We could be two points from 4th with one game to go and still get this archetypal negative TW submission.

Used to be you'd have them after a loss, so after a point I suppose it shows progression.

We know the limitations of the bench but fortunately the starting XI are completely different players, still keeping us competitive.

It's amazing that we have been dropping so many points that we are still only 2 points from third.

Just shows that it is wide open this season from 15-3, no-one os playing that well, Man U have been poor defensively but they still know how to win ugly.

Don't think much has changed. We were an outside bet at the start of the season for a Top 4 slot and still are. As Tony J. (#610) points out it's not as if the other teams battling for 3rd/4th have managed to gain that much of a lead as a result of our succession of draws.

We are basically half way through the season and we are 5th and only two points off 4th place.

I would have taken that back in August.

Lets just see where we are at the end of Jan before we panic too much.

We need to keep clean sheets, but not with Howard. I think the defense have lost confidence in him and we are always playing catch up, or we can't get the second goal. Sorry, but we need a goalkeeper.

I don't understand how top four is a joke...seems a very strange sentiment from an Everton fan. We are certainly the underdogs in the battle, which I consider to be between us, Spurs and Arsenal, as the other two contenders have far better squads, but only arguably better teams. However, unlike Spurs and Arsenal, we do not have to play European football after January.

Howard is a mess atm, but he still makes some very good saves, and Arsenal's goalie situation hardly inspires confidence for their back line...There is also the potential of improving our goalie issue with a loan in January, with Given surely a possibility? I would also say Friedel, but I doubt Spurs will loan/sell to benefit a rival.

I also don't agree with the general point re. decision making...Pienaar should have passed to Barkley at the weekend, but he is generally a great decision maker, and I would say Osman is pretty decent too. Both Osman and Pienaar are good enough to grace the squad of a top four team, and Pienaar when he is on form could play for most teams, or even any team, in the league (we need him back in consistent form though). Naismith and Coleman's decision making is suspect for sure, but then when we have a fit first 11, they will be confined to the bench. My major concern, as the article and others have addressed, is our squad. We must add to it in January, but if we do, I don't see why we can't go for fourth. There are series of good players who may be available for loan, whilst the potential arrival of Donovan would improve us considerably. Imo, if we are 3 points off top four by the end of the month, then we are very much in the running. We have also, unlike Spurs and Arsenal, finished well over the past few seasons. That will psychologically have a big impact. I also think that there is a strong argument to suggest that we have 1) played better than Spurs and Arsenal this season and 2) been far less lucky with pens, offsides and disallowed goal/s.

Nick, couldn't Moyes be labelled negative when asked about our champions league chances this season, or will you just say he's being 'Realistic'?

He said when asked "I don't know, when it comes to it, if we will actually have enough this season"

I'm split when it comes to predicting where Everton will end up come season's end, my heart says we will get it together and get in the top 4.

But even without the probable loss of Felli and his compatriot Mirallas I can also see us spluttering to win games and probably drawing more games than we should probably win.

The January transfer window is the time when our major rivals will be getting out the cheque book and we will be looking for change down the back of the couch.

Whatever happens there is a need to overhaul the squad come the summer because we have too many ageing players and some who just don't cut it when it comes to must win matches.

None of this can happen until David Moyes' future is sorted.

Sadly I must agree with this article. I was the most optimistic fan this season; I truly believed after the first month, Everton would not only finish top 4, but win the league. I was absolutely sure of it. Now, we should simply focus on trying to win the FA Cup, the league is lost, too many dropped points, if only a few things could have gone our way...

For those that have read my comments before, know that normally my glass is half full, and like most Evertonians constantly have my head in the clouds but when you see that we are dropping points against the likes of QPR, Reading,Fulham, Newcastle and Arsenal, and we are scraping home against Spurs, Sunderland with last 5 minute actions, then something has changed from the early season form.

I know other potential 3 & 4th place teams are struggling, but I sense are inability to score, our wastefulness in giving stupid goals away will come home to roost and seriously dent our chance for CL.

Brian, I don't know what Moyes' latest quotes on possible qualification are, but I wouldn't concern yourself with their alignment with reality.

'Mind games' are as much played in the media for your own team's benefit as to upset the opposition. Do you really think he'd say we're a shoe-in even if we were?

The players state the possibility in the press, but I prefer to gauge the potential with what they do on the pitch.

Are we aiming for top 4?

