I have seen a drastic improvement from Moyes this last year. Something that was right out of the blue. Long may it continue.

Best job in the world?!

Are you mad? To you or me or 99% of people on this website – YES!

But Moyes may not think so. So to cite that as a broad brush reason why he'll be staying is naive.

That said, I agree – I hope he stays.

For both Us AND Moyes the real nub of the issue is defined by who DOESN'T. * lists all the usual supects, bit of a self redundant thread.

Would think it obvious by now. If ownership maintains its 10-year refusal to invest, he's going. Too bad. A first-rate Manager in every sense.

What the hell, this is the ownership that gave Wayne Rooney away. An act so impossibly stupid, where's the surprise Moyes' had enough.

Nothing has changed in Moyes's approach. He needed and succeeded in bringing in good players. His squad was depleted and ageing. His spending power was nil until it reached virtual crisis point. He did this on a pittance. This was nothing to do with luck. It didn't take a genius to realise this last season, to see the reasons for our slump, but some people happily ignore context or circumstances and will criticise regardless.

If he has the players we will play good football. He does this, he gets good players on a smaller budget than Stoke, Sunderland, Aston Villa, etc, etc.... how many times does this need to be said!

We needed him last season, and we need him this season. Again, nothing has changed in Moyes – happily this season we are seeing the benefit of his latest purchases. If we lose our best players, let players age, and don't replace them again then we are likely to see a further slump. It's as simple as that. A manager is only as good as the resources he has. Ours, despite being a moody bastard who can't use subs to save his life, gets more bang for his buck than most.

I think the only thing that has changed with Moyes this season is that he's decided (through whatever reasoning he saw) to play Fellaini out of position and it's paid off.

Our turn around started about this time last year, and it wasn't through eventual support from the board, it was through cutting out the dithering and selling Bily (who could have worked out for us but didn't) and using the cash to buy Jelavic, in addition to winning one over SAF in getting Gibbo practically for free, and Pienaar riding his Blue horse back to Goodison with a massive white flag on it.

It was a lucky window that Moyes managed extremely well. I've criticised his managerial prowess on here to the enth degree, but I've always maintained he is a shrewd and calculating businessman when it came to getting the most out of bugger all.

As to who would want him, well, obviously most of us on here, the Apologists and the MOB combined, have met in the middle and are quite happy for him to stay. As Andy said in the original article, a pay cut would benefit the club AND Moyes' image, and go a long way to proving that he really loves the club. That, and maybe get rid of the tracksuits on the sideline...

Chelsea - I can see Rafa doing pretty well there, plus I don't think Chelsea would want him for reasons I can't quite put my finger on.

Man Utd - Loudly touted as Moyes' next job, but I can't see SAF leaving until this current team has settled.

Man City - I hope Moyes would have more class than that, but perhaps those in charge there might see it as a smart move, once Mancini moves on, to employ the one manager who consistently out foxed the richest side in the land.

Tottenham - I think the fans down there demand attack, attack, attack, and Moyes isn't about that.

Unless he leaves the country, which he could, any other job in England, barring maybe Newcastle, would be a step down from Everton, and why would Moyes do that?

Roman #401, cos he's never ever played Fellaini as an attacking midfielder/striker before? He Didn't do it in Fellaini's 1st season or when we had no strikers nor in the cup final.

This is the first season he's playing Fellaini out of position? How many games have u watched?

Moyes is a good manager, maybe not a great one (yet) cos he hasn't win a trophy but objectively, we cannot attract a great mgr right now. Moyes is perfect for us and thus we shud try to keep him

I have always been one of his biggest supporters despite his obvious flaws. I was so sick of watching the team I love flirt with relegation before he came and have seen us become a very good side under his management. So much better supporting them nowadays! I'm sure we would all agree on that.

What we miss is a trophy – but I feel we don't help ourselves by not treating the cup competitions with enough respect. Look at the League Cup semi finalists this year for example – maybe if we had put some real effort in/picked our strongest side against Leeds we could be in the last four with a huge chance of winning.

And if we do get to compete in the Europa League next season, can we say hand on heart we will put our best efforts in to winning it? Probably not.

We won't win the Premier league anytime soon but we can win one of the cups and then Moyes will have won over all those who doubted him and berated him. If you take away the trophy issue he is doing great but I still think he needs to win ANY trophy to have left his mark on the history of this club.

There's always been so much nonsense spouted about Moyes from those who don't like him such as no pressure to achieve anything, easiest role in football, now plays attacking football as he wants to find a position elsewhere, only wants to avoid relegation, not a winner blah blah blah...

All the above shows is the MOBs having to come up with a whole new set of explanations that protect their years of denying the man's qualities. Something's changed, seen the light, luck in the transfer market, played Fellaini out of position... Cognitive dissonance, when an individual holds two or more opposing beliefs, the individual changes or create ones to maintain a belief system and expectations are met in reality. The beliefs that are changed are generally the ones which sit closest to the ego and preserve the individuals sense of being.

Roman, Apologists and MOBs meeting in the middle... the middle? I don't think there's been any shift from the apologists to meet the MOBs anywhere. I think you've opened up the garden gate, walked up the path, knocked on the door inviting yourself in for a cup of tea and pet the dog.

Honestly I could not give a monkey's if he stays or goes. I still think he is tactically average and, just because we are sitting near the top of the league, my opinion doesn't change.

He is excellent at unearthing players but, as far as being considered as one of the top managers about at the moment? No, not having that at all.

If he was as good as some people say he would have been snapped up for a big job a few years back... but he wasn't, so I think – whilst all the other managers and the media sing his praises – those 'in the know' don't consider him for the top jobs because they know he ain't the man.

Everton and Moyes are a perfect match, and the ambitions of our chairman suit those of Moyes.

Nick #415, great post!

The fact both parties have allowed his contract to run out tells it's own story.

The Kenwright/Moyes double act on the SKY sofa last year virtually invited discussion about the subject.

Each normally evasive or prickly they surprisingly had "se vende" signs up quicker than ex pats realising spain's property boom was a fraud.

Who'd take him?

Where some see indecision and stubborness the PR shouts studied carefulness and strength - infallible in the market and noble in his deeds - shit football? he's learned that lesson as journos asked why didn't Spurs come?

Only Pep and Jose are as sanctified but for entirely different reasons. If Benitez can get the chelsea gig then the cupboard is truely bare and anything is possible.

The managerial merry go round gets under way soon I believe both parties have agreed it's time to try a different colour candy floss and are about to hop on.

Nick, I would have thought that many of us have more than one view on any given topic, at least those who think it through would do. Sometimes we have a positive view on something and sometimes a negative one.

There are not many fans who can honestly say that they always believed that the incumbent manager was the right man for the job at all times. Think back to Howard Kendall Mk1, how many Evertonians could say in all honesty that they had total faith in his ability pre 1984?

I dislike this need to belong to one group or another when it comes to the topic of David Moyes's ability, it is on the whole far too easy to pigeon hole people who we may disagree with.

Would it not be far more constructive to take on board all the points being made for and against and argue with those that lack merit and produce a reason why you think they lack merit, rather than just complain that someone is an apologist for Moyes or a member of the MOB.

BTW where can I apply for a subscription to Psychology Monthly?

