Ste, relax fella, one team played 5, points 13, someone else played 5, points 5. Nothing sticking in my throat. No worries mate..

Chill dude. We are Everton!

Patience Ste, patience.

The media doesn't need us yet to fill their blank sheets of paper and dead air space. Our time approaches. Just not yet.

Yeah we know, chill etc but the patronising from Sky IS annoying. In the pre-KO preamble it went something like... "Everton are currently 3rd... they're usually just happy to finish above their neighbours," — no wonder we are bitter.

MOTD was as bad if not worse. They didn't even seem to mention that we were in fact second in the league.....Spurs took all the plaudits and gushing from those on the programme....I expect no different these days!

This isn't meant to be provocative but it reinforces what I say about Everton now being a "small" club. It is reflected at all times in how we're treated by the mainstream media. I for one love it, especially now that we are putting in performances that are impossible to ignore. Believe me, we may be invisible to the mainstream media but a lot of people in the real world are sitting up and noticing the transition that is occurring at the club.

Spurs got loads of media attention when they were going for the title last season. I'd rather us do our stuff on the pitch and then talk about it.

In my experience, this has long since been the case; in the eighties, when we swept aside all before us, we were "The Team of No Stars". It didn't stop us then and for me made it all the sweeter.

I through work meet supporters of lots of other clubs and despite the media there is a lot of credit and admiration out there for Everton. I understand the annoyance but just remember "Those who matter understand – those who don't understand don't matter!"

Will there be transition off the field too, Martin? Because the reason we have become a small club is because of what we have been doing off the field or more correctly what we haven't been doing!! Until that changes, we will still be a "small club".

Richard, we have become a small club because of many reasons ranging from not being able to capitalise on our mid-80s success by the European ban post Heysel to poor performance by various boards from 1970 until now. The transition to EPL and the massive diversion of resources from club to players and agents also caught us out because we were financially far too weak to absorb the change, unlike the clubs with benefactors and high revenue from other sources.

I believe that the concept that this board has been the cause is nonsense and it could actually be the solution not the problem they are seen as. As I've said many times, the restoration of EFC can only come about by organic changes resulting from an improvement in playing standards to increase our gates, TV income and get us exposure via Europe and this could be happening now.

If we get into European football this year, keep our best players, strengthen the squad and get the money flowing in, I'd say that this board and manager will have pulled off one of the best pieces of club management ever seen. Yes, they've done it by maximising debt and reducing assets but this was to buy players and the cost of failure could easily have been relegation and eventual bankruptcy.

Rather than the constant harping about the bad things, why not be very happy about the very good things that are happening now and the very good things that may yet come. No small club has won the EPL but it's not too ridiculous to have visions of us becoming the first.

Support the club don't undermine it and if we can continue the on-field transition then we could see the off-field transition that will be essential for our improvement to be sustainable. Increased income can go to reducing debt, improving the squad, improving the ground and increasing our revenues so that we can compete at the top level. It can only happen though by the present run of form to continue, it is not going to happen by the club being sold to a benefactor.

Too early in the season for our league form to be taken as a serious top 4 threat and hence become newsworthy.

A club hovering doggedly around 7th for years with purple patches amid snooze fests and noteable only for having a long serving manager needs to prove this is not another false dawn.

Dislodging the established media clubs via 'slowly, slowly, catchy monkey' tactics isn't explosive enough for the hacks.

Sky, and the Champions League (well – runners-up league) has ruined football in creating its four, and annually throwing a disproportionate amount of cash at them — and if you don't like it, why PAY them to put up with it?

I've never paid Sky and never will. I really don't get it why people pay for their TV service, which is full of adverts and less than impartial coverage. If people stopped subscribing, the cash cow would run out, there would be a more level playing field for clubs up the pyramid, players would not be paid an obscene amount of money to do a hobby, and teams like Everton might get a fair bash at glory.

Vive la revolution!

That Utopia will never happen, Chris #068.

I'm not really bothered about the lack of coverage at this stage in the season, it just helps us go about our business with no pressure. Although to be fair to Sky, they did visit the club last week and did an interview with Baines, and except for big nose on Soccer Saturday, we seem to have quite a few admirers, in particular, Paul Merson.