At the start of the season, I was hoping/aiming for top 6 and a Euro-cup spot. Just a reasonable progression given our finances and the limited additions to the squad.

If we were currently in 3rd, would this post be entitled "Top 2 - you must be joking!". You can just never please some people.

Mike Oates (#638):

Yes, Mike but that is just a few of the teams, we really should have six more points than we have now, being generous.

Howard has cost us, and saved us, but we must get a new goalkeeper, and start getting some clean sheets.

We simply do not have a collective, or enough individual examples of, winning mentality. Look at Osman, when a top player would have punished Stoke, he let them off the hook and cost Everton 2 points.

Look at Howard, a keeper who has flapping around for more than a season now, and has never been dropped once. That is a pathetically cosy scenario for any goalkeer, or outfield player to come think of it. You play poorly you should be benched.

Nothing is certain in life let alone football.

Who would have thought with half a season gone Arsenal would be 8th and the RS 12th.

Unlike our supporters the RS will be thinking top 4 or compete for the league.

They may be deluded but that is the belief and "push" that gets teams to the top.

We will always be the bridesmaids as long as we keep thinking like bridesmaids.

As long as we have doubts and negativity that will rub off on the players.

For me if we add a quality defensive mid in January and a Quality GK we have a squad that will give anybody a game.

COYB

Can't remember a P.L. season where so many teams are in with a shout for 4th after 17 games.

Alternatively, this also means we can drop like a stone after a couple of defeats. We will be 6th tonight if Arsenal win. I think we would have been in with a far better chance if Mirallas had stayed fit, he has proven to be quality so far.

We will have a good idea of our chances after the Newcastle game on the 2nd Jan, until then, let's just hope some fringe players such as Oviedo & Barkley can step up and perform when it matters.

If we have the second half of the season that we had last season we'll probably come fourth. We had osme of the best from in the league at that time and a tight defense, we've only improved since then so I don't see how top four is a joke.

Some people are unbelievably overcritical of players. More has been made of Pienaar's miss against Stoke than his excellent header against Spurs. He's regularly near the top of our charts for assists so where does this myth come from that he has no end product? Likewise for Osman, that derby goal has vanished quickly out of the memory for some hasn't it yet there's still a few banging on about his slip against Newcastle and miss against Stoke (no mention btw of Fellaini's miss at West Brom or the number of goals he's been responsible for conceding, or the amount of times Mirallas has missed the chance to square for a tap in by being greedy...I guess all of this is ok if you have a big price tag)

Even for Howard, yes there are undoubtedly better keepers in the league in just the same way that there are far worse. Joe Hart has made a load of mistakes this season, he's still probably the best though, as has Cech, as has Reina (an absolute load), every keeper in the division makes them. We overlook all the saves he does make for the ones that he doesn't and then all bleat 'we need a new keeper'. Or perhaps you've seen some keeper like Vorm or Ruddy have one good game here and there and automatically assume that over 5 years they'd have a greater consistency than Howard yet you don't bother to look next week when they're dropping clangers everywhere.

How much money do you think it would take to find one better than Howard who can play in the first team? unless you get mega lucky with a Joe Hart type.Other areas need strengthening first. He's given us years of really good consistent goalkeeping and the first time it looks like his form is wavering we get on his back like a pack of dogs. All the time we call for loyalty from Everton players yet some at the same time don't show one iota of support for the players when they're not in their peak form.

Mike and Clarance, the swagger and confidence seems to have simply vanished. You get the impression that the Utd result was the best start the squad could have had in terms of confidence. I think over time, that confidence has been eroded. The Stoke game in my view also came at the wrong time, just after the Spurs win. Any confidence gained was just nullified by having to play Stoke away.

Nearly men with a nearly manager. Glass ceiling and all that, if Osman would have converted that gilt edged chance against Stoke, Naismith against Fulham, and a whole host of other opportunities that have come our way this season to kill off the opposition and secure three points we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Going to WHU in sixth place then! We really need to try and win there, but it will be another physical examination.

Here it comes, the doom mongers are coming out of the closet, first Tony Marsh and now this.

How many times over the years have we been piss poor early in the season written off by everyone and then the 2nd half of the season we destroy everyone put in front of us? We are sitting 5th in the league having had some very dodgy decisions go against us and our strong 2nd half finish is till to come when all our players return from injury.