I'm very much with John Ford on this. I would suggest that Moyes has changed...he is perhaps less aggressive now and obviously more experienced, which has benefited the team. However, I think there is one reason we saw such awful football until January last season: Money. Without Arteta and Pienaar, and with a failed Billy, an ageing Saha and Cahill we had no creativity or decent width or a top striker. We had to for several seasons witness out best players leave, get old, we continually failed to bring anyone in. In January, we brought in a striker who could finish, a left wide man in Pienaar (and creative) a right sided player in Donovan, and one of the most under-rated passers of the ball in the league in Gibson. As soon as the players came in, our style changed. Unfortunately in football, style is predicated on players. At the start of last season, we had very good defensive players, and nothing up top. So we played defensively. From January onwards, attacking players enabled us to alter our style to a more progressive and entertaining brand of football.

I believe Moyes is one of the best managers in this league...and that no manager has improved their team consistently on so little. Wenger has a minus net spend, but his team have fallen from Champions to 3/4th in the league every season(although Wenger imo is an incredible manager). Moyes has taken his from relegation material, to consistent 5-8th finishers. That is success, although it may not be a trophy. And few managers in the last 10 years have been more impressive.

68 points in the callendar year indicates that Moyes and the team are much improved.The quality of football is certainly the best for years-probably in our Premier history so what is there to complain about?
The ongoing lack of trophies,the manager`s failure to address the goalkeeping situation and his predicted stilting of a centre forward who looked half good when he first arrived but has now become yet another headless chicken.
I have little doubt Moyes will be off come the summer to be replaced by Martinez who will offer us all the banalities he inflicts on the pie-eaters.
Kenwright will carry on and seeing the nonsense of foreign owners at Reading (that was a lucky escape for us!),Blackburn and Nottm.Forest,I`m even half glad about that.It must be five o`clock somewhere so I`ll get back to what I`ve been doing all week.Happy New Year !

Obviously Moyes is having doubts if this is the best job in the world, otherwise he'd have signed a new contract already.

We will still never win anything under Moyes.
Cometh the hour, cometh the defensive minded tactician, he can't help it, it's in his make up. I predict he will go sooner rather than later but without a trophy to his name.
For this he only has himself to blame as on a couple of occassions it has been within his grasp and he's bottled it.
I will forever be gratefull for the stability he has bought to the club but at the end of the day it's about winning trophies.

of all the contenders I would fear Arsenal making a play for him if Wengar left. They respect a guy who can work with a budget and they grant their managers the sort of autonomy that Moyes likes.
All the same, fingers crossed he sticks with us,

Moyes will surely leave once Bill yet again tells him there's nowt left in the pot for new players. It's Kenwright who should be most worried about Moyes leaving as this will surely see a backlash from the Moyes disciples — BUT, as Bill tells us, no-one is buying football clubs these days.

Hmm... haven't Leeds and Forest just been sold in the past few weeks???

One step at at time I say. There's still a long way to go this season and although we're playing well at the minute, its pretty tight for the 3rd-8th places. I still think Arsenal and Chelsea will finish above us simply because they have better squads but lets wait and see.

I was a firm Moyes out person in the past (still cannot get over the first half of last season, there was simply no excuse for the football that was played, money or no money), however the last few months has seen a marked improvement but the end of the season is a long way away and I am intersted to see how we do in the cups again.

Whether Moyes stays or goes does not bother me too much tbh - he will definitly go one day anyway and he's already making noises about wanting to try something new. As I've said before, he holds all the cards and we probably wont get a decision one way or the other until at least easter time.

Enjoy it for the time being I say and don't spend time worrying about something that may or may not happen in x months time. Lets first see if we manage to keep all our top players come end of January!

A 'careful what you wish for' sort of guy are you Phil #423?

I always love these one sided posts that denegrate ownership of some clubs but fail to mention the extraordinary success stories of others.

Problem is if we remain the way we are we will join Reading, Blackburn amd Notts Forrests of the league and not the City, United or Chelseas.

Patrick, oooph, where do I begin with that.

Their are differences in 'view points' and 'beliefs' especially when the latter carries the weight of identity which the ego will not wish to sully as being wrong.

So yes, it is all about having different... shall we say, opinions... on the same subject, but more importantly the differences in how the individual's mind manages this dissonance.

Some are happy to acknowledge the inconsistency, after all we are human and not ants in an ant farm, some will reevaluate their belief and consciously change this, then others as I was pointing out with the evidence above perform the cognitive dissonance.

I too have the same doubts on Moyes as the MOBs yet my belief is that he is the right man for the job and the league table yet again shows this, unfortunately it also shows this to those who have for years been doing as MOBs do on these pages and as we see above for some individuals the CD is in full swing.

All I've done really is call someone out on their shit in a very supercilious, yet no less credible for it, fashion when someone is talking crap and they don't know it.

Of course Eric, it suits people's arguments to pick the failures as a reason for holding onto BK et al, and being grateful for what we've got.

A cursory glance at the last decade of annual reports shows us what we've become. Reduced in assets, increased in debts, sell to buy, appalling commercial performance off the pitch.

I don't give a fuck if Moyes stays or goes. His defeatism (and last year's capitulation at Anfield which set the tone for the semi still rankles) wears me down at times. He's a good manager overall, but if his departure cranks up the heat on the real villain of the piece, then maybe it'd be for the long term good. This current board doesn't do long term, unless it's for shite commercial deals.

... and just to add, CD is about having opposing views at the same time, not sometimes positive, sometimes negative as you say. This isn't really opinion forming, more going with the tide.

But then that's football, a rant is only as bad as the last defeat, praise only as good as the last victory.

Eric #432 how does that work? If we stay were we are we will remain in the Top 8 which is where we have been for the last six years.
The question is can we break into the Top 4 and start winning trophies? Well I would say we are as well placed as at any time in the last 25 years.
By the way who are the 'extraordinary success stories' you refer to?

Thank you for the reply Nick, very informative , but what happens when you don't have a CD player? But seriously football is an extremely emotional game and if it was down to pure logic nobody would support any team unless they were champions every season.

I am pretty sure that some who frequent Old Trafford have had or do have misgivings over SAF.

I think that Matt's post highlights the problem that the MOB - if they truly exist - have with David Moyes, his loyalty to the Board of Directors and especially the Owner, he is deemed guilty by association.

I think that some see DM leaving as the catalyst for the Owner to sell and Everton to start anew, however, I think that possiblity has long since passed and only see Everton continuing in much the same vein for the foreseeable future with or without David Moyes.

That is why I believe that David Moyes will walk at the end of the season even though he will have wanted to complete the project.

I agree with Matt,

The capitulation against the shite last season was a disgrace, and his sarcastic admission that he'd got it wrong by not dropping more players was him showing his lack of respect towards the fans. I was definately pro Moyes up untill that point. Now I couldn't give a shite.
It was after these games and a bit of a backlash from the fans that the team started to play more positively and we've been doing it ever since. I reckon he totally expected it to fail and was just waiting to say 'I told you so'. He's now been waiting to say this for almost a year.
On one hand, I do believe he's a good manager and good for the club but on the other I think he's a good manager who's keeping Billy bullshitter in control. That is definately not good for the club.

If he signs a new contract it will have clauses In it allowing him to leave whenever he gets a better offer.

If he doesn't, and moves on, he would be naive to think that Billy bullshit isn't ready to stab him in the back.

Nick, I've seen some of the Moyes supporters of old admitting that the dithering and bizarre substitution were getting to them, as much as some of us in the MOB have admitted to him improving this season. I still think he has his faults and believe that there are better managers out there (there has to be), just as you must believe that Moyes could have done some things differently in the last few seasons. I'm by no means knocking on any door. I still don't like the guy, but if he stays and maintains this current style of play and we are pushing for fourth again next year, my opinion will no doubt change. Still can't forgive him for the derby that Peter just mentioned.

I read yesterday that of the 46 clubs who have played in the Prem, at least 30 have changed ownership since the Millenium. Of these, I can think of only 4 where the change has brought regular success — and I don`t include RS in that number.

