A Sledgehammer to the Solar Plexus

That Leicester game away takes on huge signifance in my opinion. Against a fellow relegation rival, equally it's important he takes something from the following two games Crystal Palace and Newcastle at home before the next international break. It's a crucial month for Dyche.

Usually I go out on a Sunday, if we're not playing, yesterday I just couldn't

Had I not seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed the last 10 minutes

There was a thread a few weeks ago about where we would finish this season. I reckoned it would all be down to how we started. Well what can I say?

Two winnable home games, no points 6 goals shipped. Of course we will lose games but it's the manner in which we lose. Brighton and Spurs we were crap from kick off. Saturday I thought we were good until the last 10 minutes against a very very poor Bournemouth team

Ndaiye looked knackered so in a way I understood the sub. DCL still looked good so leave alone. Gana and Tim had put a real shift in, get Garner on and a.n.other. Coleman was done so even a fresh young Dixon would have done.
These subs should have been on a lot earlier, 15 minutes to go when we were still comfortable at 2 up.

I suppose with hindsight we can all see what happened and even with no subs we should have seen the game out.

Dyche and the players need to have a good look at themselves.

Get ready for another long and nervous season

I must be missing something here but for me they didn't look tired whereas Coleman and Gueye did, Jesus wept!!!!

Astonishingly bad match management which has pushed me over the line now along with Dyches appalling post match press conference, the biggest cop out of personal responsibility I think I have ever seen from a football manager, ever.

FIrstly, there was absolutely no sign that Bournemouth were going to do what they did, so I guess Dyche was just tinkering to use up minutes and protect important players - so off go Ndiaye and DCL. If we'd have held on, nobody would have commented afterwards.

But, certainly at 2-1, there were clear issues. Gana and Iroegbunam were very obviously slowing down, as was McNeil, and were unable to track the fresh legged Bournemouth team as they had previously. Coleman, despite his incredible levels of fitness, could have done with some protection and maybe subbing. But bringing on Dixon at 2-1 would have been a huge gamble on an inexperienced player - imagine if he'd be on the pitch when we collapsed? Fingers would be pointed at him and at Dyche.

The obvious subs were Garner to come on and Armstrong. Sure, Armstrong has very little experience, but he appears to have tons of energy and confidence and tackles well. Garner could have protected Coleman on the right, Armstrong could have come into midfield. Maybe bring on Doucoure too in midfield and, at 2-1, how about another defender in O'Brien since were getting done on crosses?

Dyche probably did nothing much wrong at first, though he was being complacent for sure, but once Bournemouth scored their first, it was obvious action needed to be taken. Quite why he did nothing is beyond me.

Several players have now come out and held their hands up for their part in this shattering collapse. He really needed to do the same. He is the general. He simply can't put all of the blame onto his troops. He needed to own his part in what many will see as the worst day of their Evertonian lives. Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed. He's had plenty of time. I can't see him doing it now

I didn't think I could feel any more miserable until I read several posters reporting Evertonians were confronting each other in the stands. A house divided cannot stand.

It will not be lost on the players that, while they have held their hands up, he has steadfastly refused to do so.

Instead of holding his hands up, palms showing, to a fan base which is never easily fooled, he has put up his fists.

Sigh...

If he chooses his favourites, then we'll lose both of them and then he'll be toast... and he'll have only himself to blame.

It's high time for our club to be brave and finally employ a progressive Gaffer... for once!

A safety-first Manager is no longer fit for purpose — I believe... football has moved on but we as a club haven't.

Not always correct to blame our manager. Having said that, the subs were questionable!

One minor point, I think we only lost 1-0 away to Oxford United in '86 (when Lineker couldn't find his lucky boots and had to resort to a pair which were too small — they later turned up under his dressing room seat).

That meant we had to hammer Southampton at home (which we did) but hope the RS didn't win at Stamford Bridge (which they did). Even supporting the Blues during the glorious mid-80s had gut-wrenching setbacks. That's Everton.

On Saturday I expected us to concede a sloppy goal, Keane was on the pitch. The manner of the collapse was unsurprising, it started when Doucoure came on. We've seen it too many times before. When Michael Keane is in that defence, Everton are as porous as a new sieve. This is his 8th season at Everton and he must never play for the club again. I've never known a player lose his focus so easily. He simply falls apart after any error.

Dyche isn't the man for Everton and he never was. He'll go at some point soon so there's little point waiting. I made my decision about him before he arrived.

He wouldn't get a job anywhere else in the Premier League, so God only knows why the board thought he was the right man for us.

If only the club had the foresight, vision and decision makers to do the right thing.

Realistically it's still one of the biggest jobs in the game.

No we're not buying off the very top shelf because the job comes with some pretty severe problems but, even at a lower salary, we could find someone showing potential in a European league.

Yet we go with managers like Allardyce, Benitez, Dyche. What kind of a search takes place to arrive at those kind of names? It's a long way beyond pathetic.

Relegation form.

Remember... Dyche is a miracle worker!

I agree with you in that it could easily have been 4 or 5 but that was mainly down to Ndiaye and Calvert-Lewin causing problems for Bournemouth all day.

His substitutions weren't questionable, they were criminal.

The thought of going 5 games without a win or a point on the board cannot be acceptable if we want to remain in the Premier League.

If Sean Dyche doesn't learn anything from how he mismanaged the situation on Saturday, he will be the victim of his own errors.

I will give him a walkover on Saturday's blunders but he has most definitely got to learn from that horrendous last 9 minutes against a team that were down and out.

What is absolutely worrying long term is the collapse that took place on the pitch!

Where is Danny O'Neill when you need him!

I know you have supported Dyche when many have attacked his methods, so to see you come out and quite rightly blame him for not taking some responsibility in what happened on Saturday speaks volumes. If fans who have supported him are now being critical its very hard to see how he survives unless he does a lot better in our next 2 fixtures. Seamus came out first and said we as players need to look in the mirror after that game, but Dyche has done what he always does and has tried to absolve himself of any blame and said the players need to learn to play till the last minute. No contrition about his substitutions or lack of substitutions, I think the players did give their all but 3 players in particular had been running on empty even before Ndaiye was replaced. Gana, iroebugnam and Seamus had all put a shift in and wer flagging, yet Dyche and his coaches failed to see what many of us were watching. After the game when asked why he removed Ndaiye he said he was getting slower in his recovery, absolute nonsense. Dyche thought the game was won and thought he would give Doucoure who he had dropped some minutes, then compounded his mistake by taking off DCL. Bournemouth had been under pressure because they couldnt handle Ndaiye and DCL was giving their CBs no time to settle. So taking off your 2 most influential attackers gave Bournemouth the green light to be able to throw men forward.

I know Pickford is a top keeper but if he had only taken a step forward from his line he could have prevented the first and third goal.

The likes of Brighton, Brentford, and Crystal Palace all clubs that couldn't hold a candle to Everton, despite the fact how well they may be run, have all found unknown managers (unknown to me anyway) in the last few years or so and done quite well. By that I mean have been comfortably mid table, without any fear of relegation and in the case of Brighton, reaching Europe.

Kevin Thelwell did a pretty decent job in the summer transfer, now it's time to turn his attention to finding a new manager. Moshiri couldn't a toss about us anymore, so I doubt very much he would move his arse and look for a new manager, but if he had just one ounce of interest in the club he owns, he would be making a phone call to Thelwell and also Colin Chong the acting CEO and advising them to take action.

I don't care what the self apologist Dyche says, though there were players who were flagging but Ndiaye wasn't one of them. The players who were tiring included the two over 35's still on the pitch.

I know it's a big ask supporting EFC but I would just like a decent nights sleep now and again please.

I felt relieved, with our two outstanding new signings and DCL playing so well, that wouldn't be looking forward to another season of worry and misery after all, but felt irritated that Dyche was clearly settling for 2-0 when we could have easily gone on to win by more.

We already knew that despite two campaigns successfully avoiding relegation, Dyche would never be good enough to manage a club above the level of Burnley, but what unfolded on Saturday was the stuff of nightmares.

Adding to the other dismal negative records under Dyche, we haven't won an away match in 2024 are yet to win a match after going a goal down.

Lose at Villa and Leicester and 30 years on we would be in Mike Walker territory and approaching a position when the apparently unsackable Dyche really would have to go.

Most worryingly, more than once during his tenure Moshiri had his ear bent by Kenwright and nearly to turned Moyes, a truly dreadful thought.

The man is a dinosaur manager. Too old school. He is paid to know better than that. He could smell it ? Smell what, the shit about to run down back of his Sergio Tacchini tracky bottoms ??

Can we have a petition and a collection. Pay him off and get Potter

Changing the manager during the season usually results in a David Moyes type appointment, i.e. someone to stabilze the ship.

I call at me mate's jewellers shop on a Monday (he's a Blue) and we discuss the weekend's usual defeat. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see a "Gone Away" sign on his door.

This is going to take a while to get over. I wonder how many of the players went out for a meal and an expensive bottle of wine on Saturday night? I doubt many of us did…

Last season, we also lost our first 3 league games and only managed 1 point from the first 5. Without the deductions, we'd have finished comfortably mid-table. It's looking like we'll probably only have 1 point from the first 5 again this season. (I'm not expecting anything against Villa.)

I'll give Dyche and the players the first 10 games or so before drawing any conclusions. It's been a crap start but we're so early in the season, it doesn't make any sense to make significant decisions at this time. I get that people are pissed but it's only one game and no time for knee-jerk reactions.

The last thing imo we need now is yet another change in manager. We've only just managed to clear out the deadwood from the Frankenstein squad Dyche inherited — Keane excepted. A new guy coming in now would start to try and sign his own players and just distrust the squad again.

Patience. Things will get better, especially once Branthwaite is back and the new guys more settled in. I'm trying to stay positive, thinking of how we ran Bournemouth ragged for the first 80-odd minutes.

It's the manner of Saturday's collapse that's certainly frustrating and more frightening to many of us for the future of this season.

This is especially true when you have got players like Michael Keane in the middle of your defence because his organization skills for a central defender playing at any level are absolute zero in my opinion.

Where was the leadership?

Bad news when that kind of thing happens because it shows much about the management and the actual mentality throughout.