You talk of the small squad being unable to cope but what about the Everton squad that finished 4th with the likes of Marcus bent up front? This is the perfect opportunity for the like of Oveido, Barkley, and Vellios to make a name for themselves, in see it as a blessing in disguise as Fellaini has been a bit off lately.

Yes it is a worry and frustrating that individuals are costing us point every week but on the plus side we are still up there fighting for 4th place and the other teams around us also keep falling flat on their face.

Welcome additions that Jely, Kev and Gibbo are - only Jelavic actually plays regularly.

We are the same outfit we've been for years except we now play football.

Seems obvious Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs being in transition contributes to our 4th ish position. Once they get their act together they'll push us down to our usual 8th ish.

Same result as previous seasons but in a shinier suit.

Ian I appreciate what you're saying and Phil Neville's says it too, but where does this assumption that we are going to finish the season in glorious style come from.
Just because we've done it in recent seasons doesn't mean that it's a given this season. 2004-05 we were struggling to get over the line I think we had 40 points at the half-way stage and ended up with a total of 61.

We can only judge on what we've seen this season and to be honest it's been a mixed bag, first 6-7 games really really good, last 10 hot and cold.

Our points total - which equates to 9 wins and 8 losses - along with all the other contenders is not what it should be for a team hoping for CL, our main problem is that unless we lose Felliani in January we won't be able to improve the squad significantly enough to enhance our chances. Arsenal and Tottenham can and probably will.

I hope that young Barkley can give us something different and that DM gives him a run of games to establish himself.

Oh and since when have DM's Everton team performed for the whole length of the season? It's either a good start (not very often) and poor finish or bad start(usually) and a good finish.

Barry in what way are we the same outfit that we have been for years? New players have come in and established player shave changed position within the team. osman is in his rightful place in the middle rather than beign ineffectual on the wing. Fellaini has found his niche off the striker, Coleman has gone back to RB and we have a completely new rightside whether that be Mirallas or Naismith playing. You can't just say that we've suddenly decided to start playing football when we didn't before, this team and the team that started last year are completely different.

Just watching Arsenal destroy Reading clearly demonstrates what we are lacking at the moment - the quality of correct decision making , passing with pace, and goal taking of the highest quality - how many times recently have our lads misplaced crosses, missed open goals. Our 1st half against Reading was a perfect example - 60% possession, 9 chances and 1 scrappy goal - nuff said

Would that be why Arsenal are level on points with us Mike? One game doesn't make a season, we tore Villa and Swansea new ones but messed up against others in exactly the same way Arsenal have. If you want an example of ruthless efficiency then its Man U but that's why they're top of the league, if we'd taken all our chances we'd probably be up there with them but we haven't which is why we're battling it out for fourth.

Yes Mike #731
Thats what spending north of 35 million on new players sometimes brings

James - the whole article by me is one of frustration, frustration at our recent performances,frustration that we haven't really pushed on from September particularly whilst the likes of Arsenal, Spurs were struggling . I fully agree that that Man Utd are the only true performing team this season - but I suspect the likes of Spurs and Arsenal will push on particularly after this round of games - we desperately need a couple of good wins on the trot - and hope I'm wrong but I don't see it coming !

James, If Mirallas and Gibson played the same number of games as Jelavic I might agree; we probably would have won most of those draws, but they don't.

Naismith is just another "B" grade player we fill the place with - Mcfadden, Rodwell, Gueye and numerous others fit the same shirt.

The others you mention have been around for years, other than Moyes epiphany the reality is little of note has changed qualitywise.

Our final position will depend on the 3 teams I've mentioned pulling their finger out rather than us storming through with the elan of french cuirassiers at the battle of Waterloo.

Brendan — point (iv) in my article: we can't financially compete.

There seems to be an inherent contradiction in this debate. Do people think we're not good enough for fourth or are people frustrated that we can't take fourth because that would imply different view points?

If you genuinely believe that our squad in terms of quality/depth is not good enough to get fourth then why the frustration? Surely keeping in touch until January (should there be any arrivals) is the only level that they can maintain. If you believe that the players are good enough for fourth and that we could claim it but for missed opportunities then that is different.

At the moment it seems that some arguments are castigating the players and Moyes for not taking fourth but at the same time also judging the squad to not be good enough player-wise to get fourth. If they're not good enough then they're obviously not going to get fourth unless they're extremely lucky.

