and I include Pip etc in that).

Moyes getting looked over AGAIN when a “big” job comes along

Getting HUMILIATED by LFC last season having a seismic effect on Moyes and his desire to come back fighting.

Moyes and the squad waking up and smelling the coffee that something had to give, and if they didn’t start GOING FOR IT they’d never win anything, never, no way, no how and between them they’ve decided they want a lot more and are going to GO FOR IT.

And it may even have something to do with David Weir, and cant believe I’m saying it, Duncan Ferguson having some input behind the scenes too.

*apologies for the CAPITALS – started and I just couldn’t stop….

Perhaps before signing, Moyes is waiting to milk some more money for transfers out of Bill.

If that is the case I think he is milking the cow's left hoof. It doesn't matter how much he milks, or how much the cow would like to give, if there's no milk there ...

Martin — "how Everton has performed against the only possible metric — How much they have spent"

Surely another measurement would be what talent he had available

First Moyesettes, now Masonettes...

(I'll get me coat!)

More one-eyed, completely skewed nonsense from Martin 'that's why fans don't run football clubs' Mason (887).

Jesus Martin, do you think out ANY of your stuff or (as it seems) immediately start hammering away at the keys as soon as you see something you don't like?

You..

"The truth is that when it comes to Moyes we can only raise opinions, to raise schoolboy insults like "Moysettes" and "apologists" for those who have a good word for him is infantile as it infers that those slinging these names around the playground somehow have a more valid opinion that those being accused"

Well firstly, I had (I don't think) never even SEEN seen the word "Moysettes" until this morning when it was used by Tony J Williams - nb: a BIG Moyes supporter/defender.. whatever (clue: I put Moysettes in inverted commas)

And why do I say one-eyed?

Because you COMPLETELY (nb: and obviously deliberately) ignore similar 'infantile' expressions used by those who (God help them) think like you.

Those with some daft notion that they exist on some moral high-ground and who (seemingly) can't post without informing us how fantastically positive they are and how it takes more muscles to frown than to smile..etc fucking blah

(by the way, all that 'rational fans outside the club' and 'knowledgeable pundits' - what a load content-free flannel)

Simple question - does 'Moyes-hater' sound familiar?

Does the 'MOB' look familiar?

Right so THEY'RE fine but...'apologist' isn't?

Well you can argue until you're red in the grid and apply all the tuppenny-ha'penny 'logic' you want - one name is no more or less infantile than another and BOTH 'sides' use them.

Tip - why not spend more than 4 seconds between reading a post and responding.

Who knows, if you do, you might end up posting an argument that isn't piss-weak and full of holes.

(awaits another searing "TOUCHÉ!"-style zinger along the lines of 'pot, kettle, black?')

Martin # 887, well done. By acknowledging that it is impossible to know if Moyes could have done better you are at least accepting that is a possibility. I believe it is a probability but that is a matter of opinion.

On the same lines would you accept that if Moyes had gone instead of signing his last contract it is at least possible that some one else might have done a better job.

Mike # 900. Bringing in a Man Utd reserve who goes on to make Fellaini into a much better player suggests that Moyes is incredibly lucky or a genius. I prefer to give him credit for totally changing his mind set.

Finally, Mike, clearly an oversight on your part, but we have 4 good centre backs competing for two places.

Andy #914 - I think its a mixture of all of the things I listed, and more that were' not party to probably.

In the case of Gibson I think to an extent he was very lucky (in that he became available to buy for £500k and that he seems to be one of the major galvanising factors this year) - but credit him with making his own luck and being in the positioin to recognise him and pick him up when no one else did. So a little bit of "genius" there too.

Finally, I apologise, you're right. How could I forget Mr Duffy? :)

Oh Eugene. Tony J, (883) is voicing how a lot of us feel about the debate surrounding Moyes. Almost all support and defence of Moyes contains an acknowledgement of his shortcomings or frustrations, as does Martin's immediately afterwards, but those who criticise Moyes very rarely have anything positive to say about him. They tend to write off anything good that happens as lucky, down to something else, or the least we should expect anyway.