But, if selling a Premier League club with a debt heading north of £750M, albeit with a brand new stadium, is difficult should relegation become a possibility, then selling a possible Championship club with that debt would be near impossible.

I couldn't see how anybody would take the massive risk of owning a club with massive debts and no Premier League Sky money to offset some of the costs. Yes, I know that there is a parachute payment for clubs relegated; that is small beer compared to our debt.

Who would have thought that, when Usmanov & Moshiri bought the club, we would be in such a perilous position financially 6 years later?

Being lucky enough to have been nowhere near Goodison on Saturday, I suppose I can be one of the very few people who hasn't been that badly affected by Saturday's capitulation.

I hope that selling the club quickly before relegation comes back into the equation has got to uppermost in Moshiri's thoughts…

We could easily have had 2 or 3 wins in the first 5 games last season. I always thought, with a bit of luck, we would turn it around last season; this season, we are a laughing stock.

Whether it's the manager per se or the mentality of the players, the manner of that defeat rests squarely on the shoulders of the man at the helm.

We have been dog shit under Dyche, survival or no survival. Get Potter and let's play our way to safety under him and not under Dychloplodus.

Potter is no mug, he knows what a football team looks like , for fuck's sake, sack the disc beard now. Knee-jerk reaction? No, it's not a knee-jerk reaction.

I think I'm going to stop posting. This is making me feel worse. I'll come back when he's gone. You won't miss my drivel but I'll say this: Dyche will deliver a 15-point deduction to this club before the season has barely started.

There will be 1 point on the board after 6 starts and you'll be happy with that? He's the man is he to take us to safety? Not again he won't. Bye for now.

It might catch on in your absence, Mark.

And if you don't come back, we'll always have that to remember you by!

And Pete @34:

We have nobody running the club so it's got to be chaotic.

Is there any chance we can knock this meme on the head? It is literally untrue, but often repeated on these pages.

There are people running the club. They may not be running it quite as we like but, if it was in the chaos you suggest, I can't imagine they would be able to complete transactions in the transfer window, or put on a game in the Old Lady for 38,000+ every other week.

I feel like our fan exhaustion rate is getting shorter and shorter as each season goes on. There's only so many times we can dig these lot out of a hole and a few more matches like that and the connection will break for good

Seamus is also being targeted like Baines was at the end of his career. Christ this club is so dysfunctional I could cry.

We have a 2 times relegation manager, that's stuck in his ways. how on earth would it ever work.

Dyche can truly afford to be a stubborn and arrogant knob. For him, it is win-win. We could all have a little more respect for him if he had come out after the game and shouldered appropriate responsibility. But no. £5m worth of drivel.

The players showed for 80 minutes that they could be competitive and half-decent. Please let a new manager make them competitive and at least three-quarters decent.

When oh when are any of us going to truly enjoy a game and not have our weekend ruined? I am tired of apologising to my 2 sons for absorbing them into the tragedy which is Everton.

I can say this as I didn't see the game on Saturday and so am not carrying the trauma in the same way.

If you had asked Dyche, I reckon before the season started, he would have told you he was worried about these early games. We are vulnerable at the moment. We've lost players to injury and the window, and you just can't bed in the newbies straight away. It takes weeks and weeks.

Indeed it would be negligent to throw them into Goodison when things are so tense. And so, if we're so threadbare, you are reluctant to make many subs.

We can see now the difference between Beto and Dom. We've got Ashley Young and Doucoure on the bench. And we were 2-nil up. He must have thought 'We've got the cushion; hopefully the first string will see us home'.

But the full-backs were dead on their feet and Keane is just not good enough. And the nervousness of the crowd does affect things. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be one of that defence, dog tired on 88 minutes with the crowd suddenly as nervous as hell. And then 6 minutes added time.

And the final excuse, we are changing the way we play. Adjusting to a team that scores more goals. Rather than every game being the Alamo. We will dominate more teams this year, but that then necessitates a change in style. And we are still adjusting.

I'm optimistic, we've got in some cracking players and have shown we can play well. We just need the full squad. I think we all know the difference between Keane and Branthwaite, it probably adds up to about 2 points every game.

He was asked if Branthwaite would be playing in this game? Apparently not. Dyche said he is not quite there yet.

Now being an old cynic, I thought a couple of weeks before the season started Dyche said Branthwaite had a minor groin injury and I thought maybe a deal had been agreed for him to go to Man Utd and they didn't want him to play till the transfer was completed.

But as we know, Everton refused the offers Man Utd made and he stayed at Everton. Yet, even being told weeks ago it was a minor groin strain, he still isn't ready to join in with a friendly.

Dyche hasn't put a timescale on when Branthwaite will be fit to train yet; last week, Branthwaite posted he was hoping to be fit for the next game.

Also no sign of O'Brien although he played in most of the pre-season friendlies and no sign of Lindstrøm. Surely after playing all the friendlies O'Brien must be match-fit?

To me, any manager should be able to keep Everton in the Premier League if they want to finish 15th or around that area, And this has been Dyche's target since he came… and with previous clubs.

We don't need another one like David Moyes — we should be looking, like other clubs, for a younger more ambitious manager and coaches.

Dyche most probably will save us again, but at what cost? He has been given the opportunity with other clubs and failed. We should not let him continue with Everton after another televised game that showed up all his faults. It is amazing that he gets his attackers scoring, and yet the players he boasts about, his defenders fail.

He will never change so this may not be the last disappointment and, if he is kept on, he will be discussed as one of the worst managers they have had, and they have had a few.

The only player I think would have played if not injured is Branthwaite.

Personally, as bamboozled as I am about the Bournemouth result, I still maintain that Dyche needs to be given more time, in fact, I think we should really only judge when we have Tarkowski back to full fitness, Branthwaite in the team, and we have a settled right back. The early form of the new recruits is very encouraging so far, despite the poor results.

I do think words need to be had with Pickford, and I don't think it would do any harm to put Begovic in for the Villa game and give Jordan a game rest after his England duties?
He was most definitely at fault for at least one, possibly two goals due to his failure to take charge of his 6-yard box.

I say this, but much will depend upon Dyche's capacity to restore confidence, unity and determination in the camp before the next game; I believe he will, even though getting any joy at Villa will be a big ask.

Finally, your title and the “sledgehamthe mer” mertaphor, Lyndon; for me, it was more like an ice pick in goolies when that third goal went in.

All written in the stars, such is our way at Everton. After Saturday, I truly believe we are cursed.

Experience is very important, but when the manager prizes it above ability, form and slotting players into their best position, then it makes him look stubborn and illogical. Also, Dyche really let himself down in the post-match conference by not accepting responsibility as the leader in the dressing room.

The newer players like Iroegbunam, Ndiaye and O'Brien look more confident, capable and adaptable, and the Academy players Dixon and Armstrong are definitely ready for the matchday squad. Lindstrom may take a bit longer, and Mangala can soon be integrated into the squad.

If Dyche persists in relying on ‘out of form' players (Gana, Tarkowski, McNeil, Mykolenko), players out of position (Young at right back, McNeil (again) at No.10) or players who are simply not good enough (Keane, Harrison) then he will lose credibility rapidly.

Ultimately, it may be his caution that finishes him off. That would be a pity as he has earned the right to manage us this season.

He did his best to make up for the shower in front of him by making a few point-blank saves, but eventually if you leave people unmarked that many times, there's fuck-all you can do. And by the way, I thought Keane had a decent game so I don't agree with the easy-targeters getting on his back.

One thing I can't get out of my head is where did Mykolenko go for their second goal? Now I like him as a player, and we don't have another option apart from Young at left-back (god help us), but I stupidly re-watched the "highlights" when I got home and I can't figure out where he is when they score their second goal.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but we seem to have Keane at left-back, McNeil jogging back from left-midfield, and Gana just inside him. Did I miss something (quite possible because I had my head in my hands)? Was he injured? Did he stop for a pint on the way back?

Please someone put me out of my misery…

As good as the first 87 minutes were, we simply can't ignore the final 9 minutes.

When the score went to 2-1, then he should have made the changes in midfield and defence, he did nothing.

At 2-2, he again did nothing. Sorry but that was simply not acceptable at any level. To me he doesn't look bothered. He looks like a man who knows he won't be here next season.

I have lauded Pickford for some fantastic performances, and still think he is a top goalkeeper, but he has a fatal flaw, insofar as he does not come out for crosses, as we saw the other day. It seems to me that this may be "coached into him" with reliance upon our centre-backs and others — notably Calvert-Lewin — providing the defence?

I myself still panic when the opposition gets corners or are in good crossing positions, as you just know he won't come out like Big Nev and dominate his 6-yard box, thus putting pressure on his defenders.

Personally, I don't think the occasional "wake-up call" does Pickford any harm. I remember he missed the game at Man City a few seasons ago and stand-in keeper (Olsen) had a blinder, only for Pickford to return with greater focus, maybe having reflected more upon his own game… I don't know?

Yes, he got his nose well and truly rubbed in it. Depending on Everton's Finch Farm bottling players in such circumstances has been a no-no, right through most of the examples you have given, Lyndon.

It was unbearable on Saturday, and I admire Lyndon's optimism, it makes me fell better reading it.We played well at Villa on one visit recently, so perhaps we can bounce back and restore some credibility as a football team.

On balance, I would prefer bringing in another manager sooner rather than later if this Dyche dross continues. Unfortunately in the modern football model, players, managers, agents etc are all winners, regardless of performance.

How much did our manager and players really want to win last Saturday? Winning is a mentality and they just didn't want it badly enough, but hopefully they don't like looking like chumps either (which they all are at the moment).

I can't imagine that any of them read ToffeeWeb comments, but some leadership on the pitch might be a good idea.

Dyche said Branthwaite had a minor groin injury.

Without going into search mode, I would suggest that what Dyche said was more along the lines of "Branthwaite had a minor operation for a groin injury" [emphasis added] — which I think might be a little more accurate, and might explain his continuing absence as he recovers. But then, if you thought it was all some elaborate lie anyway…

Also, no sign of O'Brien … and no sign of Lindstrøm.

Did you perhaps decide to ignore the subs bench, where there was a big sign of both players amongst Dyche's criminally unused subs?