So, useless though our chairman may be (sorry, IS), a change would not have brought any guarantee of success. Even founder members Coventry with a new stadium are in the 3rd tier and about to go bust!

So to long for Moyes's departure so that it might hasten that of BB is perverse in the extreme. Think about it!

Roman, your implication is that Moyes has improved (changed) rather than the players at his disposal. I and other Moyes supporters would argue that although he has made mistakes in the past (and still will) that he has always been a good manager who has lacked the players and the backing from his board.

Seems convenient for the MOB to say that Moyes 'improved' at exactly the same time he had some money to bring in new players for the first time in 2 years 12 months ago.

Although Phil, part of the reasons some of those ownership changes have failed, has not been down to the investment, but the way in which the investment was spent. (Although there are of course other examples of clubs which should not have been sold) The guarantee of success ultimately is the manager. Liverpool's failure in this regard, and indeed Villa's (2 of the top 5 net spends in the league since 2003), is because of poor decision making by the management. I think we want money for Moyes, for the potential to compete, not the guarantee of success. I think that must of us will claim with some certainty that, if Moyes had the money of Liverpool, or even Villa, we would be a solid top four club right now, or at the very least experienced Champions league football on a couple of occasions. The irritating thing, imo, is that we have a manager who could bring us success with the investment potential of a Stoke or Villa...but who is instead given the spending power of an average Championship side, if not worse. I believe that in the future Moyes will get his move...and I think we will have lost a manager who is capable of returning our club to where we belong. Instead, we largely have to generate our own funds(and we don't even often receive the full amount from sales), and watch our top players leave.

Fair enough, Sam. Although I do think he's had good players at his disposal in the past that he didn't use or get the best out of. The majority of the players still in our most common 11 aren't new players, they seem to be playing better football than they did a few years ago, despite some of them being at the age where you don't expect that of them. The injection of Jelavic, Gibson and Mirallas have been a bigger factor in our improvement, but I do think that Moyes has handled himself better this year than he has in the past. I've mentioned it before, but I think his post-match interview after the Stoke game about two years ago was his Everton low point, and I just don't see Moyes of today repeating that.

I will have a lot more respect for him, if he takes a 20 % cut in his wages
when he signs his contract. I don't think there is any danger, that he won't sign
on the dotted line.

Colin, there's no way he'll take a pay cut.

I'd have more respect for him if he stopped telling us how great his chairman is. The chairman he's holding to ransom until after January. The worst chairman in the history of the club. Possibly the worst chairman in the history of any club. I don't think Moyes will swallow the bullshit about funds this time around. Once bitten twice shy.

I'd like to hear Moyes's opinion on who, or what is to blame for the lack of investment in Everton for the last 12 years. He can't have it both ways.

Phil #460 to add to Jim's analysis of your takeover success barometer, you've also bypassed the global recession which began in October 2007, one of the biggest factor in those failed takeovers has included an inability to extend credit lines, Everton themselves have resorted to BVI based payday loan deals with swingeing interest rates as the banks closed their shutters.

Now, through fear of leaving myself open to far more qualified "stattos" out there, with holiday time on my hands, I have dared to stray into the world of statistics!

If my inexperiened examination is reasonably correct (bearing in mind a lot of fees are "undisclosed" or speculative), looking at the transfer dealings since the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, Moyes has done brilliant.

If figures are to be believed, he has spent approximately £17.5m whilst re-couperating somewhere in the region of £38m.

Now whilst exposing myself to the glaringly obvious fact that it indicates we are a selling club and opening up the debate on how competent or incompetent the board is, it demonstrates Moyes' prowess in transfer dealings. I would caveat that by suggesting he should stick to his obvious gift for spotting potential (Championship, Scottish Prem, so-called Tier 2 of European clubs etc) rather than big buys as to my recollection only Fellaini has really been a success in that category.

The point being, regardless of the cirumstances and where you stand on the whole Kenwirght good / Kenwright bad argument, how refreshing to see a manager at the highest level of the modern game develop and improve a team through shrewd investment and coaching.

Liverpool incidently appear to have spent £56m more than their incomings in transfers over the same period and in my opinion have declined on the pitch. Bearing in mind Moyes is 20m in credit, is there an argument to suggest money isn't always the answer, even in this Sky dominated, money obsessed era of English football? Dortmund experience anyone???

Sam @ 461

"Seems convenient for the MOB to say that Moyes 'improved' at exactly the same time he had some money to bring in new players for the first time in 2 years 12 months ago."

This swerves the point: the money was self generated by his transfer dealings — an option always available throughout his ten years.

Getting it "right" or at least vastly improved completely downs the "no money" excuse — the only change has been his decision making.

It is complete vindication of those challenging the way he set teams up and the spurious claim it was entirely down to money.

[Stables the high horse for a nice cup of tea.]

Who wants David Moyes?

Obviously no-one who owns a richer/"bigger" club than Everton, otherwise he'd be gone already. The manager merry-go-round has been in full swing in the last 10 years with virtually all Premier League clubs other than Man Utd and Arsenal replacing their managers several times... and Moyes is still at Everton. I don't recall him turning down any offers.

I think we could do a hell of a lot worse, but I still see a lot of issues with Moyes. Unlike some, my views towards Moyes aren't polarised. He's a good manager and probably a good fit for the type of club we are, but he also has issues.

I'd like to see him buy and sell a lot more to make the best of our budget, rather than pressuring Kenwright for more cash. He keeps ageing stars past their best (Cahill/Saha), and doesn't quickly move on those he doesn't rate (Bily).

I'd also like to see him use youth a bit more (Barkley, Duffy & Vellios for example), rather than either play seasoned players out of position (Neville & Heitinga in midfield) or get in players who are journeymen (Stracq & McRooney).

From the other side, I'm not sure any of the richer clubs would be willing to stand by him for 10 years without winning a trophy, or stand by him while finishing 17th. From Moyes's point of view he has the most secure job in world football so long as Kenwright can keep his train set.

Personally I think he'll sign a new contract, but I really can see it disrupting our season. If he wants to bring in any new signings or persuade existing players to stay, how can he do that with a straight face when he only has a contract for 6 months himself?

Wayne " I'm not sure any of the richer clubs would be willing to stand by him for 10 years without winning a trophy". Well, of course not, if he'd been given loads of dosh at that richer club, which he hasn't been given at EFC! Are you saying he wouldn't win anything in 10 years at a richer club?

Wayne @486,

Good points and agree on the non-polarised view. Moyes has been good for Everton at this point in our history. Undoubtedly we are a vastly improved outfit from the one he inherited but he has his flaws; mainly stubborness to identify and notice the need for change, both in terms of transfer activity and during a match when plan A isn't coming off. It is perhaps this loyalty that gives Everton their widely recognised old fashioned sense of team spirit that other clubs cannot buy, but I accept it is frustrating at times.

Reference your last point, in an ideal world I would agree with you, but we live in the era of the mercanary footballer where it is not unheard of or uncommon for players to sign for clubs with no manager appointed.

Point being, they don't care as long as the wages are right. Obviously influenced by the agent convincing them the deal is good (based on the agent's slice)!!!

Re-wind to the mid/late 90s and holidays in France in late April / early May could be fraught for me. Sat in the car trying to get news on the radio of vital late-season points to avoid the drop. Now we're here, it ain't even New Year's eve yet and we're sitting comfy, looking forward to a six-pointer this weekend against Chelski, at the right end of the table.

Enjoy, ffs!

