I personally am not a fan of Kenwright or most of the board for that matter. It’s nothing to do with the fact that they haven’t pumped 100's of millions it more to do with the constant lies inability to run a business.

I personally I am not a fan of Kenwright or most of the board for that matter. It’s nothing to do with the fact that they haven’t pumped 100's of millions into the club it’s more to do with the constant lies and inability to run a business.

The reasons for such a decline have been done to death in other threads but I'm sure Martin Mason will be along any second to argue about "facts" and "evidence" or whatever.

Welease Wobert the Wobber!!!!!

"Kenwright is a true blue and he will not just sell the club to anyone to make a quick buck.'

And what exact proof do you have to back up this statement? Given various things in the past, (DK, Fortress, lies about cheques in the post - just a few that spring to mind), I would seriously beg to differ that BK would not be off in a shot if offerred a chance to line his pockets. In a lot of peoples opinions, the club as not been sold to date simply because the supposed asking price is too high. As a shareholder BK has every right to ask for whatever price he wants but please don't try and make him out to be a saint, which we cleary is not!

Many people are dreaming of a sugar daddy takeover but in reality simply hoping that people with better business acumen can come in and take over the running of the club. I wont go into all the details of what is wrong with the club off the field, you can trawl thrugh TW at your leisure.

Moyes.

'Again as far as David Moyes is concerned I would love him to stay as manager for ever'

As the saying goes be careful what you wish for.... Moyes has done some great things at the club and he has done some pretty shite things too. The first half of last season is fresh in the memory for me, as is the start to the 2006 season: first league 8 games, 7 defeats, 1 goal, 3 points and bottom if I remember correctly. On the flip side there have been some memorable games, especially in Europe and this season has got off to a cracker so far (leeds excepted).

Whichever side of the Moyes fence people sit on, there is ammunition for both sides from the past so the dicusssions lead to nowhere at the end of the day. He's steadied the ship, thankfully got us away from annual relegation battles had a great start this season, but on the other hand has won nought in over a decade in charge (never really looked like winning anything either), regularly go out to lower league sides in the cups and we've played some pretty 'turgid' stuff and seen some bizaar tactics/substitutions.

I also truly detest the phrase 'punching above their weight' and think it is absolute bollocks. When taking wages, and everyones all beloved net spend into account, Everton have on average been around 8-10 in the league as far as expenditure is concerned so I would expect at the very least a regular top half finish every season - regardless of the manager. That we have achieved this and higher a few times is down to good work from the team/manager and also a little luck at times, so Moyes deserves credit here. However I refuse to subsribe to the mantra that we are a little old club always 'punching above our weight'. We're not a Fulham or Stoke!

One thing is guaranteed, whichever side of the fence people are on, we all support the club and one day Moyes will be gone and BK will be gone, but we the fans will still be here supporting the blues.

The good work on the pitch only papers over the cracks in the club off it.

Money is the route to success. I would love us to finish top three, it would be an amazing achievement given the top heavy nature of spending power. It would actually be a unique achievement.

If you're quoting the "true blue" thing, perhaps you need to have a look — "self-serving" seems more apt.

As for Moyes... the pre-Swansea Mk1 Moyes of last season was a bloody waste of space; putting aside the subsequent "derbies" and Leeds in the League Cup, Mk2 is vastly improved.

But I expect this to be his last season judging by the tap dancing around the contract question. I do hope Kenwright is suitably prepared... (Who the fuck am I kidding?)

(cries a little and goes to lie down in a darkened room)

'Be careful what you wish for'...'Kenwright is a True Blue' (and?)...'punching above our weight' (god I truely hate that soundbite,we aren't a Wigan or a Stoke).

A load of gushing shite that's been laughed off this site many times before.

A(n even) better manager and a richer / more competent chairman. There are two 'viable solutions' for you Bill. Now, if you want names / details it gets a bit trickier, but that is why we have the debates about these things.

Anyone who will allow the manager to spend more than he brings in?

a) owners putting more equity into the business. Obviously this has not happened with us. However, there is no law saying that this needs to be done and anyway a well run business should not need this. Personally I don't blame BK for not putting anymore of his cash into Everton, he doesnt have to, and I think many blues are wrong to blame him for not doing so.

b) generate profits from commercial activities - don't know whether to laugh or cry here. We have been pretty poor on this front when compared to the likes of spurs and villa (the clubs we can realistically compare ourselves to imo). Take a bow BK.

c) generate funds from player sales, which Everton (and every other club) has done to varying degrees of success during Moyes' time.

GIven the above, the only cash Moyes is going to get for transfers, will come from selling. He finally got rid of Billy in Jan and used the cash wisely for Jelavic. Ditto Rodwell/Mirralas etc. Both good bits of business but not exactly rocket science in getting rid of the players in question, Billy had been catching splinters on our bench for 2.5 years at 40k a week.

Anyway, sorry am rambling a bit now - all I am trying to say is that Moyes has done a good job but he has had some money and has/had the control of generating funds from players sales at every transfer window (eg Jags to Arsenal 12m not taken, Rodwell 12m to city, taken etc).

Since 2003 (when the BBC table starts) Moyes has spent 129m on transfers alone over 9 years, which put us 10th in the league on transfer spend (we're about 7th or 8th on the wages table). So yes he's done good but its not like he did it all with 5p. On the net spend front, this varies season on season and Everton have been anywhere from about 5th to 15th when you take each season seperately over the last 10 years - e.g. we were pretty high up for 2005-2008 and pretty low from 2008-2011. Looking at the last 5 years alone, Newcastle and Arsenal had net spends significantly lower than Everton but finished higher in the league, Sunderland and Liverpool had much higher net spends and finshed lower....so for me the net spend thing is a bit of a red herring. I prefer to look at total spend as that is the actual amount of cash the manager has had in his hands to spend - regardless of where the cash came from.

Anyway, to sum up Moyes has done a very good job on the expenditure front but we haven't excatly been an orphan from a dickens story either.