1986 at Wembley was bad. Tranmere in the cup. 5-0 at Tottenham. Maybe age is playing tricks, but I can't remember a worse one than Saturday.

I remember that, though I recall I saw more of Andy Rankin in goal when I first started attending games. David Lawson was another keeper hopeless on dealing with high balls.

I really don't want to unduly criticise Pickford, who has been a stellar player in recent seasons, but I just don't feel this aspect of his game has improved enough? I have it in my mind that international football places much less emphasis on high crosses, and so he does not get exposed in the same way as a he does in Premier League games.

One final observation: two of the three Bournemouth scorers were, I recall, linked with moves to Everton before signing for The Cherries.

Sinisterra was formerly a Leeds player, whilst Semenyo chose to join Southampton before moving along the South Coast. Both would be assets, but sadly, we just can't attract these sorts of players to the club right now.

We like to think it's just us but it's not.

Man Utd and Liverpool, two of the biggest out there, have both been embarrassed on the biggest stage by Barca and Real Madrid respectively in Champions League finals. The difference is they regroup and win stuff domestically or at least challenge.

We simply cannot create a winning team — no matter what — and fans won't have it. I've lost track of friends and relatives who have walked away — and who can blame them? Results like this are not uncommon; jaw-dropping capitulations are what "Everton that" is all about.

Oodles of money is the only answer; this idea of steady growth is a fantasy, the patience is not there. Evertonians need to see a trophy, a winning team on an open-top bus or the exodus of the faithful will continue.

A new owner won't put up with the continued demise of Everton and Dyche's contribution to it.

Tranmere was one of my most sickening, it was up there with the games I have mentioned already. (I couldn't believe the gate a few days later for a midweek home league game against Middlesbrough — the unbelievably loyal Evertonians really amaze me at times.)

But the one I have felt the most in my adult life was when we had Liverpool on the ropes at Wembley and Phil Neville later told us that they had been discussing how Liverpool would throw the kitchen sink at us in the second half.

I remember we were beating Newcastle 2-0, with the clock on 90 minutes in a night match at Goodison a few years ago but even the great pragmatic Carlo Ancelloti had to settle for a draw that night.

I think Kevin @58 makes a lot of very sensible points but a lot of people have already made up their minds and want Dyche out of our club.

I had forgotten the agony of the Wigan one, but for me it seems that the last cut is always the deepest. I don't think I could take anything worse this season.

From what Dyche said in his post-match interview he didn't recognise he'd made a blunder, he just simply blamed the players for not keeping shape etc.

I've yet to hear Dyche accept that he made a cock up as he blames players, refs, assist refs, the cat that ran across the pitch! — anything but he'll never "recognise" his blunders. Too big an ego.

I never met Brendan, but I spoke to him yesterday and although he was disappointed and blamed it on the silly substitutions that Sean Dyche made, Andy, he sounded just like you whenever you have been to Goodison Park! I suggested you should make another pilgrimage together before the Old Lady shuts forever leaving us only memories of a place I now believe is cursed.

I say it's cursed but I still believe that it's full of Evertonian spirits and, knowing how much passion both the living and the dead have always had for Everton Football Club, I'm thinking of holding a seance (just fuck off, Kenwright!) to see if we can win the cup!

You may well be right that Branthwaite's operation was a wee bit more than a minor groin injury.

As for me forgetting O'Brien and Lindstrøm were on the bench, no I didn't, but we all know sometimes we have named 2 goalkeepers to make up the numbers on the bench. So seeing as we have brought both to the club he could hardly not have them on the bench.

But Dyche did say about their lack of Premier League experience then it seemed he wasn't going to use them. Dyche goes on about how important that fitness is and much store is put on his Gaffer Days training, yet so far in our 3 league games the opposition have finished the game stronger than we have.

So it's either he doesn't recognise when players are flagging, as Michael Ball said in his Echo column today, or his fitness regime is sadly lacking compared to the rest of the Premier League, and so far we haven't played any of last season's top 4.

I can recall the derby at Anfield when they equalised. The lad next me uttered "We've lost this." Chris Lawler finished us off.

For fuck's sake, Shrewsbury who were in League Two that season, and finished that season being relegated to the Conference League, or Nationwide League or whatever it was called at the time.

We could've won the league that year.

Saturday, obviously. The 6-0 mauling by Chelsea last season. derbies (various), the 86 cup final, was hard to take although the semi-final comes close.

The one that sticks out however is the 5-0 drubbing at Goodison. Two other less obvious ones are when we scored first (Ferguson) and went onto lose 4-1 to Sheffield Wednesday in the mid-90s. The various humiliations against Arsenal, and being thumped 6-2 by Villa way back.

I'm sure if I did my research, I could go on. Equally, I could remember some of the victories, but I'd be mostly reminiscing about the '80s, as there hasn't been a lot since!!

Carlisle (H), 1975, effectively lost any hope of winning the Championship, was a killer.

Clive Thomas, 1977, the shit decisions at Wembley when we should have had penalties v the RS in 1986.

Wimbledon *A), 1987.

Even being 2-0 up at Spurs and Arsenal a few times in the League in '80s and '90s, we lost.

Wembley curse 89, 90 v Palace in the Sinod Cup.
Grimsby (H) 1985, Port Vale (A) 96

Tranmere (H), Wigan (H)… There's so many.

But it's the hope of success, the craic and banter and stench of Goodison Park, that creates the eternal vision of hope.

One day soon...

Yep, Carlisle at home, when if I remember rightly, we were 2-0 up and lost 3-2.

However, I will always remember the away defeat 3-0, because it was my birthday that day. Another kick in the bollocks!

In the modern game, with 5 substitutes, good in-game management has taken on even more importance and at last I am now convinced Dyche is no longer the man to take us forward. In fact, he looks defeated himself which may have come as a result of so many flirts with relegation over the past few years with us and previously with Burnley.

I believe he is burned out and doesn't have the energy to complete another season. Even Klopp, who spent most of his time with top class players at the top of the league (how that hurts) said he no longer had the energy to continue; Pep has also said the same during his almighty career.

So IMO, irrespective of Saturday's catastrophe, I believe we should make a change over the break.

We all remember the impact Moyes had when he came to the club as a fresh up-and-coming manager and that is what we need imo.

Another fresh up-and-coming manager — not Moyes… although he would steady the ship until we get into the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Despite his lack of ‘experience', I'm sure he'd maybe have won a few headers — and may even have deterred Bournemouth from opting to cross the ball in the first place.

We were 2-0 up at home to Sheffield Utd later in the same season and we lost 3-2.

As a group of supporters, does our collective Elephantile memory serve any real purpose?

I have noticed fans of other clubs, particularly those across the park, on the all too rare occasions when it happens, they shrug off defeats as a bump in the road, in fact they don't even recognise that they have lost, they deflect and deny it as if it never happened.

Meanwhile, we harp on about games that we have lost from as far back as we can remember, or even if we are too young to remember those defeats they remain a part of our collective psyche.

I utterly dislike the term it's 'Everton that' because it's another term for 'losers'; as a group of supporters we must somehow rid ourselves of the loser mentality, and obviously in current circumstances that is a very difficult thing to do.

I just hope that, when we do arrive at the new stadium, all of the unnecessary baggage that we now carry, is left behind at Goodison and that a fresh start, with a fresh attitude from everybody connected to the club, can take its place.

Blame Lyndon! 😀😀

His teams have never had a positive goal difference in the opening 10 league fixtures, and the best wins total is 4.

And 6 times his sides have lost at least 5 of the opening 10 games.

That's a pattern if ever there was one, will he be able to improve things in the last 28 games if he remains in charge?

At 85 mins, the sun was shining, people in the stands by me were all smiling, saying this is the best we have played for years. We were being entertained, Ndiaye was playing like a cross between Duncan Mckenzie and Alex Young. It was thrilling, enjoyable. A future was being mapped before our eyes. We got sucked in. We needed this.

10 minutes later, we were stunned, people either frothing at the mouth, arguing with each other, or unable to speak, their jaws had dropped so far.

There've been plenty of games that have hurt more. But I struggle to remember any others that happened from nothing, so quickly, so devastatingly.

Utimately it's the hope that kills you.

It was glorious at times on Saturday; the fans were singing in the sunshine, the players were popping it around with purpose before the calamitous and inexplicable last 10 minutes. I initially felt it was the players' fault before fellow ToffeeWebbers pointed out that some players were 'on their feet'. They should have been replaced. That is on Dyche, no question.

All of that being said, we simply won't make any significant progress until Moshiri is gone. Of course we will win here and there, we might climb to 16th, we might get through another round or two of the Carabao Cup but be out before the tinsel has decked the trees. Then we'll draw Man City away in the Third Round of the FA Cup and another year of mediocrity will have passed.

My hope and my dream is for the right owner to step up to the plate and transform this magnificent club and steer us into a football renaissance in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Apologies to Fred Quick for bringing up the past, oh sorry I just remembered Fulham knocking us out of the cup in 1946 or 47, never saw the game but remembered the result.

Also Leyton Orient knocking us out of the FA Cup while I was working hard at school on a Wednesday afternoon in 1951.

And the game we needed a draw, in the same season, to keep us in the 1st Division and we lost 6-0 to Sheffield Wednesday.

I'll stop there Fred, for now!

We might be if Iroegbunam, Gana, McNeil and Coleman had been pulled for fresh legs when obviously dying on their feet. So for me it's at Dyche's door. There was enough on the bench to change it and see the game out. He just didn't smell it in time and, for that reason, the end for him is surely nigh.

You can imagine that, such is the all-encompassing emphasis on fitness and maintaining effort and application levels throughout the match, I wonder if some players are more or less reluctant to admit they are struggling in-game, and would do their utmost to show they are not done yet, for fear off Dyche's wrath and perhaps other repercussions?

But the monitors they wear these days should surely be calibrated to show the coaches and physios when a player is flagging or starting to struggle, even if it isn't obvious to staff (and fans!) watching.

I couldn't make myself angry with Dyche over the substitutions he made on Saturday because they were expected and understandable for the way the game had gone.

But what he cannot be forgiven for is the earlier substitutions pointed out by many that he failed to make where fresh legs were needed a lot earlier, which is unfortunately so typical of him.