And yes, Moyes-hater and MOB are fine, why wouldn't they be? They describe someone who hates Moyes (or certainly seems to from the tone of their posts - 'Ginger Tosser' anyone?) and people who have openly stated they wanted him to go and speculated on who to replace him with. Why wouldn't we use them? 'Moyesettes' I've never seen before now but clearly it is infantile and demeaning, being suggestive of a bunch of giggling young girls, and shouldn't be used. Apologist is more complicated, initially it is unappealing because it seems to infer that there is something to 'apologise' for, which I would object to. In and of itself however, it simply means to defend something, in which case it is perfectly reasonable. My own experience of the word however, and how it seems to have been used, is in defending things that to a greater or lesser extent shouldn't be defended. The three examples I'm familiar with are Christianity, Nazism and Totalitarian Communisim. For it to be suggested that by defending our manager we're the same type of thing as one who defends either of those things again makes the word slightly distasteful.

I think ultimately it comes down to one basic thing, criticism of Moyes seems to be a lot angrier than defence of him. They are not two equal sides of a debate, the pro-Moyes people have what they want, and that doesn't look likely to change, whereas the anti-Moyes people are unhappy with something they have no power to influence whatsoever. To me at least, it is fairly clear that this leads to a difference in tone, language and debating style between the two 'sides'.

Mike Allison (924)

All subjective.

Nothing wrong with that but (no matter what you think, or how you see it) there is NO moral high-ground when it comes (as it does!) down to 'you think this and I think the opposite'.

Tony is voicing how a lot of us feel?

Agree.

He's also voicing how a lot of us DON'T feel...etc

Up until recently, many (like me) have thought Moyes had underachieved, many believe he'd overachieved.

Arguments have gone back and forth and I can't think of one instance where anyone has posted - "You know, when you put it like that, I change my mind completely - I was wrong and you're right"

Can you?

Personally, I don't give a fuck who calls who an apologist or a Moyes-hater.

But I WILL point out what I see as an obvious double standard - ie: Martin complaining about the use of 'apologist' without acknowledging the use of Moyes-hater.

Put any spin on it you want, it's one half of the 'story', therefore a double-standard

"if you also look where we are in terms of squad strength and production line of talent coming through the club then I believe that any rational fan could only say that Moyes has done bloody well"

Read as: Those 'rational' fans that agree with Martin.

Read as: Those 'rational' fans, pundits and managers, that agree, wholeheartedly, with Martin.

"In fact I'd raise the opinion that only a WUM could raise the opinion that Moysie has been anything other than a great asset for the club."

Read as: All the other gobshites that don't agree with Martin.

What a reasoned and well thought out argument.

Lets face it if he walked out the door at the end of the season the vast majority of Evertonians would be worried. Perhaps not some of the delusional crew who still think we're playing in the 1980s but the majority. If only there was a record of some of the one liners thrown out by people on here when the managerial debate has arisen in the past. Off the top of my head here's a few toffeeweb classics

Moyes should be replaced by Lambert or Rodgers, they play good attacking football a blue print that will work at any level of football, if only they would get their chance with big clubs. (How ironic that looks now)

We've lost out on Kilgallon/ Turner/Nugent/Earnshaw/ Boothroyd to lesser clubs. Dithering Dave as usual has no idea how to seal a deal in the transfer market.

David Moyes ruins attacking players, he cannot handle creative players or strikers, he only buys defenders, his coaching team made up of defenders can only coach defending (Not sure where this current attacking play has come from then, and before Oviedo who was the last defender we bought?)

If Moyes wins it's down to the football lottery, if he loses its his fault

Stoke, QPR, Fulham, Sunderland, and Villa will all definitely overtake us soon because Moyes is leading us to a relegation battle for certain within 12 months

(Before last season's game against Swansea) Moyes is going to get schooled by Rodgers, that P.E teacher doesn't have any tactical acumen whatsoever

It doesn't matter about money or the quality of player, if Moyes would just set us up to attack and give it a go we'd probably be in the top 4. BTW all the players in the team are terrible

Moyes is a terrible manager who only buys defensive players...(and in the same comment)....if any other manager took over this Everton side with all its attacking quality it would be a great team

Moyes doesn't win at the big 4 (he's beaten city and psurs away numerous times)...well that's not the old big 4

Looking at the quality of the squad we'll be lucky not to get relegated this season ...(Moyes makes a press statement aboout finishing in the top ten)....Moyes is then bashed for a lack of ambition

There's many more hilarious quotes/predictions/ expulsions of bile that have been uttered about Moyes on this site. As of yet the majority of them haven't come/ aren't true. For what its worth I would be panicking if he left tomorrow, then having to watch quality player such as Pienaar Baines Jelavic Heitinga all moving on because they came to play for him whilst we get some clueless old school yarddog manager or some young tinkerman who thinks he's the next shankley.