Playing devils advocate, how can you expect the mainstream media to take us seriously when our own manager tells them our first priority (this season) is to avoid relegation? Is he still going to be bleating on about relegation when we've got 60 pts?

I dislike the RS and most of their managers, but even when their team is crap they still build them up to try and instill confidence and scare the opposition. I'm sure a lot of that feeds into the media.

How many teams play Man Utd or RS already psychologically beaten? We've done that under Moyes a hell of a lot. We are a small club in his eyes too, it seems.

Truth is that Man Utd are a really really poor side this season, compared to 5 or 10 years ago. RS the same. Chelsea and Man City are the only teams who are qualitatively much better than us (and the rest). I doubt Arsenal have the consistency to really push the top 2.

We have a very good chance of a top 4 place if Moyes can get the players giving 100% effort in each game. We have a balance to the squad that we've not had in many years. We've got footballers who can play, we've got pace and a striker who can score.

RS are going to get a lot of attention because of their league position relative to the quality of the squad. Let them have that media attention, I'd rather it was them under the glare of the spotlight near the bottom of the league rather than us. Similarly there is going to be talk everytime Man Utd lose (which will be a lot this season I think).

I have been aware of four eras at board level at Everton:

(1) 70s & 80s underwritten by the Moores – decent success rate but nothing like the year-in, year-out consistency of our neighbours who virtually invented this type of domination as currently exhibited by Man Utd. Moores's influence faded; we faded gradually for a few reasons. Football was dying.

(2) The Johnson era – some good things achieved but there was always an uncomfortable feeling that all was being undertaken for one man's profit and his interests ultimately were not success on the football field. And so it proved in the 90s.

Terminal decline – relegation threatened on an annual basis, as no-one over the age of 30 needs to be reminded – deep debt, large financial committments to expensive players. THIS was a poor man's Leeds United scenario. Players bought in to 'excite' and keep the crowds at bay usually flopped and sold on at a loss. Let us not underemphasise this – Everton Football club were going the way of many grand old clubs into the 2nd Division.

(3) The True Blue era – Damage containment, reorganise financially, accept the business side and rebuild the team somehow with very little money while avoiding relegation. Almost impossible task mostly achieved.

For the first time we had a team building strategy: Buy young, fringe players, develop own talent, if you have to buy buy cheap, if you have to sell sell dear no matter who it is.

(4) Kenwright era – CEO employed, business restructuring & efficiency drives throughout. Outsource failing parts of the business. First time we start to hear of customer analysis for example. Wring every last penny out of elderly assets. Progress made on field, retain manager who got you this far, run realistic options for stadium move as far as they will go.

Many obstacles remain, we will experience more dips 0 remember losing 3-4 main players to serious injury in a few months last time we thought we could win something?

The crowds are back, protests a thing of the past for now – all we can do is take it one match at a time but few would argue we are in better shape now than we have been for 30-40 years and for that the present board and management take a bow. No other team have matched us pound for pound – all we need are a lot more pounds.

Had a tweet from Bet365 with the odds for the league for the 1st, 3rd and 4th placed teams. Tweeted them back lightheartedly and they apologised and tweeted the odds (66/1). Lot of good games yesterday so no surprise our game (and expected win) against a newly promoted side didn't make the headlines.

Lets keep playing in the shadows...

Martin Mason,

The board have already had these European springboard moments and failed to capitalize. That is why so many people have lost faith.

"No small club has won the EPL" says Martin.

Opinion v Fact and a personal definition of "small".

I'd agree with this article wholly if we finished where we are and still have next to no coverage on Sky, but with only 6 games gone they probably won't take us seriously at the moment. Maybe if we're still in top 4 reckoning between 15-20 games then the mainstream media might sit up and notice...

In response to wether Everton are a small club, I disagree. I agree with Phil Bellis that defining "big and small" is a matter of opinion. I personally class big clubs based on their past success, which means Manchester City are a small club. But the media and some fans base it on how wealthy they are and were they stand in today's game, from this viewpoint (which I don't buy) then Manchester City are a big club.

Nice try, Martin!! Your usual inane bollox that's not worth responding to, factually incorrect and bereft of common-sense.

Dont know why people keep going on about this when its pretty obvious. The teams with the largest following are going to get more air time – there is no secret consipiracy against us, it's just the way it is.