When we got the points deductions last season, did the Premier League also give us a subs deduction? Because I doubt, and I could be wrong here, that Dyche has never made more than 3 in his Everton tenure.

2-0 up and cruising on 87 mins and losing is nothing short of criminal in my opinion. That is one defeat I'll find hard to digest and it'll take me a long time to get over it.

As an 11-year-old kid, the semi-final defeat to Liverpool hurt like fuck, and obviously the two cup finals, the Moyes semi and countless other games down the years did, but that disgrace on Saturday… well, to me, yes, it's only a league game, but I've got a horrible feeling that will knock the shite out of our players' confidence.

I haven't had a wink of sleep for two nights because I keep running them last 9 minutes in my head, and I'm still fucking amazed how we haven't got 3 points on the board.

The Spurs result I was half expecting… that on Saturday — no, sorry, it was truly abysmal and for me all down to one man.

In the interview afterwards, he had the look of someone who has made a blunder. But he was blaming the players and doing all he could to deflect blame from himself.

He was in a place where he could not be confident in leading the team. He felt he could not depend on the team to pull him out when he had made a blunder.

He was left alone with the blame. A lot of Everton managers have found themselves in that position, but not as spectacularly as Dyche just had.

I don't think Pickford stood a chance. The defensive line was two deep and not challenging. Pickford would have had to go against the defensive structure, which was a risk.

Why should he be exempt from being dropped to the bench?

Virginia has been patient and deserves the opportunity to stake his claim.

Totally agree: Pickford was at fault for goals 2 & 3 at Spurs (lost ball to Son & didn't take or punch the ball in the 6-yard box) and he could have done much better for all 3 Bournemouth goals on Saturday.

He's not a top class keeper: he's found his level at Everton and, for every world class save he makes for us, he also shits the bed if he detects physical contact: he never comes for crosses and it's a problem.

Yes, none of the defenders or midfielders did anything nearly as shockingly bad as him for all three of their goals, and all other goalkeepers are routinely plucking every single cross into their box out of the air.

Do we have any psychologists who can give us the correct terminology for why people will forever go after their own particular ‘whipping boy' at every opportunity?

It's interesting that MK speculated about players being reluctant to ‘show weakness' by admitting they might need to come off due to fatigue because I wondered that myself.

I innately hated being subbed and suspect some of our lot are the same. I was relatively blessed with stamina and generally saw out most games but I do recall a couple of times of running off a cliff in relation to fatigue. It can come on really quickly and not gradually as you might generally expect.

One of the biggest consumers of sugar is the brain, so concentration and cognition will also plummet if your blood sugar nose-dives because you've used up your quickly accessible reserves. You know when a muscle has gone or if you are cramping, but I'm not sure players will always recognise they are headed for, or have already reached, an energy precipice.

That's why it's got to be the manager's job, not individual players, to decide on tactical substitutions.

In every other sport, cranking up the number of subs allowed led to it becoming standard for coaches to factor in those ‘extra legs' in finishing out games. It looked on Saturday as if such foresight wasn't in Sean Dyche's make-up.

He therefore needs the likes of last season's defence to protect him from the likes of the many chances Bournemouth created in the final 10 disastrous minutes.

That said, his saves are on a par with any of our 'keeper greats, from decades ago. I know because I was there to see them all since Albert Dunlop, albeit as a kid.

Dyche made a bollocks of the game courtesy of his choices in the last 10 minutes. His "I could smell it" statement was derisory.

He needs to buck up, and I have been in his camp because of the shit-show he took on when he unwittingly (according to him, on public record) initially took the job (just like Carlo soon said of course).

If you have everlasting faith in our owner/(s?) and deceased chairman, you might just believe that our problems are entirely down to opulently contracted, wealthy so-called professional employees who will leave us in a blink when the enormity of the owner's malfeasance eventually takes toll.

Any next manager appointed by whoever's in charge will have all the same corrosive issues to deal with before he even looks at those £millionaire players daily parading at Finch Farm.

It's fucking grim... as ever… for decades.

To take off two of your best players with a few minutes to go would normally have been okay if the replacements assisted in shutting down space or covering tired players in the gaps left. It didn't happen, balls were played wide, not shut down, not even challenged for free headers etc.

Coleman should have been replaced with Dixon when the first goal went in. Mykolenko should have hammered that cross out — he missed it completely.

The next two followed a similar pattern, full-backs clearly targeted, the two centre-halves non-existent. I'm not surprised in the least with that, it's been Keane's failing for years.

Tarkowski couldn't lead in a dance... he has been very poor this season, which brings me on to the final point:

The preseason games were devoid of shape, tactics or strategy. It was carried through to the first two Premier League games, dreadful. Dyche deserved a bollicking for that alone, but since the season started, he has had a go at players, fans, officials… but not once has he contemplated what so many see, that blame is his as well, if not more so.

It was the best we have seen from an Everton team for a long time, a joy to watch, ruined by the failure to implement a strategy to close up shop when he knew players were tiring.

Christine, yes, Dixon could have been brought on to counter the threat of their winger.

Don, we seem to have an obsession with height. I think Jordan tips the scales at just over 6 ft. Moving outfield, our Leon Osman and Pienaar where about 5ft-7in. Paul Scholes was 5ft 6in. All great players, regardless of size.

Like all players, Jordan will make mistakes. That's football. Yes, we'd like to see him more commanding in the box, but he has contributed to keeping us up in recent seasons with some outstanding saves.

Not just Dyche by the way, but he is the worst offender, not only late, but all of us watching, either in the ground or from afar. We can all see a change is needed, sometimes before half-time even, where the opposition are bossing the game and certain players just can't cope.

When subs are eventually made, the usual question being "Why is he taking X off, the only one who was being effective, and replacing him or the wrong ones with Y?"

If we can see it, why can't he? Especially when we can do nothing about it, apart from voice it in the ground, or shout at the telly, when he can and doesn't? Is he out of his depth and managing by the seat of his pants?

Those conflabs he has with Dick and Dom on the sidelines indicate that none of them seem to spot where the problem is, and take far too long to come up with an answer of some sort.

That's on Dyche and his failure to acknowledge that is poor.

The two subs were Dixon and Garner for me but I do actually believe that, if we had made no subs at all, we would have won that game.

What Bournemouth exposed was a lack of pace by the defence on the wings and a too deep defensive line. The lack of pace was a result of the intensity of Everton's play throughout most of the game and Seamus after injury having only played part of the previous game.

With Keane in the backline, Everton were always going to go deep. He prefers play in front of him. If Mina had've been in the backline, he would have encouraged the defenders to push up to compress the area in front of the penalty area line. Dyche did not address any of these issues.

What he did do was substitute like for like in the attack, with instructions to continue attacking as those substituted. Neither player was capable of holding the ball or keeping the team shape.

This bolstered the two Bournemouth substitutions and the instructions they had been given on the 77th minute, exploiting loss of possession for a midfield too far forward, a defence that was deep and the space undefended by knackered defenders. not fit for the pace of the Bournemouth substitutes.

If the defensive line had not been as deep, Pickford would have been out for the crosses. Everton has never been coached at Finch Farm for blood and guts situations for years.

After the first goal, did anyone see a furious player berating his colleagues? Competing is not on the agenda at Finch Farm... Stay with the structure and tactics, failing or not.

Dyche made a total balls of it and he knew he did within seconds. What he smelt was his own worst fears.

At my age and everything I've seen over the years, that last 9 minutes has done me.

I remember thinking we were done when Bobby Collins was sold, that was bad. Then Young… and then Ball. Never mind all the horrendous games we've lost over the years… where to start?

For some reason Saturday's game has affected me more than anything. Maybe it's the fact that we've somehow survived the last few seasons and we have to survive this season to go to the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock still in the Premier League. I don't know

Brighton and Bournemouth should really have put us on 6 points. 3 games in and no points. 10 goals against… Nghtmare!

So Bournemouth score in the 88th minute and are right back in the game, sensing blood because we've taken off two forwards, and our two best players on the day, and replaced with almost like for like.

Some of our players are on their knees, giving Bournemouth the impetus to go for the equaliser, all because they had fresh legs on the pitch — not very good fresh legs, mind, but fresh legs who could run. Jordan Pickford is screaming to the bench to make more changes, to no avail, because he can see some of his teammates wilting.

Then the board goes up… 6 minutes of added time.

Remember the Brian Clough saying: ”It only takes a second to score a goal”. Well, we gifted Bournemouth two more seconds, to gift them the game. And 6 minutes is a bloody long time in football when you're grimly hanging on to a one-goal lead.

So we then go and gift Bournemouth a second goal and you'd think “Well, forget about winning, hang onto the point we've got.“ I always say, if you can't win a game, then make sure you don't lose it.

So what does Dyche do, Sweet Fuck-All. He still had three substitutions available, all defenders, who would have been able to see the game out and get that first point.

If he could smell something was wrong, then when that second goal went in, his face must have been covered in whatever he could smell, because he clearly couldn't see what was happening.

It's not the first time we've thrown away a two-goal lead in added time, remember Newcastle a few years back, while we've done it ourselves, against Man Utd, losing 3-1 going into added time when Cahill and Arteta scored.

Like John #115, I still can't quite believe we lost, and I'm waking up in the night in cold sweats, the game running through my mind. It will take a few days to lift myself off the floor after the weekend!

Anyone with half a brain should be able to understand that. We need stability, boring stability, not a 'new guy/same as the old guy' routine. Are we not bored of that one yet? Have we not realised it doesn't work in these circumstances?

I'm not a Dyche defender, I'm an Everton supporter. Those ranting on to the tune of 'Get Dyche gone' need to think harder about what that won't achieve.

It won't solve the ownership issue, it won't transform the playing squad, it won't pay off the debts, it won't finance the new stadium, and it won't dissipate the air of negativity around the club for longer than 5 minutes. That will only be achieved when Moshiri goes and we get new owners. Hopefully the right ones.

To those asking why Dyche hasn't taken any responsibility regarding his performance on Saturday, how do you know he hasn't? Managers never take responsibility straight after the game. They haven't had time to analyse it and they're too caught up in the moment.