Its so easy being a pessimist, vent your fury all day long when we're not winning and sit there looking smug when we do with the expression 'there you are Moyes now you're finally doing what I told you to do' written across your face. Other sentiments such as 'I'll come back and support the team when they start winning again' also belong to the easy school of football supporting. This period of good form and any prizes this season may bring is not justification for the perennial pessimists, it is/will be a reward for all those who didn't throw their toys out the pram and stuck with Moyes through the last 18 months. The fans who accepted that one downward turn in trajectory over a ten year period didn't warrant an instant dismissal. The fans who realised that although his team has been ripped apart by vultures and the board it wasn't beyond his ability to craft another one out of virtually nothing. Support isn't about disowning the manager whenever you feel like it and then singing his name if he ever paraded a trophy around. If you can't support him through his lows then don't pretend you did during his highs. In his ten years I don't think he's ever lost the core majority of Everton fans.

Dave Roberts (448) just about captures it all — well done, Dave.

I have been watching Everton since John Carey was our manager and I would say Moyes would definitely be in my top 3 or 4 managers of our club. Since he has been here most years we have been in the top 7 not something others with similar budjets have managed to do. Just in the last 2 seasons I have heard fans calling for Coyle,Lambert,Rodgers, non of which are fit to lace Moyes boots in my opinion, and I would suggest that we get him signed up very quickly.

Although I think he has already made up his mind that this could be his last season, and that thought fills me with dread.

Eugene, (815)

A slightly-senile, highly-manipulative & pedantic attack; in which you attempt to paint me as some kind of insidious Machiavelli. For the record, I prefer your ‘funny,’ anecdotes about the 1970’s, but I’ll happily take you on.

First up, you claim that I’m one of those positing the idea that “I’m right and anyone who doesn’t agree with me is wrong.” You follow this with a ream of paragraphs outlining how wrong I am – implying that you’re right instead.

(Nb: One could level that lazy, cop-out line at anyone, or any opinion, about anything… any time; and ignore the blatant hypocrisy at play).

Off to a great start then…you continue with a fickle quibble about a simple piece of hyperbole. Fine, just for your benefit, ‘fantasy,’ can go; Moyes hasn’t re-created the 80’s, but it was fairly obvious that I was providing compelling context for the improvement in football under his stewardship.

This is where the substance (which is an apparent mystery to you) comes into play: 8 top eight finishes in ten years does piss all over Walter Smith’s record, and a better class of football achieved this. I didn’t suggest that it has always been a beautiful watch, but the substantive improvement is indisputable. Fair?

Now to answer to my apparent “BIG giveaway.”

(Nb: I’m a consistent supporter of the work Moyes is doing – wow, mystery solved folks…. by ToffeeWeb’s own Frank Drebin).

You state there is no secret ‘Moyes Haters Club.’ You’re only-half-right – they’re no secret: On this site alone, Moyes has been referred to as a cancer, a mercenary, a coward, and as someone who represents all that is bad about EFC.

(Nb: Let’s blot-out Mike Walker & Walter Smith, and pretend that a reincarnation of Kendall’s world-beaters is available via the magic-wand route).

You’ve never used such inflammatory language & nor have you demonstrated a conceit at Moyes playing to your particular tastes. But it’s interesting that you rush to the defence of a target group you don’t belong to, so keenly.

(After all, why would you post such a wordy rebuttal at 07:57 AM..?!

The rest of it is fairly standard fare from you. You chuck-in (as you so often do), your favourite go-to expression: ‘Sleight-of –hand.’ (For the millionth time). You then carry out the whole “I’ve got your card marked, sonny Jim,” routine, (Ie; pretense). You also follow it up with deliberately-chosen language designed to diminish the perception of a poster. (Nb: Referring to a simple POV/ opinion as a “bitter little post,” or “desperate bit of bollocks,” before adding your regulation shouty capitals for effect.

All of which doesn’t wash.