True, it's disappointing that we've not won any silverware (tbh though, I feel more sorry for Davey on that point than I do for myself). Perhaps I'm a rare sort of fan, a grateful one! There aren't many of us around - look at the thousands of Gooners baying for Wenger's blood at the Emirates - a stadium he practically built for them! And what football they had to watch. But people forget that. The "invincibles" tag counts for nought now.

Football has changed (not necessarily for the good, I grant you). "When I were a lad", winning the FA Cup really meant something. That Saturday, dominated by wall to wall coverage from the players getting out of bed in the morning, to 'Cup Final It's A Knock-out' and all the rest of it, it was the biggest day of the year -Xmas included. No longer. But being in the Prem, year in year out, well, that's a little bit like getting to Wembley every year. Just ask a Portsmouth fan if you don't believe me!

I'd say there are many more Manure, Citeeh, & Chelski fans who want him than there are Toffees who don't. OK on reflection I admit that might not amount to a lot...

Brent, the point is he wouldn't get the ten years, or anything like it. A large investment is made in the expectation of a swift return. I don't think Moyes has got what it takes, but it'd be interesting to see him try.

Whatever we say on here, ex-pro's & coaching staff who have been in the game for 20 or 30 years know more than any of us.

So we will see if Moyes is finally offered that "big job" his talents deserve. Let's face it, he has 6 months left on his contract, so the likes of Man U or Arsenal will have already have been in touch with his agent.

I have been watching reviews of seasons gone by today in the P.L. - I find it astounding some of our fans mention Moyes in the same breath as Wenger. We have NEVER even got anywhere near to their style of play. The best team to watch in the League for many, many years. Never mind the trophies won or players he signed.

David Moyes has consistently made a silk purse (of sorts) out of a sows ear. With the cattle, and small herd to boot (to mix metaphors), we've had over years, and our budgetary constrains/sell to exist circumstances, our Board etc., how we're not in the Championship like the Blackburns, Boltons and Birminghams of this world, is down to him. Those who grizzle about his 'dithering', inexplicable substitutions, etc., need to take a reality check. SAF is clearly of the same view. If he's the primary influence in relation his own successor, I can see Moyes going to Man U, perhaps for the initial period with SAF in a transitional role.

Kevin if the top clubs don't have a vacancy they're not going to come calling for Moyes. Man U aren't going to give Ferguson the boot just because Moyes is available, it doesn't mean they don't rate him though. If Arsenal don't want Wenger to go and he doesn't want to leave then Moyes isn't going to get that job either. By your logic Neville is a top player because Spurs came in for him, no one has of yet tabled a bid for Fellaini so he musn't be as good as some people think he is.

As for Arsenal, I think they were a lot better in previous years than they are now. It doesn't take a genius to work out why, if you have Fabregas and Van Persie in your team then you're going to play better football than having Coquelin and Giroud (is that another club in the league apart from us who are a 'selling club'? surely this isn't allowed?!) Wenger inherited a very good set of players from Graham (including a great back 5) and was given the money to buy top talent and develop it. That is very different from Moyes who was given an ageing relegation tipped squad and barely any money.

Are we closer to Arsenal than when Moyes first started? Undoubtedly.

Are many teams in the league playing better football than us at the moment? No.

Over the last ten years we've seen some dire football (start of 2011/12 sicks in the mind) but we've also seen some free flowing stuff too and have on occasion completely bossed Arsenal at their own game. 80% of it has been between these two extremes, it hasn't been like watching Stoke and it hasn't been the Nou Camp either.

For what its worth I think that when Moyes has possessed good players we've played good football. Teams consisting of Arteta Pienaar Osman Baines Lescott Donovan and Yakubu did not just bash it from front to back and several commentators started labelling us Arsenal-lite. Equally teams containing Anichebe, Rodwell, McFadden, Heitinga, and Neville in the same midfield did not zip it around.

I don't agree with people who say you can get bad players to play good football and get results, as Brendan Rodgers is finding out, you can't. I think Moyes has always done the best with what he's had and tried to find the best ways to get as many points as possible. Some years with bad squads this just hasn't been possible. This year even with a small injection of talent he is showing the consistency his teams are capable of against the legaues big spenders.

James, if Fergie retires at the end of this season, and Moyes is available on a free - do you think Man U will go for him? Similarly Arsenal?

Denis, that was the point that Wayne was making and I was agreeing with - i.. if he didn't deliver, he'd be out. But I was also in effect saying that as he would have more to spend, then he'd be more likely to get the trophies.

An £80M budget to work with is not a pittance. People talk like the guy has been working with just a budget suited to the Championship.

It's less than many teams get, but more than most. Moyes has had to sell to buy, but what is wrong with that? That's life for most of us and that's certainly what I'd expect a professional "manager" to be able to cope with.

Brent, who knows if he would win something if he was given another £20-30M per season, or more, to work with? The point being that, when you have that money, it's not enough just to win things. You have to win things consistently and with style and be able to handle the extra special brand of prima-donna player (and chairman) that comes with the territory. The teams at the top have a global brand to protect and Moyes can't so easily fall out with the top star and relegate them to the reserves.

How would Moyes react when some chairman tells him to sign or play his favourite player? At Everton, he has complete control of everything from the reserves to the first team and he is the one pushing BK around, demanding this and that.

As we've seen, a few million quid of compensation to the richer clubs is not something to put them off poaching a manager (or a player). If Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City, RS or Spurs really wanted Moyes, they could have (had) him at any point over the last 10 years... So, despite all the comments of his peers (comments often made a couple of days before they do us over), it's clear what the chairmen actually think of him.

Kevin in all honesty I have no idea, could anyone of predicted that Rafa would ever end up at Chelsea? That Di Matteo after being fired by West Brom would win the champions league with them? Who knows? They might have a look at him, obviously if he's in a shoot out with Guardiola they're not going to plump for him but all of these things don't make him a bad manager.

Wayne, Man U and Arsenal have both been very happy with Ferguson and Wenger over the past ten years, why would they change? City have only recently come to prominence, similarly Spurs, Moyes would not have considered going to either of them for most of the 10 years he's been here. I can't believe you're bringing up the RS, even if Mourinho was managing us their board of directors would be wary of going after him such is the animosity between the fans, equally ours wouldn't let him go to them, equally would Moyes have really wanted to go? A ridiculous example.

Moyes's budget may be more than most get if we're talking about all the divisions of the English game but if we're talking about the top half of the premier league (where we actually exist) its not more than most is it? Moyes has never had what O Neill had at Villa or what Redknapp had at Spurs, Rafa at Liverpool, or even Pulis at Stoke: £10-15 million at least every summer transfer window to freshen things up, even more if they wanted to trade in some players. Moyes has generally worked only from the budget generated by his own player sales, players he developed (Lescott, Rodwell, Arteta).

I don't understand this criticism that Moyes wouldn't be able to handle star players, he's handled all the good ones that have been at Everton. Equally unless he went to Chelsea or Spurs he wouldn't have a meglomaniac owner, Arsenal and Man Utd give their manager support. The complaint about winning in style is also doubtful because Moyes has already worked under that pressure for a long time, take a look at this site, all you get is people going on about the brand of football even when the playing squad is utter garbage. That is the same at every club and all the evidence shows that given a squad of top players Moyes would have them playing good football the way that he does when he has good players in his Everton teams.

Half of me hopes Moyes does go, he deserves it. Massive signing-on bonus, unlimited cheque book in the summer with his choice of the world's top players to add to the ones he already has, and if it all goes wrong he can walk away with a couple of million with his reputation no worse off. Beats sticking around here having to sell your best players every season with a fanbase bemused as to why you can't win the league every season, shouting at you to play some 19-year-old kid every game who no-one has barely ever seen play.

