Kenwright will have said to him 'Look we know how little money you had at Wigan, but we're going to see how good you really are.......we're going to give you a REAL challenge....'

You're right though, if they weren't going to invest in Moyes, they're not going to break the bank for Martinez. Hopefully he'll figure high in the 'Best Pound for Pound Manager" next season if nothing else.

Bill to Roberto - "And remember, like we agreed, buy low, sell high, you know the drill. I'm back off down to London...."

Some of my red shite mates still go on about how Rafa only had a net spend of about 2m a year, yet we know he still spent a fucking fortune on shite.

For instance, if the new manager comes in and sells Barklay for 200m quid, and Billy bullshit gives him 100m to spend in the transfer window, his net spend would be minus100m pound. Although he still has the opportunity to purchase 100m pound worth of players, good or bad.

It would be more accurate to show the net spend in two seperate figures.
1- how much was made available for tranfers from the club's income
2- how much of the cash raised from player sales was given back to the manager.

More like, Moyes walked "due" to an offer from Manchester united.

It's not as if the money received from sales doesn't exist!

Moyes left because he got the job he's always coveted.

Together with your creative accounting, this whole piece seems to be a very poor attempt at making a point which is merely stating the bleeding obvious : Everton haven't got a lot of money! To be successful any new manager will have to wheel & deal, develop talent, sell on for a profit, etc - all the things one would expect of a good manager, really. Even if we had the money, why would anybody want a manager who requires a bottomless war-chest to fund his success?

Wish I occupied the real world.

A few years back, here in the unreal world, many of us believed Destination Kirkby was an ill-conceived crock of shite, while realists like Richard told us it was a great idea, it was going to be wonderful and it had to happen.

Also back then, in the unreal world, we (unrealistically!) regularly pointed out that BK was a shifty, not-to-be-trusted fuckwit, whereas for Richard the realist, BK was doing a fine job and was a lovely trustworthy chap.

In the unreal world, Moyes was seen as a decent manager who got stale at Everton. In the real world he 'worked miracles' and is still regarded in much the same way ancient Egyptians regarded Ra the Sun God.

Yep, keepin' it real

Once again on TW, MANY submit essays dealing with ANY subject crossing their path (just not the matter in hand)

Criticise Moyes and Kenwright as much as you like
THEY proved themselves FAR more worthy of the title of EVERTONIAN by result, effort and YES by failure too

Will BK and the board back Roberto Martinez ?

IDK

But when EVERTON appoint a manager that will answer ONE section of the interesting subject posed by Clive Rogers

I wouldn't be so harsh on Eugene. He is one of our more articulate correspondents and TW would be much the poorer without him. And Doddy is well used to having far worse things said to him than you see above! Stay on TW - you'll be the loser if you 'swerve' it.

To further your case you added - "Southall talks shite" and "if you look into his eyes,he doesn't even care - He says things out of devillment!"

Yet you have a problem with my 'tone' to Richard Dodd.

Nothing further to add, I just want that out there.

"In the unreal world, Moyes was seen as a decent manager who got stale at Everton."

Would you care to elaborate at which point in time he got stale? Everton league finishes for the last five years: 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th. Unless of course, you are suggesting that a manager unable to finish in the top four despite not having a pot to piss in is considered 'stale'. And is it also worth questioning your classification of 'decent manager', when in reality he was voted 'best' manager by his peers 3 times during his time with Everton? Again, unless of course you are one of these people that suggest Mcleish, O' Neil, Redknapp etc are 'great' managers as they won a cup, and those who do not win an odd trophy can only ever be 'decent'.

When I was told the next morning that I couldn't say anything about a Legend, I thought I'd add a bit of perspective about his "previous", ie, the Leeds game.

And I still think that he's deliberately throwing cats among pigeons, by the way, but that's yesterday... We move on.

Now while I can accept that they do not put their own money in although I think they missed several opportunities to significantly increase the value of their shares by a lack of investment at opportune times such as the 4th place finish and the "Leroy Fer" saga, what I cant accept nor understand is the poor marketing effort by the club.

You would think with "Luvvie" Bill, "Hard Rock" Earle and "Top Shop" Greene we would be up there with the best commercial deals around.

However our marketing , Merchandising and Commercial income is woeful at a time when the Premiership is awash with money and opportunity.

It will be very interesting to see if the extra TV money of 20 million plus will be given to the new manager or used to pay off the "sins of the fathers".

Whatever happens I remain convinced that Kenwright is the worst chairman in the history of our club.

