More midsummer musings

I've followed this site for quite a few years, and it has led me to meet a few contributors, including Tony Abrahams on a number of occasions.

Tony is a rock-solid Evertonian, a very nice guy, who is generous in his efforts to help fellow Blues. I have never read anything on here where he has claimed to have any special knowledge (other than playing football at a very decent level), he has just reported things he has heard.

He doesn't need anyone to stick up for him, nevertheless I fail to see to understand why he has drawn such cynical comments from one of the Editors.

Peter,

Tony has picked me up once or twice and driven a cab full of us to the Bramley Moore pub after the match.

I think I know Liverpool well, but he knows those streets between Goodison Park and Bramley-Moore Dock like a Paratroop Pathfinder!!

Tony, I think you could do it blindfolded!!

Hi Peter,

I agree with you when you describe Tony Abrahams, it's likely that we both met Tony at the first get together at the Central Hotel in 2018 when I was celebrating my 80th birthday. I regard Tony as a gent who went out of his way to drop me and one or two others to the Bramley Moore Pub on more than one or two occasions.

I would agree 100% that Tony is a top bloke, must take after his dad.

Sometimes I think Michael's comments come across as more cynical than they are actually intended. Just saying like….,

Oh and good to see you posting John Mc, I hope you are well.

Danny, I am going to both so look to seeing you. I haven't received a ticket for Salford yet, in the post apparently.

The relationship and loyalty amongst the fan base is astonishing I agree, like you say, “family”.

Well, for my part, I've disliked this Tony Abrahams character since February 1988, when he set up an equaliser for Nottingham Forest's Lee Glover in the dying minutes of a 3-3 draw in the 4th round of the FA Youth Cup. Our boys lost the replay and were denied a chance to beat Liverpool at Anfield.

To the best of my knowledge, he has never even apologised.

Thanks for that memory, Peter.

Although I did score at Anfield when we came back from the dead and scored three goals in the last 20 minutes to force a replay, which we won easily, if that's any consolation mate!

Strange editing.

Tony's obviously humorous comment aimed at his Dad is removed but his Michael K retaliation (albeit mild) is allowed to stand.

I think we need VAR on ToffeeWeb.

Goodison closes its doors in 11 months, Brendan, and if you want to get over, that offer for a couple of tickets still stands.

Peter:

Do you happen to know who Dave Abrahams supported in that match mate?

Brendan @38,

Not sure what you saw but, if it was from Tony, he must have edited his own comment… perhaps to avoid inter-familial angst?

There's no comments not showing… although I'm sorely tempted with some of the banter-bypass nonsense being posted by the usual humourless suspects.

Michael,

No family angst. Tony is his own man and his own opinions, we never always agree, especially about Everton.

I think the only time he wanted to land one on me was when I wouldn't sign the schoolboy forms that would have tied him to Everton.

I preferred to wait but maybe he would agree now that he did okay going to Forest — not just in football terms but learning about life in general.

Dave,

Thus affording him (inadvertently?) direct personal and professional contact with Brian Clough — plus striking up a lifelong friendship with a (then future) Everton manager...

Priceless!

I enjoyed my time at Forest, Dave, but looking back it definitely wasn't the right club for me and, in my heart, I have always felt that I would have done so much better if I'd signed for the club who I want to get beat every single fucking week.

I'm sure you can get your own match ticket, Michael, but, if you want to do us all a favour and take a week off doing those awful match reports, Michael (just my opinion!) then you can also sit in my seat before Goodison closes its doors forever more.

My brother, who is also called Michael, sits next to me, and you and him would get on like a house on fire, slaughtering me — unless Dominic Calvert-Lewin is still playing because he hates him even more than you!

Goodison closes its doors in 11 months, Brendan, and if you want to get over, that offer for a couple of tickets still stands.

Thanks Tony,

Bit like you, I recently became a grandfather... three boys in 15 months so we're flat out baby sitting.

However, we've managed to free up a bit more of the week and, as soon as I get a wee foreign jaunt and our oldest son's wedding out of the way, I mean to make plans to take you up on your very generous offer.

Michael K, I'll match Tony's offer.

If my match-going mate can't make one of the games this season, I'll let you know and if you can get to Goodison I'll make sure the ticket is yours for the day.

Very generous, Tony, but I couldn't possibly deny you a home game watching your beloved Blues.

Responding literally to your excellent jibe, the match reports are not intended for ardent matchgoers like you, but more as a personal record of proceedings that may be useful for anyone who is neither at the game nor watching a live stream. But perhaps I can now train one of these large language models to generate them for me in a suitably robotic style?

It's good to hear that at least one of your kin is well-named and seems to demonstrate excellent analytical judgment when it comes to football matters…

I don't know how you manage to write those reports live, Michael.

I struggle watching the match and normally give myself a day or two to reflect!!

There are plenty on here who can get you a ticket for Goodison and you can meet some of the characters at one of the usual watering holes near County Road.

It would be good to meet in person.

Michael, as Danny says, it would be great to meet up and you will always be more than welcome at a host of the locals.

Don't forget to bring cash though, credit/debit cards not accepted.

Speaking of tickets, as it's already been mentioned and I know the season hasn't even started yet, but I'd really like to get up to Goodison Park this season.

Is there anyone who already knows they're going to miss a game this season who has a ticket to sell? For me down south, it takes a bit of planning!

Those live reports from MK are unique. I rarely use the live forum and those reports are how I follow Everton if I can't see the game. It is proper live reporting.

Tony, I'd love to see MK sit with Cameron. Hope he's okay, by the way.

In the absence of footy. I switched to the all-Ireland Hurling final on BBC 2

God knows what's going on, but nobody is rolling around feigning injury. Nobody is looking to play it sideways, and nobody in this crowd is leaving early.

Fantastic watch!

Dave, I've tried to push the game on here but was probably going on too much.

An incredible sport. Glad BBC have started showing. Football final next Sunday

Hurling fascinates Yanks. It is a good watch.

There are some who seem to have enjoyed my posts of yesteryear.

I recently submitted three posts concerning Frank Swift [Manchester City and England].

Tommy Lawton [Everton, Chelsea, Arsenal, and England]

Joe Mercer [Everton, Arsenal and England].

The editor refused to accept any other posts of nostalgia which would have included,

Johnny Carey [Manchester United and Ireland.]

Billy Wright [Wolverhampton Wanderers, and England].

Stanley Matthews [Stoke City, Blackpool, and England.]

Raich Carter, [Sunderland, Derby County, and England.]

Wilf Mannion, [Middelsbrough and England.]

Tom Finney, [Preston North End, and England.]

I wasn't surprised by the editors decision because he and I have crossed swords in the past, but I feel I had to get it off my chest irrespective of the outcome, and if 'God spares me' I look forward to meeting up with the boys in either the Harlech Castle or Bramley Moore

Shane, hurling looks dangerous.

People waving what look like riot batons at each other!!

Curling however, I can only describe as a combination of crown green bowling and brushing the kitchen floor on ice

John, you have a richness of Everton history and you've educated me on occasion.

I too look forward to the next get together at the Harlech and then onto the Bramley Moore pub. God bless John Senior.

Danny and yet you never see a man lying down.

Epic stuff today after extra time today.

Hurling — not being biased, but the best game in the world, played by amateur players, unbelievable.

Paul,

Blood is thicker than water and I wanted Forest to win but kept quiet when Forest scored that equaliser. I wish there was a video of how Tony set that goal up, it would give an idea how good he was with the ball, a dead ball in open play.

Anyway I couldn't control myself when Forest scored the equaliser at Anfield with another goal from Lee Glover, what a footballer/ goalscorer he was, from the Midlands but born in Scotland at his dad's instructions so he could play for Scotland, which he did playing for Scotland's U21s at 17.

Injuries, and plenty of them, spoiled this kid of a very good career.

John Mc Snr, what was your opinion of Billy Wright?

He's considered one of the greats of English football but my dad said he was rubbish and totally overrated.

I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Hurling is what I do after a few bevvies.

Hi Tony [58] Using a cricketing term, I reached '86 not out' on Monday, and I'm afraid that my recent memory is not what it used to be, but It would be a pleasure to be able to pass some of what is left, to you.

Billy Wright was average at best and certainly no Bobby Moore.

Played in a very good Wolves team of the Fifties back in the day of much different boots and ''caseballs'' (casies as we called them).

Billy Wright.

Overrated.

Congratulations on becoming a grandad, Brendan, even though it sounds like you've got your work cut out right now.

I suggest this non-Everton thread is left open 24/7. Michael and Lyndon, what do you think?

Someone was asking for tickets to a game at Goodison, before she closes her doors forever, earlier, and now I can't find out who it was.

I'm away early in the season and won't be going to the Bournemouth game. I've told my mate Andy C, but haven't heard if he's going to be able to get over and if he can't, I'm sure someone would like the tickets in a season they might just become hard to obtain?

Tony, I think it is Peter Day at post 6 above

Shane/Christy, this Yank loves hurling, but US TV shows it all too seldom.

I also love Aussie Rules football, for the same reason you mention -- nobody rolling around feigning injury. The Aussies wouldn't have it. I get 4-5 games a week here.

I learned a new word yesterday thanks to Christine.

Redaction; the process of editing text for publication. “What was left after the redaction would be virtually useless.”

Maybe Michael is not so literal afterall!

Tony, the post was redacted as was half of the thread for some reason! Disappeared or deemed unsuitable/ irrelevant.. all in an effort of keeping everyone on topic. Glad you liked it.

I think my last post actually started with the comment, "Blimey, this thread has more redactions than the Blue Book Project!" Which was not Lyndon's excellent book, but the US set of files on UFOs... They disappeared too!

Tony #39,

Are those Bournemouth ticket(s) still available? If they are, I'll gladly take you up on your offer.

Andy isn't going so of course you can use them, Brendan.

I've just noticed that now thanks, Neil, so hopefully I can fix Peter up for a game at Goodison this season.

Many thanks, Tony.

I'll get your contact details from Andy and will be in touch.

With Onana now gone, I'm trying to think of previous direct transfers between Everton and Aston Villa and how they worked out.

Steve McMahon,
David Unsworth,
El Ghazi.
Gareth Farrelly,
David Ginola,
Tommy Johnson,
Steve Watson.

Not exactly roaring successes.

Kieran, you forgotten about Lucas Digne already?

Rob,

I knew there was a more recent one. Thanks for the reminder.

Kieran,

A few from the days before the Premier League made that journey including (if my memory is half decent) Derek Mountfield, Ken McNaught and Andy Gray.

Who knows how successful they were!

Ian,

Another pre-Premier League era was John Gidman.

Pat Heard?

This one will top them all — Earl Barrett.

Rob, forgot about him, another decent player.

Sound, Brendan.

Hopefully you have got enough time to get some cheap flights, and I'd get on the hotels as well because it might coincide with the very busy August Bank Holiday, mate

Kieran.

Ken McNaught, Martin Keown.

Eddie,

I guess McNaught was before my time but I remember Keown. Didn't do much for us at first then as soon as he found form he was off to Arsenal.

Hi Brendan, I've had some issues with my emails, so I haven't got your details. Drop me a line at crooksandy7@gmail.com and I'll send you Tony's phone number. We can arrange to catch up too.

Make sure you get to meet everyone at the Harlech. You'll have the time of your life, Brendan, and maybe bring more luck than I have lately!!

Thanks Andy will do

Pat Heard! That brings back some memories. He was in the Joe McBride peer group. Pat, Joe, and a lovely fella Paul Lodge used to hang out with us at The George in Crosby.

Pat didn't do so bad; he won a European Cup winners medal! We kept in touch: decent solid career at the likes of the Skunks, Wednesday, 'boro, Hull (where I think he was born, but he did not have that fecking hideous Hull accent).

He ran a pub right by Hull's ground. He was also a hypnotist - he was once low on the bill at The Floral Hall in Stephens-ville. Last I heard, Heard was a driving instructor in the midlands.

Lovely fella.

Didn't Jill Scott move from us to Villa, or was it from City?

Hi Colin [32] apologies for not replying to your post, I was having problems with my lap-top, and though I attended a few games in 1948 they have been locked away in a misty corner of my mind. Even now I can't recall many games in the relegation season, but the Division Two games now and again cross my mind.

My first recollection of Billy Wright was on Boxing Day in 1954, [our promotion season] Wolves lost 3-1 at Molineux on Christmas Day, and 3-2 at Goodison on Boxing Day, where Dave Hickson gave Wright a hard time before 75,322. Wright headed the ball so many times during the game that he was taken to hospital, Walton I believe.

Wright's international debut was against Belgium at Wembley in 1946, and his last game was against USA in Los Angeles 1959. [105 international caps].

I love tales of old John. The likes of yourself and Dave Abrahams know way more about Everton than I can ever hope to. Maybe one day?!

If anyone hasn't done so, listen in to Lyndon and Rob Sawyer's podcast.

And go to St Luke's to visit the Everton Heritage Society.

Brendan, hope to see you at Goodison soon. As Andy says, you'll meet some interesting characters, but you'll be looked after!!

Rob Halligan.

John Gidman, what a player he was, well ahead of his time.

He would be the perfect full-back in today's game. Loved to overlap, could cross a ball, and had a decent shot on him, I remember.

Rob & Edward:

Pat Heard, I think, went the other way in the deal that brought Gidman to us. He was a great full-back, Edward, all you say is spot on mate.

Brendan, I also look forward to meeting you.

Hi Danny [52],

I nearly fell down when I read, 'I love tales of old John', but then it dawned on me that you meant, 'I love tales of old, John'.

I am looking forward to meeting the usual gang and possibly some newcomers.

You know me now, John, and I respect your views and experience. Take care friend.

I could have done without knowing Martin Keown wore our Blue shirt.

I can't make Salford, but I'm all good for Coventry. I have a bit of race to get to the Roma match due to a family wedding in the West Midlands, but I've got it sorted.

As we're talking past players, probably the first one I remember was Bob Latchford. After that, Duncan McKenzie.