Once we actually win something or play in the Champions League a few times, then we will start getting more air time. Until then, to non-Everton fans, we are not a 'big' club and hence we don't get first billing...

If a Villa or Sunderland smashed 5 or 6 past someone, they would still find themselves behind the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd on the box.

Chill out and enjoy our start to the season. We have enough other real things to moan about rather than making up new stuff.

No small club have won the Premier League? Well Blackburn did. And Chelsea.

Ste Moorcroft

Paying money to Murdoch's Sky keeps us travelling down the same well-trodden path, where all we get is more of the same shit that we have had rammed down our throats since his vile organisation bought the monoply on our national sport.

If you don't like what Sky show, then why are you giving them your money?

It's never going to happen in my lifetime but I would love to see the top four made up of Everton (obviously top) followed by say, Norwich, Reading and Southampton. How would the media deal with that and how would the running order go on MotD?

Richard #136, MOTD May 2015 would probably start like this: (an even greyer) Gary Lineker "We have the game between Everton and Norwich to see who will wn the title, but before that we bring you the Manchester derby, to see who gets that final Europa League place".

Ste - the present government would have us believe that academic subjects such as economics are 'soft options'. The truth is that they don't want you to know that you're being conned.

Chris Williamson 068 and Nick Armitage 133 have already said it. You pay for this shit? Why? Don't complain to us, complain to them. Better still spend your money on a good cause rather than the Murdoch's corrupting evil empire. These, after all are the same people who seemed to think it was fair game to hack a missing girl's phone to get a good story.

Scum.

It gets better, on talk sport earlier today, they were talking about Chelseas' title chances and the guy says, well lets look at the chasing pack and proceeded to analyse Man City and Man Utd .
Just laugh it off as according to the same experts, half our team was due to be sold off last summer.
Just hope we have a right go and play no fear football.

I do not watch Sky anymore. I am just a very old Evertonian that enjoys the team and glad we are playing some nice football.

I have never or will ever subscribe to Sky and it's propaganda, hence I don't give a damn about their top 4 or whatever scenario they decide.

PThere is just Everton I want to see progress and long may it continue.

Dave - I remember Herman the German complaining bitterly about Sky buying the football rights all those years ago. In his hand he held a copy of The Sun.

You couldn't make it up, as they usually say when they're telling lies.

It will take some time for the moneybags teams to be upstaged by the likes of Everton etc, no matter what the match scores are. Redshite were overdue to win and Norwich were ripe for the picking by most teams. In fact they will get hammered by most teams before the season is done much like Soton as both have woeful defences.

Money talks and the Premier League is no exception. The big American owners want maximum Redshite coverage so that the big North American market can get the full treatment in order to sell merchandising etc.

It's hard to swallow for us Blues fans but we have to ram our superiority on the pitch down their throats as much as we can this season until we too can boast big moneybag owners.

I read a comment today that the Financial Fair Play Rules (which Platini will ruin at some point) would benefit top teams to compete against Man City/Chelsea et al. Those teams mentioned were Arsenal; Liverpool; United; Spurs and Newcastle. That tells you all you need to know about EFC sitting in second place right now - it's almost as if we're invisible!

I care little about Sky and the running order on MoTD - I care about picking up my Monday morning paper and looking at the league table and long may it continue!

I am a great believer in being fair and the EFC board and DM have done all they can to do its supporters proud - Bill K. is after all first and foremost an Evertonian and nobody can accuse DM of not caring - far from it.

Let's believe; let's support and deliver positive vibes on website posts and hope the players and coaching staff read them.

History tells us that 108 years in the top flight; championships; cup wins; we've scratched our name on a European Cup of sorts - Man City have a long long way to go to becoming a "big club" - we are already there, we just need a bit more of it!

I always buy 3 or 4 papers on a Sunday - and the lack of column inches compared to the bigger / moneyed clubs is astounding.

One good stat though - Liverpool are the biggest divers in the P.L with 6 yellow cards for simulation. Cheating twats !!!

shite were on before us on match of the day as well - ffs - and I fell asleep before we came on - ffs!

Did Spurs win the league yesterday? Only judging by the antics of the players manager and fans, I thought they did. Do you get 9 points for winning at Old Trafford or a trophy? Why were they celebrating like that?