He has created divisions within the supporters, created a dictatorship which closes ranks whenever questions are raised and has no plans laid down for the future of the club.

Whether Martinez can be the protective shield that was once Moyes or whether he will bring about the fall of the empire remains to be seen.

No more or less valid than Richard's opinion that Moyes was 'a miracle worker' or your opinion - whatever that may be.

You don't like or agree with my opinion?

No problem.

However as you ask, I believe Moyes started to get stale about 3/4 years ago.

My 'evidence'?

Simply the same evidence I would apply to anyone, in ANY situation, if they could not really advance.

Doesn't (as you appear to think) mean 'stale = shite", it just means stale.

A pattern you can't break, same old same old.

NOT saying that was his fault - I am aware that he worked for an arsehole.

But as I posted many times, I think he needed to go as much for himself as for us (or me).

Funny though, you want me to justify stale but seem to have no problem with him being described as a 'miracle worker'

If you (or anyone else) think that's what he was, you must be fucking joking.

A league cup, an FA cup and a two or three 4ths maybe, but 5th 8th 7th etc blah - hardly water into wine is it.

When did Moyes go stale? for me it was the Spurs game mid week in 2006(?) and the Hibbert sub fiasco.

Any way he's gone now and Martinez is the man so it's all moot. We will get to see how Moyes goes with cash and how Martinez goes with a decent squad.

All this member of the Old mob wanted was to let them off the lead a little, it as supposed to be the best squad since, well since the last best squad. Let them play, stop playing not to lose.

In Martinez we trust...for now... until proved otherwise.

Move on, it's what passes for summer, go away, have a break, don't even worry about the window, let your man look at the whole squad and decide who's in or out and if he brings in the odd player well ok.

Next season is a whole new deal...I can't wait, but don't obsess...well not too much, or no more than usual-ish

There are only 2 Roma's. the one in Muirhead Ave and the other on in Italy

My point was, that there was no evidence that our side was getting stale at all. And I don't really accept this 'seeing him in dugout' as a yardstick. You look at any manager in the dugout and its not often you seem them looking comfortable and laughing and joking. They all have this look of frustration, some of them even if they are winning two or three nil. I thought last season was good, and could have been great with a half decent striker turning some of those draws into wins. I don't see what was stale about it.

But you are right, it is a question of how you want to look at it. One man's stale, is another man's consistent. Applying your logic, Phil Taylor could be considered as stale due to the fact he keeps winning darts titles! Same old same old...

Chris, what's wrong with wheat beers? Love some Erdinger or Paulaner when I can afford it. For me, I find the hangovers easier to deal with as I'm getting older. Carlsberg, Heniken and the other mainstream lagers leaving me on fire with a hangover.

Btw Dan, just how long do you give him at Man Utd?

And to be honest, I am not particularly interested in what Moyes does at United. I would have much preferred to see him backed with cash and have lifted a trophy with us.

But lets come onto your crystal ball Derek. Now that the stale, uber defensive inflexible one-trick pony has gone, what will we achieve in the next five years with a manager who clearly has no fear, and attacks the shit out of any team he plays?

For all we know we might have another Mike Walker.

Ludicrous. Of course our ex manager got backing. If he didn't we wouldn't be where we are now would we?

This shows our situation, don't it. Ged rid of our best player, and replace him with who? £24M, in my opinion, is a low price for one of the best players in the league. Whether you think we're better off investing that money than keeping one player is fine, debatable, but fine. But 'Ged-rid'? And yet you'd moan of players being disloyal?

Personally, I'd rather keep our best player. I don't see us getting anyone as good as him for less than £15-17M, and then that is a risk that he won't settle.

Of course it may be a moot point, if Felli wants to go, he's gone. But I wouldn't rejoice, or see it as a lottery win.

As for managers raiding their old club to buy great players (even apparently Wigan only had shit players and had a fighting chance to stay up because of RM and RM only) I just say look at Joe Allen. I'd rather we went abroad and avoided the "he's British" tax.

For me if we can keep him, we definitly should.

Buying a load of Wigan players who weren't good enough to keep their team in the division? Why?

Where's the sense in any of that?

Obviously they have conceded a shit-load more goals, so we only have to make sure the defence doesn't suddenly turn to cement, to keep up our G.D. & therefore League position respectable.

Is it all over yet? Everton have said that they are still considering candidates.

Surely if it was Martinez we would know by now. I accept that yesterday wouldn't have been good as Mourinho was hogging headlines as usual. But would have expected that terms over a new contract could have been sorted today.