At least looking forward, the new sky deal would seem to have saved BK's (and our own) bacon. I read somwhere that even the team finishing bottom of the table in the 2013/2014 season will get 60m in TV money - yes SIXTY MILLION for finishing last! When you take into account that our TOTAL income for the 2010/2011 year was around 78m, this will hopefully allow us to wipe out most of our debts in a couple of years time - assuming the owners in the league are not stupid enough to give all the new cash away to the players and managers in inflataed contracts (ah wait isn't that why we're in this shit in the first place.......?)

Now I should really make better use of the bank holiday day here in the fatherland.....COYB

some good points there,except for "I don't blame BK for not putting any more of his cash in" suggesting BK has put some of his cash in.
After buying his shares,over 10 years ago,BK has not put 1p into Everton FC.

Bastards!!

I heard Steve Kean's name mentioned but they were also discussing what a great fella Howard Wilkinson was!

We'll have to move fast on Steve Kean, someone's bound to snap him up soon. I don't think we could afford Howard Wilkinson, but we might just be in with a chance of Neil Warnock. Fingers crossed, eh?.

If that doesn't pan out, I suggest Robbie Williams as Chairman. OK, so he's a Port Vale supporter, but he is a genuine footy fan and he is absolutely effing loaded. He could bring in his mate as manager. Whats-his-name... Jonathan Wilkes. He was on our books as a youngster. No, really, he was. Not a bad player. No managerial experience whatsoever - but, come on, how hard can it be?

Kenwright- Difficult to be sure as lots of spin but undoubtedly dropped the ball over KD and seems to get caught out alot saying things that are then proved to be patently untrue. He may be a genuine blue but I suspect he's also a money hungry trickster who would ultimately put his own personal financial profit before the good of the club. However we are still solvent and in the premiership so I suppose he deserves at least a little credit for that. Will not be sad day for me when he leaves.

So for example in 2004/5 Moyes got a fair bit of money to spend but he got it from having to sell arguably the best player the club has produced in the last 20 years or so.

For me net spend is a better indication than total spend of the resources available to a manager and evidence of how well the likes of Moyes and Wenger have done.

I can see now why football clubs aren't run by football fans.

Where are those bloody cliches when I need them

Despite dismissing net-spending (notice he avoids giving our average position regarding this) he's at pains to point out Newcastle's net-spend in the last five years is less than ours, and that they've finished above us. Well they did that once, and after being relegated, and with the mammoth sale of Andy Carroll of course.

We have had money and qualified for Europe three years running when we did. But we also had 4 transfer windows in a row and not a single first team signing for money. Even when £17m of talent was sold off last year, only £550k was spent on reserves.

Then Moyes was allowed the 'privilege' of a zero net spend in the last two windows, and we could get 4th this year. So what was that Dickens comment? I think compared to the teams we compete against then yes, it would be apt.

Big crowds, richest league in the world, average wage bill, 24/7 search, yet BK has asset-stripped the club just to keep the banks at bay. And surrounding this lack of acumen, Moyes with good and bad football has kept Everton around the upper reaches.

Dismissing the manager's actions as 'hardly rocket science' is in line with his general attitude towards the guy. No credit due apparently.

I know Arsenal's net-spend is very good, but how much goes into their academy? Their stadium? The kudos of having CL every year? Looking at what Moyes has had to compete with, no-one has done more for less, or got anywhere near it.

BK has NOT asset stripped the club and if he had it wasn't to keep the banks at bay.

Unless it can be proved otherwise. The assett stripping is of course the ultimate nonsense.

Interesting theory.

1. Arab who is willing to spend £1 billion & lift the league title within 3 years, complete with new 60,000 capacity stadium.

2. Indians or Americans who will appoint the worst manager in PL history and we will be relegated within 18 months.

Why can't we have someone who will clear the debt, who can maximise commercial revenues, and give the manager say £10m a season and no pressure to sell players to buy ?

Is that beyond the realms of reality ?

I absolutely cringe when I listen to journalists quoting a figure of £400-700m to purchase the club.

Sadly Bill – you believe there are only two options, and you even pour cold water on the billionaire Sheik option in case they leave after pouring hundreds of millions into the club!

But you've answered the question. We sold assets to buy other assets in the form of players. A massively risky enterprise that may well have worked.

Some scream if we don't buy players and then scream if we buy players by borrowing money and selling assets. We can't always have it both ways.

Nick@577. The main reason for selling the assets was to fund purchasing and paying of players. If we don't buy players we can repay the banks from revenue?

Ste@585 – The board aren't simpletons, it was obviously better to run Finch Farm as OpEx rather than CapEx.

Next thing will be a rewriting of the lies, they weren't lies after all, just hopeful anticipations weren't they? The fuck ups weren't incompetence just genuine mistakes, no harm done, was there?

The club has always been for sale if they met the price, well actually no, it wasn't for sale it was merely seeking investment, with no return promised of course, and of course it was a 24/7 search, a hopeless and thankless one, after all what idiot would invest for nothing? So what do we believe?

Not BK. his lack of credibility over the years has culminated in his ridicule of fans, shareholders alike. He is and always has been l believe, more interested in self and his associates than the club. I can't blame him for that, but at least be honest about it.

Moyes is still here, amazingly, but the absence of silverware has been a major blot on his copybook. He is a good but ultra-conservative manager; with a better team he has better options as we are seeing this year.

As I see it it is beyond the realms of reality. How is this Nirvanah actually to be achieved. Do we just wish it?

Poor management got us into the situation where assets were sold, even shareholders were blocked from asking questions regarding this, remember? They had the audacity to question the board, so the board changed the constitution to prevent AGMs and unpleasant publicity.

Interpretation of facts are oft manipulated when it's convenient to do so. We are winning so everything must be alright and everything that went before didn't happen did it?

Total fallacy. We have sold players to buy other players. Assets in the form of infrastructure have been sold for other reasons.

@ 574 "BK has NOT asset stripped the club and if he had it wasn't to keep the banks at bay."

Which is it? He DEFINITELY hasn't asset stripped the club, but if he had, which he DEFINITELY HASN'T, it DEFINITELY WASN'T to pay the banks.

What a steaming pile of contradictory shite. Didn't really expect anything else though.

BK has NOT asset stripped the club... ultimate nonsense.

13:54 - Martin Mason

The main reason for selling the assets was to fund purchasing and paying of players.

Ciarán couldn't argue himself out of that one!