Are Everton the Ford Football Special on Monday night against Nigel Adkins attractive Southampton? — only I haven't heard a fuckin mention of us in any media outlet over the weekend. Still. Make sure you all get wrapped up tomorrow night because I believe there's heavy rain forecast for Monday night.

Some of the posts on this thread are written as though History is a static fixed phenomena and that Man Utd will always dominate when it looks like their dominance is and has been waning for a number of years. No club dominates for ever sometimes it just feels like it is going to be forever.

We are a great club, with a proud history that few if any can really match in terms of being a consistent member of the top division of football in the UK, Europe or the world.

I have to be honest we are playing some of the best of the football I have seen us play for many years and even my demeanour has been resoundingly positive (I normally have a world view that alternates between Woody Allen neurosis and Leonard Cohen’s fatalism). What would help our media profile would be an injection of cash to help Moyes purchase a couple of players that could capture the imagination of football supporters beyond Goodison. It would also be great if we could finally attract some kind of investment to help ‘refresh’ or rebuild the clubs facilities.

Before somebody says that could never happen consider what has happened to MCFC (I can remember the play off with Gillingham in the old third division) and to a lesser degree Chelsea, these things do happen. The challenge for Kenwright is not to bask in this relative success but get off his fat arse (and drag Jenny Seagrove with him - the jammy get) to try and attract major investors whilst we are playing well and at the top of the league.

I might be wrong here but haven't we had four games shown live on Sky already this season. That was including three live games in one week. Personally having been an Evertonian since 1984, I still moan about Hysel but there is nothing we can do about it now.
I question whether any true blue wants to see us go down the same road as Leeds, Portsmouth, Bradford just to name a few clubs who have destroyed their clubs in the search for glory. And lets not forget what happened through the agent Johnston years.

I would rather see the steady progress we have made over the last 10 years that the utter shite we had to endure for the previous 10 years, which made being an Evertonian a laughing stock. And I seem to recall a that it was only two weeks ago on match of the RS Harry Redknapp saying that we were a proper football club, and that we are a model of how a football club should be run ( maybe he was putting himself in the frame to be our next manager once Moyes goes to united).

We have all got to remember that we were one of the five clubs who forced through the conception of the Premier league in the mid 80's, and agreed to the rule that you can only have a vested interest in one club otherwise we probably would still be owned by the Moores family. whilst we are playing the best football since we were owned by that esteemed family, who cares what the media says let us do our talking on the pitch.

Onwards and upwards if we don't make Europe this season it will be a travesty. COYB.

Martin,
We await your considered and opinionated riposte to those of us who don't share your opinion given in the statement you proffered as a fact..
"No small club has won the EPL"

You regularly call us a small club, by your own, personal defintion of small

May I ask, what, as an Evertonian, you make of this quote from a professional football player who, presumably, in my opinion, appears to be equally dismissive of our team...

"There's not just [Manchester] United and Arsenal now but [Manchester] City, Chelsea and Tottenham. Newcastle are coming as well"

Are you angry? upset? at the blatant omission or do you agree with the speaker that we, as as a "small" club don't warrant a mention?

BTW on MOTD2 the Northern Irish geezer whose name escapes me, said "the next 4 matches are teams in with a shout for silverware" no prizes for guessing a) which 4 games and b) which game didn't fall into the category

Its not just Sky. Or the BBC.

Google

1. Everton vs. Southampton ... and you get 216 news articles.
2. Norwich vs. Liverpool ... and you get 444 news articles.

Norwich must be a REALLY big club ...

Phil@221

If you're awaiting my "opinionated" response then, of course, you won't be getting one.

Richard@119

Nice try, Martin!! Your usual inane bollox that's not worth responding to, factually incorrect and bereft of common-sense.

Then you would find it easy to refute what I said? Where and why was it what you say? That nI can reapond to, incoherent rambles are too difficult.

I haven't watched this weeks Fox Sports Premier League wrap up here in Aus yet but I was pleased to see last week that our game vs Swansea was one of the 3 games mentioned at the beginning of the program, albeit the 3rd one, giving us some due publicity.

Who is this slumbering Rip van Winklle of a club? After a good 20 years in the doldrums, even allowing for the 95 FA Cup, this club may be finally waking up and assuming its rightful spot as one of the biggest clubs in England – if not the world.