Thought it was all over yesterday, but maybe Whelan has got the wrong end of the stick or has been prank called! The fat bird has not started singing yet!

Link to article:

http://rr.sapo.pt/bolabranca_detalhe.aspx?fid=46&did=109897

I understand how you would reach that conclusion, as you live in a black-and-white world where the notion of grey doesn't exist.

Goodies and baddies, us vs them, agree or disagree etc.

The fact is I have more or less ignored the manager threads. I stated earlier on my choice would have been Pereira but I could give no good reason – just a feeling. I also stated that I think a big part of any success/failure for the new manager will be down to luck.

So Martinez? Well... firstly I'm not in a panic over anything that went on at Wigan. Managers who have been relegated have later been successful, just as managers who have had success have later failed.

So, as with Moyes, I haven't and won't be giving it "I like/dislike him/his football" until he has had what I consider sufficient time in the position.

In Moyes's case, that was about seven years. (I know, I just jump straight in there, don't I?)

As for "Why can`t we all rejoice in being Evertonians for once?"

Bluekipper, that-a-way [points to keys].

Mr Kenwright now has a rare opportunity to make a fantastic return on his investment. (Remember his wealthy fellow directors, non-Evertonian to man, expect a fantastic return because they are rich and only a fantastic return is worth their bother.)

Next Season, 3 of the the top 4 have new managers, we have a new manager too. RM has beaten all of the top four. The top four will cannibalise each other and RM will take points off them, he'll play positive "Everton"-style play and not lose those vital points – as was the case last season through caution. We will finish in the top 2.We will then be bought for a huge amount, Mr Kenwright will have delivered a good owner and at last made his own real fortune.

For this to happen, the Board must use ALL of the extra TV money to enable RM to succeed. Finally, we Evertonians must fully support RM provided he plays the Everton Way.

1) He clearly doesn't want to be at Everton if there is the nearest whiff of a slightly better deal elsewhere. Do we really want a player who is unsettled? Do we really want the lescott/arteta shit again where the players go on their own terms leaving little time to get a replacement?

2) He's on 75k / week. Now, I've seen a lot of fans here bitching that the club has no money and there is a good reason why. Its because we're in the business of paying ludicrous salaries like that to an (admittedly quite good) defensive midfielder. For 75k / week I want a striker who can score 20 / season, every season not a defensive mid who are far easier to come by.

3) Fellaini is an expensive luxury; a ferrari engine in a fiat chassis. When we've got shit centre mids to play alongside him, an ageing backline, a dodgy keeper and forwards who can't score, I can think of far more useful ways to spend £30M and £3.5M in wages than keeping Fellaini here.

If you don't believe me look at the improvements in the squad when we sold Rooney, Lescott and (to a lesser extent) Arteta. In each case the squad got a real boost when that money was spent. Hungry, talented players can be brought in from cheaper leagues, like Mirallas in the £5M bracket who is far superior to what we currently have.

I also don't understand all the criticism of BK(or the other directors) about them not putting his own cash in. I'm happy to accuse them of not keeping commercial revenues up with our peers, but as directors they're not obliged or expected to use their own cash to allow the club to spend more than it brings in.

BTW I'm completely in agreement with Eugene. In my opinion Moyes got stale because of his expectation that he could keep spending more of the clubs money than was prudent in an attempt to compete with the top 4.

When the club ran out of cash to give him, he didn't have a plan B. He was generally unwilling to sell to buy and did not give sufficient opportunities to develop the younger players, which were really the only two avenues open to him to improve the squad further.

As long as one isn't treating one's views and TW history as just a little more significant than it reallty is.

In the end Eugene - the real joy is when we talk crap with sincerity and then admit it. Then we have fun.

Well, I can't speak for my sub conscious (well I...don't think I can) so will simply say that one man's over the top rant is another man's forcefully expressed opinion (I've only ever been accused of ranting by those who disagree - coincidence?)

I see Moyes as an honest individual and a decent manager, but for me to have described him as excellent, he would have had to have won us a trophy and shown less (or no) fear in big games.

Plus, if I was going to describe him as excellent it would have been for his achievements at Everton, definitely not for Utd.

As good a manager as Fergie was, I reckon most managers with Utd's wealth will/should be there or there about.

If you can outspend 90% of your opponents by tens of millions, just how 'excellent' are you?

Colin (574) my cousin in Madrid IS schizophrenic.

He's Juan...and the same person.

COME ON!!

E.g. Using the infamous net spend logic, the 35m spend by 'the neighbours' on a certain player now at West Ham, was not actually wasted because..........it doesn't count as the manager got it in through selling a certain Spaniard. I just don't understand why many people cannot see how silly that line of thinking is. Cash spent is still cash spent.