Your first objection: you are interpreting the word "asset" in a way running counter to the intentions of the writer. Creating strawmen in order to score cheap debating points is not going to turn you into a champion orator.

Your second objection: The words make sense to me, and presumably to the other readers as well, but not to you. Whether I agree or disagree with them is another matter. I think you have a problem, mate.

Do not think that I have any partisan intentions here. I am no fan of BK, but I believe we should think twice about to whom we are to sell our club.

We've spent the 10th most on transfers since 2003 so, in relation to that, we've done very well... but I would have expected mid-table anyhow. (Some people seem convinced that if Moyes goes we'll immediately get relegated — I don't believe that.) I don't see why people find the 'total spend' logic hard to cope with. Liverpool wasted the Torres money; Newcastle used the Carroll money wisely... however, the amounts spent by Chelsea and Liverpool were obviously ridiculous. Just like we conned £24M out of Man City for Lescott, at the time we used £12-13M of this money well and £9M-odd not so well; etc.

I recognise that Moyes has done a very good job — it's just that I feel some people seem to think he's the next Messiah or something and that he did it all with a bag of rice and tuppence. I seem to remember we broke our transfer record about 3 years on the trot not so long ago, so we must have had some cash. In the recent past, he did not have much cash but also chose not to sell anyone (he says he controls all player movements). Knowing our financial situation, he would have known that selling was the only way to get funds and he chose to sit tight. Not saying that was right or wrong, it's simply what happened.

Everything needs to be taken into context: total spend, total transfer income received, wages (which many people simply ignore), income from commercial activities, gate receipts, players brought through the youth system etc. You can't just bang on about net spend of X and hence he must be a super manager — the fact that no big club has ever come in for him tells us something.

To sum up, he's been really good for Everton but he didn't invent sliced bread... and in 5-10 years time no-one is going to give a shit whether we finished between 5th and 8th in the past. However, if we manage to finally win something, then that will be remembered.

If want to argue 'asset stripped' and 'selling assets' as two different things then you'll have to answer Paul's question to which Martin was responding. What assets do we have left?

We then may be able to draw a distinction between Bill's 'selling of assets' having not transgressed into act of 'asset stripping'.

But given what we have remaining you've got your work cut out.

So much has been said and written over the months and months, supporters have embedded opinions. We might be on the verge of a good season (I say might be!), we are on the verge of the European Fair Play Rules and on the verge of a remarkably good television deal which will net this club more than enough money it needs to crawl from under its debt, albeit over a relatively short period of time.

No matter what has gone on in the past, I for one would rather see BK and DM enter into these potentially good times on the back of a good season with the supporters accepting the obvious that BK is a true blue no matter what has happened in the past and DM has not done a bad job (the football media can't all be wrong), particularly given the details Denis has provided – 8 out of 10 for DM – not bad!

Not for me a flaky chicken farmer; an American who is finding owning a soccer club not quite the green pastures he thought it was; a questionable oligarch or an oil prince using our club as a play thing. Americans using Man Utd as a source of revenue to service their debt; shareholders in dispute at Arsenal; a cockney at Newcastle I wouldn't trust with my club. Look down the league and only Stoke with Peter Coates compares and they are the last club I would want to watch!

This is The People's Club – keep it that way and be careful for what we wish – BK and DM will do for me.

Do you know of any other clubs that sell the training complex, outsource the kit & replica shirt sales foregoing any profit, outsource the catering forgoing any profit, sell the present training complex only to lease it back at massive rental etc etc to buy players?

What a massive clapper he is.

There are other Scottish philosophers whom were hold in lower esteem.

As for the clapometer Kev, the cameras are connected by a long string to his hands and the lenses are drawn towards him like a magnet whenever he does the big clap (a technical term).

In the next episode: Steve Round's tactical thoughts, an insight.

You can;t deliver a knock out blow to someone who doesn't realise the bollocks they spout.

Ian Burns, you have an interesting point with the 'potentially good times' we're heading for. But then Bill was on the board at the start of the biggest 'good times' of all in 1992. What makes you think he won't screw up with what we have coming?

Asset striping in this day and age means selling an asset with the income thus generated being used for purposes other than the benefit of the original owner(s).

Just selling something from the Fixed Assets Inventory (whether you lease-back or not) does NOT qualify.

Martin Mason, I think I love you.

Sorry, I mean stripping.

Holding an asset fire sale? Selling the family silver? Get out of jail card? Grand fuckery?

I would call it acting in what he believes to be the best interests of EFC.

Whether that is really the case or not only time will tell.

''Creating strawmen in order to score cheap debating points is not going to turn you into a champion orator.'' WTF are you talking about? I have no intention of becoming a public speaker, never mind a champion.

''Your second objection: The words make sense to me, and presumably to the other readers as well, but not to you. Whether I agree or disagree with them is another matter.''
I don't give a shite whether his ramblings make perfect sense to you. Stating that Kenwright has NOT asset stripped the club, then in the same sentence stating if he had it wasn't to pay debt, is, in my view, contradictory.

BTW, you should lossen up a bit. You'll give yourself an ulcer. Don't worry, Martin can look after himself y'know.

Sell the training complex: If we had not had the agreement to immediately sell it back, we would still be in Bellefield. If you think thats a good thing, fair enough. I think we have done the right thing. Of course, the preferred option is to own it. But the money regarding the sale was used on keeping us going. Which upon reflection with the current state of our first team, appears to have been the right thing to do. We have a clause in the leasing agreement that allows us to buy back the Facility every five years. So it's not just on lease for 50 years. If we have enough money, at some point we buy it back (like a mortgage).

Outsourcing of kit/catering: Both streams were losing money and affecting the clubs profitability. Since the outsourcing, we are now making profits. Exactly what is the problem with outsourcing streams to industry leaders? Catering and Merchandise is not a core business of a football club. Again, it has been a good business move considering the fact that it would take a huge investment of money we do not have in order to turn both streams into profitable commercial ventures.

Some clubs do not even own their ground, or have sold stands to other businesses.....

Attaboy!!

I guess I think that its fair to say that we have outdone our finanical resources by regularly finishing in the top 7 over the last 10 years but I agree that it not as if without Moyes we would have definitely been relegated. With wages, net spend and total spends taken into consideration, you would maybe be expecting us to finish 10th-12th or so.