I remember Steve McMahon as my best mate's Grandad used to take him as a young boy to the match on the bus from Halewood.

I don't know if it's an urban myth, but rumour has suggested he went to Villa because he was intended to go to Liverpool, but blue paint was poured on his car and he got a bit of abuse. He eventually ended up on the other side anyway.

He wasn't a nice person. I once bumped into him in a pub in Woolton. He pushed in front of me at a five deep bar, so I told him I was first.

"Do you know who I am?" was his response. Honestly.

Good player though.

Feck me! Dear Lord. Have you seen the new shite home kit?

https://hypebeast.com/2024/5/liverpool-football-club-nike-new-home-jersey

That "collar" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

And some people just have to moan and moan and moan about our boss new kit with its boss collar.

Let's see what our away kit and third strips are. I hoping for Amber.

As long as we are rid of that pink thing from last season that looked like a kid had painted on it!!

Paul, agreed that kit is truly awful.

I quite like ours too mate.

Danny, 2nd - White w/black and yellow collar.
3rd- Black w/yellow trim

No amber, Darryl?

With all this ownership debate going on, we'll be at Coventry next week. Still tickets for Preston but I can't make that. Plenty of tickets available for the Roma match, which I'll be at.

And then back to real business on 17 August.

2nd/away - amber shirt, blue round collar, blue ring end of sleeves - blue shorts - amber and blue hooped socks

Oh Lordy I'd be back in Primary school again, being force fed milk by the Ursuline nuns (I still don't drink milk today, can't bear the stuff, makes me think of poisoned penguins)

Paul, you've just made me think of the sterilised milk that my Auntie used to make me drink and pour on my cereal.

I used to feel sick!!

Those going, it would be good to know a meeting place before Coventry.

The mother of all horrors, my grandmother in Hathersage (next to Sheffield) trying to make me drink sterilised milk (that smell has not left me) while she waddled round the house, driving my poor mother mad, asking us all "Have you been? Have you been?" (to the bog).

At least I could run away to Little John's grave in the cemetery.

Coventry ticket arrived in the post. I'm in the safe standing area. Hope to see a few of you there.

Roma already sorted. That's on the app / wallet on the phone. Adelphi booked, but my sister may insist I stay at hers in Speke!!

Danny, stay in your sisters, the Adelphi is like a trapper's hut!

I went there to do a job and the rooms were dusty and I found a pint glass hidden behind a curtain yellowed by age, full of ciggy stumps and a questionable liquid!

Mick, I know. I've stayed there a few times as it's close to Lime Street for the first train. But I agree, it feels like walking into what I imagine 1923 must have been like!!

My sister can drop me at Runcorn and I could go to some of my old haunts.

what the feck is this opening ceremony about - pissing down with rain, shit french music, one of those boats will sink.

That piano will never be the same again!

The Great Britain boat appears and the fecking Yanks cut to shots of the Yanks on the Yank boat dancing around in plazzy rainwear like proper Yanks and the boat hasn't hit the river yet and, yep, an ad break.

Yank coverage of the Olympics is truly appalling. Tbe BBC shows everything that matters regardless of nation with, of course, a UK focus. But the Yanks!

And so here we are as the gun is raised to start this 800 metre final but we need to go straight to Chuck at the break dancing where Maverick Noah Gun Junior III from the great state of West Virginia is about to make his first qualifying dance. Go Maverick.

This is the worst Olympic opening ceremony for a long time, some of the boats look like the Royal Daffodil or the fish and chips special on a Saturday night in the 70s and 80s.

Since Berlin 1936 Bill.

I have no idea what is going on but here in Yank-land we have what would seem to be some sort of programmed AI voice that talks over the Yank presenters with their cringe jokes and affected friendly chat.

We got some fire-eaters legging it across bridges, some lady on top of a big building singing, some knob with a torch trying to dodge obstacles on rooftops, a castrato letting off doves, plenty of empty spaces where crowds should be, countries bashing each other for space on shared boats (I'm watching you Finland), 2 Lybians both enetred for the shooting (appropriate), one fecking Litchensteiner on a boat, and the Yank boat getting ready to invade.

And, there we go, the Yanks on the invasion barge singing "USA, USA", the only nation so far in this global event singing their national name in true Trump rally style.

Can't wait for the coverage of the Yank Golf team — "Get in the hole!!"

Trump on truthsocial posting that the Mexican boat is full of illegals trying to get into France.

In my previous article, it may have been the Royal Iris.

At 84, my memory is not what you would call 'perfect'.

It's Iris, Bill.

Here in Canada, we must be on a different time zone than you Paul, the American boat hasn't arrived yet and now they have a fashion show going on in an Olympic opening ceremony.

Ontario/Nova Scotia are one hour ahead of US central Bill. US barge still on the way but the US channels keep showing it.

We're at North Korea right now.

Somalia just passing now… looks like some pirates are trying to board them in rowing boats.

Ha ha ha ha, Togo now, everyone getting ready for the USA invasion barge.

That's nice, Turkey sharing a boat with Armenia.

Is it any wonder that Europe has such mixed feelings about USA when the Yanks on the invasion barge are singing loudly "USA, USA, USA" — including the arch-nationalist Coco Gauff — in erm an event that is supposed to represent and celebrate world unity and togetherness?

How many cretins can you squash into one boat? All of them, every camera angle, "USA, USA, USA!"

Only the Yanks have gone all nationalist and that includes North Korea, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, and China.

There seems to be a load of eedjits sitting at a very long dining table, getting very angry because a bunch of silly buggers are jumping up and down on the table instead of bringing them their grub.

What a load of shite this Olympics opening ceremony is! Nearly as bad as that thread “How will we even get there”?

Have to agree with you Rob, they have got one thing right it will be remembered, only thing it will be remembered for the worst opening ceremony. Sorry i never met some of you when i was back home in April

They're not French military they're not running - count those empties in the spectator stands it's like The Ethiad

I remember Bill, that you would try and get to the 5ways pub before whatever game it was. You've got about ten months to get over and get there again before our match routine changes! 😁😁😁

Hi Rob I made it to the 5ways I believe it was on the night before the Nottingham game, I walked up there from where I was stopping, I also went to the other pub among many more where you get the coach for away games, under the underpass on the end of the M52. I hope to get back again soon, health allowing.

Ah, The Rocket, Bill. I very rarely go in there.

Where the feck is the Olympic flame; the games cannot be opened can they until the mighty flame of old is lit and burning? Clearly Macron is pushing things along as he want's to get home and out of the rain. Where's that twat with the flame who was legging it over rooftops, bridges, and bollards?

Ah, here we go, is Zidane gonna nut the torch in its middle?

LOL the Yank commentator says Serena holds the torch over to 'a blonde woman' - Nadio fecking Comeneci - where's this fecking flame and torch going?

You have to hand it to the French, this is just the sort of thing they so monumentally fuck up.

The time they took on this Ceremony, shows why they should have kept up with tradition and held it in the stadium were all the athletes gathered, who wants a tour of Paris it is supposed to be a sporting event not a travel guide

Zidane looked a proper soft twat in his suit with white trainers

That balloon thing looks like a giant jelly fish

Jeez, thank god I've got Salford to look forward to

Blow up balloon please blow up - no injuries. This is fecking awful, Now some cat is whining some sort of song. The French can never ever be allowed to inflict this on us ever again; is this payback time reverse psychology for when we saved them twice after they legged it from the Germans?

Was it Zidane who cheated the Irish with that hand he is holding the torch?

Bill, That was Thierry Henry

Thanks Neil,

Steady on, Paul, she is Canadian, Celine Dion. Better known for the song from the movie the Titanic.

Disappointed not to see Maupay or Dacourt among the torch bearers at the end there.

I saw that Bill and good on her, I understand that she is sadly suffering from a degenerative disease.

Someone put mushrooms in my coffee. I woke up and am having hallucinations of a strange new world of glittery pirate ships rolling down the road, Snoop Dog lighting a giant spliff with a big flame, what looked like 6 Beyonces cavorting in the medium of ' interpretative dance' and it wont end!! Please send help

Enough of that nonsense, time to go and get some fresh Lobster rolls and beer

Load of shite!
Arsed.

With all them boats you can be sure the French will try to get them over to Dover

You need to get with it, Ray mate, I'm just being told by Yank presenters that we now need to end opening ceremonies from now on because it is impossible to be better than this "and it was all on boats".

100 years ago in Paris they had an event that involved “athletes” sitting on square metre platforms on poles until they fell off.

This time they have break dancing. Load of fcuking shite!

The World Athletic Championships is the real deal - this is fcuking nonsense.

PF
If Blue Bill was still around he would be signing up the director of that spectacle for BMD opening night
' Wonderful show Pierre luvvy just what the Blue Wall end needs to get them off their seats'

Paul it would be great for the States to get the Olympics' as to out do the other Countries it would be the first Olympic flame to be lit up on the moon

Ray, that twat must have had a hand in some of the cheesier - sorry more cheesier - things in 2012. Bill, the Olympics would be on the moon mate, and we won't have to wait long as they're supposed to be in LA in 2028.

I'm surprised the Somalia team were in a boat, as opposed to, well, er, in a boat! Don't they normally attack people in bigger boats?

Poetry used to be an Olympic event.

I say bring it back.

Thank fuck for Celine Dion.

Poetry died with Seamus Heaney.

I was hoping the the Somalia boat might link up with the Yemen boat and ram the Yank boat, Rob.

Bill they've got the next one, in LA (again)

Paul, while Michael Langley lives, poetry lives.

I am a huge admirer of Seamus Heaney. The Strand at Lough Beg haunts me and mid term break is the epitome of recalling childhood trauma as an adult.

Apologies, Paul, I'm in full on pretentious mode tonight!!

I'd love to have a thread on poetry, Andy!

I was exaggerating, I was reading Seamus Heaney last night and he was on my mind. There are many top poets around but I don't know Langley well, so thanks for the tip.

Sounds to me like poetry is having the impacts on you that its authors would hope for.

Paul, read Longley's poem Ceasefire.

That shows why we have a semblance of peace here.

Wow, I did not know that poem, Andy. Thank you for introducing it to me.

The last two lines. So powerful for being published in 1998. It would be nice to think that this is read and taught in schools and not just in NI.

Nice TW touch there, you poetry hippies. Pardon me but can you show me the way to a Salford Shitty live forum?

You, who were before in such a hurry,
listen to the tale of avenues,
junctions and roundabouts.

You're stuck there speechless, invisible
like a soul that has to
come into the world
and is looking for someone, or something,
to get it an entrance there.

Hope this is some help, Dale 😅

What a fucking racket the French crowd are making in the Rugby. Feel like its getting played in my living room

All Ireland Football Final Day. Biggest sporting day of the year. Live on BBC.

Shane,

I watched a few matches when I was back at the joint Police Station / Patrol Base in Crossmaglen. There was a pitch out the back. I have to confess, it confused the heck out of me, but it was good to watch in down time.

Danny, that pitch and barracks are one of the most iconic in the sport. The contrast between the British presence and the sport steeped in Republicanism.

I assume you weren't aware of the relevance?

No Shane, like I say, we just used to watch over the back wall. I was fascinated, but couldn't figure out the rules. To the uneducated, it seems a free-for-all!!

Interesting watching the Seamus documentary. I knew about his background in Gaelic Sports but interesting learning his journey from there to football, Sligo and Everton.

Shane, just sitting down with a cup of tea and a fig roll to enjoy. I would recommend anyone on ToffeeWeb to tune in and see old style, proper sport.

Galway is one of my favourite places with good friends there, so I'll be supporting them. Last time I was there, I was chatting to a girl who came to study aged 18 and never left.

I'll never forget her description of her adopted home: Galway, where ambition comes to die.

I fucking love fig rolls.

Fig Rolls. Blast from the past.

Giving it a go. Still confused. How does the scoring work?

0-6 and 0-6.

I guess I'll go for Armagh as I've spent time there and my sister lives there!

Nice, Andy!

I'm out of my league but here are a couple that always stuck with me: Decoy by John Ashberry; Black Dada Nihilismus by Leroi Jones (Amiri Baraka).

My last English poetry lesson was Betjeman's lovely ode to Slough.

Six points each, Danny.

If they get a goal it becomes 1-06 which is nine points as a goal is worth three.

Is there anything more monumentally dull than watching swimming?

It is the most boring thing in the history of mankind. Also, is walking no longer a sport? Who as a child did not piss themselves laughing at the insane mincing antics of those 20 km walkers.

To think poetry was dumped and this shite pollutes our screens. I think the ultimate aim is to create enough sports to allow everyone to be an Olympian.

Hide and seek next time round?

FFS…….that was some speech!!

I thought the president's was better.

Only cos you probably understood it, Shane!

Ha true. The president of the GAA just happens to be from Armag,h and his son is on the Armagh team, so I'm sure it was hard not to get emotional.

Isn't Croke Park going to be used at Euro 28?

Pitch looked absolutely massive, but I'm sure will be reduced in size for the Euros.

I don't think it is, Rob, but it has hosted soccer and rugby before and they just move the goals.

The GAA pitch is a good bit bigger.

Emlyn castrato Hughes said that his number one biscuits were fig rolls and since then not one of those snide little sausage roll wannabes has entered my digestive system.

Though I was moved by Brian W's emotional salutation of the evil little bastards.

I watched it, Shane. It was entertaining, but I still couldn't figure it out. Bounce, kick, throw. It just seems a free-for-all. But my Tandragee based brother-in-law was happy!

Rob, for Dublin, they're using the Aviva Stadium.

Hamden Park in Glasgow.

And then inevitably, controversy in Belfast as they've gone for Casement Park, which I'm not sure has been built yet. Unionists were not best pleased they weren't using Windsor Park!!

St Jame's, Villa Park (surprised the capacity is only 42,000). Cardiff, Tottenham, the Etihad.

And then of course, The Everton Stadium.

Anfield and Old Trafford ruled out.

Rob #153,

I think that's Casement Park in Belfast which is earmarked to host Euro 28 matches. Some minor issues yet to be resolved before that happens, however… like building Casement Park stadium.