Did Ten Hag take responsibility after the Liverpool game on Sunday? No. He bleated some nonsense about working hard to improve things.

It's a media interview, for fuck's sake! They're contracted to say something, however anodyne. What happens behind the scenes is what's important, not what Dyche says to the media.

Dyche's record is pretty shit but he kept us up last season and that is the simple goal this season. We're three games in, plenty of time to turn it around.

If we're rooted to the bottom after 10 games, it's a different issue. He's got 2 weeks to rally the players and do some introspective thinking about his own performance. He doesn't need to tell the media or the fans about that, it's between him, the players and the rest of the management team.

Personally, I have no interest in what Dyche says to the media, it's not important compared to what happens on the pitch. Some of the posters here (who are not representative of the fanbase and seem to live in a ToffeeWeb twilight world) might want to do their own thinking before they head to the keyboard to let off steam, usually underscored by the light bulb brilliance of 'get Potter in'. Very inspiring.

Dyche has his work cut out for the next 2 weeks. The ice just got a little bit thinner. But as an Everton supporter, I want him to succeed. Not because I like him, but because we need stability, not another turn on the managerial merry-go-round.

He went on to suggest that he thinks there has been a noticeable change from Dyche in his post-match interviews. I said to a mate the other day that Dyche has in some interviews of late attacked fans for leaving early and said there was a hero-to-zero mentality at the club. He said he thought Maupay had been treated unfairly and the club knew that, — what he means by that, I have no idea.

Then, after the game on Saturday, he blamed the loss on the players switching off and not playing to the final whistle.
Seamus came out and said the players need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror. A completely different take from the manager who took no responsibility for the defeat.

I think maybe Dyche knows that a new owner will probably mean a new manager, and if he is thinking along those lines, then that would be very worrying.

Bournemouth made their changes and, all of a sudden, started knocking it around, keeping hold of it and making dangerous runs. We sat back and when you watch every single time we got possession we gave it away.

A throw-in would end up back to Pickford for a hoof up to a sole Calvert-Lewin and it would come back. Keane twice had the ball at his feet to take some pressure off and booted it to nobody. Iroegbunam gave the ball away every time for about 10 minutes with sloppy passes; Tarkowski booted it to nobody.

Bringing Doucoure and Beto on only meant that nothing would stick, we had no threat and Bournemouth could come at us, and they did which much more force and fluidity than we ever could.

My point is it wasn't after the first goal. The set-up of this side is to play this percentage football, especially when the opposition has the ascendency. There's no plan for anyone to calm the play, it's hoof and it comes back, therefore what we seen on Saturday will happen again unless we change the manager, who was like a rabbit in the headlights.

Not one player had the thought to keep the ball and take the sting out the game… Why? Because they don't train or plan for that, they don't know or train patterns of play therefore giving away any possession to a 50/50 long ball is the best option sadly. It's crazy how much we give up possession.

We can take positives in the way we played going forward, we have players who are actually capable of holding possession of the football under pressure. Tim & Ndiaye stole the show.

Surely now Dyche can see the benefits of being more attacking against teams we shouldn't fear?

Why the defence was so tired is baffling. They had barely anything to defend for 85 minutes. Is it a consequence of Dyche working them too hard preseason? It seems a theme to the start of a Dyche season.

Branthwaite will help, as will Garner, Mangala & Broja.
It's the lack of options and cover in defence that is our worry yet again this season.

It's completely baffling, they should be fresh at the start of the season. Dyche teams always start slowly for some bizarre reason, looking unfit. Tim was blowing and he's a young lad; what chance have Gana and Seamus got?

But they stayed on the pitch.

Brian Harrison @118

So to top it all we'll probably have a manager in a sulk because he hasn't been offered a new contract.

Get him out and get Moyes on a shortish contract if possible… at least until some other options become apparent.

No thanks.

I get all the narrative around never going back and the quality of football etc. I just think that he is a safer option at this moment in time than Dyche is and there doesn't seem to be too many options out there. Corberan could be a shout but a gamble.

I will live with boring football providing we stay in the Premier League, that is essential. As Michael Ball says in the Echo, something has changed with Dyche.

You are right: I am being unadventurous and settling with less than ideal… but such are the stakes at this moment in time.

I think Thelwell has done a good job so, if Moyes did return, then it would/should be positioned as such at the start of his tenure.

The shortest possible contract for Moyes would be none at all.
After 11 years of failure here, why on earth would anyone want him back?

He's as big a dinosaur as Dyche and Fat Sam.

He comes across as someone who is miffed he has not been offered a new longer contract. I also reckon the trouble with Patterson — the slap on the head — has caused a rift between him and some of the players. As he would say, you can smell it.

A caller on the radio the other night suggested he and Thelwell no longer get on and the Dyche did not want O'Brien but the Hull centre-back who ended up at Ipswich.

A note about Tim Iroegbynam — in the past two seasons, he has only played 90 minutes 12 times. The majority of his appearances have been a lot less than 90 minutes. He played in 52 matches at all levels, so that's less than 25%, and now he's been asked to play 90 minutes in the Premier League. Quite a step up.

Also, he's played 90 minutes in all 3 Premier League games so far and 85 minutes against Doncaster.

Living in Florida, USA, I set my alarm to go off in time to watch the game at 10 am against Bournemouth. Alarm went off; I snoozed it.

26 minutes later,I decided to watch the game due to our recent performances in the Premier League. What I saw was football played in a way that defies Dyche's way of playing — unless he's adapting, finally changing his style now that he has players to individually unlock difficult defences. 

lliman Ndiaye was a beast on the field. He was a menace to their defence. He alone I feel was the catalyst, the inspiration for all to follow. Every time Ndiaye was on the ball, you can hear the crowd raise the level of noise in anticipation of what he can produce.

Then, the ill-fated substitutions. When Ndiaye was subbed out, I then saw the Dyche way of playing, which I was expecting from the outset. Then, 3 goals conceded; I was not in the least surprised. 

In my opinion, Dyche has a talented squad, if only he can manage them right. I think Ndiaye plays counter to what Dyche wants, hence his removal. Others could have been subbed out to give support for Ndiaye.

We have another exciting player here we're yet to enjoy. Based on what Ndiaye has done on the pitch so far. I would like to see him and the player in question, Orel Mangala, on the field at the same time: forward-thinking, front-foot football. 

Most goals scored, wins games. Seeing Mangala's YouTube displays only adds to what Ndiaye offers in terms of terrorizing defences. I for one want to watch what I saw before Ndiaye's removal.

Dyche has made claims of players young or new to the club not being Premier League ready. I for one would like to say "You're not Premier League ready!"

Dyche's style of football is: Plan A — Don't let the opponent score; Plan B — Should the opponent score, don't make them score again. That's how interpret his style of football.

Onana has openly expressed the style of football he's now playing at Aston Villa will help make him a better player, and he has 2 goals already. Dyche either changes his rubbish way of playing or just simply goes.

Who do we get? I don't know. Just like I didn't know Brighton's manager with no Premier League experience goes to Goodison Park and lines up 2 forwards away from home. When has Dyche ever started an away game in the Premier League with 2 strikers? 

Brighton are unbeaten in 3 games against top 6 opponents and us. Dyche would play 1 striker against a non-league opponent in an attempt to try and perfect his system.

I believed he was the right man at the time from the options with the looming relegation and timeframe. He's steadied the ship, along with Thelwell removed the overpaid non-contributing players that were crippling the club; he's done what was expected of him.

No one thought he'd have us challenging for Europe or titles. So we should be actively seeking his replacement, the right man, be it next week, next month, Xmas, or the end of the season, the club needs to be looking for that coach young progessive forward thinking who will take us on.

Iraola's tactics showed on the weekend that Dyche is not the man long term. Find the man who is!!

I seemed to remember Pickford stood behind the goal line for the equaliser.

Worse still, replacing our two main threats with two players with the worst first-time touch in the squad. Beto cannot control a ball from 5 yards never mind 75! Doucoure cannot run with a ball... cannot run back to cover or tackle.

So yes, it suddenly gives no outlet in the air or to feet that is similar to what he took off. The result is the ball comes straight back.

Final point regarding Dyche's media comments. Of course they make a difference! Blaming everyone else in public is attempting to deflect justified criticism of his own performance. It's called throwing players under a bus!

Choices have consequences, keep getting them wrong and blaming others will ensure condemnation at some point. 0 points, 10 goals conceded in 3 games is not a blip.

It was Steve Bruce who got one over on the great Carlo Ancelotti that night, although I'm not sure if Carlo got any stick for that capitulation?

The manager and the players did not have a different their take on why we lost the game. They all said it was because the players took their foot off the gas. That is a fact that you and everyone else will simply have accept.. Unless you think the players were lying in order to make themselves look even bigger twats.

Of course our players were tired it's a league that demands maximum effort, It happens an every game, every week. Winners go through the pain. They ignore tiredness and drive over the line. We didnt win because our players thought they could coast to victory.

People have a choice here. they can continue to to be driven by confirmation bias, or they can take the word of those involved.

Listen to them. There clearly was more petrol in their tanks, They just thought they could get away with saving some of it for next time.

it wasnt tiredness that did for us in the end. It was blind panic.

Dyche did differ from the players in his boorish attitude, but they were of the same opinion as to why we lost. Accept that and you will see many legitimate reasons or going after Dyche. Fuck knows he's offering you enough at the moment.

I'm not pleading Dyche's case for him. Not anymore. I just hate the idea of seasoned professionals being absolved of doing a collective impression of corporal Jones as soon as Bournemouth threw caution to the wind.

DONT PANIC !!!!

But if the manager could smell it, he definitely needs to start trusting his sense of smell, especially when his eyes are deceiving him!

I think in his comments he is implying that he could sense the players would implode and there's nothing he could do about it. And that any changes would be futile.

It's a dangerous set of comments to make as it separates him from the players.

Imagine a player came out and implied the blame lay with the manager and coaches.

Undoubtedly the players were tired, as were Bournemouth. Their manager chose to put on 5 subs; we didn't counter that and contributed to their impact by removing our two best players on the day and surrendering the centre of the park, putting the defence under sustained assault.