Now once again changing quickly to finance Colin asked “This asset utilization and disposal plan that has been adopted by the board, it can't be sustained forever can it?” ”No” came the reply. “It's inherently unsustainable, won't the assets run out and the loan repayments overwhelm the clubs ability to provide sufficient funds to obtain better players?”

Asset Utilisation and disposal plan
Club not making enough money (Kitbag deal)

Those are the issues

Just when I thought I was out you drag me back in!

Where's our money gone? Why has it gone there?

On the upside, anyone watch Being: Liverpool? I only watched 5 min and was pissing myself laughing. Buck Rodgers is clearly an idiot. I'm massively pleased he's the manager of Liverpool and not us. He's making Rafa look a genius. A couple of my mates now armed with hindsight would love the fat Spanish waiter back in charge. Can't friggin wait till derby day....

Its not just Everton, it is symptomatic of the whole Premier League.

Don't hate the player, hate the game ;-)

To Nick Entwistle #618 - 1992 was a long time ago - one FA Cup win since - and I think BK has learned a great deal since then.

However, more than anything else BK has lived through a great deal of vitriol - this is a far different time and a far greater amount of money - even if you take into consideration the passage of time.

I would love to see Evertonians get behind another Evertonian in BK and give him this chance to see it through and trust him to use the windfall due to the club in the right manner.

He will hopefully be assisted in the new Fair Play Rule - I feel it in my bones Mr. Entwistle - our time just might be coming - we need everybody to push in the same direction.

From my earlier comment, I went through the teams in the EPL whose Chairman might be a supporter of his club from birth. I can only see Mr. Jenkins at Swansea, Mr. Coates at Stoke, the cook at Norwich and Mr Levy at Spurs (although I don't know his background).

Let's give our support to one of our own and be thankful he wasn't born in Moscow or the Middle East et al!

Funny how the debate never changes.

Is there another blue out there?

It not emotion - it is a question of no other practical/workable solution.

So let's live with it and support it.

I am sorry but Bill's method of meeting the fair play rules and business model in general, is to cash in on first team players with a transfer fee now that everything else is hocked.

Put it another way, would you prefer Arteta (or a £10m replacement) in the side or not? Bill equals sales of good players in the future, because he doesn't have the clout to invest off the pitch to increase revenue or reduce debt.

This is not an argument for DM – he is taken as read – we keep DM.

If there is a GENUINE replacement for BK, please let us all know who it is.

You cannot make such sweeping statements, this is not a choice between Milliband or Cameron; this is a situation where we have an encumbent – good or bad – without an alternative.

BK has the experience; he is obviously aware of the supporters out there who want him out... now is the time to forgive/forget and give him this opportunity to see through the coming 2 to 3 years – we could do a lot worse... a lot worse!

Maybe I'm just an optimist and should opt out of this argument! I just hate to see my club's supporters so divisive.

Replace him with who?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21530592/KEIOC-A3-Appendices

If you do I think you can only come to one of two conclusions, either he is

A) a manipulative schemer who is systematically trying to make a fortune on the back of the club;

B) a very poor businessman who, although genuinely well-intentioned, has made some pretty catastrophic errors and tried to bluster his way out with misinformation hoping his detractors will go away and who treated any questioning of his approach with contempt.

I certainly think you would question ever thinking of trusting him. I would tend to see him as the latter and I'm guessing he may have learned a few harsh lessons but leopards don't often change their spots.

If I was being generous the good thing he has done for the club is recruit and retain a great manager but even then he does like to point that out for his own preservation and self-aggrandisement.

Most fans of course don't give a flying fuck about all this if the team is being successful but that's a whole different argument.

I am obviously on the wrong site as I will never persuade anybody to see my point of view.

I have read all of the minutes; I am aware of all of the accusations and I am aware of the vitriol this site has thrown at BK.

However, my point is BK is also aware of the aforementioned and his skin is not as thick as the proverbial elephant. If there was an alternative he would have taken it by now - nobody in his right mind wants to read such comments and articles about his lack of ability and deception.

He has stuck at it - he has continued to search - he is a fighter for his true love EFC. If we had a team of fighters with his determination; love for the club and DM's ability to get the best out of such a team - top 4 would be a given.

I won't to apologise for my support but a great deal of it is based on the fact that nobody has come up with a workable alternative.

We should maybe look at the German league where 50.5% is owned by the supporters with representation on the board - but who on earth is going to start that procedure?

No chaps, I stick with my opinion in that we get behind BK unless somebody has a sugar daddy in their back pocket.

Before talking absolute bollocks, get your facts right about the before and afters of the outsourcing of shirt sales.

Got to be a wind up.

No it's not a wind up. My views are genuine and I have been a supporter of this club since I saw Bobby Collins score from 1 yard on a rainy day at Goodison against Newcastle.

That will have every other supporter on this site scratching their head.

I recall as a child reading the Liverpool Echo and seeing Everton at the bottom of the league - played 6 lost the lot.

I say this only to emphasise how much I love this club and anybody who I genuinely thought would harm such a wonderful institution, my vitriol would be that of many contributors to this site.

BK is not perfect he is a human being - but a caring human being. He bleeds blue as we all do.

My point is you can call him for all you want - we do not have an alternative. He is aware of his mistakes - let's forgive and give him a chance on a level playing field.

Simple question,simple yes/no answer please.
Do you believe we will ever buy Finch Farm back while Bill Kenwright is chairman?

1930s Blackshirts leader, Oswald Mosely, actually had a small tattoo on the very top of his arm that simply said 'Everton'.

Pity you forgot to add the apparent 'facts' to back up your statement. I look forward to you putting them on here, for all to see.

I have difficulty with it because SKY and other media outlets keep reporting clubs have been bought.

Enquiring minds then ask - "well.....why not us?"

It's the edge of an abyss, if you want your everton all fluffy and bereft of human traits such as greed and incompetence - step away - if you do pass "go" don't expect to collect 200 nicker because the bank wants it for all kinds of tittery.

As someone once said "ignorance is bliss"

Could play ''Double or Drop'' at half time too.