Look up the rules, Danny. It's reasonably straightforward. Here's the same two teams playing in front of the barracks in 1999

Link

Doubtful if Casement will be built on time. Whispers that Pairc Ui Chaoimh will take its place.

Whatever Casement Park do, don't hire the company that's building the loft extension at Anfield.

They will still be building it after the Euros have finished.

Is that the one on the river, Shane? If so, it's lovely.

But it's in Cork and isn't this second stadium supposed to be in Northerm Ireland?

That's a great shot, Shane. I remember that tower well and many of the others on the hilltops of South Armagh that we used to rotate around.

In honesty, when out and about, most of the locals were fine with us. The kids used to come up to us and 5 high us and ask us if they could hold our rifles. Had to draw a line there!!!

Slightly different in west Belfast, especially going into Divis flats.

I aim to go and visit the place of my Grandfather's birth on the Antrim Road near the old Crumlin Road as I obviously didn't get the chance in my time out there.

That's it, Paul, and you're correct in what you say. Just rumours at this point.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. A lot of politics involved.

They've been at that for ages, Rob.

Every time I walk past it on the way to the Arkles, I look at it. They've practically closed Anfield Road. I don't think it exists anymore.

Alas those Northern Ireland stadiums — built and unbuilt — are not in the same league as the one on the river in Cork. I hope this ends well.

Rory Mcllroy must have a massive back garden, couldn't we just chalk out a pitch and put some chairs around it?

He did have a huge house, Paul, in Holywood. Unfortunately, it was, for Rory, the wrong Hollywood. A missing L.

His ex girlfriend, who became a very minor celebrity on the back of being his girlfriend lived there For a time.It might well make a venue for a match, it never really looked like a venue for a house.

I don't think we will be hosting any Euro games here which is disappointing. But hey, who knows

Paul and Andy, sounds perfect!

Chairs are better for segregation but the capacity would increase with benches.

As I've said previously, a stadium with a seated capacity of just over 50,000 can extend that to over 60,000 with safe standing.

Don't ask me how they do it, I don't understand the science.

For those going tomorrow, let me know if you're meeting up. The last time I went to Coventry, it was the old Highfield Road. I was only young, so didn't bother with watering holes. More recently, I've only passed through on the train on the way up to the homeland.

I'll jump off in the city centre before heading to the stadium. There is an Arena station, but there doesn't seem to be a lot around there.

If not, I'll see you in the ground.

I see Preston is already sold out, not that I could go. Brighton showing as sold out. You all never cease to amaze!

Still tickets for the Roma match. Get down to Goodison Park.

It's actually very clever what Liverpool have done, Danny, because they seemed to have grabbed quite a bit of land for themselves. There was a WhatsApp doing the rounds the other week that was saying they had offered someone £4 million, for a house on Anfield Rd but the fella had allegedly turned them down because he was a massive Evertonian.

It might not be true but there was suggestions he was holding out for an extra million pounds, which makes me think of how the previous owners of Liverpool Football Club had purposely allowed the area around the stadium to become rundown to help them get rid of the tenants who didn't want to sell their houses to the club because they had lived in the area all their lives.

They have sometimes got very short, selective memories those supporters across the park, because as I've said before, they weren't singing “Fuck the Tories” when their club was driving the local residents away.

It's a bit like when they built the Centenary stand to replace the previous Kemlyn Road stand.

I always remember three houses still standing. One still housed, apparently by three ladies who refused to sell or move and two derelict ones either side.

It set them back years.

I used to walk past with my step-Grandmother on the way to the shops on Walton Breck Road.

She was a Kopite and always used to comment that they must be Evertonians!! I don't know if they where, but I used to believe it!!

I often thought we could have redeveloped Goodison, but we would have probably had to do similar and might have included taking the Gwladys Street School and those houses opposite the Bullens Road.

I'm glad we've done Bramley Moore. I was watching the latest footage after the final cladding was completed. She's increasingly looking magnificent.

I hate mention of the rs on here but at least Tony and Danny's mentions are suitably disparaging.

Now that the roof has been completed the stadium is definitely looking magnificent, Danny, and that's just in natural daylight before we have seen it all lit up.

Jesus, might have walked on water, but he couldn't build a football stadium on water, so hopefully that major source of life in our city (The River Mersey) helps bring real life and happiness back into the sleeping giant!

Bit of banter with some red mates recently:

“You wait a couple of years and it'll be sinkin!”

Me: “Why?”

“It's built on sand…. ha ha ha!”

“So are the Pyramids. And?”

Good come back that Ray!!

I've done my research. There are three Whetherspoons close to Coventry station.

And then it's only 7 minutes on the train and £3 from Coventry station to the Coventry Arena station.

See you there, Blues.

Ray @172.

I think the actual stadium is built on concrete around the sand.

I think just the pitch is on the sand.

Paul, the dock before infil ran west to east. The ground runs south to north. So, I don't see that the stadium could be built purely on the original dock wall.

Brent #178.

It's not.

They installed over 2000 piles as part of the stadium foundation — all of which were driven through the compacted sand.

It will be great to see the pitch laid.

I was talking to my sister yesterday and her son, my nephew, who is joining a new career and doesn't think he will get there often next season, so was thinking of giving up his season ticket.

I shouted down the phone "Don't you dare!!!" So he's keeping it.

They are like blue gold dust.

Neil, I don't believe there's been 2,000 piles driven through the compacted sand that filled the dock.

More likely the majority of that infilled area is under the pitch where there will be no great loads placed on it, with the piling being done around the infilled dock to support the weight of the structures which will generate great loads on them.

Oh, just saw Paul's post at #177 and I agree.

Jesus Christ, I only mentioned the Pyramids!

Isn't that where Brian W, shops!

That's Poundland Tony.

Oi, you two! 👀

There's loadsa piles, Neil — not 2,000 though, you're right.

Installation of piles at Bramley-Moore Dock

This article, from 3½ years ago, mentions at least 2,500 piles supporting the structure, so that means underneath all the stands.

The North and South stands are built on the old dock wharves but still required extensive piling for the foundations. The East and West stands straddle the old now sand-filled dock.

The sand was heavily compacted before driving the piles which rely on mobilizing 'skin friction' through contact with the sand over their entire length and circumference to provide stable support for the required loads.

Using the same foundation method should reduce the risk for differential settlement where the new stands straddle the old dock walls.

Great loads, straddling, skin friction, entire length and circumference, stable support for the required loads, and infilled areas.

This thread is well quite horny.

I was just coming on to defend you Dapper Brian, but you don't need me to do that for you mate!

Thanks Michael because that link takes you to more links by Tony E, and it's amazing looking back at when they started this incredible project.

Paul #193,

Not for me. I got a bit put off by 'driving the piles'.

Can I just chuck this one in plz?

Here in Aussie we just got a report that Man Utd are debating redevelopment of Old Trafford or building a new A$3 billion 100,000 capacity venue. Part of a redevelopment scheme. Jolly good too for the North of England.

So jolly good that they are positing that there be government support £££, for the scheme. This in stark contrast to those plucky scousers at Everton who struggled to self-finance a new stadium, got the accounting a bit wrong, and got slammed with a 10-point deduction.

To say I'm steaming is a little of an understatement. Now I'm sure I've got details wrong, but it doesn't reduce my rage.

George, I don't care what Manchester United do, just as much as I don't care what the cousins do.

Our new stadium is iconic.

Link

Tony @ 46,

I think it was me you mentioned, sorry for the delay as I've only just found this thread! I would really appreciate a chance of a ticket at some point, please drop me an email: dozzerday@gmail.com.

I may have received a taxi ride off you to the Bramley Moore pub a couple of seasons ago with Stephen Ashton and a few others after a Fulham game?

Not much wrong with most of what they have said George @ 196 apart from the bit where Man Utd could get government support.

I doubt it very much that they will get money off this shower who have just been elected, my household will be £200 worse off this winter for starters.

Those who voted them in power will regret it when they take the economy down the pan like they always do.

Thanks for that MK. Saved me a long post. The stadium is actually considered to be a suspended or semi suspended construction.

The two ends overlap the 2,500 piles and sit partially on the dock walls, which are untouched so that the dock "could " be reinstated in the distant future without any work being required.

The only sanded area that hasn't been piled is the pitch which "will" experience settlement requiring the pitch to be relaid at some point in the future.

Wrong thread and wrong site Ray.
Fcuk the Tories!

Raymond @203. You must have loved the last few years.

Your mates living above the law, handouts to friends, partying during Covid, celebrating Lizz Truss's and Boris Johnson's amazing performance for the country.

Oh and you got £200 a year whilst most of Britain got lumbered with stupidly high fuel, food and mortgages.

I'm alright, Jack, pull the ladder up… but make sure I get my £200 a year first.

What a trooper.

This coming winter would have been my first winter fuel payment and I'd have received £500.

I was looking forward to what I could buy with it (season ticket renewal maybe).

I read yesterday that it was being stopped for pensioners except those on means tested benefits and I thought.

About time too!

Raymond, have you been in a coma for the past 14 years and just come round?

Look at the shit show your mob made of the economy: stagnant growth, highest tax burden since the war, record borrowing, cost of living crisis, decline in life expectancy in many areas of the country, massive growth in food banks, the biggest act of economic self-sabotage in living memory via Brexit…

But you are whinging about losing a £200 handout you probably don't need and claiming it's Labour who take the economy down the pan.

Brian, my first time too. I wish I could take it as well as you, but I'm a selfish fucker.

What I would like to see is a massive investment in tracking down the tax evaders. A Labour government should not be looking at the poor and prosecuting people who are doing whatever it takes to get by.

Philip Green, a thief and a monster, is an example of who should be. Couldn't remember his name in a post I lost but it came back to me when I thought, fat cunt with long hair at the back of a bald head.

He, and those like him, aren't wealth creators, they're exploiters.

Anyway, I'll just invest in a new shawl for the winter!!!

Andy. I'll make you some soup mate. My mum's recipe.

As she used to say "It'll stick to yer ribs."

Anybody who thinks they will be a bit short in the winters to come due to winter fuel payments being scrapped, then the answer is simple………put a few quid away each month that will help with those fuel bills.

I wonder if cold weather payments will also be scrapped? I worked for the DWP for many years, and often thought what people could do with an extra one off payment of about £10 or £20…. I can't remember how much cold weather payments were now… but I bet it wasn't spent on fuel bills!!

Rob, Brian and Chris — you've given me the expected response.

If you think Labour will do better, good luck with that.

They always make a mess of the economy, just watch the employment figures in 4 or 5 years time. They make things worse for working people — not better.

The whole political system is nonsense, we get a vote every 4 or 5 years and that's called democracy. I for one don't feel like I've any say in what happens, it's token democracy. That's why more and more people are not voting.

Raymond. I don't know how my response was "expected" because, not to put too fine a point on it, you know fuck all about me or my politics mate.

The only point I was making is that I was going to receive £500 which I, very luckily, don't need whatsoever.

If it goes to someone who does need it, then that for me is a win-win.

Do you need the £200 you now won't get?

Likewise me, re: what Brian said. If there's one subject I steer clear of, then it's politics, because I haven't got a scooby doo about it.

I only gave an alternative way to save money for winter fuel payments. I do think the cold weather payments should be scrapped, if they haven't been scrapped already that is. The winter fuel payments, for me anyway, are a necessity, particularly for the really old people, who you often hear about cannot afford to pay their winter fuel bills.

Luckily for me, I doubt very much I will be relying on WFP in years to come.

Rob #212.

Rob, I normally steer well clear too as, like you say, I don't have a clue, and consider one party compared to another as merely a lesser or greater evil.

But If I thought me not getting my £500 would actually go to make someone's life, who needed it, easier then I'm happy to do that.

ps: Can you lend me a couple of hundred quid mate?

Brian, I thought Dave Abrahams was your local bank? 😁😁

My mate, who spends the 4 months of winter in Pattaya, is gutted he won't be getting his winter fuel payment this year.

Brian, it depends what you mean by 'need'; many will not starve because they don't get £200 but some just above the pension credit limit are finding it tough in winter.

What I meant by 'expected' was posters giving an opposite view to myself about the loss of the £200, no need to take offense.

Hurtling towards Coventry.

I don't usually wear colours but I'm in amber today.

Those Tory frauds have simply been replaced by another fraud.

Enjoy your day, Danny!

By "need" I simply mean "would struggle without it." So again, do you need it?

I didn't take offence to be honest, Raymond, but you didn't mention those just above the pension credit limit in your initial post — just "your" household — and that came across badly.

The fact that those who have posted have posted in opposition to your original post should tell you something.

But I'll leave it there if that's okay as I don't like to hijack a footy thread.

Eric # 215…

I wonder how many “Swallows” actually do live abroad during the winter months? WFP's are paid automatically into a bank account, so who's to know if the recipient is living at home or abroad?

Tony #219,

Can you tell your Dave I've not received my pocket money from him this month, please.

Rob #220, we call them "snowbirds" over here.

My mate, and others like him, reckon the cost of flights, rent, utilities and "entertainment expenses" is just about the same as he'd pay in heating in Birmingham for 4 months. So it's a no-brainer to be in Pattaya, especially as he can get some golf in too.

Brian, Dave told me he'd passed on your half a crown to Tony.

I do not understand the worry over winter fuel payments. Try being a pensioner who emigrates to a Commonwealth country to be with their kids and grandkids.

What pension you were receiving when you left is what you will get for the rest of your life, as you do not get any upgrades for the rest of your life, living in a Commonwealth country.

That also applies to anyone who works for years and decides to emigrate to a Commonwealth country.

Agree with you, Bill.

I'll be one of them next year, even though I've paid into National Insurance 4 times what someone in the UK has.

Andy (223),

I've passed on my half a crown to Tony alright; he'll be baldy in a couple of years!

I wouldn't like to tell you how much Brian gets off me for his monthly allotment. I never talk about my good deeds but, if I can give somebody a helping hand then my living has not been in vain, especially if they live in poverty stricken Birkenhead!