For what it's worth, I think we're more than capable of getting fourth talent-wise and a lack of experience in how to win big games / bad luck / bad refereeing has deprived us of a chance to not be a long way ahead in the race for fourth. Our first 11 is as good as anything that Arsenal or Spurs have (as shown in recent games against them that we generally bossed) and the quality of our football is good enough to see us stay in the scrap with these two teams.

There is so much frustration around because we know we could do better, with this in mind then it seems stupid to predict an Arsenal and Tottenham surge whilst we fall; if anything all of our near misses could start clicking into place and we could go on the run of wins that we've been threatening all season. We are a lot less hot and cold than either of the two other teams.

Patrick, Its all about belief, if we don't believe then we might as we give up now and not turn up. We have been in much much worse situations with inferior players and written off by everyone including our own fans. I was one of the few who believed and knew Moyes and the team could turn it around and I still believe.

Moyes said as much on Saturday, he questioned himself whether we will have enough in the tank, squad, quality or desire to finish fourth, Osman and Howard being singled out for criticism.

The truth of the matter is that a whole host of clubs will be spending big money during the window on a gamble to finish fourth, without the financial clout or wherewithal Moyes will be trying to knit once again with a threadbare squad and empty war chest.

Without clear signals from the boardroom I would expect that post-January we will begin to witness the end of David Moyes at Everton.

This season we probably don't believe because of the paucity of the bench. No matter how much effort those players put in they are not good enough to replace those in possession of the first team shirts.

If we do have a run of wins back to back then maybe the pessimism will abate, everyone who supports Everton want the team to do well, but realistically it is going to take a monumental effort to overcome Arsenal and Spurs despite their being within touching distance.

We are simply paying the price for cutting the squad to the bone and having to hope that the likes of Gueye, Anichebe et al improve their performance levels when they are fit.

Perhaps we started the season too well and now we're left feeling a little flat because our win ratio has taken a downward path.

Due to our abilty of being hard to beat maybe the FA Cup will provide the silver lining for this season.

We're in the position we are on merit, we've had shit decisions that would otherwise see us much higher placed.

I totally agree on Howard, a complete liability to any aspiration above mid-table, we need luck with him in goal.

I don't think we'll lose or gain in January which is probably OK overall. Not concerned about the squad size at all, we've only got 2 competitions to play for and there are players who deserve a chance.

There is not a fourth team racing away with it this year, I don't see any other team obviously better than us at the moment, who knows?

We're still playing for 4th, and I honestly believe 3rd is still not impossible. But I'd be chuffed if we finished 5th, Europa Football will be fine with me. (Anywhere less, I'd be extremely disappointed.)

This time last year, we were hoping just to win a few, so I find it difficult to understand how people can still be negative when there's still so much to play for.

So far we've can competed with the best and I want it to continue.

Please EFC board make some funds available for transfers! Do your job and get it sorted...! We need more than just 11 players, we need a full strength competitive squad.

As a team, we're in dire need of options to use in the last 15 min to turn a game. You can't raise our expectations and then limp out on excuses of being piss poor. I'm hoping we're doing the usual crying poverty but still have a little put aside. I can't see the board wanting to miss out on the opportunity at a shot on Europe.

£15 mill minimum you need just to stand still in the Prem. You can bet it will be another big January spending for Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and the others.

But... if we play the same second half season as last, then Christ... anything is possible.

Could the Stoke game be the last we see of the big Fella? The January sales are just around the corner and we need some reinforcements. Who would give us £30 mil for Felli?

Has Quo Vadis slipped off the radar? Would Lescott fancy a return to Goodison? Given our league position, surely Donovan would be worth a punt even if cover for Mirallas.

Big Vic should be sold to Wigan or Sunderland and Magaye should go out on loan, has the kid had any opportunity? He is supposed to be a central midfielder, at least give him a chance in the Osman role for half a game.

If this is Moyes's last season, then so be it... let's just hope our fortunes turn around in 2013

Typical that this sort of post has come after Fellaini's suspension.
How many points are we away from 4th? 2 POINTS and not even half way.

Howard can't be blamed for everything if there is a defensive mistake at times, and Jagielka shouldn't be immune from criticism.
What annoys me more is that these posts crop up all the time, the same old obnoxious pessimism but when I look at the table we are in a healthy position, and believe it or not a very good GD.
If we were in the bottom half of the table and playing poorly then I would complain.
We all know that we have a small squad, but what can we do about it.
Moyes refuses to play youngsters, and my bet will be that Barkley will not feature this weekend.