Well Martin we were a massive club off the field too in 198,9 when we had just bought Tony Cottee for a British record, we were just about to be instrumental in the formation of the premier league, we were also one of the big 5.... Bill Kenwright joined the board and guess what? we've been declining off the field ever-since.

They are all facts Martin not opinion, I'm sure you'll find some cleverly spun shite to apologize with.

Martin #053

"If we get into European football this year, keep our best players, strengthen the squad and get the money flowing in, I'd say that this board and manager will have pulled off one of the best pieces of club management ever seen."

Make your mind up, on another post you said winning the league cup {by far the easiest route into Europe} was irrelevant.

Ed 201 - 'I normally have a world view that alternates between Woody Allen neurosis and Leonard Cohen’s fatalism' Genius! You and me both mate!

As for the TV coverage running order, isn't is just down to supporter numbers? i.e. biggest supported teams get shown first? Apologies if I'm being simple!

And just to echo views above, it's only 6 games in and we've got much harder games to come. If we're still in the top 4 after Arsenal, Citeh, Spurs and Stoke (away) on the bounce I'll start getting very excited!

Just to clarify: not meaning to sound negative, just realistic

Steve@244

I most definitely didn't say that winning the League Cup was the easiest way into Europe, I specifically said that we had far more chance of getting into Europe via league position. I said our performance in the League Cup historically was rubbish.

It being "by far the easiest route into Europe" is your comment, your opinion.

Richard@236
Firstly, I don’t owe you an apology for anything and let me point out something to you. We bought Tony Cottee for a British record, we were still 3 years off forming the EPL, BK joined the board are facts.

That we were one of the Big 5 is your opinion and that is all, there was actually no such thing. That we were a “massive” club in 1989 is your opinion and disproven by our subsequent Div 1 and EPL performances which were dire. Your inference that our subsequent decline was due to BK joining the board is absolutely baseless and frankly laughable, do you understand causation and correlation?

We had been declining for decades when Kendall came and gave us a very welcome but short lived boost in performance but the reality was that we were broke when Kendall came and we were broke again when we’d soon spent the additional income accrued from that all too brief 3 years of success.

The team is doing very well at the moment but there is a long way to go. So lets be cautiously optimistic. In the words of the great Abraham Lincoln;...... "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." A quote that is more appropriate to our dear neighbours from across the park?

I have always been fascinated by the whole 'Big club/small club' argument. It's all about perspective; for example, Martin Allen called Gillingham a big club on Football Focus on Saturday. I don't necessarily disagree: Potentially, they could be a big club, with a good catchment area of potential supporters. The same is true of Carlisle, Plymouth, Hull.

On the flipside, certain people talk of Everton as a 'small' club. If that is the case, in their opinion there must be only 3 or 4 'big' clubs in England, and 86 'small' ones! I think 'big' has become confused with 'rich' in modern football.

When i'm assessing the size of a club, I consider a multitude of factors: History, honours, Stadium size, support, especially away support, potential for success given a hypothetical level financial playing field, legacy in the game overall, records and firsts achieved. In my mind, there is a clear "Big 10" clubs in English football:

Manchester United
Arsenal
Everton
Liverpool
Tottenham
Leeds United
Aston Villa
Chelsea
Manchester City
Newcastle United

with the likes of Sunderland, Nottm Forest, Wolves, West Ham, Derby and the two Sheffield clubs after that.

I think what's telling of just how big Everton are, is that despite the media ignorance, our lack of money etc, we still manage to do as well as we do, and maintain such a healthy fanbase. Any 'small' club in similar financial circumstances would have sunk long ago. I always tell my Man Utd and Liverpool friends to just watch out if we do even get some money and achieve success, as we will do it in a grander fashion than they ever would imagine. We all can dream.

Martin #266
Sorry, it was my opinion that it's the easiest way into Europe, but it's also fact.

You said this:

"For me winning a trophy is irrelevant, the league cup and FA cup have been devalued so much now that winning them would be nothing except for the pot hunters. Where Everton finish in the EPL and how well they play will be the only thing I judge them by."

No specifics there about getting into Europe via league position.

It was quite funny really.

Having listened to the 10 mins of the fishing prog on talk Spurs I put the kettle on and thought i'd settle down to a nice brew and check out the online newspapers for some match reports.