Bill,

It is strange that those of us living in the USA with UK pensions receive annual increases and those in Commonwealth countries do not.

Ed 225

Its only British Commonwealth countries that this counts. They say we were told before we left, but I know I only met with 1 government official and he never mentioned any thing, plus since I have been retired in 2004 and eligible for the 20years I earned my pension money, it has not changed.

Every election since, the opposition party has said that it was unfair and if they get in it will be changed, that never happened. Will see what happens now the Labor party got back in, as they say they will change it too what other earners get.

British pensioners living in Spain have received cold weather payments in the past when the temperature falls below a certain level for a certain number of days.
However those in France never get them for the simple reason that the islands in the Pacific and Caribbean are French Overseas Territories and as such their temperatures are added in to the average temperature of the France. The lack of CoL increases for those in the Commonwealth is just another of these absurdities.

Dave#224
I still won't bite you old codger!

Brilliant, Dave!!

Bill #226, not just Commonwealth countries.

Thailand and Viet Nam pensioners have frozen payments, whereas those in Philippines get the yearly increase.

Watching the Olympics and the girls doing the gymnastics, absolutely unbelievable.

They've gone a long way from the unforgettable Olga Corbet and others of that era, remarkable how they can twist their bodies like that along with Tom Daley and other high board divers. Breathtaking!

Dave, have you ever tried it? It's bloody hard!!

He tried it with the remote control once, Rob, and was stuck watching BBC 2 for weeks!

Tony, did he not think to put the batteries back in?

Rob, I know it's hard, that gymnastic stuff, all the training and mental preparation for years on end to finally master the qualities to qualify for the Olympic Games get my complete admiration, hard Rob, definitely, but what a treat to watch such near perfection as a result.

Rob, Of course I tried the batteries, that was the first thing I thought of, I'm not completely stupid, the trouble was the TV set, it's a bit out of date— it needed 50p putting in its slot!

Dave.

Jeez, all those carers should be doing that for you mate.
Maybe your bell isn't working?

Brian,

I don't know how many carers I've had over the last few years, none of them have lasted more than a week.

The agency are taking the piss, keep sending me fuckin' rednoses, most of them need bleedin' carers themselves.

One came who was a Bluenose. Tony was here so they sat talking about Everton for 2 hours while I made them tea and toast!

So he had to go, he was eating me out of house and home and asked me if he could use my season ticket if I didn't feel too good, cheeky bastard.

Him and Tony got on like a house on fire. He's another one I've got my eye on for getting his P45 and comics, blood is not always thicker than water.

Brilliant Dave! You have given me the best laugh of the day.

Dave,

I bet your first remote was one of those on a cord, about 12 feet long, which you plugged into your TV.

Dave your telly's not one of those from Rediffusion on London Road is it?

Rob, I bet his first remote was "Tony lad, turn the channel over."

Nice touch to see Everton and Liverpool representatives coming together to pay respects to the tragic events that happened in Southport.

We may argue like cats and dogs, but when it matters, we come together.

The story goes that Dave used to take his family to sit outside Radio Rentals on deckchairs and watch the telly through the window.

Eric (239), Nearly Eric, just around the corner in Moss St,reet I stopped paying after a bit and they never came to take it back.

Still working after all these years, so it's like a money box with all the money we put in, had it since 1964, you might see me soon on The Antique Road Show with it.

You were absolutely right about the kids being my first remote control users, taking turns apiece, Tony was the youngest so I let him off for his first two years.

All I know is, when the Dave Show is on, it is very good.

Brent, I did something similar for the 1989 FA Cup Final with a Kopite friend.

I don't think it was Radio Rentals but we could see the screen through the window.

I fell out with him at the end, but we're still mates to this day and meet for breakfast!

What a joke, the premier league fine Man City £2M for late kick offs and re-starts over the last two seasons. Pity they can't be so quick looking at their 115 charges…

Man City fined £2M for delaying kick-offs 22 times

Eric, 243,

Best thing out of Radio Rentals was cardboard cut out Indian. Someone took him on an away game. He went everywhere. All away followers knew the figure as "Chico". aka, Alex Scott.

In Australia, not only don't you get British cost of living pension increases but the Oz government deducts any other pension from your Oz age pension on a $ for $ basis.

Seems like they are shit scared of taking them on, Rob. That to me seems like a token effort. We shall see.

I don't know if this pension thing will affect my military pension. I'll be honest, I don't even look at mine. It just helps pay for Everton!!

Anthony Gordon and Steven Gerrard have each donated £10,000 for the victims of the Southport attack. Well done to them, and to all the other people who have donated.

The Welsh youth in custody has been named: Axel Muganwa Rudakubana.

Bit concerned about this O'Brien lad.

Seems a decent lad but doesn't seem to have any tattoos. Have we been sold a dud?

Tattoos Alan?

I think we'll judge him on the pitch. Not by his lack of tattoos.

He is highly rated and has played in Europe.

Tattoos?

I've got a Nil Satis Nisi Optimum tatoo on my forearm. At the gym the other day, the instructor, who I knew to be a plastic Kopite, had a tatoo and I asked him what it said.

“At the end of the storm, there's a golden rain” he said.
“What's that”? I asked? Is it a song or something?
“Yes, it's from You'll Never Walk Alone, Liverpool's song.”
“Ah,” I said, “Do you like mine?”
He squinted at it puzzled. “Is it Latin? What does it say?”
“It says All Kopites are Gobshites” I said…

To be fair, he took it well but I ended up with extra crunches and push ups…

I hope it DID say "there's a golden rain."

Coz the words of the song are "golden sky."

Golden rain has a very different meaning.

Typical plastic Kopite maybe?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Mark, I hope you washed him with holy water and cleansed him!

My brother has an Everton tattoo on his forearm.

I hope the workout went well!!

We'll soon be marching, Mark!!

Danny#254.

Tattoos?

Methinks a joke Danny.

"At the end of a storm, there's a golden shower!"

The perfect pisstake. Almost makes listening to Kenwright's favourite dirge tolerabe.

But not quite.–

Hope not to offend, talking of tattoos, the bloke who gets a tattoo on his willi saying Ludo, when he got excited it said Llandudno.

Pisstake, I get it! 🤣

Not literally like.

Talking of Pisstakes, Everton's sponsors Stake were apparently considering merging with an IT company Progressive Innovative Systems but only if the two companies names could be merged in all of the logo's etc. that was until PIS realised that Stake were major shirt sponsors of Everton.

Craig Shakespeare, the former Leicester manager, and also spent some time with Everton, has died. Was only 60.

Post#262

Boom boom.

Billy # 260……..I've got something similar. It says super, and extends to supercalafragalisticexpialidocious!

Merry pop ins Rob #265

Sad news, wasn't CS assistant when Leicester won the league? I remember people saying that he was just a nice bloke and a funny fecker. Sad news, Fecking cancer. RIP.

I'm excited about some of the new talent in the middle and wide - and central defence - but we need a striker and where do we find one on the cheap. Anyone can see that we need a right back (Jake can play full back as well can't he, left or right?) and, if these never-ending links with speedy midfielders bring us one more we're going to have an ace bench of speedy wingers/mids because the starting XI v Brighton will be:

Pickford, Young, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Mylolenko, Gueye, Garner, Doucoure, McNeil, Harrison, Calvert-Lewin

I got Llan on my knob and when the blood flows it read Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

Ok. Let's quash the penile tattoo theme.
I've got "Me" tattooed on mine and when I get excited it reads "Me".
So you can all fuck off now.

Brian, you may be right - I'm not big on the lyrics of that fcuking dirge and I've been on the ouzo here in Halkadiki.
But this particular lad wouldn't know the words if they were tattooed on his eyelids! Another instructor (also a plastic) told me, totally without irony, this guy is a MAD koppite. “He never misses a single game on the telly”.

I knew a lad who had an arrow pointing to his starfish with the words “welcome to Anfield” on it.

To be honest I never saw it and I thought he was fcuking mental, but that was his claim.

Brian @ 269, that makes me feel better.

So Billy, it's (Bertie) Mee for you! 😁😁

Sad about Craig Shakespeare, rip, didn't he also play with West Brom?

He did Christy in the last few years of witch Thatcher's government.

Mark#270.
See that "never misses a game on telly" that is them to a tee.
Fucking phoney bastards the lot of 'em.
Smash a plate for me! 💙

I never miss a game on telly.

You sound like a red nose Paul.

There was the one about the lad who had Wendy tattooed on his lower digit and when he got excited it read Welcome to New York and have a nice day.

My tattoo says “hi”, excited or not.

I asked the tattooist for “Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch”. He had a look and we settled for Rhyl.

My tattoo is an arrow below my navel pointing down, very helpful sometimes

My best mate went to get the Everton crest tattoo on his arm. He literally started crying one minute in so endededup with a really crappy EFC on his arm!

Neil #282

Like when you have to pee?

Great idea.

Years ago there was a Blue Kipper thread about tats and one guy got it done on the continent where English was not a first language and it read Evertonion. Enough to make you weep.

Brendan #284, yes, spot on. Particularly helpful on cold days.

When you have to have a vasectomy it's kinda worrying that pre-op means a big arrow in felt-tip is drawn by the pre-op nurse below your navel, pointing down.

Am I the only one wondering where else the surgeon may otherwise have been contemplating?

Phil.

May not be the same guy but seems a bit too coincidental not to be.

We were on a pre season tour over in Holland in 1982-83 and I spotted a tat on a lad's belly and told him what it actually read. It was written in calligraphy style. Think he was from Crewe. He thought I was taking the piss but a few other lads confirmed it to him and so he was called the onion from that point on.

My last chance for a few years to see the blues play at Preston on Saturday before heading back to Australia. Be good to catch up with some fellow blues for a beer.

France / Argentina in half-an-hour should be tasty.

Kevin , men are not being allowed to fight in the women's boxing in the Olympics.

Thanks, Shane.

Yes, it seems I have relied upon misleading press reports. Point still stands, I think, with men competing in women's sports. But yes, not in boxing.

Pre-Season may improve even more shortly...our very own Tommy Fleetwood is just 1 shot behind the Yank (who is on final hole) and Tommy and has 3 holes left...COYB Tommy

The Jock Premier League is all but over. We might as well give the hoops the title now.

Imagine our VAR trying to decide the winner of the men's 100 metres? There was about a tenth of a second between first and last. They would have lines everywhere and still wouldn't be able to decide the winner.

And it would have taken them 10 minutes Rob!

On a separate note, I see they're laying the foundations for the pitch in the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Not long to go now, with Roma next up, then the real business starts.

There's a relatively interesting debate on another Everton site, the argument is to whether the Dixie and Holy Trinity statues, should remain in situ at Goodison or whether they should be relocated when Everton move grounds.

I would be in favour, if it's at all possible, of taking the statues to the new stadium, because they are part of Everton's history, and not only a part of the history of Goodison Park.

So deeply sad that Graham Thorpe has left us. I loved watching him play and he really was the backbone for England for over a decade.

He translated effortlessly into coaching. I remember Ben Stokes wearing a tribute/support shirt a couple of years ago when we heard that he was seriously ill. Fifty-fecking-five. RIP.

Nice tribute, Paul #297.

Graham Thorpe, great player, great batting coach, great mentor to the younger players. Some sportsmen just transcend their own sphere. RIP

Heads-up for the Yanks on here... looks like the new USMNT coach will be a Yank, Pellegrino Matarazzo, who managed Hoffenheim to 7th in the Bundesliga and into the Europa League.

[moved from Motherwell thread. Subsequent references to comment numbers may not correlate — Ed]

Jim, how bad is it on Merseyside right now?

Wow that VAR penalty extra time decision was some wait. But what was good was to hear the ref explaining why he had decided not to give the French a penalty. For me, VAR worked there as there was a push on the defender.

Pelligrino Matarazzo is a Yank! I was waiting for a big name.

Never heard of him. Not exactly Klopp or Poch MG, but there was never a chance that one of them would have considered the USA. Quite frankly, what Potter achieved in those three years with Brighton until he lost his senses is the equal of Matarazzo in a single season and probably better.

Hope you and yours are well MG.

Mike (302),

I was in town mid to late afternoon. It was just a quiet Monday with people going about their normal business. There was nothing to suggest this was a city on the edge.

A number of the rioters have been appearing in court. They include a few in their 40s and 50s. All the offenders I have read about are in custody with quite a few more destined to join them.

At present, the violence is not on the scale of 2011 but the next few days will tell us if the swift arrests and numbers in custody prove a sufficient deterrent.

Without wanting to go too political Mike G, but I think the Prime Minister could solve a lot of problems overnight, if he started using a different dialogue, other than blaming everything on the far right.

He said that he would treat the protesters like football hooligans, but I don't think that the police would have let a load of football hooligans, leave their own protest and let them march around a kilometer, to start antagonizing another set of hooligans?

This is actually what happened on Saturday in Liverpool, but the mainstream media won't report it like this, even though the perceived far right, were actually holding a peaceful protest until this was allowed to happen, and then things escalated rapidly.

I'm not far right, and I actually have a son, who lives in an Arab country, but my son wouldn't be allowed to enter without his passport, and this is a very real issue that needs addressing immediately.

This will only happen if the prime minister stops using the media to peddle his false narrative, and starts listening to the concerns of the millions of British people, who are not far right thugs.

Maybe not the place to be airing my view, but if something doesn't happen then it wouldn't surprise me if it started affecting football matches in England over the next few weeks. Let's hope not.

Once the football starts, the rioters will be at the games.

They're not all "Rioters". Only a minority are.

Of course, your TV won't tell you this.

I think I've disagreed with you in the past, Will, but tonight I saw something that, quite astonishingly, my TV didn't tell me.

Interesting, Tony, and I understand what you're saying.

I suspect the majority of the population couldn't care less that we bombed or invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Libya and pay seldom thought as to why or what the possible consequences may have been.

I wonder how many of those Afghani interpreters had passports? Yes, I agree there is a serious discussion to be had by politicians to attempt to reach some sort of solution. If anyone believes Reform has any good solutions they are deluded.