I do agree and I was surprised at how poor our shooting is outside of the box, last weekend was a perfect example of how not to shoot.
Not even going to mention Osman's shot but Pienaar again just didn't think, we could of won the game a the death, should have passed.

What's most refreshing is that we have a team capable of beating anyone in the league and playing some of the best stuff I've ever seen from them, so instead of making a list of how we're not going to get fourth lets have a bit of optimism.
Yes Fellaini is suspended but Ross Barkley is the future, let's see what he's made of.

Anto- why would we want to sell Fellaini? One of our key players half way through the season. Moyes has already come out and said we can strengthen without the need of selling.
Vadis will be a prime target for Moyes as he was very keen on him, and the ideal area we need to strengthen.
If Lescott want's to come back then I welcome him back.
Donovan will probably take a break from football as he's publicly stated, it's all very nebulous.
And we would only sell Anichebe if we got another striker.

Barry- Problem is, is that they have no money, it's not a question of doing their job properly.

We are only two points from THIRD position so the feeling of doom and gloom on this site is a bit premature. I have been a blue since 1961 and supporting my beloved EFC has always been a roller coaster of emotions....but I know one thing....David Moyes is probably the best all round manager that this club has ever had. No manager before him has had to wheel and deal with such pitiful finances .No manager has had to compete with clubs who are able to buy players from any part of the world for any price. I am extremely happy with being in a position to fight for fourth and I have great faith that come January we will see the arrival of yet more players who we don't know an awful lot about ,but then turn out to be great Everton players who do us proud . So whilst this season has appeared to to have been an ' if only ' season so far ,I for one am really proud to be an Evertonian and trust implicidly our managers ability to pull yet more rabbits out of hats .

So as the famous poster says let's stay calm and carry on and hopefully come the new year we will have players back from suspension,injury and some new faces to bolster the squad. We have been best of the rest for a number of years now and I don't think suddenly that will change. However, this season could be like 2004 where we finished fourth mainly because of the poor performances of the established order. You never know....but I am really enjoying being an Evertonian at the moment.
When I think back to the pre Moyesey days of relegation worry I can't believe our situation at the moment and I am very excited at the prospects for the second half of the season......COME ON YOU BLUES !!!!!!!

Ever the realist,I have the Top Four as Man Unt,Man City,Chelsea and Arsenal-in that order.Spurs will take fifth with us and the RS contesting 6th.Might see us get a Europa spot so we can see some more of Mucha and Duffey.Moyes will stay for lack of alternatives and Kenwright will stay in charge and receive `expressions of interest` on an hourly basis.That`s my Everton and it will never be anything different!

I heard an interview on the radio this morning where Gael Clichy was asked if he thought the title was a two horse race between Man U and Man City, he said no, and said Chelsea, Arsenal and Everton were still all in contention.

Gavin #810
What with Huths tweet about Shawcross diving and now this from Clichy....it's refreshing to see there's still a lot of humour in the game. At least he didn't mention the Shite....that really would have been ridiculous.

Brendan, I was surprised he didn't mention Spurs or West Brom either!

We won't finish in the top 4, I would put a hefty wager on that.....if I was a betting man!

James Martin #746 that nicely sums it up for me. Well put, mate.

Very pessimistic title to this piece. If its so much of a joke then how come we are so close third?

However I do agree with some of the impediments, mainly:

a) Not enough squad depth.
b) No money to add squad depth.
c) A goalkeeper who seems to be costing rather than saving us points.

If Moyes can do something clever in january with loans and we mange to get Mirallas back without losing any other big players for long stretches then we are very capable of challenging for a place at the top table.

But perhaps that a big 'if'. All blue tinged hopes aside, I'd probably bet on us to end up 6th.

Biggest concern for me at present is Howard. He simply costs too many points for poor errors. He is a likeable guy and has ability but it must just be a concentration thing with him. He needs replacing asap.

Another is a complete lack of creativity. Donovan and KM only highlight how much better we play with wide players who can cause problems. Without KM and now Fellaini it will turn into a real grind.

Mike, whilst I agree with you that 4th is a joke (I never thought we ever realistically had a chance), I think you're being a bit harsh on the squad. Howard has his weaknesses but is still one of the better 'keepers in the league IMO - certainly top 5 anyway.