I'm a Moyesist and hope he stays.

Over 55 years supporting my NYC teams and a sports fan in general, one conclusion I've come to is the position of Manager/Head Coach is over-rated. Waaaay over-rated. Very few count. However, Kenwright and them tripped and fell into the Scotsman, David Moyes; one of those few who count.

After 10 years of "making do", it's now or never with Moyes and current ownership. Standing in his shoes for a moment, what is there else for a manager to do with a deep-pocketed ownership which won't shake a little loose?

It's really too bad. Some reasonable, annual investment could have pushed us into the Top 4 years ago. Moyes hasn't had enough of us. He's had enough of Kenwright et al.

He proved himself ambitious in our table positions these years. Ownership's been satisfied with "good enough, Davey". No team wins titles without ambitious owners. We don't have them. Be shocked (delighted, but shocked) if status quo is fine with our owners yet Moyes remains.

James, while I do agree with a lot that you're saying, don't forget that three of our most expensive signings ever were probably inflated because Moyes only signed them on the deadline day.

I'm not absolving the board of blame in our transfer (or lack thereof) dealings, but as good as he is playing now, Fellaini was not worth the £15M we paid for him in 2008, and the club had to beg, borrow and steal at the last minute to pay Boro over the odds for Yakubu. could be talking anywhere between £5-10M saved had he not dithered about in those two summers.

Bilyaletdinov — well, as much potential as he had, would Moyes have signed him if he'd cut his losses with Roger a few weeks earlier and had some time to really spend his money wisely (which we know he has the ability to do) and not bought a player that didn't fit his system?

To his credit though, waiting a year to buy Johnson did save us quite a bit of money and probably didn't affect our league placing too much. Also, taking a punt on Gibson for nothing has essentially bought us a 10-15 goal striker as now Fellaini isn't buried in midfield.

Moyes is where he can be at this point in his career. Over the last 10 years, we are where he's put us. Title-winning clubs first and foremost require ownership bent on winning titles. Kenwright et al aren't them.

I really want Moyes to stay. He's one of the miniscule number of Managers / Head Coaches, in any sport, who make a difference.

I think his ambition to succeed, unless ownership have a dramatic about-face financially, will be fulfilled elsewhere. Really too bad.

Mr Moyes is a class act. OK, he makes the odd mistake but who doesn't? His standards have definitely gone up a notch these past 12 calender months and I like the squad he has put together. Apart from the goalkeeper who goes into flap whenever he has time to think.

Why do some our fans still consider us to be a big rich club? We are not. What we are, thanks to Mr Moyes, is a club which consistently punches above its weight and is known and respected worldwide. That is a fact. The Premier League has a huge global audience.

Moyes might just as well leave, with his £65k-a-week, he has my blessing to fuck off. His handling of of youngsters has now become a farce, looking at the bench the other night vs West Ham was the bitter face of Barkley, and my God has he got a reason to be!!!!!!!!!!!

Since his recall from Sheffield Wednesday, Moyes has let him have fuck all playing time, that despite the fact that Barkley has more match practice then both Neville and Hitz at the moment, because Barkley has NOT been out injured this season.

So, again why is Barkley not the first pick in our midfield at this time? Moyes lacks balls, and it is destroying players like Barkley to just sit on the bench, while he could be out on loan playing.

Youngsters and handling them is the one thing I hate about Moyes, but it is getting worse each season that I do not see a young Toffee out there on Goodison Park with our first team.

Barry – 482. Who exactly should've he cashed in earlier other than Arteta, Rodwell and Bily? The one of which was injured, the other £10m went to the bank/recovering from injury, and the last that raised £5.5m which buys not a lot.

As I have posted on another subject close to this, I was under the impression that Moyes was going to decide his future after the January window had closed, ie, clarify just how far the board were willing to support him now that he has us challenging for a CL place once again. I would presume his only option, now that it has been established we have no money again unless we sell, is to leave. He cannot take us any further than were we are now without genuine investment, season upon season.

This is a potentially huge month for the board. We fail to strengthen and lose out on a CL place then the blame will lay at the board's feet. Fellaini, Baines and potentially Jelavic could all leave. AVB and Wenger will buy, no question. We need cover in several areas also. Hopefully Moyes and Kenwright both know what they are doing.

Ian (#612) — I do believe we had a £8m offer for Saha at one point. Cahill (legend though he is) probably could have been sold a season earlier for a lot more.

Yak came back from his injury, played okay then was relegated to the reserves and Moyes basically made it clear that he didn't have a future, so our £11m investment was let go for a pittance. If Moyes didn't rate him, he should have still worked with the guy, played him but quietly made it known he was available, rather than stick him in the ressies to rot. Yobo had similar treatment.

James (#560) — we'll have to agree to disagree. I disagree with virtually all of your points. Particularly that Moyes is under pressure to win with style. The guy is not under any real pressure to do anything compared to other managers in the league.

What some of us say on here has absolutely no bearing on how pressured Moyes feels. In fact, even when the football is shit (which it has been for most of Moyes's tenure), many people on here make excuses for him about not having the money to work with... they overlook the fact that lower league teams assembled for less have often out-passed us and embarrassed us with our hoof-ball and head tennis. (Credit to him though, our football for the last 12 months or so has generally been nothing short of superb.)

Pressure most often comes from the chairman and we could be bottom of the league in January or finish 17th, and Kenwright would still be solidly behind him provided Moyes does not rock the boat. I think he is the least pressured of any manager in the league and probably in Europe because Kenwright just wants to hold onto his trainset.

Wayne, we will definitely have to disagree then: 'lower league teams assembled for less have often out-passed us and embarrassed us' — When? A few cup upsets isn't often.

We've barely strayed outside the top 8 and apart from Arsenal giving us a few hidings who has embarrassed us? If anything we were the ones who dished out a few thumpings over the years. I think it's exactly because he is under pressure that for parts of his tenure the football has been bad.

Easisest thing in the world to do what Martinez does and have a bunch of average players passing it nicely to each other. How many of us on here would tolerate being in a relegation fight every season? Do you honestly think that if Moyes had Anichebe, Neville, McFadden and the like passing it in pretty triangles that we'd have won many games at all?

The hardest thing to do is to play well and get results in the Premier League, you need to be a top team to do it consistently as we have only just started to do. The point a lot of people are making is not that Moyes couldn't play good football because he didn't have any money, it is that Moyes could not play winning football in a good style with the players he had at his disposal. Now that he has good players, he is.

Whatever example of a lower league team you can think of that has been playing good football in the Premier League, I can guarantee you will not have finished higher than Moyes's Everton of the past 5 years. Mowbray, Holloway, Di Matteo (WBA), Martinez, Rodgers – all came with their claptrap about playing good football and all got relegated or finished behind Moyes. If you don't have the players, you can't play it well, its that simple.

It may look good on MotD but it doesn't get results if you're not at the right level and every year of Premier League history proves it. Moyes can see this, whatever team he's had I believe he's always picked a tactic that has given us the best chance to get something from a game. If you've got a terrible team, I'd rather have a year of hoofball and finish just outside the European positions with the prospect of rebuilding next season than pretend we're Barcelona, have a few days in the sun being adored by the media but ultimately go down or finish in the bottom half.

Once again, hoofball and head tennis in a team that contained Arteta, Osman, Pienaar, Baines, Lescott and Yakubu – doesn't really add up does it, that might be because it never happened that season.

Wayne — I'd agree with those, although we don't really know what was offered and the terms of the deals (drip, relegation clauses, Champions League clauses etc) what had to be paid on to players, agents, former clubs, and what would be retained to spend elsewhere.