Fact is Moyes SPENT somewhere between 120m to 130m on gross transfer fees during his time at EFC (lets ignore the wages for now). People also conveniently forget that he broke our transfer record three years on the trot up to the 15m spent on the hair.

Now I will listen to people saying that 120-130m transfer spend over a decade isn't that much in premiership standards, and I would actually tend to agree with them. But please stop with the bullshit of Moyes 'not having any money' because he had a net spend of a few magic beans and some grains of rice. You cannot 'creatively account' 120m pounds away!

I don't believe that's the case at all.

Don't think I (ever) called him a twat or a shit-house or a cun...well you get my drift.

What I WAS derogatory about was the ludicrous situation we were put in

That he was, to ALL intents and purposes, the Manager of Manchester Utd, yet in charge of Everton.

And I have not changed my opinion of this one bit.

I believe the choice should have been, either everyone keeps their gobs shut until after the final whistle of the last game, THEN make the announcement, OR make the announcement and he goes.

I still feel the whole thing was pathetic, was all on Utd's terms and made us look like a bunch of mugs.

To be honest, each time I heard the word 'class' I wanted to puke.

"Everton showed a lot of class, Moyes showed a lot of class, Everton supporters showed..."

I just thought 'fucking wonderful, shame you can't put class in a trophy cabinet'.

To be honest, I was surprised (genuinely) Moyes went through with it all, I honestly thought he'd have said (once it became known) 'I'm out of here'.

Maybe it's age, I'm 54 and Moyes is something like manager number 10 for me, for others he's their first.

What a fucking strange thought.

Feel free to personally attack me (or others) to deflect away from your straw man arguments at any point you see fit. The use of capitals when necessary would also be greatly appreciated so that many of us can understand the actual point of your written meanderings.

In my opinion Martin O'Neil is a proven winner and is a better manger than David Moyes. I don't much care for Harry and believe he can't manage without spending big. I think he has left havoc at quite a few clubs and I'd take Moyes ahead of him any time,

McLeish has gained himself a dour reputation, a bit like Moyes. He has shown himself to be a winner and I would say there isn't much in it between him and Moyes.

I wouldn't want any of them to be our new coach simply because they are of an era that I would like Everton to move on from.;to something fresh and exciting is required which is why I wanted Moyes to go.

Winning a cup doesn't make an excellent manager, nor does eleven years premier safety. O'neil McLeish and Moyes are good managers, Wenger is, in my view , excellent. Clough was great.

Their teams play stylish football, which in turn brings silverware. You will find both go hand in hand.

Ross, I'm not confident on Martinez. I'd be even less confident if 5 of his old players came with him.

It's a debate board about Everton, so debate about Everton. We all have an opinion about so many things, but each other? Come off it - as reasoned adults everyone is entitled to their opinion, but attacking each other is really pointless.

Arguing with strangers on the Internet is so 2002.

" I still feel the whole thing was pathetic, was all on Utd's terms and made us look like a bunch of mugs."

I agree.

However the he's gone now and works for an arch rival so what I would like us to do by way of recompense is give Utd (and their new manager) another football lesson when we first meet them next season. Wouldn't that be loverly.

I hope our new manager has that sort of beligerent attitude. By the way does anyone know who it is yet?

(I hope it's someone else).

James Marshall (767) - spot on (can't blame me for stalkers)

Dan (707) - Shriek all you want, I don't think Moyes was excellent and..er..that's it.

Gary (739) - Recently I was (by a poster on TW) informed my 'tone' in a post to Richard Dodd was a bit off. This was from someone who had referred to Neville Southall as 'a nobhead' and 'full of shit'. Today I am accused of making 'childish comments' by someone who describes me as being like 'Billy Big Boots'. All of which is rather like being called fatty...by Cyril Smith.

Laurie (782) - "However the he's gone now and works for an arch rival"

Oh Christ don't say THAT, you'll have all the acolytes here weeping and screaming 'HE LIVES!'

Had Moyes sold a player for £30M and then bought badly, that would not count under the net spend mantra. However, if EFC managed to get £30M from commercial activities (fantasy I know) and then had Moyes spent this money badly, this would count and is somehow a lot worse that the first scenario.

There is however no difference – either way the £30M has been wasted.

(Whereas the "net spend" merchants will go on about the first scenario having a net spend of zero – it's just nonsense, you've simply swapped a good player(s) for a shit player(s) and still left the club in a worse state.)