Btw..where is Tommy Robinson getting his funding from? A decent search will reveal Right Wing American Christian Fundamentalist Groups & Israeli-affiliated groups. He has an EU Passport and is an Irish Citizen... how Patriotic is that? Kudos.

A mention must be made of the original French offer which you will know about, which was to build a Process Centre in Calais area to process Asylum claims. They even offered to build it !! Yet the Tory Government declined the offer. Now I wonder why that would be?

It's a fact that many Tory Donors have made many £ millions out of this crisis is indisputable and the disturbances have been fuelled for a very long time by the Right Wing mainstream media. (If I knew how to do it I would display dozens & dozens of Front page headlines proving this. Do you know you can even be arrested for being English in your own Country? [My thanks to Stewart])

Should we ditch International Law or the UN Convention governing Refugees? (ps: They don't need a passport to enter and claim asylum in any country that has signed up to it).
In fact, most people who claim asylum don't chose the UK.

Should we leave the ECHR and leave our Rights to the whim of a Majority UK Govt that thought it in their interests to change some of it if there was an issue with any of it? Yes, a lot of the population is talking about this subject... yet a hell of a lot of them believe propaganda and misinformation (X or Twitter is a cesspool) without doing their own research.

For example, I'm typing from my hospital bed and two fools on the ward have been discussing how 40% of the UK is probably made up of immigrants...

When one got back from cancer surgery, I asked him what % of the staff there would he say were immigrants? I made it over 30% including his Consultant Surgeon.

Anyway I digress... no one claiming asylum in this country is illegal until the final process decision has made them so. So, in practical terms, how do you stop legal claimants who want to come to the UK?

The only practical thing that I can think of is to stop unnecessary interference in other countries... Closer ties and problem solving with other countries and Allies.

(On that note, asylum seekers entering the country are way way beyond anything before Brexit — so much for giving the majority of people what they wanted — when any EU Citizen could be removed if they couldn't support themselves after 3 months... something this country never used.)

We did have an arrangement whilst in the EU under the Dublin Agreement that asylum seekers could be sent back under certain circumstances. So the question remains: What can practically, legally and morally be done to satisfy them?

Stephen.

Around 750,000 immigrants come to this country every year. That's hardly any.

You're totally right, Tony @303, what started out as ordinary people protesting about the numbers of immigrants coming to this country was ruined by numbers of scum who are the cause of many of our troubles.

When I was young in the 1940s-50s the population was 48-50M — it's now at least 68M and still rising.

I don't care what the colour of their skin is, white, brown, black, yellow, pink, blue or whatever, we need to slow down the number of people coming to live here, England is the 2nd most densely populated country in Europe already.

Perhaps you should all start your posts with "I am not racist, but…"

I suppose those who burned down a community library, attacked hotels holding asylum seekers, and vandalised a mosque are just misunderstood dudes? It might be believable if they weren't seen giving the Nazi salute during the protests, attacking Asians and stopping cars to see if the occupants are white and British.

And to claim that the media is whipping up a false narrative when these riots are being systematically organised by the far right via social media!

If you are coming on here to justify this or rationalise it away, you should hang your head in shame.

Also, 5.5 million Brits live permanently abroad and I hope they don't receive the same bullying racism that we seem to think it is fine to inflict on those who migrated here.

Bloody British foreigners.

Steve #33, quite the opposite.

But when asked over the last 40 years that I've lived overseas, why I don't live in England, my response has always been, "Too many foreigners there!"

I'm not surprised by some of the comments on here. We've always had a racist element in our fanbase and that clearly hasn't gone away, it's just that they feel more emboldened again now that Farage and his ilk have made it more acceptable to be bigoted again.

It's bubbled under the surface for years and you see it ripple at matches from time to time in isolated incidents. Some of our so-called fans have probably been gutted not be able to sing ‘Everton Are White' for a number of years.

There was nothing peaceful about the protests that have occurred in our city recently. They were just an excuse for racists and/or dragged up scally scrotes to smash stuff up, destroy livelihoods and blame foreigners for everything that is wrong with their own lives. Burning down a community library is nothing other than sickening, mindless thuggery by dragged-up, feral scumbags.

The irony is that a lot of these scally scrotes and ‘concerned protestors' are themselves 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants but we all know that it's a particularly type of immigrant that they don't want in this country.

Whether it's blaming immigrants for everything because of your veiled racism or mocking Calvert-Lewin's choice of off-field clothing because of your latent homophobia, it won't change or better your own lot but it will make the lives of those you are targeting with your bilious bigotry worse. But I guess that's the end game for some pathetic individuals?

I remember those "Everton Are White" chants. There was a guy who stood near me on the Gwladys Street and used to get on the away coach at Widnes. He was mental.

He must not have realised that Trebilcock was mixed heritage.

I worked with Afghan interpreters a lot. Loyal people. I even let them cut my hair and give me a shave!! Still hurts me how we abandoned those people in the manner how we and the US left the country.

Stephen @29,

You know a lot more than me, mate, but I agree it's usually or always about money, as you point out regarding the many Tory MPs, who will have made an absolute fortune whilst helping to make their donors even more.

Whilst Tommy Robinson is undoubtedly right wing, he has recently put up a video that begins to expose a very, very corrupt system that would cause outrage if it was a Panorama special.

I'd best stop, otherwise people will automatically come to the conclusion that I am also right wing, and although I didn't mind using my stronger right foot, I think I did 80% of my best work when I was using my left!!

I agree with Stephen about Farage but, if Starmer doesn't change track, my worry is that it will open the door for his popularity to grow rapidly. I don't know if he would want the very murky job, but Andy Burnham would be my choice!

And instead of starting my post with "I am not a racist", I would prefer to end my post by saying I am not a racist, because I am not a racist person.

So you don't want illegal immigrants in your country so you must be racist? Bollocks!

First thing, I don't condone the violence and destruction of property — that had nothing to do with protests, it was just mindless violence. But I do care about people coming over here in their thousands every year and getting paid to sit on their arses.

If you want to come over and work, fine — nothing wrong with that. Someone said there are English people living abroad… yes there are, but they're not illegal. This country is falling apart before our very eyes and if you say anything, you're just called a racist. Drives me mad.

Well, I'll tell you something: if things don't change and all these illegal migrants keep coming, we won't have a country left. And if that makes me racist, so be it.

Tony... thanks for your measured response.

For me, these events may well be the precursor for what may occur in the USA in November. I'm sure there are powerful influential people watching this country closely from across the pond.. .and theywill revel in the chaos and see it as an opportunity to manipulate the electorate.

Plans may well be already taking place.

This website is a great football forum for our football club though is a lot poorer for enabling non football posts.

I still don't really understand what these protests were meant to be about? Immigration? What specifically has changed or happened with immigration recently to justify these protests? If it was a political protest wouldn't it have made more sense to protest the last government who saw an unusually high net migration in 2023?

I suspect the reality as Stephen@29 points out is that grifters and disrupters like Robinson, Farage, Katie Hopkins and Laurence Fox are largely responsible and have found ways to make money by stirring up hatred and fearmongering. The cost of living crisis has made life difficult for many people and these ‘commentators' have persuaded many that this is due to the immigrants, sometimes tapping in to prejudices that were already there.

Having a concern around rising immigration numbers does not necessarily make you a racist. But saying I'm not racist does not magically make it so and there's no doubt that there are significant racist elements involved in such protests and within the narratives peddled by the likes of Farage, Robinson, Fox etc (to lesser or more degrees depending on the individual). Division can be very profitable for those who seek to sow it and we should be wary of such ‘patriots'.

Paul.
I haven't read anything on here that condones illegal immigration.
Illegal immigrants should be deported and are deported.
Illegal immigrants aren't provided with anything except a plane home.
Do you really know what you're talking about?

As we spoke Tony, Labour missed a trick with Andy Burnham. I've met him twice. Once on train coming back from the west country and more recently at Euston when we we both coming from an Everton home match.

I like the comment about Italian defenders. Having played against a few, they are ruthless, and don't take prisoners. On a pre-season tour, one of my mates got poked the eye out of the referees site. His eye was bloodshot for weeks! They don't play nice, but they are effective.

Sam # 47, completely agree. Immigration is about economics and labour costs. The people left behind by the establishment are being trained to hate immigrants - when they should be questioning why the establishment has left them behind.

Paul H- and anyone else on here who hasn't read it - I recommend James O'Brians book “How They Broke Britain”

It will open your eyes to who the culprits are for our countries demise over the last 20 years and will provide some reasoned clarity to the subject of immigration and the current histerical reaction to it.

On a similar note, one of the three main factors of the UK's failing economy is believed ( by financial experts) is the lack of foreign workers from the EU - Poles, Romanians etc, who used to do the agricultural and social services work that British people haven't taken up since.

Btw The majority of the “illegal” immigrants are seeking asylum. It is NOT, and never has been, illegal to seek asylum by immigration, and economic immigration is included in that.

Stephen@320. You're part of the problem I'm afraid

And those people who come over here and sit on their arses are the minority that gets the attention from the msm. The majority are sitting on their arses in hotels due to the glacier like speed of the processing needed to enable them to work.
And we receive less immigrants, “illegal”or otherwise, than most other European countries are accepting.

Steve 32, so if you complain about immigration your a racist,what a crass response.

Its running away from problems in this country that is part of the problem, burying heads in the sand and pretending they will dissapear.

What about quality of life, lets let everyone in and build more and more houses on green belt etc, not to mention our overburdened road systems, great idea.

Free speech has been stifled by the 'your a racist card', go and talk to the man in the street in northern towns at least and see what the majority say.

Mark. You shouldn't come over here unless you actually have a job.

It might be an idea for the editors to set up a separate thread for this. Not knocking it but I'd rather know which threads one can escape into football on, and hoping Dele gets his mojo back is escapism for me!

Paul... part of the problem for raising Facts? Particularly of the problem for agreeing with you regarding illegal immigration?

Re You're other message.
I take it that you support this country sticking by it's commitments and promises or do you condone the breaking of laws?
It is lawful for certain people to come here without a job.

May we hear any of your solutions to this issue.
If you haven't got any please just say so.
Thanks

My solution. Simple, if you don't have a job somewhere to live and private medical insurance then you can't come in. Same thing that my mate had to have when he went living in Australia 20 years ago. Why's that so wrong?

(Limiting) immigration has traditionally been very low down on the priorities of the electorate, rarely mentioned in surveys and hardly ever an issue that changes voting intentions. This has changed recently because of the Reform party (and the earlier anti EU obsession) with the Tories deciding to up the rhetoric to attract defectors from Reform and Labour playing catch up, also with negative comments about immigration, all amplified by the media.

This has now backfired horribly. All it has done is motivate a minority to engage in violent anti immigrant riots. Many of those people involved are going to get a shock when they are arrested as this is not treated like a punch up on a Saturday night by the courts but as a threat to society - violent disorder/riot/arson. They can expect several years in prison.

It is worth reminding everyone that the '750,000' legal migrants are here to work in areas of the economy where there is a need and have passed the so called points system the Conservatives introduced. So they should be welcomed with open arms, often doing highly skilled jobs where there is a shortage. Illegal migrants who may have risked their life to get here should not be scapegoated. The system for reviewing their cases as refugees has broken down, which is why they're stuck in hotels for months. I don't think that's their fault

This is a very small island we live on. 50 years ago we had a population of 48 million. Currently it stands at 68 million.

In 15 to 20 years it will be around 75 million. We simply don't have the infrastructure for that many people.

Care4Calais "100% of people wanting to get to Britain are escaping persecution"

Nigel Farage "100% of people wanting to get to Britain are economic migrants"

Neither of the above is correct. But that is all we ever get. Neither will admit there is a mix.

750,000 are here to do jobs where there is a need - because the English already here are either too lazy or not educated enough to do those jobs.

And while I do think there is an issue to be solved (afterall, if you were in France, wouldn't you want to risk your life to escape?), the rioting in the last 7 days means that nothing will be done because it will be in reaction to the "concerns of the rioters" and so they will in effect have won.

Can we now get back to the football and Everton??

Oh and glad this match is behind closed doors because we don't want a pile of Scots coming to England 😉

Thanks for the reply about your solution Paul.
Can you please just expand on that and tell us in practical terms how that can be realistically achieved.
Thanks ( otherwise they're just words that don't mean much)

Just words?. No it's a simple solution. My mate managed to do it when he went Australia. I've never gone living in another country so I don't know how you go about it. But if I was going to another country I'd make damn sure I had all that sorted first.

Paul#62.
Nothing wrong with that at all, IMHO. If Australia manage to do it then you'd think the UK could too.
What IS wrong is another poster expecting YOU to explain how it can be achieved or you post "doesn't mean much."
Talk about.
Pomposity at it's finest.

Paul #69, I've worked in about 14 different locations around the Middle East and Asia and in my experience going to another country to work entails having a contract of work and obtaining a work related visa to be able to enter the country.

Then you get a work permit, tax ID and NI number, along with jumping through other administrative hoops like police registration.

And when your job is finished your visa is cancelled and you have to leave.

I did move to one country to retire and to do that I have to have money in the bank and renew my visa (and monetary commitment) every year.

Another country I went to retire in I didn't really need much, I was visa exempt being married to a local and was able to get a 3 year residence permit, which after the 3 years is up can become a 10 year residence permit.

Extreme views whether right or left are never good options. Somebody commented that he didn't mind immigrants as long as they work, problem is until their cases are settled one way or another they are not allowed to have gainful employment. Immigration is a problem for most of the western world, and if there was a simple solution to it then we wouldn't have a problem. While there has always been economic migrants and not people escaping persecution, the vast majority are coming from war torn countries, which also includes Ukraine. I would just add that the figures show that more immigrants go to other European countries than the UK, and many who crossed the channel were granted asylum even under the Conservative government before they decided everybody crossing the channel in a small boat was automatically an illegal immigrant.

Paul..

Just for you.

Seeking asylum in Australia, or elsewhere, is not illegal. In fact, it is a basic human right.