West Ham were supposedly interested in Yak, and not selling him was a mistake as players rarely come back from an Achilles injury.

My personal view was that Cahill and Rodwell had been up for sale for at least 12 months with wages and injury slowing down deals. I suspect some of the lack of player movement came from our players being on wages they couldn't get elsewhere, and with us not in the position to subsidise the differential.

Wayne: "many people on here make excuses for him about not having the money to work with... they overlook the fact that lower league teams assembled for less have often out-passed us and embarrassed us with our hoof-ball and head tennis."

Some have, occasionally, but we embarrass them by being in a higher position.

What a load of cock.

Thank goodness Moyes is more consistent than you are. Last year you said this. Now you say that.

Who cares?

Whatever, if we win tomorrow, we start the new year 3rd, heady days

James Martin, another excellent dismantling of MOB thinking.

Don't forget - you can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into. So nothing will change.

Moyes has shown that his teams are capable of playing both ugly or pretty football, and winning points both ways. Which style he opts for usually depends on which players he has at his disposal. He is a very good manager who like everyone has his flaws. We are fortunate to have him and will be fortunate if his successor is able to maintain let alone improve on his work and league finishes.

John Ford, I don't think he does any such thing as explained by a bright young man @ post 482 .

Unassailable I think you will agree.

Moyes, after bottle-feeding and changing generations of aspiring youngsters nappies, has produced how many home grown players? At my last count, the total is a big fat ZERO.

There has been a few who showed promise up to coming under his direct control in the first team squad and that's about the total. Quite apart from better wages, the best thing Rooney could do for himself and England was to get as far away from Davey's influence as possible. Exactly the same can be said for Rodwell — and I suggest Barkley would be wise to do the same.

I have no respect for a bloke who from day one sets a target of Premier League survival. His basic negativity ruined the very rare opportunity of winning something.

I am amazed that so many Evertonians have accepted without complaint a man who deliberately sets out to lower expectations.

Nail on head, Dick. I took the liberty of copying that onto another thread...

James (#636): "If anything, we were the ones who dished out a few thumpings over the years" — Really? I think I'm going to challenge that one, James. What 'thumpings' are you thinking of?

And perhaps you'd better define 'thumpings' — Could it be that your definition of a 'thumbing' is any game won by more than a single-goal margin???

Dick (777):

1. This is the Premier League, mate, not the old Football League, where everyone could produce a Roy of the Rovers and half a dozen of his mates in their own back yard. It being a world market and given the standard required, the law of averages alone means nobody's going to be able to produce many home growners. Possible in the Championship and L1 and L2 maybe.

2. He has to 'set a target of Premier League survival'. That's reality with the resources he's got, and that's what all but 3 of the other PL managers do too. If we don't survive in the PL, we are rogered – with the loss of the PL money, our financial situation and our board, we'll be in L1 or 2 in no time flat, maybe administration and history.

Think about it for a nanosecond: how many of our squad would make a regular 1st XI at MU, MC or Chelski? Along with the 16 others, we have no chance of winning anything – except maybe the League Cup (or whatever it's called these days). That's not 'negativity', that's reality.

Maybe Newcastle could come knocking..........

Steve, we have now banked almost 12 months of football that blows a massive hole right through this moribund 'money & resources' negativity you are trying to perpetulate. I just read a stat somewhere that Everton are third behind Man City and Man Utd in terms of points won in 2012, two ahead of Chelsea, and well ahead of also rans like Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool. How could that be possible given the often-claimed disparity in resources?

Indeed, so many Moyes lovers on here claimed it couldn't be done, while we who hold him to a higher standard have long believed that the thing holding us back was his own cautionary negativity and dithering conservatism.

Call me old-fashioned, but I am just happy for us to win. I couldn't give a rats ass if we win by 1, 2 or 10.

The fact that Moyes has one of the highest win ratios as Everton manager and is the best non-moneyed manager over the last 10 years appears lost on some. 3 manager of the year awards tells you our problem isn't the manager, it's the feeble resources that he has to play with.

The two sticks that the mob continue to trot is the Premier League survival mantra and lack of trophies. How many relegation scraps did we have in the previous 10 years and how many under Moyes's 10 years? If it's that bloody easy, why is Paul Lambert, Martin O'Neill, et al not out-performing Moyes?

Yes, the lack of trophies pisses me off, stupid performances against Leeds etc, chocking in the big games... but if Moyes had won against Chelsea, or beat Liverpool, the mob would still want him out. He's not an ex-player, he's not from the parish, he will never be their man.

Ian, with respect your 2 sticks to beat him with are only results of the real problem - woeful football based on fear.

The financial crutch relating to how we play and consequently better results has crashed and burned. No money beyond transfer dealings produced Jeli and co.

Why Moyes himself has changed is another subject.

Michael, in the words of Peter Falk, I'm confused by this.

If I understand you correctly – you highlight how well Moyes has done in the past 12 months having spent nothing (not actually true). Then you use this relative success as proof that money doesn't have the significance people claim it does. Really? What? I'm all for this resounding endorsement for our man but have you seen the list of trophy winners in the last 10 years – it relates almost exclusively to money. That much is beyond debate.

Don't forget we signed Pienaar and Mirallas in the summer. You are also forgetting how essential the last January window was after a period of very low investment, particularly with Jelavic and Gibson.

It was Moyes's outstanding use of limited resources over the last twelve months which is precisely the reason we are competitive now. But it's absurd to then use this fact as proof that we should be able to compete ad infinitum with next to nothing to spend.

No-one said we couldn't be a good team. But Steve is right that we have virtually no chance of winning anything. Our excitement over just finishing fourth, ironically, points to that. It's also made clear when you look at team names on trophies over the last 10 years – they whiff of money.

Show me a team who regularly buck this trend. You can't..... because there isn't one. Who gets closest to this, and does so more regularly than anyone? David Moyes's Everton. It's a bit much to then use this against the man.

John Ford (#808)
Spot on. Moyes gets money to spend & the team's fortunes improve considerably... yet apparently it's nothing to do with money?

Barry R...aka the 'young man' at #482

A decent net spend on players seems at the moment to be the only way to keep a team competitive. Certainly it's a straightforward job to match trophy winning teams with commitment to a net spend. I've not seen anyone maintaining a strong challenge through recycling players/cash in the way you propose, though Moyes is good in this way. Surely it's too much to expact this season on season?

I suppose Wenger is a shrewd customer in this regard, but when his net spend dropped, hey presto! – he then stopped winning trophies.

I'd like to see us with £10m net spending ability per season. That's not huge but I'd hope with good management we could have a right good go.

Kudos by the bucketful for the reference to your own earlier comments!.... the only other person I've seen do that is Richard Dawkins, and he won't be near MotD anytime soon.

Those who have been proven wrong by Moyes go to great lengths to conjour up the most extra-ordinary excuses for him holding us back. The irony of this stance is so amusing that it is hard to stop laughing long enough to type a response.

We have not won a trophy in his ten years, but we are now challenging the top half of the table. The next step is of course to move forward and challenge for silverware. The time is now ripe and we need to push on. Question is, will we?

"Proven wrong by Moyes"... Dean (#814).

Nooooooooo... they've been proven right. If only Moyes had played the expansive football (that he didn't have the players to play) we would have won the league.. 3, 5, 7 years ago.

Little bit pissed, but the question the OP asks is "Who wants Moyes?"

We have many reasons stating why he is the man. So, can some of the 79 posters say what club will start the 2013-14 season with him in charge, if he is available?

Please, no more lists of his "achievements"...