Them twats at Talksperms rattled on over and over and over about bloody Totingham and Liverpool by the arch gobshite Mickey Quim. This started at 8.00am and went on for about 2 1/2 hours.

So, I thought bugger it i''l send them a txt msg to let them know of my displeasure.

Would you believe it just as the txt received msg sang they spoke about Everton. Guess what, could of put a mortgage on the fact that they only said how good we were.... Moyes is doing well with the money he has to spend...... and we'll drop down the league if we have any serious injuries.

Wow, aren't the footballing world i.e. supporters, vastly more knowlegable about all things Everton now.

Of course it was too late and I did the only thing available to me since I wasn't in a room with that Quinn twat and a baseball bat, and that was use the off button.

Yeah lets keep a low profile with no pressure. Problem is, low profile, = very little sales, marketing, overseas.

Wouldn't it be nice just to win the league and Moyes tells the meeja to do one.

COYB

Have any ToffeeWebers ever been on Talksport?

Football punditry is universally piss poor and to this I include most interviews with players and managers. We're not one of gods anointed sky clubs but to be honest who cares, fuck the lot of em. And if we were once again to become challengers and raise the interest of sky el al, them fuck the lot of em again. I have no interest in the mire, in the fatuous meaningless waffle of the footy chatty merry go round. I gave up on it years ago. It offers next to nowt.

We have a manager of integrity, a great team, loyal fans, history, and we're all part of it. We're a proper, proper club. Coyb

What happens if the good form continues and we don't have any serious injuries? By the way what happens if our neighbours have serious injuries will they continue to climb the league?

This season is the best opportunity we will have of making a real football statement that is why the players , Manager and Fans should really go for it starting at Wigan on Saturday.

COYB

Kev Yeah me. What I cant understand is why everyone here are not manning the phones and giving them shite.

Obviousley we're not as commited as we appear on this website !!

John Ford, agree whole heartedly. A man after my own heart. Problem is, in the 21st century, it's not about heart it's about money.

What a sad celebritorial world we live in.

Guess the new word in the Oxford/English........

Kev - I've had a couple of texts read out but never rung.

John (318) - you're right. TalkSport in particualr is absolutely cringe worthy at times, the "good cop / bad cop" routine the likes of Durham and Goff conduct is just transparent rabble rousing. Shite broadcasting. I've given up listening to most of the shows on it but like Danny Kelly and Goldstein and Cundy can be pretty entertaining; most of the others are self important knobheads though - and I've not even got on to some of the callers :D

5 Live is better but does have its moments (Alan Green for one - I'm ashamed to share my family name with him...)

Another one - Deadline Day on Sky - aaaaaarrrgghh!!!!!!!!!! But I always get sucked in.....

One thing I've noticed is that very few Evertonians call into the national stations. Not sure why - don't know if we just rise above it or don't care what the stations or other fans think about us or our club, its as if its our club and we'll talk it amongst ourselves thanks (hence probably why there are more Evertonians on this thread alone than I've heard on TalkSport put together....)

Patrick,

You ask, ‘what happens if the good form continues?’

Unfortunately (unless some money materialises from the strenuous 24/7 effort) any of the richer clubs feeling threatened by us will seek to destabilise the team by: making offers for our players; offering silly, life-changing money to Fellaini and others; offering the certainty of CL football.

We need to keep doing well, but time our real run for post February.

Oh - and come derby day it will all be pitched as "Can Liverpool Turn their Season around at Goodison" rather than "Can Everton Beat Liverpool to go Top". Just wait and see.....

Talking of Talksport... there seems to be a lot of people on here saying it's rubbish but they listen to it anyway! Er, why listen to it then? I switch off whenever Collymore comes on, but I think Danny Baker knows his football, and the Hawksbee & Jacobs afternoon show makes me laugh. Also Press Pass on Sunday evenings, that's good. A lot of infuriating dross in there, but it's not all bad.

I know a lot of people really dislike him, but I think Lawrenson is pretty fair and clued up about what's really going on with us. He doesn't just trot out the usual stuff about Moyes doing great on a restricted budget, blah, blah, blah. [Dons rock-resistant helmet.]

Steve@313

How many times have EFC qualified for Europe by means other than the League Cup?

How many times have they qualified via winning the League Cup?