All people are entitled to protection of their human rights, including the right to seek asylum, regardless of how or where they arrive in Australia, or in any other country.

Stephen #73,

Is that the Australia that was famed for using the military to forcibly turn around boats coming from Flores and East Timor?

So we just have open borders.

Let everyone in.

Everybody in state-sponsored accommodation is here legally.

Over 70% of applications for asylum are successful.

Successful asylum applicants are not allowed to work for 2 years. Yes, we're effectively teaching them to not work and/or work illegally.

There's a big difference between me staying in a Holiday Inn Express for a couple of nights on business with an all-you-can-eat fry-up and money to spend, and me staying in the same room with my family indefinitely with a tiny allowance and poor quality food.

If you're desperate to focus on 'illegles', check out your car wash, nail parlours, brothels, etc.

Go and talk to people who are 'different' to you. Listen to them, laugh with them. You'll have more in common than you think. They'll seem less like 'them' and more like 'us'.

If I can do this, surely every other adult can?

Phil @66, nails it for me with his third paragraph.

If I was a politician like Starmer, I could use the two sporting disasters that have been mentioned on this thread and continue to browbeat that they were both 100% down to the ineptitude of the police.

This wouldn't quite be true because there were obviously other mitigating circumstances, (especially regarding Heysel) but if I had the press on my side, I could definitely make most people believe that it was definitely down to the police.

I agree with Andy, and thanks Mark, for giving me the title of a book I will be sure to read, although I will be very surprised if the greedy politicians across Europe are not at the forefront of the reason for this current crisis.

Don't reply, Mark, let me find out for myself!!

Tony (77),

Are you sure that you will read the book that Mark mentioned? I'm still waiting for the book, which wasn't mine, that I leant you 6 months ago, you keep saying “Oh yeh I'm starting that soon.”

Ffs get off ToffeeWeb for a week and read the bleedin' book, Mein Kampf and the Bible, as well as the Beano Annual I got for you last Christmas!

Stephen,

To seek asylum in Australia, you have to arrive legally, by plane with a visa. On doing so, you can therefore apply for asylum.

If you attempt to arrive by boat, you are classed as not arriving legally and you are then shipped to Naru. If you arrive by boat or attempt to, you will never be allowed to settle in Australia and could spend years on Naru in detention camps.

In short, Australia adopts a highly selective approach to asylum seekers and does not allow all asylum seekers security.

The Conservative party policy of turning boats back, wanting to send them to Rwanda and making a determination of what is a "legal" or "illegal" asylum seeker, is almost a carbon copy of the Australian playbook:

How Australia wrote the 'stop the boats' playbook

Even the Royal Navy said No to turning boats back...

I'm amazed more people are not up in arms about this level of immigration. Not blaming the people coming here, but our ratlike politicians for their astonishing broken promises. Not only will we not keep immigration to tens of thousands a year, how does a million a year grab you? Have it!

Of course people are just people, but the sheer scale of it means we turn cities like Liverpool into cities like London. I grew up with everyone very proud of being a scouser, and what that meant. You can't have that though if you turn your country into a melting pot. It's just a blob then of different nationalities. Why would anyone be in favour of that.

The sad thing for us humble voters, is that the polls are in the pay of the super rich globalists, who all want open borders and weakened governments. So we are going to get mass immigration hot and strong whether we want it or not. Both parties are utterly compromised, bought off, whatever.

Kevin,

I'm very proud of being a Scouser. Nobody's taken that away from me. Immigrants haven't taken anything away from me.

What have they taken away from you?

Kevin, where you think the scousers descend from? 75% of the City's population have Irish ancestry. The City also proudly has the oldest Chinese community outside mainland China. The City was a hub of worldwide trade and people have always settled here. That makes most Scousers descendants of immigrants. Why are you wanting to pull up the drawbridge or is it a particular type of immigrant you object to?

Paul and Chris.

It's all about scale. We are currently inviting in over a million people a year. It is total madness.

You could have had a conversation with a proud cockney 50 years ago, who said he was worried about immigration. And you would have told him, "You have nothing to fear, they are just people."

But look at London now, and where are the cockneys?

What do they take away from you, Kevin?

It's a genuine question. I'm doing this engaging thing that apparently nobody does. I'm doing it.

What do they take away from you?

They take away my city. My identity.

If I was a cockney 50 years ago, I would look around now and say the city I grew up in has ceased to exist. It's not just the buildings, it's the shared culture.

Stephen, we can't wave a magic wand to return things to how they used to be. But we can turn off the taps. We can return immigration to tens of thousands. Of course we can do that.

Politicians like to tell people "That's very complex, international obligations, human rights" etc. It's all hogwash. We limit the number of immigrants and asylum seekers, and don't allow anyone in who comes to the country illegally.

Paul, I have a Scouser cover on my passport. Always confuses immigration.. in the US they pulled it off and virtually threw it at me!

The elephant in the room is quota... what are sustainable levels to be able to assimilate into any country before it's unsustainable economically or socially? What's manageable and what's not?

These are the questions for politicians to address. Just building a detention camp in Rwanda or re-categorizing asylum seekers as illegal isn't a solution no matter how attractive to some.

What makes the UK more attractive than an EU country? Wasn't immigration the linchpin of Brexit? Just what did people expect? Pillboxes on the beaches?

Wars, pestilence, poverty... we aren't going to find the answer on ToffeeWeb, I'm afraid.

Tell me more, Kevin.

When I go back to Liverpool, I see mainly white faces, hear mainly Scouse accents. The big changes appear to be swankier hotels, shops and restaurants.

None of my family and friends feel less Scouse. What's different about the day-to-day experience these days?

Paul, Kevin - I've lived in Liverpool, and I've lived in London. Right now, London is one of the most diverse cities in the world, Liverpool very much not so. I enjoy the diversity of London, but I'm not going to pretend it hasn't changed the place. When I come back to Liverpool, the first thing I notice is the unity of the community, an understanding and empathy with your neighbour based on history and culture that you simply don't find in a place like London, with its ethnic and class ghettos.

So, no, immigrants have taken nothing away from Kevin. But, in London, the old "cockney" identifiying white English working class has completely disappeared. If Liverpool became like London, where over half the babies born are born to non-English mothers, then it would be a very different place to what it is now. You might like that - in the same way that I like London, and find Liverpool a bit mono-cultural these days - but you can't pretend that mass immigration might not eventually change Liverpool in the way that it has changed London.

You can't have everything; if you want Liverpool to continue to be this Scouse quasi-nation of people with a shared history and culture, then you might not like the levels of immigration we have right now. But if you would prefer Liverpool to become much more diverse, like London, with people rubbing along together but being also focused on their sub-culture, or personal ethnic grouping, then immigration is going to be fine for you. You'll know you're there when you get on the bus and realise you don't understand the language that most of the passengers are speaking. Like I say, I enjoy it, but then I'm a white middle class high earner living in a white middle class part of London, so I'm not competing for resources with most of the new arrivals. I might feel differently if I was living in a deprived area, with crap schools and not enough GPs.

The ideal would be to find away of integrating all these new Britons, but with 750,000 a year coming in, it's going to be incredibly difficult.

Paul, I like that 'tell me more, Kevin', as if I'm gently paranoid and need to be calmly explained the reality of the situation.

Perhaps you could have had a conversation with Dirty Den from Eastenders in 1985, and calmly told him he was being just a little bit xenophobic with his fears about immigration. Would you have told him "Nobody is changing London, I still see white faces, you are getting carried away over nothing"? And maybe he would have taken your point. But not now.

if we continue as we are, then the Londonification of Liverpool is an inevitability. And yes, I feel as if Liverpool is my city, that it is part of who I am. How many cockneys can say that today about London?

Christine, when I was an Immigration Officer in the late 1980s, I'd often ask people why they were coming here to work illegally rather than, say Germany, which had a much stronger economy at the time. The answer I got was one or more of the language, relatives/ friends here and (don't laugh) Britain's high moral standing, sense of fair play, etc.

The issue is whether people are contributing. It's hard to contribute when you're waiting in limbo and effectively being taught not to work.

It won't be sorted on ToffeeWeb, but the more decent, civilised conversations we have about it, the less chance we'll see more of this violence on the English streets.

I have not read all the various posts, but some of the ones I have read reminded me of the time over 50 years ago when I first started to attend Everton matches in London.

I was born in London to Indian and South African parents (so I was told). I was therefore, rather apprehensive about going to watch Everton, as I was under the impression that Everton was a ‘racist' club (and by definition, its supporters) and that Scousers hated Cockneys.

Nothing could have been further from the truth, as I was treated with the utmost kindness. If I had the time, I would write an article about all my experiences. These included being invited to stay with on numerous occasions in North Wales, Ellesmere Port and Liverpool, Andy Nichols including a lovely bit about me in his book (Scally) and my Evertonian dentist providing me with private treatment on the NHS.

If one occasion could sum up my experiences, it would be the occasion when Chris from Ellesmere Port asked me if I wanted to come up and stay for the weekend, but that he would have to ask his Dad first. He went home and asked Big John if his mate from London could come up and stay.

Big John had no problem with this, but said, "But I thought you hated Cockneys?" Chris replied, "I do, but Jimmy's different as he supports the Blues."

Kevin, I used those words because I genuinely want to know more. No suggestion of paranoia on my part.

I didn't meet Dirty Den when I moved to Inner London in 1988, I lived in a multi-cultural place where people generally got on with life, and with each other. I had plenty of conversations with people back home who told me London was unfriendly (it wasn't) and 'full of foreigners' (it wasn't).

Everytime I go back to places where I used to live, things have changed, some good, some less so. But I've never identified anything that stops me being me, or stops me going about my business.

Paul, yes, fair enough. I think people generally do just get on with it. Is it not though one of the joys of life when a culture, a strong group identity is present. The people support the group, and the group supports its people.

A strong group can say No to open borders and multinationals trampling over the little guy.

My view is that we are approaching a tipping point; if we don't put on the brakes, our group identity will be lost, and our ability to resist these corporations that are ruining our country.

Look at London now, is that in any way capable of developing a group identity? No way, it's full of factions, and ghettoes. And so is able to be controlled as a result.

Michael & Kevin, you're right. Lots of people will have left London because of demographic changes. Some will have left because of the sheer cost of living there (main reason we left after 11 years).

Kevin, I'm asking these questions because I'm genuinely interested. I haven't lived in Liverpool since the early 1980s. Everywhere I've lived, I've encountered people who have feelings about 'others'. It baffles me and I'm curious about what's behind it. It pisses me off when I try and engage with people and they start making incorrect assumptions about what I think.

Whatever everyone's views on this, I hope all this trouble stops.

Paul

Really? 'fear of the other' is part of our genetic make-up surely. But even if it wasn't an instinctive thing, I think a lot of people react negatively towards 'change' — whatever that change is.

Conserving a way of life that you've grown up with, I think we are hardwired to do this. And I think it is perfectly natural. I do though see what you mean, when you encounter the negatives surrounding that.

If outsiders are treated badly because they are outside the group, that ain't great. I agree with Michael's comment above, it's about finding the happy medium, whereby newcomers are absorbed into the group in a way that is beneficial to all.

Here is an example of the strong group identity Kevin seeks:

BMW set upon and Eastern European men inside attacked — how violence surged in one city

I also fondly remember him saying he wouldn't be comfortable if his daughter going out with a black or brown man.

Kevin, that's very true. I loved being part of ESCLA when I lived in London and the South. And it was great fun in the quiz league when we competed against and got pissed with the other supporters clubs.

But I also loved all the proper Irish bars and all the other restaurants. And, for disclosure, I met my Dutch wife there, which probably influences my view on these things more than I think.

We moved from London to Kendal during the 2002 World Cup. Looking at all the England flags in almost every house, my wife said we were really moving to England now!

But I still get that buzz when the train pulls into Lime Street and I hear proper accents again. Still feels like my city despite the changes.

Steve,

Can you provide any proof that I'm a racist?

If you Google my name and the sentence you think I said, it should come up. Please post it up.

Paul - that made me laugh. I often refer to anywhere outside London as "England".

And I get double the buzz - I get it when the train pulls into Lime Street, and I get it when the train pulls into Euston. Both great cities, in different ways, and both unlike anywhere else in this country.

Paul, yes, I've also lived away from the city for many years.

Nothing like arriving back in Lime Street though.

Kevin #97,

I'd say it's more a conditioning thing these days, though it's very natural when there's a bit of conflict. And my work shows me how people don't like change, especially when it feels imposed and unexplained.

And of course, things are better when we all feel like we fit in, at least a bit!

Paul (96),

I have enjoyed reading your posts and lots of other posts on this subject. I think most of us want all this trouble to stop and get back to living in peace, if that was ever the case —unfortunately it won't, it will get worse with each passing year.

I truly hope I am wrong but fear that I'm right.

Some facts:

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates that 1.2 million people migrated into the UK in 2023, while 532,000 people emigrated, resulting in a net migration figure of 685,000.

Indians were the largest group of immigrants to the UK in 2023, with 250,000 arrivals. This group included 127,000 people who came for work, 115,000 for study, and 9,000 for other reasons.

The number of people crossing the Channel in small boats decreased in 2023, with 29,437 people detected arriving compared to 45,774 in 2022. 59% of small boat arrivals in 2023 were from five nationalities: Afghan (19%), Iranian (12%), Turkish (10%), Eritrean (9%), and Iraqi (9%).

Hardly the “swarm” that the right-wing press claim, and yes, they use that word.

Immigration in the last few years also includes Brits returning from EU countries since Brexit and Hong Kong Brits.

The UK admits less asylum seekers than most of the major European economies.

Cheers Dave #96. People live in peace when enough of them want to.

Yes Michael #101, two brilliant, incomparable cities in their own way!

Mark, the drop in 2023 was almost entirely accountable to a massive reduction in the number of Albanians crossing in boats. Not sure if that's because of measures taken by both Governments, or other reasons.

As we are on statistics though, the numbers in the first half of 2024 are 16% up on the numbers in the first half of 2023.