Brendan, as you so clearly point out in your own words, "If only Moyes had played the expansive football (that he didn't have the players to play) we would have won the league.. 3, 5, 7 years ago."

Do you not see that statement as being so fundamentally flawed? How can you do something if you don't have the available option to do so. Your statement is staggering in its stupidity, unless as I hope, it was meant tongue in cheek as otherwise I am completely perplexed by how you explain it.

"Nooooooooo... they've been proven right."
Just exactly how are they proven right? He did not have the money to buy the players and so could not play the more expansive football that we would need for a whole season, instead we played some good football every season when our top players were available. Problem was they got injured and it cost us. That is not Moyes's fault.

Kevin...

Everton.

Moyes is going nowhere.

Graham (#440) — with the current board, we will not be staying where we are: no investment, increasing debt, no new players unless our stars are sold and unknowns gambled on. That's the road to nowhere.

You don't consider Chelsea, United or City to have had extraordinary success due to their new owners? Even RS under G&H were successful despite FSW nearly bankrupting them.

Michael, first how do you define a 'thumping' is it more than an 'embarassment' or not? I tend to judge 'thumpings' by the performance rather than the score line. The quality of the opposition must also be taken into consideration.

I'd consider the first game of this season a good beating for Man Utd even though it was only 1 - 0. It wasn't Moyes's fault that a whole host of chances were missed or hit the bar and De Gea was on fire. That scoreline could've been anything yet the MotD fans will come out and say 'just another classic 1 - 0 for Moyes'.

To appease the goal-obsessed mob then I'll give it a go (sorry for any inaccuracies, these are off the top of my head): The obvious 7 - 1 against Sunderland; home leg against Brann; the Watson hattrick in the 4-0 against Leeds, 2004-05; 4-0 v Palace, I seem to remember beating Villa 4-1 at home too (2006?); Liverpool at home 3-0; Luton 4-0 in the cup (seeing as we're considering lower league teams); that season also contained a 3-0 away win at Watford if my memory serves, and putting 4 past Fulham at home. I remember beating Wigan 4-0 with some Fellaini goals at Goodison not that long ago, Sigma Olomouc also discarded with 4 goals, as were AEK Athens and Hull (home and away) that season by 4 goals each, and then of course the usual whipping boys Sunderland and Fulham both dispatched as recently as last season by 4 goals to 0 each.

I'm sure a cursory check at the Everton results will show up any inaccuracies there, equally it may show up yet more big score lines to answer the questions of what scorelines was I thinking of. Surely you didn't think that we actually hadn't thumped anybody in 10 years?

I just don't see the point of your challenge, how do you define a thumping Michael? Above 4? If that is the case then I struggle to think of too many games that sides from lower leagues have beaten us by more than 4. I'm sure by looking through the results that we'll have dished out more beatings by 4 plus goals than we've taken in the Moyes years making my general point correct.

For what it's worth, I remember a lot of these games and some good scorelines have covered up some bad performances. Equally I remember some fantastic performances that were rewarded only with a 2 or 3 goal reward. It seems stupid to get hung up on scorelines and use them (in this case erroneously) as a stick to beat Moyes with. Bit like those who bang on about not winning away at 4 certain clubs that are no longer the top 4 but City and Spurs don't count blah blah blah. A complete disregard of the broader picture just to get some cheap shots off at the manager.

In response to an earlier poster, I know damn well this Premier League is not the same as the old Division 1, so don't patronize me. I also know that, in the recent 10 years, hundreds of homegrown youngster have come through the ranks to nail down first team places. Those youngsters did not spring from nowhere — they must have been identified then developed at some club other than Everton.

It is a sad reflection on Moyes and his hand-picked coaching panel that the only player they can lay claim to as one of their own is Victor.

Three important groups of facts should be taken into account when passing judgement on a manager. The first group includes his length and security of tenure plus salary. The second group includes identification and development of homegrown talent plus the first team's entertainment value, its style of play. The third must be his winning/losing/negative mentality.

Any analysis of those facts shows he is not all he is cracked up to be. A few good displays do not blind me to the previous 10 years of dross for which this man must be held responsible.

John Ford, we might have had £10M "net spend" available in most of the summers if Moyes didn't take it personally when players either requested transfers, or got offers from other clubs. If ever I saw hypocrisy, it is in this thread where the MOB has been accused of only having two sticks with which to beat Moyes (two's plenty by the way) and then read someone say "net spend" (fuck I hate that term) several times in the same paragraph.

Someone asked the question earlier: which of our players would walk into MU, MC, or Chelsea? Well, without being biased, and based on form, I'd say, Fellaini, Baines (who comes with Pienaar), Gibson (now that he's had a run, I think SAF might realise what he's lost, considering his current central midfield has a collective 80 years on this earth), and to an extent Mirallas and Distin could probably be seen as bit part players at a big club with how they've been playing this season. And, let's not forget Heitinga WILL probably go to a big club.

The problem with this money argument is that players are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them, and if there's an extremely good centre half playing for a Championship club, and nobody knows who he is because he was injured the last time they were in the EPL, and only one manager of a club with limited resources offers them £5M for him, that does not mean that he isn't as good as a centre half that cost the biggest team in the world £30M – anyone know which two players I'm alluding to here?

Mirallas cost us, what, £5M? Put him up against players who cost anywhere between £5M and £15M, and I'm sure you'll find that he is worth more than that.

What I'm getting at is, through Moyes's good work as a scout and businessman, we have a team worth far more than what we paid for it, and with far better players than some people want to admit.

James, nothing sinister... I was just curious to know what you were thinking of when you used the term 'thumpings'. That's all.

I couldn't relate too well to the idea you seemed to be projecting as I didn't recall too many games we had dominated to the extent that term might suggest over the long years of the Moyes Era. And I think your vacillation between saying "it's not the scoreline" — then giving me a load of scorelines — kinda gives it away.

On that note, years before Moyes's arrival, I started tracking what I called the Big Wins, which I defined not as 'thumpings' but simply as games in which Everton scored 5 or more goals. The dearth of such games after Moyes arrived needs no further comment.

I'm more inclined to agree with Wayne's original characterization than your attempted dismissal. I think he was spot on about the shit football we've suffered for most of Moyes's reign. But I know you're happy with the excuses for it; in fact, your posts seem to always excuse and justify whatever happens under Moyes, as if he can do no wrong. I'm sure you understand that becomes a catalyst for anyone who sees things a little differently.

ps: Ian (#793) — "He's not an ex-player, he's not from the parish, he will never be their man." Isn't that what they call 'ad hominem'? Very poor form from you, methinks. Personally, such considerations had never entered my thinking, I assure you.

We have played some back to basics football under Moyes as he's built the squad over the years...but to get it in perspective, it is far better than was served up under Kendall II and III, Mike Walker, Walter Smith and even Joe Royle. I loved Joe as Everton manager but the stuff the team played was downright ugly at times, notwithstanding Kanchelskis, Barmby and Speed.

Eric, I have no truck with our current board , liars and swindlers to a man however I don't necessarily see the Doomsday scenario you seem to expect given the ability of Moyes to assemble 'competitive' sides on a shoestring.

As for your examples of extraordinary success in the last five years Man City have a net spend of £392m , Chelsea have a net spend of £190m, Man U only £34m but one of the biggest sporting brands on the planet (and the figure includes the revenue from the Ronaldo) sale. This does not include a similarly huge amount spent on wages.

The only way to win consistently in the PL is to spend obscene amounts of money. We cannot compete because it is not a level playing field. There is no magic answer or formula to overcome this other than an owner prepared to invest a large amount of money for no return.