I rest my case.

Posted something similar on another thread but I guess it's more appropriate here.

I don't think the lack of coverage has been unfair. We've been mostly awful in the premier league era and, even when decent, we've lacked marketable players.

I really believe that is changing. Fella is about the most recognizable footballer in the league and if his performances continue then he's a genuine star that the media will take to. Mirallas already looks like a star attraction. Baines' is the go to footballer when the media want to appear knowledgeable. And after a great record last year, another good tally this year will propel Jelly into the very top category of strikers.

Can we hold those players? And will I enjoy being media darlings?

They're questions for another day. But it would all be positive for the club.

The press is littered with RS loving journos - The mail have 'Dominic bla bla bla' ex RS correspondant at the echo' for their impartial Merseyside section...

And, I need anger management if I even seen the Daily Mirror sports section (AKA The Kop). Even on a quiet LFC newsday, the Mirror can always roll out KK or Carra with some inane drivel to fill a page. While the same RS journo will assign a few news worthy lines he found off Newsnow to ensure he meets his EFC quota.

But nothing tops that Geordie Gump, Shaun Cuntis, who quite seriously (shakes head in disbelief again) compared Everton to Charlton in terms of stature and size of club, while discussing (again) why David Moyes is still at Everton, on SKY's Sunday Supplement. Even Brian Woolnough's (rip) astonished 'are you an idiot' look couldn't make him see sense, as he firmly believed we are similar to Charlton - No disrespect to Charlton but CHARLTON !

My point, well I didn't really have one starting out other than my dislike of the press LFC bias. I just wanted to get that off my chest. But in doing so, it's made me realise how much I value sites like Toffeeweb nowadays to get the latest EFC news, and of course it's fans varied (sometime crackers) opinions.

Err... Martin – Proof is something that you have in a court of law when one side has overwhelming evidence and one side has a pile of shite and spin to support their case!! "Your honor, I rest my case!!!"

Richard,

Proof and case are nothing to do with courts of law:

• Proof — sufficient evidence or argument for the truth of a proposition;

• Case — an instance of the occurrence of something.

In your favour in this instance, one side did have a pile of shite and the other presented overwhelming evidence.

I've put my case down again.

Martin (#269): "We had been declining for decades before Kendall came in....." — Obviously that is your opinion. Can you give us some proof we had been declining?

Decades in my book means at a minimum 20 years so we're talking from about 1962 onwards. Now these were my haydays and I seem to remember that in the 60s we did relatively well backed by the Moores, unless I'm missing something of course.

So proof please Martin.

Simon (425): if I was responsible for an advertisement for ToffeeWeb, I would use your last paragraph for inspiration. Classic stuff!

"ToffeeWeb is the go-to site for Evertonians. Roll on up if you want to:

1) Make your point... er, even if you don't have one! Go on, get it off your chest anyway. You know you want to.

2) Get all the latest EFC news - true dat

3) Share footy (and vaguely footy-related*) opinions with a wide variety of EFC fans, including some who are plainly crackers - and that's putting it nicely

4) Have an informed debate, have a moan, have a laugh. Have a go...

5) Buy ToffeeWeb NOW!"

*I subscribe to the Six Degrees of Separation theory so, in a way, everything is footy-related one way or another.

Martin#419
Would you say it was easier to win 5 games with a full strength squad or try to accumulate 65-70 points over the length of a season to qualify for the exact same competition?

I don't think we've actually tried to win the League Cup since the mid eighties and certainly not during the PL era, this has always puzzled me.

The current Europa format is worth around £5M in prize and gate money for getting through the league stages, and quite a bit more if going all the way to the final, for a club in our predicament with regard to finances, getting to a final of a European qualifying competition should be a priority every season, probably more so than the FA cup......but both would be nice of course.

Kev,
Nice summing up of TW.....btw, Hawksbees a tit, I would happily carry on punching him til my knuckles wore down to the gristle.

Steve@453

I've asked the valid question, the answer is that historically we've proven that for us it's easier to qualify for Europe as a result of position rather than winning the League Cup which we've never done.

Every year say 8 clubs from the EPL qualify for Europe via none LC means and 1 team qualifies via the LC so again this would indicate that the non-LC route is by far the easiest.

Is it easy to win 5 LC games on the trot when you are also playing hard league games at the weekend? I don't think so.