I totally agree that some of those past comments, now seem pretty ridiculous, James. Hindsight (and meticulous research) is a great thing. Let's not kid ourselves though, in thinking the man could not have performed better, during some of the darker moments over the past ten years (I could probably find just as many insane comments from the other side of the fence, if I could be arsed).

Think you're also correct, that Moyes has retained the core of the Everton support, during that time. This doesn't mean that everyone who has questioned or criticised the man, over his tenure, is the eternal ''pessimist''.

BTW, I don't think it is that easy being a pessimist. You've still to find reasons to be pissed off when we're playing well. That's the point of being a pessimist.

James Martin, I agree.

I suppose what I was trying (not successfully) to say, in my last post, is that this whole debate of, apologists versus the MOB, is inherently flawed. Why can't a poster slag Moyes when he fucks up one week and praise him when he gets it right the next?

We're Evertonians, not fuckin' robots.

James, non -attributable, quotes off the top of your head # 935 don't make for much of an argument. I just find it hard to understand why it should be unacceptable for a football supporter to be upset with the coach when the football is poor and negative and to praise him when it is excellent.

I think that the football has been dull more often than great under David Moyes, However, right now it is superb and I love it. Full praise and un-begrudging credit to David Moyes. . I believe that the vast majority of those who have criticised Moyes in the past do not hold views that are so entrenched that they cannot give credit where it is due., Sometimes it seems like there is a little resentment from the staunchest admirers of David Moyes when the rest of us join in the praises.

David Moyes is like a seventies band which has gone from producing dull concept albums (appreciated only by those of greater discernment) to having commercial hit singles. The masses are getting on board and those who stuck by him in the bad days don't like it. He's sold out!

Colin I think everyone has at some point criticised or questioned Moyes, that is natural. Most people including myself boiled with rage after the Anfield derby last season. There is no problem in that. What I have a problem with is some of the ridiculous overexaggerations, extrapolations, wild predictions, and doownright lies that some of the MOB have brought up over the last 2 years. Even Moyes's staunchest supporters do not go about claiming he is going to win the league for certain, or that we've played like Barcelona for all fo the last ten years, or that everything before and after Moyes was/will be terrible. The same cannot be said for his staunchest detractors though, those who ridiculously criticise and generalise about his entire tenure and his future.

Ridiculous notions like that the football has been dire hoofball for 10 years until last January. This is blatantly untrue, did the whole of 2007-2010 not happen? Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Osman Yakubu Cahill Lescott, all smack in their prime playing some great stuff. There was even some decent football back in 2004/5, yes it was functional but successful. To detract from that and call it a durge is a bit like criticising Mourinho's Chelsea team. Yes it wasn't what we've now become accusotmed to but with the limited ability of the players he had available it was a pretty decent brand of football and was nowhere near the sort of Stoke-esque monster some people would no whave you believe it was.

Walter Smith may have won away at Anfield, he may have picked up some players who went on to be decent European players, but from what I remember the majority of his reign was for one reason or another bordering on disastrous with nowehere near the same consistent level of performance or quality of player that we've seen under Moyes. Mike Walker's reign was also abysmal. Who knows what life would be like after Moyes, oh sorry the MOB do with their basic precedent that only Pulis and Allardyce play worse football than Moyes so therefore anyone could come in and do a better job with a set of players that Moyes deserves no credit for bringing together.

Then there's the quite frankly stupid assertion that Moyes will at some point drive us to relegation. If X,Y, Z keep spending money and beating Moyes in the transfer market we'll be in a relegation dogfight. As equally deluded as RS fans are for htinking they're going to win the league after one home win against anyone some of our fans think an away draw is a sign of some unstoppable downward slide. Isn't ten years a long enough period to show that relegation is no threat to Everton under Moyes? If anything we've been moving up as a team for most of his tenure. Teams always have and always will continue to buy crap that Moyes has been linked to in some papers. it does not mean that they will automatically finish ahead of us. The threat of QPR never materialised, Villa's money got them nowhere, neither has the investment and attacking 'genius' of Martin O'Neill at Sunderland. The premier league table sof the last ten eyars show that Moyes has created a team that is a long way ahead of lots of teams in the premier league. just ebcause we may lose at home to them once does not mean we're worse than them or that moyes got schooled by their manager. The league tables show that we have probably always finished ahead of them. Would be interesitng to see a list of all these supposed top managers who have never finsihed ahead of Moyes in the league.