That's a bitter pill for any of us to swallow and those of us who say it are accused of not setting our sights high enough, apologists etc. To some extent I understand it, I have watched Everton win the league on three occasions and it is galling to accept it is unlikely I will ever see another one, but hope always springs eternal.

I love these long threads - they begin in considered debate and end in amazingly brave libel such as " I have no truck with our current board , liars and swindlers to a man."

Graham, you're counting on Moyes to always pull rabbits out of hats, if he's still with us next year, but remember we were almost relegated under his watch too, and have been in the bottom 3 at Christmas a few seasons. That happening again is just as likely as us finishing in the top 8 that you consider to be a success.

The team needs investment just to stand still, no investment means we are going backwards, that's what this current board offer.

Roman, the key point as I see it with Net spend - you may not like the term but it's total correlation with success is undeniable, is that teams gain success because they are able to to spend without the need to sell. These teams have a Net spend because they are able to buy when they need to - they don't rely on income from player sales to fund purchases.

It makes no sense to continuously sell your best players. As a primary means to creating spending power it is counter productive, its very risky, its also unrealistic to keep expecting a manager to buy small and sell big, which is why the successful teams just don't do it. They don't need to. Yes players move on (how good was the Rodwell business?) its unavoidable (Arteta, Lescott) and it's good business to make a profit on them, but it's completely unrealistic to expect any manager to build a team on this basis. It offers no stability. It doesn't happen In the premier league, not if you want to be successful.

Michael 844 - If he was an ex player or from the parish he would be seen in a more positive light, that is just fact. I am not necessarily saying you see him as an outsider (some will), rather if he was an insider, most would give him more credit for their man (swap Moyes name for a Peter Reid for instance).

Joe royle went back to basics, pulled us from the bottom, won the cup and gave the red shite some beatings along the way (who were managed themselves by a joke). Fans eulogise about his short reign. Was it great football, what young kids did he bring through, where did he finish in the league, how good was his transfer dealings considering he spent a shit load. Moyes has one problem, he's not won a trophy. Winning games is what's all about, no one worries about the youth system or the style of play with 3 points in the bank and a piece of silverware in the cabinet. Football is a results based business, with Moyes being the nearly man resourced on scraps.

Just a couple of points that may be worth considering in this thread, I apologise if they have been covered in an earlier post but,well, I can't be arsed reading EVERY post above....I've got a match to go to.
Chelsea have spent £70m in compensation payments to sacked managers in the time Moyes has been in charge. This is more than Moyes nett spend in his time at Everton. And this in a time when money is of increasing importance in football. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly wrong.
The days when players wanted to play for a club because they had or felt an affinity for that club or because they genuinly wanted to win things are almost gone.The mercenary element in footballers has never been more evident. Remember Robinho who thought he'd signed for Chelsea instead of City. And Benteke thought Villa played in London. Do you suppose those two were blinded by the £ signs waiving in front of them? Or am I being cynical.... Van Persie signed for Utd not just for more money, he had apparently been offered more at City, but because he felt he'd win more at Old Trafford. (I suppose it's easy when you're 29 and a multi-millionaire) But Moyes has a good track record in bringing players in and keeping them when they could conceivably pick up more money elsewhere. For every Lescott and Rooney there's a Jagielka and Baines. Several players have come out and said that the team spirit is exceptional at Everton and we are regarded as a well respected club. I am I the only person who thinks that some of that is down to Moyes? Who wants Moyes? Apart from us ,who probably NEED Moyes, I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of offers from other clubs.

Eric,

More lazy argument. You think we are as likely to be in a relegation battle as finish in the top 8.
In the 10 full seasons Moyes has been in charge we have flirted with relegation once and finished in the Top 8 on 8 occasions which will undoubtedly be 9 by the end of this season. I sort of think that shows how ridiculous you statement is.
By the way I have never said success is Top 8, but to consistently achieve it is no mean feat. Success this year would be Top 4 or the FA Cup.
Any investment would inevitably help our cause but we won't be getting it from this shower. What David Moyes has shown is that you can still be competitive with limited funds but ultimately it's only with the big money are you going to win trophies on a consistent basis.

Moyes is a top manager. To keep Everton in the top half on a small budget has been fantastic... remember the Walter Smith years anyone?

The money Moyes spent to improve the squad by adding Mirallas (pace) and Gibson (good all-round midfielder) came from selling Bily. All Moyes's transfers recently have been generated from player sales.

Moyes has always been in a position to do this, but has always seemed very, very reluctant to do so (he admitted as much). Personally I see it as part of his core duties to generate funds in this way. I'd far rather he turnover the squad than pressure BK into taking on further debts.

The team that is now playing Barca-like football at times, is virtually the same squad that Moyes has had for the last 5 years, so we see they can play good football when there is a proper balance to the side and the manager doesn't have a yellow streak, talking about knives and gunfights and avoiding relegation on the first day. He's now even playing two up top!

Moyes has proved a lot of people wrong by allowing this team to play good football. For years it was about money (for him and his fans). In fact it's more about giving the players a chance by putting out a balanced squad with a good mix of pace and creativity and organising them well and getting them to work hard.

That said, having seen that he is capable of sending out a side to win and play good football on the deck, I do hope Moyes stays. I'm not sure we could do a lot better.

Graham, and how many seasons have we struggled in the first half and been staring at relegation only for a turn around in the second?

How many rabbits do you think Moyes has left? What if he's not with us next season? Do you think the new manager's rabbits will be as good?

What we need is investment, not rabbits, but you keep believing in miracles and that this board is doing a good job and will see us right.

Eric are you actually reading my posts? Where do I say I think the board are doing a good job? Read the first line of my post #851.

You tell me other than 2003-04 when it went down to the wire, when we have seriously 'been staring at relegation'. There's no good reason to expect that to happen in the near future given the quality of the current squad.

To take the next step, ie consistently challenge to win things, we need money – and we ain't getting that from this current shower. I think Moyes will go sooner rather than later and what that brings no-one knows. We might strike lucky and find someone who can win trophies with no resources or we could end up in shit street.

I know what my gut is telling me.

Moyes, in his last interview after the Chelsea game was asked about the last 12 months points total being regarded as successful, he said, "the best is yet to come to come", the guy is staying and knows something we don't.

John Ford and James Martin, I couldn't agree more, well said.

So we are led to believe the generalisation of the dearth of shite football suffered under Moyes is an accurate statement and yet the lack of thumpings of the opposition is accepted as accurate.
We really need to rationalize the grading of the Manger's excellent tenure since 2002 with more respect and in depth analysis when concluding a final decision without the final solution.

Graham, on the one hand you are saying investment will help us but on the other you say lack of investment will not hinder us as we have a good enough team and Moyes.

But the problem is all the other clubs around us are investing and improving their teams while we are not. Just look at the league table, who are we competing with? Stoke, Swansea, WBA who have all invested.

Investment is needed just to stand still, no investment means we fall behind those teams around us. Just because Moyes has performed miracles so far with no budget is no guarantee that he will continue to do so. Read the disclaimer on your shares portfolio, 'past performance is no guarantee of future success' and to gamble on it being so in football is the road to failure.

I cannot agree, Eric. Thanks to Mr Moyes and the scouts, we have definitely improved. Of course it would be nice to win a trophy but staying in the Premier League must always remain the top priority. However, I am fully on your side with regard to investment; without it, we will eventually struggle.

Gone are the days of Catterick, Kendall and Royle when much of the opposition were quite pathetic.

Happy New Year!

As I am perpetually baffled by all of you who seemingly despise him so much (?!) - please let me know just who you want to replace him?

And try and keep your candidates in the real world - even if you're not.