Our main waekness this season is simply that we have a pretty good first XI but nothing else after that. Should one or more of Gibson, Fellaini, Jelavic, Baines go missing through injury, suspension or lack or form, then our qualitiy on the park takes a nosedive. Can maybe also add Mirralas and Pienaar to the list. We have a premiership first XI but not a premeirship squad.

I think players like Barkely have the ability but don't get enough of a look in, and Vellios still has not had that much time on the pitch.

However in saying that. if we could get a striker and decent CM come January, to provide competition/cover for Gibson, Jelavic and Fellaini - we can have more hope for the second half of the season. At the minute, we're still in the mix (more due to other teams f'cking up rather than great play by us) so we have to be happy. If you'd offererd me top 6 after 18 games at the start of the season, I'd have snapped your arm off!

Tough crimbo period and second half of the season to go - lets hope the rub of the green goes our way and we get some 3 pointers in the next month to stay in the hunt. Its f'king unrealistic but until its mathematically impossible, its still doable - especially if the other contenders keep dropping points.

Looks like JH will be gone in Jan, we have Duffy for cover so maybe we can use the cash to get a decent CM in as priority first - we cannot rely on GIbson to stay injury free - he wont!

Everton will finish 6th and Arsenal will get in the top 4 like they do every season and we wont win the FA cup whilst the manager's sole tactic is to defend once we go 1-0 up- same old same old

I actually agree with Mr Knightley here..

I'm enjoying our football and I can't wait to see what Moyes does in the absence of Fellaini..

However I do take issue with his Xmas 'target'.. surely the target has to be the top?

Edward Simpson, I agree with everything you've said, I'd be one of the first to come on here and back up the board, they're by far not the worst we've had and extremely astute in business (I just wish they'd make more of an effort for us). Whatever they say or do there'll be complaints on here.

We all know their prime goal is looking for the biggest return they can get on there investment. So I expect them to raise the funds needed, we are by far a more attractive purchase if we can make that leap (I'm not giving up the dream yet).

If the manager leaves and our best players exit for new pastures, our club is worthless and all the good work over the last years slowly building up to this would have been for nothing. I know it, you know it and the board knows it. Their hand is forced, they can't afford not to back David; if he doesn't get what he asks for, he's going. (I'd make him sign a long term contract then at least we'll get compensation if he does go.)

If Baines and Fellaini go to Man Utd then you can bet that's were Moyes will be next season.

Just to add the 2nd half of the season will be even tough for us, as we play all the top sides away from home. Arsenal, Spurs, Man.U and Chelsea. Not to forget the shite, we're we'll do well to scrape a point. 60 points is probably where we will end up with with - good enough for europa league qualification.

Last time we finished top 4 was with a negative goal difference and spoiling tactics, we were awful to watch and only scored from set pieces.
We were badly shown up in the games we played in europe and it also exposed the lack of squad depth.

Now we are playing far better football but we have no squad depth.
Its no good taking injury prone has beens or never wases just to bolster the squad and provide bench warming backsides.
Our youth development is poor and so are the reserves.
If they were any good they would be in the first team by now at the expense of Neville, Distin and a few others.
None of them are 'really' pushing for places and thats why we sign the Macfaddens, Hahnemanns, Naismiths and Hitzelbergers.
They are/ were, all bench warmers and if Oviedo cannot push himself ahead or at least learn to play somewhere other than left sided, then he will just be a substitute for Pienaar or Baines.

We desperately need to either develop another young star from the bunch we already have, or buy two or three young players who can really provide some impetus to maintain our challenge.
Mirallas is very good but fragile so is really an unknown quantity until he has an extended run.
Talking about Donovan on loan is retrograde as he is past his sell by date.
He did well when we had him, but he is like Cahill, ; past his best.

If DM gets no support financially he may leave, as this board is not showing sufficient ambition.
He must be really frustrated when he sees a side that is his best bet for gaining a top place left behind due to injuries, suspensions and lack of quality depth.
When a club is at the top it still must buy to stay on top, in our history we have not, so that is why our trophy wins are widely spaced.
To create a team that consistently challenges for honours the top players must be kept and added to.
Also, the scouts must find good youngsters that make a habit of winning against their peers, to back up the first team and provide real competition in every position.

We have no real competition at Goal Keeper, Striker and Play maker.