If he's still going like.

Unfortunately I only have one weapon and that is the attitude I have taken because I believe that until somebody comes up with an alternative there is no argument.

We can shout all we like (didn't like the analogy with JS by the way!) but until somebody comes up with something different, is all they have to say is what is read on this site?

The minutes make unfortunate reading; Finch Farm is not acceptable; we could go on and on - but the club needs every supporter onside right now because we have a level playing field possibly on the horizon; a major television pay out on its way and if somebody has a name to put forward as a new Chairman, let's hear it!

If not, give BK the chance to get it right this time around,

Or is this site only to serve the past and negative attitudes?

If so, I'll go and watch Arsenal vs Olympiacos and stay out of sight!!

That still isn`t a yes/no answer.

The mission how to blow millions, with no sign of return. £100m plus for a loss making business with debt of around £90m, and need of £100m plus on players, training ground and stadium, it would be for the insane.

He's in charge, yet not up to the job. It's his duty (as a fighter for EFC), to do the right thing by the club.

When has just being a supporter given you the 'credentials' to run a business with a turnover of £80m+?

What do we do when we are finally rid of Bungling Bill, go into the Gwladys Street and pick some random fan out, stick them in charge of the club on the basis that... they are a Blue???

Surely if BK had found a genuine replacement/buyer/alternative, we would have heard, if not from BK, then the alternative in question.

As I said earlier, we need to be careful what it is we are wishing for.

To Ian Bennett, you have said it in one - 90m debt; 100m for players plus the cost of buying out the shareholders!!

Brewster was make believe - so in my opinion is an alternative.

The Chairman & CEO have stated publicly that they have been in talks to sell the club.

I will let you analyse why we have not been sold.

You ask for names, which I cannot supply, but unless BK & Elstone are lying, there has been "serious interest".

I have read & heard that not only do they want over £100m plus the debt cleared, they also want proof of funds for a new ground. All this from a board who have invested nothing since their purchase of the club.

My personal opinion is that we could have a progressive board in place with funds to invest in developing all aspects of the club, but the current incumbents want to make a fortune before they relinquish control.

So the presumption is as stated in your comment, which is unfair given there is no basis upon which you deliver your argument other than guesswork and distrust of the board.

This has got to be the most inane statement used on this site. Why do we need to be careful? All I ''wish for'' is a chairman who tells the truth, has half an idea how to move the club forward and doesn't appear on fuckin' Corrie.

Stewpot, im tellin' yer.

"As we''ve said repeatedly, there''s been a constant stream of interest and dialogue over a considerable period of time and right at this moment that remains true," said Elstone.

"There are a number of individuals, groups and companies interested in Everton and genuine conversations are taking place about future ownership and future investment."

There you go fella.

If it happens, terrific; if it doesn't, we have BK and the board.

Better them than a gamble on a Venkey.

If that is the case, why do you defend this blatant greed?

If we have 9 interested parties; we may have 9 disinterested parties when they see the depth of the debt and the cost of putting this club on a level with the top teams competing in Europe, which is where everybody wants us to be. Put on top the perfectly human wish for a fair payment for the shares held, then it is a massive commitment for anybody other than an oligarch/oil baron.

My deep worry is that BK may just eventually give in to the vitriol/pressure and sell to a Venkey in disguise.

So can someone prove this debt is £90million, or is this just another one of those lies that are posted in order to show Bill and the board to be the liars? I just find it difficult to fathom this kind of defence of the attacks on the board. They are guilty of enough as it is, no need to exagerate!!

Lazy, fallacious, non-argument pile of arse pickings.

Ian Burns. You win, we'll all shut up now.

Why they won't give Davey £20 mil (which they definitely have) to get 3 good ones while the money-clubs throw £30-45 mil at a "maybe" is hard to understand. The real estate venture is dead. Moving up the table will make their property attractive.

They shook loose money for Moyes in the last 2 windows. Myself think it's because he's holding his contract over their heads. Whatever, he's done well with the money.

2nd place and looking good.

COYB

Because they haven't got it....?

Further Reading - 'Leeds United - The Risdale Years.'

Jesus wept.

No one wants a "gamble". Our owners have money they won't spend, even after years of a manager who don't need that much to get the Team up the Table.

Plus, you'll have to be a pantheon-level debater (with a section of artillery) to get past "ring-fenced". If the money wasn't there, Kenright shouldn't have said it.

Although why he's wasting time weeping over a random conversation in some soccer discussion board is beyond me.

Might explain some things, though.

The not putting his own money into the club is a red herring. No businessman with more than 2 neurons would invest in EFC until it's reformed on a sustainable basis. The current board don't have the money to do this and would be off their collective heads if they put a penny into the club.

Tell you what, you put your money in to help the club? I can hear you spluttering now mate. Come on, I'll match anything you put up and we'll invest in the club. Why should Kenwright put his money in if other stakeholders like the fans won't? You want to slag the club off at any opportunity and yet you wouldn't put your own money in neither. You're as bad as Uncle Bill.

Imagine having a car for 12 years, failing to maintain it and then trying to sell it for more than you bought it for. You'd get laughed at and rightly so, yet some think the current board deserve the same privilege. Why?

Kenwright has had over 10 years to get it right and he's failed. He doesn't deserve another chance. Also, the fact he's an Everton fan means nothing. I'm an Everton fan but that doesn't qualify me to run a football club.

"Be careful what you wish for" is another line that gets banded about. For all those in favour of Kenwright, the convenient 'alternative' is "we don't want a Venkys". These people trust Kenwright and co. to sell to the right people but then say "be careful.. ". Well which is it? You either trust them to sell or you think they might sell to a set of clowns, you can't have both points; the use of one renders the other meaningless.

The biggest mistake of this current regime was King's Dock and we're still paying for it now. Most retail / merchandise is outsourced, the Finch Farm deal is a farce and, in terms of other league clubs, our kit deal pales in comparison.

Last summer's transfer window made Del Boy and Rodney look like entrepreneurial geniuses. We had Moyes, Kenwright, Elstone and the players all telling us different things about the same disastrous window. The two recent, successful windows do not disguise last August's disaster nor should they be used to brush it under the carpet.