Even then, we created chances that no one converted. Given that both wing-backs failed to cover the full-backs who had no choice but to back off inviting crosses... Meanwhile Tiny Tim and Gana couldn't get back in the centre of the park (knackered) and we were overrun.

Yes, all the players admit to being stuffed but the wrong choices were made immediately after their first goal went in, not to shut down midfield with Garner and O'Brien and replace Coleman with Dixon... none of that happened.

But the catalyst for that defeat was a combination of removing our best players and not countering their subs.

Who knows what was said? Although the only thing that really matters is that everyone learns from it.

I think the manager has got the most to learn and not just necessarily about his players but also about how much the fans care about the club, and how much they appreciate a little bit of honesty with regard to people being prepared to hold up their hand after making a mistake. We will see.

He must go nuts knowing, if the club produced bars of rock, it wouldn't have EVERTON running through it but PARANOID —and in truth without major money there is very little he can do about it.

Nonetheless, things were on the up and his prickliness down to knowing it was all wiped away in 10 mins of weirdness will diminish with a win. But he needs it straightaway — the knives are glistening in the morning sun.

I don't see in Dyche that there is a manager capable of evolving and getting better. His consistently poor and slow starts to every season are evidence of this.

Has he ever even considered that the "Gaffer's Day" he's so proud of is part of his methods in preseason that underpin his poor starts?

These Bournemouth substitutions were not a stroke of tactical genius. They were the last throw of the dice from a man who, by his own admission, thought he was beaten. He had to change — they were getting hammered; Dyche didn't.

I can't help laughing at this outrage over Calvert-Lewin being taken off for Beto — it happens virtually every week. Most of the people I see moaning now are the ones who scream for it to happen… every week!

And it's not unusual for any manager to take off a player on his debut — it was a terrible decision but it didn't make our defenders throw the game away.

Both Iroegbunam and Gueye can be seen pushing on in search of more goals in the latter stages. Seamus drove all the way to their 6-yard box. And while I'll admit there were complaints from me when it was happening, there were no complaints from anybody else either. The crowd loved it. We all got a bit carried away by the prospect of seeing Everton batter somebody.

However. There is a golden rule for midfield players and defenders when pushing for a cricket score. Do not go anywhere you can't get back from. Especially when merely keeping the shape guarantees victory.

These are experienced players for goodness sake — they did not get pulled out of position — they abandoned them. They had the energy to get forward, but lacked the desire to get back.

I have the utmost respect for you, Christine and many others like Brian, but when I read this thread, I feel the hindsight is rampant and confirmation bias is impenetrable.

That, coupled with Dyche's attitude, is the reason I have developed an unshakable feeling that Dyche is finished. I feel he may already have lost the majority of the fanbase.

We saw what happened to the directors who alienated themselves from the fans…

What was missing completely was someone, anyone, of leadership who dragged them into shape and told them to stay where they were... Tarkowski is the obvious choice.

So yes, players are to blame individually but collectively alarm bells were ringing (hence the "smell it" comment). It's not confirmation bias, Dave, it's like chess: they do this, we do that..

And you're right that we have seen Calvert-Lewin swapped several times already this season for Beto, but in this case, he had a good game and we were not chasing a result. In what dimension would Doucoure be a one-for-one replacement?

Ah, what's the point, Dave? The reality is they all should have done better and they all carry the can. Coach and players. (Or are you saying Dyche should not carry any blame? If you are, I would disagree wholeheartedly!)

He talks as if he is one of the fans sitting in the stands, absolutely powerless to do anything about the ‘smell' coming from the pitch.

The only place where subs were not needed was up top. Ndiaye was fatigued… bullshit!!!! He was loving it!

For those who say no one questioned that decision at the time, more bullshit: fans were asking those around them why Ndiaye was being substituted as they were applauding him off — they weren't applauding Dyche's decision.

Surely you must go into any game and think "I have two players on the pitch who are over 35, they will probably tire over the course of 75 minutes" — so have it in your mind that they would probably need replacing, especially in this heat, before the game even starts.

Had he bought on Garner and Dixon for Gana and Coleman in the 75th minute as fresh legs, then this game was in the bag.

If he had left on Ndiaye and Calvert-Lewin, who had been giving their defenders something to worry about all day, then Bournemouth would not have built up the momentum that they did, giving our defenders breathing room as well as providing an obvious outlet.

The only two players who could have won free kicks, taken it into the corners, kept their defenders on the back foot etc, and generally just slowed the whole game down.

The most naive football game management I have ever witnessed and it's made us a laughing stock.

I just rewatched the second half in its entirety, as painful as it was, but it's clear that up to halfway through the half, all was going well. It looked a hot day too — which obviously had an impact on players — especially the older ones, right?

Up to then, we were really good… but errors started to creep in, not getting to the ball first and errors starting to happen.. Fitness on a hot day suffered — never mind all our older ones especially.

In fairness, it was the same with Bournemouth, but they brought 5 pairs of fresh legs on, targetted Coleman and overran the midfield… So why, just why didn't Dyche see the same thing after 70 minutes???

We started to go off the boil due to age, fitness, heat… and5 new players against tiring players. That's why it was down to Dyche — not because they panicked, they ran out of legs without support!

When the manager had at his disposal cover for the defence and midfield, he puts on two attackers when we are 2-nil up in the final 10 minutes! [Rant over...]

And then he throws them under the bus!! He failed to see, adapt, accept any responsibility — and that's why Dyche will be secure until a new owner walks in the door. [Second rant over.]

I should never have watched it again... you were right, Dave, confirmation bias. I can confirm I am now officially biased.

5 fast impact substitutions vs 2 non impact.

Not sure if Dyche has lost the plot during then after.

Clearly the game needed killing.

Clearly three players who were defensive were dead on their feet.

Clearly the opponent's players were fresh and fast.

Clearly Dyche had the opportunity to negate the threat and chose not to.

Clearly his substitutions were ridiculous and a bad decision.

Clearly he has thrown his team under the bus.

The shambles of a club that looked like becoming a steadier entity has taken another wrong turn in this saga of self destruction.

Doucoure was lobbed on so that he didn't have a huffy fit as it really couldn't have been for any tactical reason.

If the players are fuming then he's goosed.

No, I can't absolve Dyche of blame. I likened him to a General blaming his troops on another thread. He should have stood by his players regardless of how he felt. He should have been looking in his own mirror asking what he could or should have done differently.

We are seeing the same things. We're just expressing ourselves differently.

I clearly agree with everything you said there except the bit about Dyche being secure until a new owner walks through the door.

I disagree — the current owners want a stable ship to ease the sale of the club… they thought that was Dyche; it isn't and I think they probably know that now.

I saw a podcast yesterday that did a poll of 1,000 Blues and 61% want him gone now — that's anything but stable and will hamper Moshiri's attempts to sell the club if Dyche stays.

It's in Moshiri's interest to get as much value as he can and, if he thinks that Dyche is threatening that, then for the sake of £5M he will get rid.

I think, if he doesn't win one out of the next two, he's gone.

I disagree that he can't evolve, but that's because I think that “anyone” who has been managing at the bottom end of the table for years, with “fighting for survival” being their number one objective, should be able to progress, once they got some better players in.

Correct

The only option for me in the middle was Garner.

Doucoure has been last all season and most of the previous. His willingness to pick players out of form consistently is just one of the many reasons he has to go.

I shy away from personal attacks especially against Managers who have kept us up in the past but I actually dislike this man now after that press conference.

I guess if you choose to ignore the players' admission that they took their foot off the gas, it would be easy to jump to the conclusion that they had nothing left. A player not giving everything looks remarkably similar to a tired one.

I choose to believe the players' account rather than give credence to a bunch of people who are desperately trying to prove their version of events was the correct one. Those using the benefit of hindsight to refute what the players have told us can deny these facts until they are blue in the ace, but they won't change them.

Let me just reiterate: The Bournemouth manager had been taken to school. He confessed after the game that he thought his team had been beaten when he threw on five subs to stem the flow.

With half a new team on the pitch, it was his team that should have been in disarray. Instead, it was us. We let them in once and blind panic set in.

For me. Those are the real circumstances under which our players folded.

I think Dyche believed the run of 5 wins last season was a show of improvement. Thus he already had this season's side chiseled in. However, I saw it as opposing teams knowing that they had nothing to play for really.

We have new additions and oddly enough the two we have seen properly look decent. Maybe that has upset Dyche's stuck-in-the-mud mentality of playing his favourite first teamers?

He is resistant to change. Look around. The amount of subs. It's a squad game — not a team game. You can field half a fresh side at once. I don't think that computes.

Adaptable managers have realised and use this — young managers certainly do. Gone are the days of 90 minutes.
A match can last 110 minutes easily which is a massive difference — almost an additional 25%.

Players cannot do that kind of time in certain positions. You have speedball multiball. The only break comes from injuries or free-kicks and that time gets added on. 5 subs. That is a game changer.

I think the pressure has gotten to Dyche. The turmoil of the club's off-pitch comedy-drama is a massive concern with no end in sight. The optics and noise Dyche regularly quotes may have misted up and be overflowing right now.

Pickford

Dixon
O'Brien
Tarkowski
Keane
Mykoleno

Garner
Iroegbanum
Gana

Ndiaye
Calvert-Lewin

We need to try something else desperately, I think WB would suit those two full-backs more and play Iliman off Dom.

Won't happen like, it'll be an almost identical team as Saturday with possibly Young shoehorned in somewhere. I can "smell it".

Dyche is history — don't leave it until 10 games in. I know he has done well for us in the past but he's being paid serious money to keep the ball rolling and not live on past ‘glories'. That's the nature of the business.

Oh, I forgot … he's not Premier League ready, is he?

He will be in once he's done the Three Peaks.

I'll be honest and say the only difference was I had McNeil in for Ndiaye, but in my defence, I hadn't seen Ndiaye play before Saturday.

In hindsight, and going forward, Ndiaye should start every game. I think he could well prove to be our best signing in years.

You are right that the players on the park are just as culpable as the manager but, as you point out, some like Seamus have admitted they need to look at their own failings.

But I think what irks many, me included, is that Dyche never admits that he may have got anything wrong, and as we all know, if you keep throwing your players under a bus, then it usually doesn't end well.