My view is that it is far easier for EFC to play consistently and qualify for Europe in 7th place than to win the LC I agree that it'd be nice to win the LC and qualify for Europe and win a bit of money but how about if this meant relegation or at least a very low league position. I would hate for us to lose to the RS because we were concentrating on winning the LC.

To go back to the original post about Sky somehow overlooking us, this is patently a crock of shit.
To try and show this is not just an opinion but is supported by some evidence I thought I would look at the number of televised domestic games in the first three months either happened or planned for the 'big' teams.

Man City 6
Man Utd. 6
Chelsea. 5
Arsenal. 6
Spurs. 4
Liverpool 5

And Everton 6!!

But to paraphrase 'just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!'

Feel held hostage by Sky at times because I have no choice but to subscribe if I wish to watch as much sport as I would like to, but can't say I've ever found them particularly bad in their treatment of our club.

Actually think a lot of their output is towards the top end of what is available in sports and drama these days; even if we aren't 'Game of the Day' you are still guaranteed something like 50 minutes of highlights from each of our league games, and the commentators tend to be appropriately complimentary / critical. Also carrying a torch for Sarah Jane Mee.

Murdoch may be detestable but sometimes "the Devil has the best tunes"!

Martin, some interesting 'logic' at 458:

"Every year say 8 clubs from the EPL qualify for Europe via none LC means and 1 team qualifies via the LC so again this would indicate that the non-LC route is by far the easiest." - Think your figures are wide of the mark (an outsider wins either / both cups and our opportunities in the league beyond the top 5 all but vanish) and your conclusion is unsubstantiated. Just means there are more opportunities, nothing to do with what is easiest. Birmingham, Villa, Leicester, Middlesborough and the RS last year all show that a good cup run can get an average team into Europe, but average teams don't qualify through their league placings.

"Is it easy to win 5 LC games on the trot when you are also playing hard league games at the weekend? I don't think so." The LC games should be no harder to win than the league games and they hardly come all bunched together. If you take a tactical decision you may even sacrifice a couple of the league games for an improved attempt at cup success unless you were convinced that we would qualify by league position anyway.

Graham (#492)

What first three months do you mean?

Si

The maths are very simple. If you qualify for a European competion it's 8:1 against doing it via the league cup.

Regarding winning 5 games on the run I won't be checking but my bet is that it is very rare and if you look at the odds of winning 5 games on the trot in addition to weekend league games then that is very rare. That is probably why Everton have never won the LC.

I also believe that there is an agreement between the EPL teams that they field second string sides for the first 3 rounds of the LC which reduces our chances of winning to effectively zero.

There is no conspiracy against Everton. There are three fundamental forces at work here
1. Clubs with bigger following sell newspapers and TV channels. We are not small, but there are clearly 4 clubs with bigger fan bases nationally (and certrainly internationally) than us.
2. As Evertonans we are pschologically primed to pick up any news or non news about Everton. . Any exposure we take for granted as it fits in our own world view that Everton are important. Any lack of exposure we notice because it challenges our world view that Everton are important.
3. Perception always lags reality. I hope that the reality is that Everton are a top 4 side on the pitch this year. In the last 9 months they have been. But it takes perception time to catch up with any new reality. We would need to finish in the top 4 two seasons running to really be treated differently. This happened in the 80's. After Christmas in '84 we were clear top of the league and FA Cup holders, we got top billing for the next 5 years. In May '85 Man U came to the cup final as the "other team". It was all about Everton, we even had a programme on Newsnight just about us on the eve of the cup final.

David

Very good points and well made.

Martin (#528) - the maths aren't that simple because you are ignoring the random factors in the cup that exist because of the draw for each round. It is possible to get mainly home ties and not meet a 'bigger' club until the final (if at all).

I am not aware of any agreement to field second-string teams. In any case, we should have been able to beat Leeds and then, with a bit of luck, reach the final.

The league is a fixed format of home and away against the other 19 Premier League teams. Given our small squad it is likely that we will suffer a poor run at some stage of the season without any great chance of raising our game. League cup final is early enough to give us a better chance of keeping sufficient top class players available.

Nailed it Si. Many variables in the cup.

In fact Si, you'd think. as an Engineer, Mart.....i'll leave it there.