On numerous occasions, this current regime - not just Kenwright, as the whole board is culpable - have let this great club and its fans down. When / if the current regime goes / sells, what will they remembered for? Nothing springs to mind, especially from a success point of view.

I have a classic bike collection. I buy at low prices, I improve them where I can in a cost effective way and if I sell, I usually expect to make 2-300%. This is a far better analogy for a Football Club sale than a used car. Fans have trading habits based on buying and selling junk, football clubs are far more complex and require a lot more expertise.

I disagree that BK has failed to get it right, the difference in our playing performance between now and 10 years ago is real and significant.

Kings Dock was anything but a “mistake”. It was a potential opportunity (and that is all) that EFC could not take forward in the end because they had insufficient funding and couldn’t raise it on the market. It could just as easily have been described as excellent capital stewardship. We were all disappointed by KD but most of us moved on.

Are you seriously saying that Everton haven’t bought and sold well? Seriously?

They may be seen as “culpable” but only for not satisfying the ego and irrational demands of a tiny minority of our fans.

This club has not been well run since they got in the premiership. Fact. To argue otherwise is folly

Prove that the club hasn't been well run and the standards against which you judge them. That we aren't rich, we haven't won a trophy and that we haven't been sold to a billionaire are not evidence of the club having been run badly.

Please don't fall into the normal trap of believing that the opinions that you've formed over certain events are fact.

Btw, the board can have irrational demands although I don't see many. This is because they own the club. We as fans can have expectations. Expecting us to win trophies is irrational because the odds against are so high.

An easy one to question Barry - if Peter Johnson was an Evertonian and not a RS how would you compare the two? BK is a charlatan, a fantasist and a failed football chairman, the annual returns reflect this in black and white. If the sheeple want to crow about him being a supporter well technically he isn't as he goes to the game for fuck all, he's a fan - pitiful thing is he's a fan of himself more than anything else.

The only fact is that you don't know Bill from Adam and have even less idea of what he has actually done during his running of the club because you're not party to any of it. Every point you raise is an opinion. Sorry but I have to call major BS over that post.

Can you stop with the fallacy that the Board "shook loose money for Moyes in the last 2 windows"

They did nothing of the sort. They gave him the left-overs (after loan interest repayments) from the sales of Rodwell, Bilyaletdinov and Cahill in those two transfer windows, as well as Arteta, Beckford, Yakubu etc in the previous window.

But I do get annoyed when he is accused of stealing the Sky money. People keep asking where the money has gone. This is all in the public domain. The accounts a published every year.

Its all gone on players wages - and thank goodness for that. Studies show that success is correlated to the wage bill NOT net transfer fees - otherwise Arsenal would have been relegated years ago (over 10 years their net spend is, apparently, minus 22m, our is plus 5.6m). Arsenal finish above us because their wage bill is double ours.

Ah, the penny drops :)

This then, from your own mouth so obviously a "fact", is a prime example of why the current board are not fit to run the club. If BK has been searching for investment 24/7 whilst not reforming EFCs business model then he's either a simpleton or he's a liar. Which one of those do you think it is Martin? Personally I think it's both.

Bill has said time and time again that the club is "for sale" or that he's "looking for investment". If he and the board had spent even 1 day a week trying to sort the business out then maybe we'd be in a much better position off the pitch and an even better one on the pitch. When fans say they want a new board they don't necessarily mean a wealthy sheik or someone to pump all of their own money into the club. A lot of us just want a board with some business acumen who could actually grow the business.

But he was a blue and if you were living in Britain the 1930s and had to have a prominent fascist on the scene, well..er..let's face it, it could have been a LOT worse.

I mean would you want a neo-fascist blue, or someone like Hitler or Mussolini?

All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for.

The day to day running of the business and expanding match AND non match day revenue streams is non existent or negligible. David Moyes apart, the chairman and board have done nothing to the benefit of the business, they are hanging on like carpetbaggers waiting for a pay day they don't deserve.

No, I don't have to do anything. You have to provide evidence for your accusations so please go ahead and do it. How about this for a question? We are second in the league and are playing brilliantly. We've bought very well. Here comes the question. Is that not as a result of the board and manager working together to the benefit of the club.

Another question, are we better now than 10 years ago?

Your season tickets give you any monopoly for being right. They seem to make you believe that opinion is fact. Now, examples please.

It is nothing to do with Christine, I'll be equally scathing to anybody else who promotes opinion as fact. Christine made a few statements that are opinion and none of which were substantiated

Well it seems we agree!

Fact.

No money, still in the Premiership mainly in the top half - how many supporters would love a chairman and board such as BK et al?

How many governments, let alone football chairman have been able to work to their business plan? Believe me, it isn't easy and with the constant demands of a top football club in a rich/competitive league such as the EPL, I remain proud of EFC despite the negative opinions expressed on this site.

Instead of constantly voicing disparaging comments, I notice this website has been running for many many years. It must have many fans who continue to see what the minority opinion is and this site is obviously the place to read it.

Why doesn't this website start up a campaign to raise funds from Evertonians; form a Trust; pledge the funds to release part of the debt in exchange for a shareholding and a voice on the board to represent all those who have contributed. This would come with full transparency to report back to this site, the minutes of all board and management meetings.

It would be the Toffeeweb Trust - just to ensure there was no misunderstanding behind the aims of the said Trust itself.

Only then will the vitriol stop and prove BK et al are doing a terrific job (which is my opinion) or the opposite, which is the opinion of most on this site.

At least you would be doing something positive.

Fanciful idea? - Most German clubs are 50,5% owned by Supporters' Trusts - I think there are only 3 in the top flight which are independent.

I think that – given the fact that, for whatever reason, we haven't had much to spend – our manager deserves enormous credit for keeping us in the top half with limited resources. I know from reading Alan Sugar's autobiography that he said the time he was chairman of Spurs was the worst 10 years of his life. Now you may not like Sugar but you can't deny the fellow knows a thing about running a business, and he says – no matter how much money you give the manager – the fans always critisize you. So maybe it ain't as easy as we would all like to believe.

The Board have recognised, and attempted twice to move ground. Both times they’ve failed, that failure is up for discussion but for me KD was a massive shame not to happen, DK was a massive relief to be honest.