He said that the reason he took off Ndaiye was because his recovery was getting slower. I have to admit I didn't see Ndaiye struggling and maybe Dyche and his coaches being closer to the players than I am could well have been right.

But many of us could see that Tim Iroegbunam was really struggling and, being young and not used to the Premier League, that's understandable, yet Dyche and his coaches didn't. I don't think Calvert-Lewin was tiring but he was taken off.

I could be very wrong but I think Dyche thought, with 10 minutes or so to go and coasting at 2-0, he would bring Ndaiye off and let him get the ovation he clearly deserved. Likewise, a bit later, I think he had the same thoughts about Calvert-Lewin.

But taking off our 2 best attackers gave a green light to Bournemouth to throw more men forward as they didn't have to double up marking Ndaiye.

Also, with losing our first 2 games, everybody realized how important this win would have been which is why the anger at this defeat is so galling.

Pickford

Coleman
Tarkowski
Keane
Young

Harrison
Onana (hang on… he plays for the other team now doesn't he?)
Gana
McNeil

Doucoure
Beto

3 points no problem!

I actually think he would be okay playing as one of the three central defenders though because he is already used to playing very narrow for a fullback, and he also looks to be better at defending rather than going forward.

Although I thought he got it all wrong when I was watching the highlights of Bournemouth's first goal on Saturday.

If the players took their foot off the gas, why weren't they subbed? As for the dig re changing the truth to fit a version, go look at the match again.

I think we differ on this. But it still doesn't answer the question why Dyche didn't act midway through the half or at any point to protect the lead. Lack of leadership, both on and off the pitch. End of.

For me, he was as guilty as anybody for the 1st and 3rd Bournemouth goals. The 1st was a low cross that bounced and was no more than 2 yards from our goal line — had Jordan been off his line by a yard, he would have dropped on the cross before it got anywhere near their player.

Again, the 3rd was well inside his 6-yard box when it was headed home. Now in both cases we should have stopped the crosses coming in but sometimes the keeper has to be brave and for me he should have done a lot more than he did.

I admit he made 2 great saves between them scoring the 2nd and 3rd goals, but I just wish he would be more proactive when balls come into his 6-yard box.

I'm wondering how many of those people Dyche has lost because he refused to take any responsibility for Saturday's capitulation?

In answer to your question, I don't know — but I'm one of them.

If you believe the manager, then Ndiaye was not ready for Premier League football versus Spurs.

Yet — just 7 days — later he was ready and was also capable of being the best player on the pitch in a Premier League game.

They snorted at the idea that Everton were in relegation trouble and felt we'd stay up this season without too many problems. This initially surprised me. They based this on improving performances and a better squad, they were worried about what might happen if we sold Dom in January though. That was the fly in the ointment for them.

As for Dyche, we all agreed he was stubborn and awful at subs but that he did a hell of a job last season and deserved time to turn it around this season. Neither of them had seen Dyche's post-match comments or cared about them.

As I said earlier, I'm not inclined to believe a post-match interview is important in the scheme of things. Media appearances are a chore for managers and players alike, they won't be what defines the inner dynamic of a club or a squad of footballers.

If a random stranger interviewed me straight after work, it's highly unlikely I'd tell them what I really thought about anything that went on in my workplace. I'd trot out some platitudes and move on. That's also what Dyche does.

It's a chore, not reality, or throwing them under a bus. Dyche's real relationship with the players is not something we really know much about.

The conversation reminded me that Toffee Web is often not representative of the local fanbase. It's often more negative. That's unfortunate but there's no other way to say it. These two long-suffering Blues took the positives from Saturday, not the negatives.

I was the most negative-minded of the three of us; I was glad to hear their more balanced opinions.

Or Roman when he played, solid performance.

Dyche has got to learn quickly because it's obvious that a lot of people don't really like him anyway, (even though he has definitely had a big hand in keeping us up twice, imo) and I think this has been proven this week, with most people preferring to dwell on the last ten minutes (for obvious reasons) even though I've heard that Everton played football, that a lot of people have said his teams are incapable of, for the first 80 odd minutes on Saturday.

Dyche hasn't helped himself, but more by his actions, rather than any words he chose to say or not speak, and the pressure seems to be really on the manager now.

Sorry but for me the whole thing is bollocks.

The very idea that you only 'take the positives' from a game means one thing to me: you are deliberately ignoring all of what you are calling 'the negatives' and just cherry-picking what you will take away from the event.

As I say, that's bollocks. What you should do is encompass the entirety of what passed before your eyes. Yes, every individual will have a different perception of what transpired and why things happened, or didn't happen.

Also a lot of emphasis on learning lessons but a fundamental problem with that lovely idea is that people just don't really change that easily.

I would contend that you get a better 'balance' by embracing the whole thing, warts un all. Anything less is not reality.

People can put a positive spin on whatever they like if it makes them feel better.

There's nothing positive from 3 defeats in 3 league games though. It isn't possible to have a worse start.

The minutiae of the things that fans believe have contributed to these defeats is largely negative also. That is where maybe balance can be offered. However, there have been very few positives.

Evertonians are not calling for new or different players to be selected for no good reason. It's because they felt the three teams (particularly the first 2) that Dyche fielded would not get a result. And they were right.

Certainly some gallows humour in there too, we were having a chuckle about Dyche and his line about certain players 'not being Premier League ready' — yet he continues to select Michael Keane, but over two or three nice pints, even Everton losing at home after being two up can be put into some perspective.

I can assure you the "dig" was not aimed at you personally, but I can see two very different versions here. One from the players and the alternative one peddled by what looks like the majority on this thread.

Regardless of what you say. The people who were on the pitch are saying something different to you. That is a fact.

I choose to believe them when they say that they let their intensity drop (Tarks) or took their foot of the gas (Seamus). Why on earth would they make themselves look even worse. by lying ?

You ask me why Dyche didnt act ? I can only give an opinion on that; I think he took his foot off the gas too. I believe he also thought the game was already won. Regardless of this tidal wave of hindsight. I don't think there was a single person watching that game who saw this coming when the game went into the 86th minute.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes I agree that a lot of people don't find it easy to change their ideas but it is still a lovely idea.

Dyche is 54/ 55 so it gets harder to change the older you get, maybe if he had an aggressive assistant he might at least listen to their ideas, or maybe they've tried and learned that Sean doesn't listen.

If he looks at the second half of Saturday's match again, he should notice the many mistakes being made came after the change of players and might agree that he could have done better. I would add that not all the mistakes were due to tiredness so he was correct in some aspects in what he said after the game.

We had positives on Saturday, there were negatives, which we've all done to death. In my opinion, one thing I would avoid is publicly having a sly dig at supporters and players. He'll lose both. Maybe it was in the heat of the moment.

I hope he gets to turn the team around, starting at Villa.

I said they preferred to take the positives from the game, they were well aware of the deficiencies in the performance late in the game on Saturday, but they weren't going for Dyche's head or about to jump in the Mersey whilst calling out to be saved by David Moyes on the back of it. :)

Social media often drives a certain type of reaction about any issue, things far more important than Everton and Sean Dyche. It's the nature of the beast, I would imagine you're well aware of that.

When you step outside of it, you often hear different views. It's a limited tool which sometimes drives 'in the moment' negative opinions and divisive reactions about any issue. I think that's become more acknowledged the longer we've all been using it. That's all I'm saying.

I'm worried about Dyche too. I hope the more positive-minded supporters I spoke to last night are right, but he needs to turn it around fairly pronto, no doubts. I'll shut up now. :)

What happened last week usually happens to bad teams and it in itself is a big warning, even after only three games.

Dyche has been limited with the finances but the defensive woes are not just on the back line but the whole team. Ten goals against in three games signifies something is really amiss with the game plan and organization of Dyche and his staff.

The next game has to be a turning point but is unlikely against an outfit like Villa so the Leicester game may be the one that decides the fate of Dyche.

Same manager and staff, the only difference is the team is a little different.

We've only played 3 games, it's too early to panic.

Tony, I've given Keane the occasional praise when it's due, but most of the time, as you know, he worries the shit out of me!

Seeing as Branthwaite isn't ready for Villa, it's O'Brien and Tarkowski for me.

You're not the only one who doesn't rate him.

As I've never seen O'Brien, I can only assume that Dyche thinks Keane's knowledge of playing with Tarkowski gives him the edge? One of those situations where you have to trust the manager's judgement as he sees them in training.

I expect there'll be no change to the centre-back pairing for the Villa game.

Doucoure, Young and Keane should be bench back up at best from here on (until January when they're shipped out).
They're the past.

In 3 games, we have shipped 10 goals so something isn't right at the back.

Are we missing the defensive duties of the ex-scapegoat Onana? Has age caught up with Coleman and Young?

Is Tarkowski carrying a knock. Pickford having a meltdown at Spurs. Branthwaite injured.

Is it a combination of all of the above or is it just Keane?

I have only seen O'Brien v Doncaster and in all honesty he reminded me of Michael Keane!

I don't think it makes much difference who gets picked against Villa, we have a terrible record there. A draw is the best we can expect.

But he's part of a dying breed of tall, rugged centre-backs that even teams like Bournemouth, Fulham and Brentford can beat for speed and fast feet. I've not seen enough of O'Brien to say he's better but Branthwaite certainly is.

I used to watch Spanish football in the '90s and they got rid of the statuesque centre-backs even then for more mobile readers of the game. I guess you could say we had the same with Ratcliffe.

Keane is a good centre-back, but time has passed for him, Young and Doucouré… but I'm just not sure Dyche is up with the modern game.

It's not Keane's fault — he does his best. It's all down to Dyche who sticks with the same old system when the chips are down.

I find it astonishing that people want players hauled off because they believe they are fatigued. Yet they are happy to start with what they are claiming is a centre-back carrying an injury.

We have just paid over £15M for a ready-made center-back who looked solid next to Keane. If the reason Tarkowski's form has fallen off a cliff is that he is playing with a restrictive injury, he would be taking the piss out of everyone associated with the club by not declaring it and getting it fixed.

I think he is a man of integrity and would not jeopardize the future of the club by playing crocked when he doesn't need to.

For me the "injury" is an excuse being rolled out for his desperate start to the season. He's lost without the insurance Branthwaite's pace affords him. He doesn't know whether to stick or twist.