Whether or not its a "swarm" is subjective, and maybe depends on where you live - for example, the Albanians have mostly settled in a few areas of London, changing the vibe in those places fairly noticably. I don't live in those areas, so I can't comment, except to say that I'm very aware of the demographic change when I visit them or pass through. Again, some might like it, some might feel aggrieved at the pace of change in their neighbourhood.

Thanks for the reply Kevin..we may be slowly getting somewhere, that's why reasoned intelligent debate is essential to seek a viable solution. Screaming Swarms, Invasion, losing our identity doesn't solve anything ( I'm talking generally now and not about you).
Yes there is no magic wand...there's also no official safe routes from anyone claiming Asylum/Refugee status unless youre Ukrainian.
That could at least be a start in attempting to control entry making all other entry methods illegal.
Just one thing...who or what allows people to come to this country illegally?
Thanks

Michael, you are correct about the reduced numbers of Albanians. This IS due to government measures (not widely reported by the media for some reason - maybe it doesn't suit the narrative?)
There is a return by flight agreement with the Albanian government that allows the UK to “send em back”.

Stephen
as Mark helpfully confirmed above, there were 1.2 million entrants to the UK last year. That's what, three cities the size of Liverpool. In one year. This is some seven years after we 'took back control' through Brexit. If people are getting hot under the collar, I think that is because the politicians are studiously ignoring the wishes of their voters.
I would say 'the government' allows people to come here illegally when they let people who come here illegally stay.

A lot of the frustrations and anger come from an individuals perception and personal impact. Someone who's struggling to get by and needs support but doesn't receive it for whatever reason will look to those that do and wonder why. Others might have lost their job or have an imbalanced income compared with others and that can spark resentment.

The flip side is the loss of resources within key organisational structures e.g. NHS and GP's due to Brexit or other immigration changes. Even Corporations and services have felt the impact.

Perception is an individuals reality and not everyone experiences the same effect or impacts.

I don't support the riots or protests in anyway but neither have I directly been impacted by some of the significant events, including those in Stockport.

World peace is an aspiration and something holistic to strive for. I don't think for one second it can ever be a reality as race, religion, desire and politics seem to divide even at the highest level, let alone the man on the street. Russian wanting Ukraine back because it's their place of origin is a good example of how things can escalate quickly without external drivers.

We still see racism on the football pitch yet so many players are of differing nationality. It's a tough nut to crack.

Currently living and working on the fringe of ‘London', hope to be back living and working in North West in not too distant future. If I had better work/life balance probably wouldn't have that insistent hankering.

Lived in Southport years ago probably less than half a mile from last weeks awful tragedy. Instantly identified the typical High Park street-style, and then later when they showed those gathering to grieve or gawp I immediately thought “there is going to be real trouble over this”.

I'm not a Southport native but I don't mind the place. It's definitely not a twee little coastal village though. It always had seedy parts with overly defensive ‘local' ideals, and those places are ripe for the politics of envy / distrust of the ‘different'. Had a large Eastern European influx when I lived there but I'll bet those weren't targets for the protesters.

There are only supposed to be 2 ‘instinctive' fears, fear of the dark and fear of heights. Fear of the other, what nonsense. Kids don't even know what ‘other' is until it's taught to them.

It may be more instinctive to seek the safety of numbers, which gives us blinkered tribalism and mob mentality at its worst, but to wholly trust what ‘looks' like you / distrust anything ‘different' is just dumb and humanity (if it had survived at all) would still be living in a small region of Africa and be pretty much identical.

Similarly, there is no such thing as a shortage of housing in this country necessitating building on the green belt. Instead, what we have is a shortage of truly affordable housing and perversely uneven socio-economic standards driving a constant urge to move somewhere ‘better'.

The housing situation will never be resolved whilst a small minority continue to milk the enormous cash cow it has become.

Asylum seekers are different to both legal and illegal economic migrants. Asylum seekers and legal migrants (the vast majority of immigrants) should be welcomed with open arms. We have an ageing population / falling birth rate and we need a certain percentage (that is a proportion not a set amount) of the population to keep the economy going and ultimately support the wealth of the country.

Hope the nutters currently ‘protesting' get back under their stones quickly and stop disrupting other people's lives, so that people can enjoy their desperately needed distractions such as the thrill of competitive sport.

Life will never be risk / hazard free but it needn't be dominated by idiots overreacting to tragic events.

Well said Si
Perhaps that's a reasonable note to leave it on and get back to Footy matters now?
UTFT

“I think that is because the politicians are studiously ignoring the wishes of their voters.”
Come on then Kevin, prove you are not a ‘swivel-eyed loony' and explain what you think their ‘agenda' is?
What on earth do you think all of these politicians are getting from permitting ‘alarming' mass immigration???
I'm glad that at times the politicians can see the real world and not just the imaginary realms of the ill-informed.

Sorry Mark, had to respond to Politics 101 as taught by Kevin!

what are they getting Si? the politicians?
well, at the top of the tree, politicians like Cameron Clegg and Blair, in keeping billionaires happy they are themselves becoming intensely wealthy. Blair, who kicked off the mass migration agenda a generation ago, is now worth hundreds of millions. That's right, hundreds of millions. But it's more complex than just 'what are they getting'. It's now incredibly difficult to make your way as a politician if you are not signed up for the DEI progressive globalist agenda whichever party you join. Cameron packed the tory party with these soldiers a decade ago, and so they don't even need to be offered. anything, it's what they believe. And so we're getting it, whether we want it or not, hot and strong.

Kevin, wow! So the politicians you name to support your assertion that they are apparently deliberately ignoring the wishes of their voters are all ‘retired' and made very wealthy from things that have zilch to do with mass immigration!

I wanted to know what ‘agenda' they all share, not what politicians of all types across the globe can benefit from when they leave office.

That response is so utterly ‘conspiracy theory' driven I have only two more questions. Are you aka as Jay Wood(s) LATVIA? Where is your ‘compound' sited?

Wow indeed Si. Hundreds of millions But sure, it wasn't cos he kept the right people happy, it's just a coincidence he did everything they wanted, and afterwards made stacks and stacks of cash.

Kevin...I'm not getting hot under the collar at all..I'm calm and just searching for answers...but calling people who come to the UK claiming Asylum illegals is not going to move this issue on... Claiming Asylum in a country that's signed up to the Convention is perfectly legal and can enter & remain in the UK until the process decision determines otherwise.. illegal migrants are deported.
Even Australia recognises Asylum seekers/ refugees.
As I mentioned in my original post...this requires an International response not a unilateral one...let's move it on a little...let's go with your immigration cap... what happens in your scenario when that cap is exceeded...are you suggesting that they be returned to where they exited from?

"Research has found that 46% of British Muslims sympathise with Hamas and 32% want Sharia law enforced in the UK."

"If current levels of migration were allowed to continue, a child born today to an indigenous British couple would be in a minority in the country of his or her parents by the time they reached their forties."

Migration Watch UK 22nd May 2024

Liverpool is “definitely” becoming, what is being termed Londonised, on this thread, and it is happening very quickly.

White middle, and even working class Londoners, moved out, and left the city behind, and I can see it happening when I drive around Liverpool, especially now that it is summer and the nights are longer.

I was genuinely taken aback whilst driving along county rd the other Saturday around 5 PM, because a road that is usually full of Everton fans, around this time, whilst being nowhere near as busy, was mostly full of foreign faces.

This happened on the same day, a kid from Australia, told me that in all the places he had lived in England, he liked the honesty and lunacy of the people around county rd, the most, before adding that he was worried because he thought the area was beginning to lose its Scouse identity.

Live and let live, is a philosophy that has stood me well down the years, but not everyone has this view, especially with the speed of the changes that are definitely happening right now, but I'm not sure Starmer wants to listen.

Tony, what's a ‘foreign face'?

I think it means the face of a foreigner Chris.

Kevin, still none the wiser. Is it possible to spot an Australian face, a French face, an American face simply by driving down County Road at 5pm?

is it possible to spot a foreign face in Peking? or Moscow? For a region with the demographics of Liverpool and DEFIINITELY Walton, I would suggest 'yes'.

I can spot an Australian a mile off. It's the mullet. With the French, it's the onions around their neck, and with the Yanks it's the horse they're riding.

Kev, If the late great Kevin Campbell or Dominic Calvert Lewin were not famous and were walking down County Road what would their faces be classed as under this sophisticated facial recognition system?

What about Seamus Coleman or Kevin Sheedy, what category would their faces fall under? Foreign or non-foreign?

A good game to kill time, whilst waiting at the airport is "guess the nationality". We have become quite good at it.

My mother in law (Swedish) said that I could only be British/Irish by the way I look. It's not offensive, just an observation (whitest body on the beach is a giveaway).

it's all about context Chris. If I am a resident of Walton, and I am driving along, and I see huge groups of people I've never seen before who are foreign looking, is it reasonable of me to assume they are foreigners? or must I pull myself up, and say 'steady, this new crowd of people could all have been born in Norris Green'.

Chris #82, being honorary Chinese I was startled and delighted to read your post. Can you tell me more? How far back does the Chinese community in Liverpool go?

Vietnamese, Chinese, Turkish, Kurds, Albanians, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Polish, are what I would call a foreign face, and a shop that they own, might be called the little Polish shop, as an example, Chris.

County road is now as diverse as any other road in our city, except Lodge Lane, and where most of the shops once belonged to English people, most of them are now occupated by foreign migrants.

I hope you are a bit wiser after I have explained myself a bit clearer Chris, even if I think I understand where you are trying to go with this.

It's not easy trying to explain things to educated people who feign ignorance, but I suppose it was my own fault for choosing to use words, than can be got at snidely, even though I was just trying to explain how diverse County rd has become.

You can't have that though if you turn your country into a melting pot. It's just a blob then of different nationalities. Why would anyone be in favour of that.

Kevin #80, because it enriches the host nation societally and culturally. Different nationalities bring their different ideas and traditions to society. Immigrants add new and exciting foods to our cuisine, new music to our experience, new words to the language, new art and literature to the culture. And they bring enthusiasm for being in a place with rich opportunity.

And in my country at least, they provide essential support to the economy. They do jobs that native-born Americans simply won't. Agriculture, home construction, the restaurant industry and hospitality would literally founder without immigrants. And these newcomers start up new businesses at a significantly higher rate than native-born Americans.

THAT'S why anyone would be in favour of a melting pot.

Also, you're certainly entitled to your conspiracy theories, but "super rich globalists" is code for Jews, and the use of the term betrays antisemitism. You probably don't consider yourself antisemitic, but any Jews in earshot when you say that will instantly put you in that category.

Mike#147.

You do have a lot more room than we do.

Some are so easily swayed by the mainstream media ‘those in the know'.

Immigration tends to enhance most (if not all) aspects of the host country

Besides, who gets to decide which ‘natives' of a country are acceptable or not? We're all immigrants here at some point

Some of the comments are completely without genuine introspection or deep thought.

Mike Gaynes.. Liverpools Chinatown is the oldest outside of London in Europe. It has shrunken in size, compared to, say, Manchester.
You may have read of the disgraceful way that Chinese and other oriental seafarers were treated after WW 11. Served the UK on warships, usually below decks, and then after the war they were unceremoniously deported. And, so I father, their British born wives were deprived of pensions and benefits.
Britannia waves the rules !

Mike
yes, I've seen the effect I only need to visit London. And I'm not saying it's all negative. I just don't want the London effect transferred to Liverpool and the rest of the country. I want to preserve the existing culture. That does not rule out immigration, it just means it needs to be slowed down to the way we used to have it.
If you can think of a better expression for the Bill Gates Elon Musk's and Jeff Bezos's of this world, I am happy to use that one rather than 'globalist'.. 'Billionaire class' perhaps?

Mike Gaynes, yes, oldest black community in the UK (1700s) and oldest Chinese community in the UK (1800s).

I'm not sure about the London comments. There are millions of cockneys in Greater London. Although multi-cultural, London has a population of 9 million, more than Scotland and Wales combined.

A couple of seasons ago, we met at the Spoons near the infamous Blind Beggar. We sat amongst West Ham supporters. No doubting their "cockney-ness".

Anyway, back to Everton. Looks like we put a strong team out. On to Roma before the real business starts.

Apologies for my appalling English...Britannia WAIVES the rules

Mike Gaynes,
Just enter “Liverpool Chinese Community “ in Google. Some good information there.

Danny, those "cockneys" will have all come in from Essex mate!

And, interestingly, since you have to be born within the sound of the Bow Bells to be considered a cockney, that does actually mean that the majority of cockneys babies now are Muslim. So I suppose there are plenty of cockneys, but they look a bit different to how they did when I first moved down here!

Mike #147 there is a sign at Ellis Island which reads : “I came to America because I heard the streets were paved with gold. When I got here, found out three things: First, the streets weren't paved with gold; second, they weren't paved at all: and third, I was expected to pave them.” Think this sums up immigrants all over the world. The vast majority of them work their hardest to better themselves in whatever country they end up in.

I would have thought a very substantial proportion of people on this site would qualify, through the grand-parent rule at least (though not ability), to play for a national team other than England. I certainly do (Rep of Ireland).

It's not that long ago that there was a lot of anti-Irish immigration feeling in the UK - but that seems to have eased off entirely.

I also expect a good many of the people who regularly contribute to this site feel pretty demoralised and uncomfortable at this thread because they will fall (more obviously than I do) into the "foreign" category that seems to be more out of favour.

That would include a lot of the local players too of recent years which seems a sad state of affairs - Dobbin, Cadamerteri, Anichebe, Barkley, Rodwell - and Browning who, I think, ended up playing for China. How do they compare to Lukjanciks - the England u16 goalie on our books whose parents are from one of the Baltic states?

It's by no means a straightforward issue this - but it's driven by economics, the labour market and labour costs. It's nothing new. I was randomly reading a memoir about a guy from Togo who always wanted to go to the Arctic - and travelled around West Africa en route. He faced an anti-immigrant backlash in adjacent Benin for stealing local jobs.