Like it Andy. DM is Roxy Music. Or Bowie.

Phil Bellis #912: "First Moyesettes, now Masonettes..."

Good job we've got no Noisettes on here!

Again, I agree James, that some of those posts are, and probably will continue to be, ridiculous. IMO David Moyes has done a fantastic job in keeping us competitive and sometimes very threatening, despite coping with the debilitating infection, that is the current board. I wouldn't let these extreme views bother you so much. As you have stated, the majority of Evertonians don't feel this way.

Doesn't stop me being critical, if i'm pissed off though.

Colin - funny you should say that, because when I saw the title of this thread I was tempted to simply post...

"Five years? My brain hurts a lot."

but I couldn't be bothered explaining that it was a line from Bowie's "Five Years" from his "Ziggy Stardust" LP. I was going to then draw a tenuous comparison between Ziggy and the similarly ginger DM! Is it too late now?

Has anyone else noticed that DM has become less and less ginger over the years? I bet it's significant, but I'm not sure how. Hold on, I've got an idea: the current manager is actually not DM. The Ginger Man was replaced around Christmas last season by a more adventurous, less ginger, Scotsman.

Although that begs the question: if he's not DM (and, frankly, it would explain a lot)... then who is he?

Nice one kev!
Conspiracy theory #1
David moyes was replaced by michael jackson!
Btw five years... Thats all weve got.

We should have Moyesettes on the pitch at half time trying {and missing} to kick balls into the crowd, lets face it, nobody wants to see an apologist with their baps out do they?

Kev Johnson "Has anyone else noticed that DM has become less and less ginger over the years? I bet it's significant, but I'm not sure how. Hold on, I've got an idea: the current manager is actually not DM. The Ginger Man was replaced around Christmas last season by a more adventurous, less ginger, Scotsman".

Kev, you don't have slightly ginger hair, do you?

Colin (947), Andy (949) you both make a point about criticising Moyes when the football and results are poor and praising him when its deserved. All of which is exactly what many of us in the pro-Moyes camp feel is exactly what we do. However, there are many on this website, formerly with Tony Marsh and Michael Kenrick himself as leading lights, who would slag him off no matter what.

Andy when I first noticed your posts on this website you were pretty negative, but then we weren't playing that well, results were average and we all had ideas about what could and should be done differently. More recently you've been more positive in line with our improvements. All of this makes sense and I don't think you'd find a single person who has a problem with that. What is a problem is that some posters seem to be only pretending to voice reasonable opinions but are really just indulging in some kind of cathartic therapy, whereby they simply have to be negative and critical about something no matter what, so they do it here. Moyes is still being criticised at the moment for team selections when, but for terrible officiating, we would have comfortably won two consecutive Premiership games by a clear margin and sit second in the league. Its that sort of thing that is extremely frustrating and brings people out in his defence. I mean, yes, he could have won every game this season 5-0, in theory, but frankly, even if he did, I think some people would still be unhappy about him doing it with Hibbert/Neville/Osman/Anichebe (take your pick) in the team.

And I frankly completely disagree with your metaphor in your last paragraph, that simply isn't what this is about, it certainly isn't where my frustration comes from anyway. Its more that he's making clearly brilliant records, that every one loves, and some people are still claiming he's shit because they'd have put a different baseline in, or the lead guitarist should be on vocals, and they'll get more attention if they say that rather than accepting how good the music is. And anyway, the music wasn't as bad on the concept albums as you're saying it is.

Sam Hoare 862

You've missed the point completely and frankly I'm surprised it needs explaining but I'm generous to a fault me.

Moyes has generated his own money and put it to better use this time doing away with "hoofie" and playing "proper" football.

Of course if Mirallas ends up like Bily, we shit our pants against Liverpool etc I reserve the right to use the words "fuckin' deja vu".

Kevin (943) - well done, one BIIIIIIG load of sleight-of-hand (I'll help with your count - a million and one!).

You whine..

"Eugene (815) A slightly-senile, highly-manipulative & pedantic attack; in which you attempt to paint me as some kind of insidious Machiavelli. For the record, I prefer your ‘funny,’ anecdotes about the 1970’s, but I’ll happily take you on".

Two things.

1) Pedantic? Fine, from you I simply read that as annoyance that I address ACTUAL content of posts as written.