Whether we’ve got the best deals on our commercial fronts (Kitbag etc) is also up for discussion but to grow the club, in simple terms, we have to be more successful on the pitch – the team's success leading to increased revenue from tickets, merchandise, more fans, global reach, TV deals etc etc.

Without stating the obvious, that’s the root as to why likes of Man Utd, Barca, and Real Madrid are the biggest revenue earners, isn’t it? It's why Liverpool are still living off their glories from 20 years ago and more? It’s why kids up and down the country wear Chelsea shirts and have probably never been inside the M25? Isn’t it….?

So – how much money would we have to invest in the team to get a real, significant return?

In basic terms, whatever it costs to get into the Top 4 – and when you’re there enough to sustain that position, year-in & year-out, and build on it... which can only really be sustained if you have built a true global fanbase or have bottomless pockets – neither of which we have.

How much for Top 4 then? £100m…..? More……? And how big is the wage bill that goes with those bad boys…….? And, even then, it's still a gamble. Are you sure you’re going to be better than Arsenal? Chelsea? Man Utd? Man City?

Bill and his boys might have a lot of money knocking about but I can accept they haven’t got the type of money to bankroll the club in this way.

So – instead we’ve got to try and scratch our way up the league to try and get there on merit, and use the money wisely when if we do. This is what Moyes has been trying to do, and 7 years ago it almost came off – maybe we’d be having a completely different discussion if Collina had allowed Ferguson's header, what is now many years ago.

Could BK and DM have done better?

We are 2nd in the league playing some of the best football around so ask me today and DM gets full marks – ask me this time last year when we couldn't string two passes together, were in the relegation zone and are heading for some of the most humiliating games we’ve had for a long while v LFC, and my answer might be different.

As for BK, it's difficult to say. We’re in one piece as a club; whether that’s due to him or despite him I’m not sure. For me, KD will go down as his biggest failure though and the appointment of DM perhaps his greatest success, all things considered.

What would I like from them moving forward….?

Carry on playing as we are this season, pray we get 4th, invest in the team responsibly and redevelop Goodison Park. I think our chances of rebuilding a new stadium, which we’d be happy with, within the City limits, are gone.

I got a lot of very good information from Howard Kendall's books and discussions on TV with him, Royle and Harvey where HK said that they had no money and had to borrow to buy.

I can of course show that the club declined steadily before Kendall came. In 1970 we won the League with one of the best teams ever seen in the UK. By 1983 Kendall was almost sacked because of the dreadful performances of his team and the cheapskate 2nd division buys. Just apply logic, it can hardly be classed as improvement?

He demonstrates how easy it is to build a plausible counter view based on very little at all.

The original post illustrates the whole plausibility effect in one go. How do you give BK any credit at all for his 14+ year tenure? It's easy really, you just group him together with Moyes as a single entity. It's the only angle, so it's used over and over, always completely ignoring the almost endless list catastrophic failures, lies and dereliction of duty by BK and his board during this time.

Moyes has managed to build several decent sides in the past 10 years. On these occasions he has brought us close to genuinely competing with the top 5, only to have to sell key players or do without ANY signings when there have been glaring gaps in our squad. Just a modest investment might've been enough to plug those gaps and reinforce our on field progress (as shown this year, when thankfully Rangers' loss was our gain), but on each occasion, it wasn't forthcoming due to the fragile state of our finances. This is BK and his board's part of the deal.......... !

Off the pitch, over the same period, the club were offered the opportunity to completely remodel the club in a true state-of-the-art stadium in a city-centre location, stealing the middle ground from our neighbours, getting a £2-300M stadium for an initial investment of just £30M. A board-member even offered to stump up for it, and was forced out in the ensuing power-struggle! When and how were the club's best interests served during this debacle?

They then embarked on the ill-conceived and thankfully ill-fated DK project, despite every damaging and damning issue being highlighted for months — eventually resulting the shareholders demanding answers... only for BK to change the club's whole constitution in order to not have to answer. Some true blue eh?!

The bottom line is that in an era when practically ALL other club's boards have rebuilt their stands and whole stadia, growing their fanbases, we have stood still... If Moyes was to go tomorrow, we would still be stuck with a stadium that cannot deliver the incomes of almost all our peers. We have in real terms over 12,000 obstructed views, less executive boxes than most League 2 (Div 4) clubs, and this has all been presided over by BK and his mates. Some very rich mates who's wealth has only ever been used to buy ownership, not to help invest in or even underwrite real improvement. We have been overtaken by practically everyone in terms of off-pitch development. Many other clubs now enjoy their biggest average attendances in their history, we are no-where near ours, and have one of the most aging fanbases in the country!

Yes, Moyes is performing miracles and some of the footy has been great, but he has fashioned it all despite the board — not because of it... and people need to be able to separate the functions of each. Our relative success is balanced on a knife-edge, and under-pinned by thin air. If Moyes goes tomorrow (and is not replaced by someone who can do as well on a budget), we will soon see the real state of our once mighty club. Moyes has delivered on his part of the deal; BK et al have delivered nothing!

Perhaps Moyes can go on, and be our Shankly, building a great club from a wreck... but should he have had to, and what if he can't, or decides to go elsewhere?

That said, the commercial and marketing functions at Everton have been second rate for a decade; the general management of the club has been poor. Now that is something that can be changed by going into the market and attracting some real talent to the club to run it.

His 'thing' is basically ludicrous semantics and unless you can show him a video of an event, to back up what you're saying, anything else is "not evidence' therefore you HAVEN'T proved..." etc blah waffle.

(I'm personally convinced he 'argues' just to hear the clickety-click of his keyboards - maybe it soothes him or..something)

As for the Ian Burns position?

Jesus - naive in the (VERY!) extreme.

Gets mental picture of Ianus Burnsicus at the gates of Troy, about 1260 BC

(a kind of a Bernard Bresslaw in Carry On Cleo look)

IB: "Corrrrr! Look at what the Achaeans have left us, a big wooden horse - 'thass nice of 'em!"

(from Homer's 'The Sillilad).