Trevor #966 - you make a good point regarding our reserves. It does seem incredible that we never actually bring someone through to be a regular first team player. Coleman was a fantastic find for £60k, and I hope he can hold down a first team spot - but he wasn't developed from an early age through our Academy.

Even Rodwell was used sparingly & mostly as a sub. Barkley will probably be used more from the sub's bench, even though Fellaini is suspended.

I'm not sure how Donovan is past his best exactly...he was fantastic during his loan spell with us last season, and really lifted the team. He would also provide a cheap short term addition, which could allow us to give Pienaar a rest when Mirallas returns, and potentially gain us invaluable points in the champions league race. As January has proven for us, despite Sir Alex's claims (Vidic and Evra turned out alright didnt they?), January does have value, and potential for great loan signings. For the purposes of consideration (without looking at the viability of each as a potential loan deal), the likes of Daniel Sturridge, Scott Sinclair, Arshavin, Rosicky, Ramsay, Friedel, Given, Marin and Lescott have been sparingly used so far this season...obviously some of those won't be available, but that such quality is sitting on benches, or in reserve squads, illustrates the potential to positively add to our team. We do need to think long term...but the advantage of a loan deal in January, is that it doesn't need to be long term. As Pienaar illustrated last season, fresh players with something to prove are invaluable, and the right 2/3 loans could be prove the difference between fourth and seventh come May.

"We desperately need to either develop another young star from the bunch we already have, or buy two or three young players who can really provide some impetus" - Unfortunately it's not as simple as this. The "young star" either has "it" or doesn't. The "two or three young players" costs a lot of money or are picked up by the "bigger" clubs, ie Ramsay etc.

We don't stand a chance.....don't panic, don't panic....

Well, we've been there or thereabouts all season, so of course it's a possibility. I personally think we will miss out but I reckon only just. Nothing to do with other teams spending big in January; I just think we've drawn too many games already. Also, the lack of clean sheets is worrying.

I don't think Spurs or Arsenal are any better than us. Ask any fan in the league (them bastards apart) and they'd probably say there's not much between us.

Also we've got a striker now who has started to misfire and that's worrying. Last season, everything he hit went in. Now he doesn't look like he's got a goal in him. Yes you could argue the service has been poor but he looks a totally different player to the one last season.

But, having said that, while we're loitering around the top 4, there's every chance we could do it... I just don't think we'll do it.

Well done, Mike Oates. Your views on Tim Howard were spot on... well almost. You omitted the two worst recent gaffs:

When Kone equalised for Wigan from three feet, Howard could have plucked the ball off his head. Instead, he inexplicably dived behind him, did a forward roll, and came up with his mouth open à la Norman Wisdom. He has to go NOW!!!

A one-way ticket to Memphis/Tennessee or wherever... and he can take Chris Woods with him. Ironically enough ,with Brad Freidel in goal we would now be up with Man City. Until this situation is sorted out, problems in other areas would seem to be quite meaningless.

Early in the season the errors were nullified because we were scoring goals. Sadly, this is no longer the case. Also, I do not buy into the Mr Moyes idea of it being a specialist position he is not qualified to judge. This is his biggest gaff ever and he knows it.

At the other end, Jelavic and Fellaini are heavily marked and others need to step up to the plate. Osman and Pienaar still fill the gaps but their shooting is pathetic. The little South African can also be very selfish when close to goal, ignoring team-mates in better positions. Naismith,on the other hand, can spot a quick pass but is he good enough? Only time will tell...

On a brighter note, the manager has definitely raised the bar and the players are responding. It's just a pity the breaks have generally not gone our way.

Mirallis will be missed, that's for sure. As for Barkley, at 16 he was fantastic but the triple leg-break has taken its toll. Still full of tricks with a powerful shot, he is rather tentative in the tackle and can daydream. Let's pray for the boy and hope one day he fulfills his enormous potential.

The FC Bruges prospect Odjidja-Ofoe creates great excitement. Age 23, 6-ft 1-in of sheer power with a cannon in both feet. A midfield dynamo reminiscent of the late great Duncan Edwards with video headlines describing him as 'A Colossus', 'A Motor'. Anything less than £10 million is a snip.

Finally, a memo to Mr Moyes: When Brian Clough took charge of Notts Forest, the first thing he did was break the world record for a goalkeeper.

2 wins in 2 w/o Fellaini kind of renders this post pointless I'd say?