2) You don't SEEM very happy.

As for the rest of it, well that you spend so much much time criticising HOW I express my point simply shows (one million and two!) you can't get me on content (one man's 'quibble' etc).

By the way, if I've used 'sleight-of-hand' a million times (and I've told you a billion times not to exaggerate) it's been to point out a million instances of murky-the-water bollocks (nb: and this will not change)

For instance..

"You state there is no secret ‘Moyes Haters Club.You’re only-half-right – they’re no secret: On this site alone, Moyes has been referred to as a cancer, a mercenary, a coward, and as someone who represents all that is bad about EFC".

Well, factually, I don't dispute this for a second (even though personally I've never seen cancer).

However it IS bollocks as the suggestion/implication is that this is the widespread view.

"I wish Moyes would play more adventurous, less nervous, less defensive football he's a bit of a.....CANCER COWARD!!!!!!"

Like a shifty politician, you choose a few extremes and hope 2 and 2 will be added together to come up with...

All very obvious stuff.

Yes Kevin, I did attack your post as it was in the main (for SPECIFIC reasons pointed out) shite.

However, if it is any consolation, no criticism of mine could do you a bigger disservice than you do yourself - congratulations!

By the way, I think Andy Crooks has really has something.

"David Moyes is like a seventies band which has gone from producing dull concept albums (appreciated only by those of greater discernment) to having commercial hit singles. The masses are getting on board and those who stuck by him in the bad days don't like it. He's sold out!"

It's strange but many of TWs happy-clappy 'optimists' actually seem genuinely pissed off right now.

You can almost hear them tutting and moaning "It's not fair, we said he was good even when he wasn't".

Mike - would it be fair to say that you "went off on one" in that last paragraph?

I was following you until "because they'd put a different bassline in" then I was unable to follow you because you were up a tree in the jungle, or similar.

What are we saying here? That "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" (Gabriel-era Genesis) stands the test of time (which I'd agree with, to an extent) or that "Pictures at an Exhibition" (ELP) is actually a pretty good album (which I'd have to disagree with, quite violently)? There's a world of difference.

Are we saying that Moyes' Everton tenure is, in a sense, a concept album?

Mike Allison (971) - you say..

"What is a problem is that some posters seem to be only pretending to voice reasonable opinions but are really just indulging in some kind of cathartic therapy, whereby they simply have to be negative and critical about something no matter what"

As that is stated with incredible confidence and without a "what I reckon', can I just check - is that a medical fact or a quarter-baked, based-on-nothing, bit of alehouse bumfluffery guesswork?

Also, could you explain WHY it is 'a problem' and WHO it is 'a problem' for?

Here you go again, Eugene, underlining every assumption I have about you.

....Going out of your way to come across as the 'hilarious,' Scouser, and regularly employing the heavily-skewed, fact-less assumption about the position &(apparently) general well-being of other posters, over-elaborating their opinions & motive.

(You can't kid a kidda, etc...)

Your schtick doesn't work on me.

(Although I'm sure there'll be a 'gem,' of a response from you...Enjoy).

Oh no!. Back to the concept albums again. "The Lamb Lies Down At Leeds"

I prefer. " The Dark Side Of The Toon".

I knew I was onto something, Andy! Other 1970s concept albums that address aspects of our abject performances last night...

Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Loon? (poor selection policy from a temporarily insane DM)

The Who: Schizophrenia (how the hell can Fellaini & co go from cool to crap in just a few days?)

Yes: Tales from Coleman's Oceans (Seamus plainly lost at sea in the build up for that second goal)

Rick Wakeman: The Six Trouble and Strifes of Our New Number VIII (Oviedo struggles on his debut, as these half dozen examples clearly indicate...)

How about, The Who: Dead At Leeds.

No?

Fair enough.

Meatloaf: To Elland Back (?)

Colin, brilliant.

Good contributions guys - but neither of those are concept albums are they? Maybe we should broaden it out then....

If we're doing 70s songs, I'd put forward Elton John's pedestrial lament "Goodbye Wembley Road", or the weird and wonderful Roxy Music classic, "In every League Cup a Heartache". Perhaps even Thin Lizzy's astute comment on our return to poor form "The Gremlins Are Back in Town".

I daresay there are punk and new wave anthems that could be adapted, but I'm off to have my tea now...