O'Brien and Keane for me until Tarkowski gets his wing man back... or pulls himself together.

Your last post makes sense and some of the points you bring up resonate.

Keane is not a scapegoat, it is just a lot of supporters have concerns with him.

He is a decent footballer. He can pick out a pass and has scored some important goals for us.

But to your point, defensively, his concentration levels and reading of the game are often lacking as he chases a ball that has gone over his head rather than anticipating.

Like you, I don't blame him. He just worries me most of the time.

I can't deny his effort and commitment. I think let's get O'Brien in. Hopefully Branthwaite will be back soon, then the manager has options at centre-back.

If that's the case, no wonder the defence has been all over the place, because both centre-backs naturally cover the right side and therefore are more likely to neglect the left side of the box.

Just a thought. Which foot does O'Neil prefer?

If you mean Danny, you'll have to ask him!

Cheers Rob. It's all Danny's fault, he's all over this site, subliminally entering our heads.

If Michael Keane has genuinely been our best defender, then this is the most worrying thing because, when I talk about collective defending, my mind instantly thinks about defenders being organized and communicating with each other, and this is definitely not something I've ever witnessed in all the years I've watched Michael Keane playing for Everton.

He can't be all bad because he has now played 200 league games for Everton, according to the commentator after Michael scored on Saturday, and he has also represented his country a few times. But just because I said I don't rate him doesn't mean I have tried to make him the scapegoat; this is not something I ever look to do when my team loses a game of football.

O'Brien looked very right-footed against Doncaster.

I think Tarkowski has to be responsible for his own form, which has been very poor this season. We shouldn't project that onto his defensive partner.

No stress. Two boys' game on Saturday morning, then on to Marine. Two boys' games on Sunday morning. No Everton whatsoever.

The afternoon free, just to catch up with a film. “Get Carter” (1971) with Michael Caine. Our anti-hero visits Newcastle racecourse, looking for a villain. In the background, the announcer broadcasts the winner of a race - “Goodison, at 10/1”.

There is no hiding place.

Let's hit the road and, when we get back in 25 minutes, Everton will have held on for that win! Right?! Right?!? Worst case, it ended 2-2 and I wanna barf… but at least we have our first point of the season. Yeah? … ummmmm. Fuckkkkkk!!!!

More long scale: my dad had a stroke 2 days earlier, 1,000 miles away from me, second long-term hospitalization in 2 months, and it's been a huge painful ordeal for the both of us and honestly things keep getting worse.

So, in the unexplainable way that this game can provide solace and distraction and — dare I say it — comfort… this result will never leave me.

This hurt. I have to say that I have supported Sean Dyche all the way but how the fuck did he allow that to happen!???

Garner on for Iroegbunam, who was done for; Lindstrøm for Ndiaye but packed right back with Seamus, and then the Beto sub was fine usually… oh god, I hate it all so much.

Doucouré is quite literally already retired, he can't ever get on the field again. O'Brien looks great, and certainly looks like a Dyche kinda guy (if ya catch my drift) yet he won't use him?!

I'm done, good luck, Earth.

I once had to step in when a female referee got abused by parents walking onto the pitch. I get passionate about football, but there is a threshold.

As Tony says, we can stop worrying about Everton until next week. Even though we will! Enjoy watching the youngsters, Peter.

Yes, Jake O'Brien is definitely predominately right-footed.

There's something very refreshing about watching the very honest nature of kids football, especially when you see that absolute determination that not every player possesses, or that little clever brain that makes you smile and think that little kid is going to be alright.

Enjoy your weekend, Peter, I'm glad my partner moans at me sometimes because I've got to manage my own son's team this morning, and I've just had to ring our manager, to prove her wrong and it's a good job I did — or we would have been turning up at the wrong venue!

I'm just glad I fell in love with the beautiful game all those years ago because football has given me so much of everything over the years.

It seems every man and his dog knew for a fact that we were going to implode. Yeah, right… I've been told Bournemouth were trading at 250/1 on 85 minutes.

I have looked at all the claims and, after watching our midfield players charging forward at every opportunity, I won't even address the claims that they didn't have the energy to get back in to shape.

Regardless of all the claims, Bournemouth's substitutions were not an immediate success. We were still all over them. We switched off and allowed them back in.

It was a shot in the arm for them. The Bournemouth players had been handed a lifeline they had no right to expect and suddenly they were playing like men possessed — even the goal scorers who were on from the start and had every right to be as tired as our boys.

Dyche was then faced with a decision. Did he introduce a rookie right-back and a centre-back who still hasn't played? Or did he trust his vastly experienced back four to see the final few moments?

I wonder how many people using the benefit of hindsight would have thrown an inexperienced kid into that situation? Or broken up a centre-back partnership to put on a replacement who was stone cold and had no time to adjust to the pace?

I'm guessing none.

Kids' football is the beautiful game at a raw level, it's great to see them learn. It can also be thrilling to see them take someone on, run with speed and aggression.

Going back to the title of this thread and its subject matter, I think that's why Everton's capitulation last week was so disappointing. For the first time in years, the crowd was excited by what we were seeing, particularly Ndiaye scrapping, keeping his balance and taking off. It felt like better days were here.

Let's hope we can recapture that first 87 minutes.

Presumably all Dyche has to do next time we're losing 2-0 away is to bring on 5 subs with a few minutes left to completely outwit the opposition manager. Points in the bag?

In reality, I doubt the Bournemouth fans are crediting Iraola with managerial genius — given it was just a throw of a dice in desperation once the game was gone.

I doubt they see it as a grave error by Dyche either. More more a combination of (a) luck and (b) a capitulation by a weak group of players. It's certainly not a good look for the more experienced players on the pitch — and not just the usual scapegoats like Keane.

Unfortunately, there will be many more poor results this season — regardless of who is manager.

Quite a few of our players will be on international duty so, instead of the players being together with the manager going over what happened, they will be with a different group of players, and will probably have a different mindset than had they been at Finch Farm.

So by the time they return to Finch Farm, their minds will be on Villa more than what happened against Bournemouth.

I also think there were many positives last week that we shouldn't forget. I know it was only his first start and we have all seen many players start their Everton career brilliantly only for it to fade just as quick. But I thought Ndiaye's debut was full of everything we haven't seen for a while, a player who can get bums off seats.

I just hope that this wasn't a one-off, and if (as we all hope) it wasn't, then full credit to Kevin Thelwell for getting such a good player from under the noses of other clubs.

Tim Iroegbunam gets better with every game; I think he still tends to tire after about 80 minutes but he is young and hasn't played much Premier League football.

I think Calvert-Lewin also benefitted from Ndiaye often attracting two defenders which gave Dom the space to run into.

I know Keane gets a lot of stick on here but that was a good finish for our first goal. And whether Tarkowski is carrying an injury, I don't know, but he doesn't look like the defender he was last season.

Also, we are really missing Branthwaite for his pace and positioning. Maybe in the not-too-distant future, we can see O'Brien and Branthwaite as a centre-back pairing?

Let's hope it's a turning point for the back 4 and midfield and they get back.to being solid, because we showed there could be a big improvement in the forwards creating more, which is what I said before the season.

A decent upturn in chances taken while keeping the defensive record of last season would see us easily mid-table, but it looks like Dyche is struggling to find that balance.

Can he let the team get forward and play more without losing the solidity of the back line? Or do the players have the discipline to know when the game needs to be closed out?

They won't want to be picking up too many injuries before probably their biggest game in years.

The Everton-free weekend was disturbed once again by a post-match chat at College Road with the Darlington manager, Steve Watson, once of this parish.

Moyes knows the club inside out. And he actually did a lot with very little resources. I would have had him back in any of the previous 3-4 seasons.

He'd get my vote, even if just to create some kind of consistency and stability at such a critical time with the new stadium on the horizon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Moyes

Me too Peter, 100%

I'm not sure what it is about the club as it is at present that Moyes knows inside out. The players? Apart from Coleman, who else?

The owner? Not sure anyone knows Moshiri inside out.

The board? Aren't they all new?

The coaches of the junior sides? Not sure they were in post as coaches when Moyes was here.

One thing though that really does piss me off with Dyche are his post-match comments. Saying that, he could smell defeat when Bournemouth scored their first goal in the 86th minute. Well, being the manager, do something about that smell coz believe me, that smell was shared by most of the crowd... Dyche had 6 minutes before they scored their 2nd goal and he did fuck-all. Absolutely nothing.

His game-changing is simply shit and, for me, that is what will get him the boot... and I can't see it being Moyes.

Good to see you defend Dyche after last week's game. I haven't given up on him but you didn't need hindsight to realise the mistakes he made in taking off the two forwards.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who noticed the whole shape of the team was altered and the rhythm gone as soon as the winger went off, made worse when Dominic followed him off the field.

Bournemouth made hay while the sun shined and we watched with disbelief as the shambles went from bad to worse.

I was in hospital when the defence was destroyed by Watford, discharged from the hospital with the score 2-1. I got home and put the results on TV to discover we had lost 2-5 after the defence had disintegrated before the shattered fans.

Fans blamed Dyche and Benitez for the dreadful losses and they we were both culpable along with some players. I think Benitez was let down in that game and his final game in charge at Norwich more than Dyche was by the players.

Michael Keane played in all three games, by the way, he can't be solely the blame but he is a player who never leads the defence but very often has to be led by other, sometimes younger, players.

He's just an extremely poor defender whose best level is nowhere near good enough for the Premier League.

Defending is about positioning, shape, teamwork, reading the game, intelligence, communication. The best defenders are rarely off their feet, throwing in last-ditch challenges or tackles.

Michael Keane has none of that. More often than not, he resembles shipwrecked man all at sea searching for anything to hang on to. Little awareness of what's going on around him and a complete lack of mobility.

Go back through the 200-odd games he's played and look at the heavy defeats. He's effective in his ineffectiveness. It's a sad state of affairs for both us and him that he still gets a game.

Yes, he can strike a ball, can pick out a long pass, but a top level centre-back he's never been.

And yes the rest of them at the back have been equally or even more shite this season. But at least their best level, if they can get back to it, is at least acceptable for the top flight.