You also dropped your implied insider line on BK and his board, another of your traits: when challenged 360 to provide facts to back up your own opinions you go very very quiet. So do you know BK and his buddies from Adam and where's your carved-in-stone facts? I won't hold my breath as your tedium stretches back over many threads; in each and every one, your MO is repeated – bluster, blather, silence.

It's fun baiting you and breaks up the tedium of the day as your flawed blinkered views are so easy to counter.

*of course that's just my opinion

I know MM's stance on BK/DM, therefore was interested to see what he said; on the grounds that I agree with the substance of his belief on this (and I think ONLY this) topic.

You guys have obviously been at war with him a lot longer that I have; but are you sure that it's not he who is doing the winding up?

Keep up the good work, Martin...

Martin, you are indeed either a wind up merchant or a misguided fool. Perhaps even both.

Just a few parting comments:

1) I have never accused BK of being a crook or implying he has broken the law. Ever. I await your apology.

2) I do believe he is self-serving and the club has been run badly under his and others stewardship. The FACTS are in the disclosures made to the DK inquiry under oath that no board member planned to sell their shares (Elstone); the FACT is the club, under his direction, changed the constitution Articles of Association to deny other shareholders opportunity to question the FACTS around the £71m that didn't exist,

I could go on but this is not opinion, it's fact.

How dare you imply that I have peddled accusations of criminal behavior. Wind-up merchant or not, you cannot debate on facts so you intend to smear those you cannot convince or agree with. Typical.

Eugene mock me all you wish and think of me as ancient as you wish.

My position of support for BK and the board doesn't make me ancient - it makes me thankful we are not Portsmouth.

My suggestion of a Toffeeweb Trust is as modern as it gets - study the German model - quite old I suppose in your mind - but modern in its everyday involvement with their clubs.

Every other alternative suggestion I see on this site is for the non-existent investor otherwise the club would have been sold by now.

You complain how the club is run - the above is your collective way to resolve the issues.

He says the club is for sale, I believe that really he wants investment and still wants the keys to the club,

However, aside from Bill it would be good to look at the other cretins on the board. Woods and Earl have been around a while and haven't put a penny in, I don't think Earl can have attended that many games either.

Bill is a Blue but he is a poor chairman, the other 2 stink to high heaven and are the invisible men of Goodison.

Your response to my comment (808) is "think of me as ancient as you wish".

Eh!!?

Is that what think I was getting at - you're old?

Ffs!!

If someone says to you (as I did), you're like the Trojan who suggested dragging in the wooden horse, you think I'm saying you're... ANCIENT!!?

Fuck me what happens when someone tells you a knock-knock joke, do you answer the bleeding door?

Tell you what, I'll (literally) spell it out for you.

G-U-L-L-I-B-L-E A-N-D I-N-C-R-E-D-I-B-L-Y N-A-I-V-E.

(awaits response along the lines "are you saying I can't spell?")

It needs people far more capable than myself and my advice in addition to any contribution is to study the German system.

There are only a finite number of shares in Everton FC, they very seldom come up for sale, the chairman has increased his shareholding recently but thats it

Tied to those shres having a finite number, the DK hearings in black and white and on oath (throw this in for Martin Facts Only for everyone but him Mason) stated not one of the majority shareholders at the club i.e. the chairman and board are willing to dilute their shares for the benefit of the club - QED a share rights issue is never going to happen and the number of shares available remains little if any

BK and his merry band changed the articles of association so even if you gained shares you have no rights whatsoever to put perfectly valid questions to the chairman or his board

Finally as the majority shareholders are already to a last man millionaires not willing to spend a penny of their own on the club or debts then why the hell should the supporters bail them out of their debts to enable them to sell up at a healthy disproportionate profit to their share investment?

You are also right in pointing out that I don't understand one fucking word you are saying.

Of course there isn't - so in that sense Paul I suppose it is idle chat.

Ian, the idea of a Supporter's Trust has been discussed on here before and though it's been a while since we've heard from him, I believe Tony I'Anson is still working on getting such an animal up and running. I don't think BK likes the idea of losing control of his train set though. He's recently increased his shareholding so even if all the minority shareholders were to pool together in some organized fashion, he'd still have the majority share.

"You are also right in pointing out that I don't understand one fucking word you are saying"

Er...I know I am, that's kind of WHY I said it (!?)

By the way, if you REALLY want to see 'unnecessary', simply look back at all the fact-free bumfluffery you are responsible for on this thread.

From what I can see, you've about 15 posts that add up to little more than..

"Awww, don't be tight, Bill's a true blue".

A master debater indeed.

My idea of a Toffeeweb Trust (Supporter's Trust) was not to take control of the club - far from it.

My point was to raise enough funds through such a Trust to buy a place on the board with the funds going to reduce the club's debt and not to go into the pockets of the present shareholders - a small rights issue if you wish.

The supporters would then have representation on the board and can report back to the disaffected supporters as to the running of the club and create a feel of transparency.

It would address the problems faced by supporters who feel BK et al are not doing a good job - of which I stress I am not one.

The original idea was to take control of the club - that is not my idea with regards to this suggestion.

Such a move would be a publicity disaster for the board if it was turned down - then the disaffected supporters on this site would really have something to complain about!

This is still the case and the team at Trust Everton are still working on achieving these objectives.

As Gavin has said, the current board have no intention of diluting their shareholding.

Your German model solution will not work.

So fuckin what? I collect diamonds. Beat that!

Which is no. I think.

I'd say that many on here try to undermine the club rather than being for it and I stand up for Bill only by asking for some sort of substantiation for the accusations that are made about him. Remember that this is a kangaroo court, the defendent has no opportunity to defend himself and the prosecutors have no evidence. EVERYBODY is anti-Bill and 1 or 2 stand up for him? I've told you a billion times not to exaggerate.

I lost the will to live on this thread when I realised nobody was actually going to answer my challenges. Yes, like getting battered by a dead lamb.

Paul Andrews

This year I did 4,500 km in 2 weeks around Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Real bandit country and I nearly came to several sticky ends. You know, there's only one group of people superior to Evertonians and that's biker Evertonians.

I knew that you'd be relieved. Sorry, I meant Kyrgyzstan after Tajikistan but I bet y'all knew that anyway.

That raised a real smile, the first time that's happened when I've not had wind for about a hundred years.

Fallacy?