Sadly no politicians will admit we do actually need inward immigration to deliver certain jobs, services and prop up an aging population (although I did hear Nadine Dorries come close recently). Instead they lie and stir up a lot of hatred with false promises.

Robert, I don't think the discussion is really about whether we need inward migration, it is about the effect that it is having on the country. I don't mean good/bad effect, that's for each person to decide for themselves, but I don't think we can pretend that the immigration we are seeing now is not very different in scale to previous movements of people, and that it isn't having a much bigger effect on the country than previous waves of migration..

As an example, there was a high profile wave of Jewish immigration from the late 19th century to the second World War, but there are still only 250,000 Jews in the whole of the UK, over a century later. Islamic migration from around the world only really got going in the 1960s, but there are already around 4 million in the UK now. The number of Nigerians in the UK is around 180,000 - double what it was a decade or so ago. I've absolutely nothing against Nigerians, quite the opposite in fact, but I'm just pointing out that you can't compare modern migration patterns with the old ones.

The debate shouldn't be immigration good/immigration bad - that's just too reductive. The discussion needs to be about how this large scale immigration shapes our society, and how we can make it work. And that needs to include discussions about why we have so many economically inactive people, which leads to this need for mass immigration to do the jobs the existing population can't/won't do.

What pisses me off is when people use individual incidents to "prove" their case about whether immigration is good/bad. So, on the one hand you get a racist tweeting a picture five Muslim men who have been convicted for raping children, thinking it proves immigration is bad, and on the other hand you get Dianne Abbott tweeting a picture of the five black and mixed race England players who scored penalties in the Euros, thinking it proves immigration is good. The reality is, it just proves that the tweeter is taking a generalised position based on two extreme examples of human activity. We learn nothing from it.

I wouldn't say that Michael. Plenty of them them where I live. And regardless of colour, I have many friends of 2nd generation Indian decent who speak with perfect London accents.

Robert, still UK, but I would have qualified for Northern Ireland. I couldn't have done for the Republic as the family roots that side where too far removed.

As we are at it, what defines a Scouser?

For context, Sky Brown has just won bronze medal at Paris 24. Her dad is British her mum Japanese and spent virtually no time living in this country.
She is quite proud of representing this country though

Danny, someone who is born outside the St Helens border
Xxx

“but there are still only 250,000 Jews in the whole of the UK,”
Seriously?? That sounds a ridiculously low figure???

Kevin Molloy, I've lived in London for all of my 43 years and I'm not sure I've seen this lack of identity or community that you're talking about.

I live in Hackney currently which has a very multi-cultural feel but there is a tremendous sense of community both as a borough and as a city. On our street alone we have Caribbean, Irish, Indian, German, Scottish and Ghanaian families who all get along and enjoy a street party every year.

Of course there are sub-cultures and smaller communities within the larger ones; demographics shift and flow but I've not experienced or heard people talking about this fracturing and division that you are implying.

I'm sure there are those less happy with these shifts but I'd say those voices are very much the minority in London. Conversations about unemployment, welfare capacities, human trafficking etc is a different thing but people talking about loss of identity and fracturing society feel a touch Enoch Powell to me, no offence.

Definition of scouseness - friendly and welcoming to everybody but does not suffer fools gladly.

Now can we leave solving the problems of the world to those who we voted for and get back to little old Everton.

Sam
that area you are referring to, it used to be the home of the cockney. It's now not. It may well be an enjoyable place to live, being quite affluent and in a central London location. But one thing it is not is cockney. Now, melting pots are good and bad, they are what they are. I am referring to English culture, I have great affection for it, I wish to preserve it. If we continue with the current rates of immigration, that culture will inevitably cease to be. Just as what happened to the Cockneys in Hackney. What you seem to be arguing in favour of, is letting things just take their course. In which case, at the current rate of knots, English culture dies out. I'm not in favour of that. And I don't know why we can't resist the 'billionaire class' and tell their bought politicians to go to hell, and take back control of our borders, and instigate an immigration policy that isn't wildly insane.

Danny 163 - As we are at it, what defines a Scouser? - depends whether you are talking about a North Ender or a South Ender. 😁

Kevin, there are definitely still lots of cockneys here. Lots of people who have lived here since the 70s and before.

Yes, perhaps there are those who've had to move out but that is probably more to do with capitalism and rising house prices than immigration.

I strongly disagree that English culture is under threat in the way you believe. English culture can withstand change and flux. It always has.

This is not me necessarily saying that things should continue as they have. It seems clear that the Tories lost control of immigration policies and spending and that there are improvements to be made. But I do reject this idea that England is under threat from immigration, a peddled narrative designed to create profitable division by those happy to fan the money making flames (including the likes of Elon Musk who well knows that hate drives far more traffic through X and helps drive revenues).

I

I am referring to English culture, I have great affection for it, I wish to preserve it.

What parts of English culture do you want to preserve?

In 1980 I went to college. We did not have brand name coffee coffee shops. Fast food was not there. The local Chippy was run by chinese. Chicken curry half n half The corner shop was Indian.
so what part do you want to keep

Mark, you are a massive Evertonian. It doesn't matter where people live or come from. I am just curious with the cockney quotes how people define a scouser.

St Helens is in the Liverpool City Region. One of us.

See you at the next one.

If you think immigration is the problem then the idiot politicians have won (Braverman, Patel, Farage, Anderson etc)

There's many issues with the country and many improvements that could be made. However, there's enough money to have provided high quality housing, medical care, schools etc for everyone. It was the politicians who benefitted from vote Leave, the politicians who crashed the economy in 2008 and the politicians (and their mates) that stole millions & billions during Covid with the useless PPE, VIP lanes and fraudulent furlough claims (that haven't been followed up)

I honestly think that blaming immigration is idiotic and let's those responsible off the hook. It's potentially a problem BUT relative to all the other problems in the country, it's super bizarre to focus on that.

If one created a list of issues in the country immigration should be around no.12. Yet somehow we focus disproportionate attention on it and almost ignore issues 1-11 and 13-20 etc

Proper integration policies could have been created. Proper enforcement of regulated numbers could have been created. So much could have been done but it hasn't and it's been a mixture of deliberate/negligence.

It's those in charge that deserve our ire

Sam, I'd love to meet all these old school cockneys that you talk about. I spend a fair amount of time in Hackney and it always feels to me that most of the white English people living there these days are young and affluent, probably working in the media, often privately educated, and rarely have any family connection to the area. Broadway Market on a Friday night is yuppie central - cocktail quaffing techies and marketing execs who work in Shoreditch and swim in London Fields lido on a Saturday morning. My main concern is that I'm going to get knocked down by a lycra-clad maniac cycling to work in an ad agency, desperate to get there in time for the dog yoga session.

I mean, it's diverse and wonderful, but it's not exactly teaming with white working class cockneys these days.

Well Liam, with my family coming from Garston and moving to Speke and then having lived in Woolton, I'm a south ender.

Until I moved away, it never struck me how there is an accent shift between the north of the city and the south.

I live in a cul de sac, Danny, so I suppose that means I'm a dead ender!

Ben, agree with the sentiment of your post. In fairness, just to note that Pritti Patel yesterday criticised Farage for likening the week's racist riots to Black Lives Matter protests.

Michael @422, no doubt there are lots of those yuppie types around (myself probably being one of them!) and these are probably the ones you'll see out and about. But my kids go to the schools/dentists/libraries/parks etc and this is where you'll rub shoulders with the families who have been there for generations.

As I said lots have moved out due to house prices etc but there are lots still there and for the most part everyone seems to rub along pretty well.

The difference between a South Ender and a North Ender is the quality of the trainees, Danny.

Not saying which is which.

Immigration is a weird thing for people of these islands to complain about — we are constructs of immigration: Romans, Angles, Jutes, Vikings, Normans, Irish, Huguenots, Jews, West Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Italians… the list is never-ending.

The world's leading nation, the US, is built entirely on immigrants — it seems a positive not negative thing to me. But I guess it's how you deal with them that is the issue.

On the scouse v wool theme (Danny, you know it's tongue in cheek on my part mate, I quite like some scousers as it goes)
I'm over my unhealthy obsession with Jodie Comer (“Thank fuck!" Mrs Murphy) but I'm now in love with “pie eater” Keely Hodgkinson.

Btw, she's got the poshest Wigan accent I've ever heard.
“Posh Wiganer” = Oxymoron??

Anyway, she's gorgeous, isn't she??

Do you mean Trainers Liam??

I'm over my unhealthy obsession with Jodie Comer…

Such a shame, Mark. I know her dad and maybe could have fixed you up! 😁😁

It is easy Barry, you make them feel like one of us. Problem solved.

Rob, I'm fickle.
Let me watch “Killing Eve” again and I'll get back to you!
X

Mark, never mind Keely Hodgkinson, it's the Nielson twins for me - and, since we're discussing it, a more perfect example of the joys of diversity you won't find.

Half Egyptian/Sudanese and half Danish, but 100% east London, they're amazing. Olympic athletes despite both having MS, and fit as anything too.

Danny, on a serious note mate, how are you?

Barry - "Immigration is a weird thing for people of these islands to complain about we are constructs of immigration - Romans, Angles, Jutes, Vikings, Normans, Irish, Huguenots, Jews, West Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Italians the list is never ending."

I'm trying not to go down this rabbit hole but that is an incredibly silly and inaccurate thing to say.

The modern English (of which I am not one) is an ethnic group that is genetically very close to their Celtic ancestors, despite multiple invasions from Angles, Jutes, Saxons and the like.

Note that I said invasions, for that is what they were, and seldom achieved without copious amounts of bloodshed - so not a very good choice of comparison at all.

It probably sounded better in your head, unless you meant that the English are 'constructs' of successive waves of invasion/immigration by virtue of them imposing their culture over the natives.

In which case it would also be an awkward comparison to make in these polarising times.

For anyone who's interested, both the skunks and Fulham games, both at home, have been moved to a 5.30pm kick off.

Mark Murphy it's definitely trainees, just as it is lolly-ice and The Asda

Peter 437

Semantics.

Yes, conflict plays an initial part but the ensuing immigration does not.

Or do you think my English cousin moving to France is planning on recreating Agincourt?

Not a well-thought-out post, Peter.

On the contrary, Barry, I think the topic deserves more thought than facile and inaccurate comparisons with history.

With regards to the 'ensuing migration', probably worth pointing out that only relatively recent advances in genetic science enabled us to know just how Celtic the English are, it being long assumed that they had been completely displaced by the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

So that's more of a testament to how utterly their culture was destroyed.

Still, I'm sure they enjoyed all the exotic Germanic cuisine.

Peter @441,

Perhaps you do think it needs more thought but for the general point of people of these islands being a construct of many peoples, ie, immigrants (involving a scrap or otherwise), my point is unassailable.

"Churchill called us the 'mongrel nation'. We are the product of succeeding waves of immigration into this country — it makes us what we are." — Paddy Ashdown.

Lewis Richardson currently looking good for Gold in the boxing.

Very scouse voice in his corner.

Barry, I probably came off as too harsh, it wasn't personal, but my entire point is that genetic studies show that the likes of Paddy Ashdown are talking out of their arse (though it is a cute quotation).

The natives were always here, they never went away and remained incredibly homogenous after the Saxon invasions.

Who do you think you really are? A genetic map of the British Isles

I don't have a massive dog in this fight as I am not a native and my own presence on these islands goes back a mere two generations. For sure other peoples have left their mark but we should stop collectively kidding ourselves that there is no such thing as the English. It is that kind of thinking that contributes to the current mess, if I can be so grandiose.

Peter 444

It sounds like you have a vested interest in genetics… perhaps that's your job — very interesting.

But it doesn't address the point being made.

Whatever the genetics of "English" are the salient point of how we live, what we look like, our customs, practice and language all derive from multiple sources, ie, immigrants.

Sorry, but Winston and Paddy are bob on.

If you go back far enough we are all immigrants from somewhere, until you reach ground zero, we are still trying to find the missing link..
Point being we are flavours of the past, offspring of human desires.
According to 23 and me, I am 100% British, yet recently they clarified that by determining that actually probability is 100% just outside Dublin somewhere in the Wicklow hills.. the Liverpool Irish personified I guess, so what difference does it make? None, can't get an Irish passport on it, but when I go to Dublin it's like looking in a hundred thousand mirrors..
I remember visiting Glasgow and when sitting in a bar (again) trying to understand a group of Glaswegians talking on the table behind me, the accent so strong I struggled badly.. it was only when I went to the bar and on my return noticed that two of those in debate had skin the colour of a blackboard. What I heard and what I saw didn't add up in my little eggshell of a brain, I expected stereotypes but there's no such thing. I laughed at my own stupidity because it wasn't what I imagined.
Last point, the topic has moved between immigration and asylum. They aren't the same. I am an immigrant here in NZ, I was an immigrant in Australia and France, technically when my family moved from Ireland in the 1800s to escape the famine, they were still moving within Britain.. separation as Eire came nearly 100 years later.. bit like living over the water..in Wirral..
Clear as mud isn't it? The politics of division..
It's a human being problem, we struggle with change, seek comfort from familiarity, fight to protect but share with those less fortunate. Good and bad, the struggle.

With forty protests being arranged for tomorrow night, then the far right must be really growing in numbers, or maybe Starmer, is an absolute fool, who should be talking to the public, about what is really concerning them.

Tony. I see those attending these riots as a mix of far right racist bigots, local or travelling in, plus local Scallies whose main interest is having a bit of fun by goading and attacking police and robbing local stores, plus some who might have genuine concerns about immigration.

You have to deal with those different motivations with different responses. No easy task. I'd start by hitting those arrested with the strongest possible sentences, regardless of motivation.

I can't speak for all the protests, but when you see a shower from Coolock heading up to Belfast and standing with a tricolour, side -by-side with Loyalist paramilitaries, then you get the sense that immigration is largely a front.

Anyway, Kellie has entered the ring 🥊

And, Tony, I'd add National and International factors - suspicions of Russian internet interference whipping up emotions, plus that disgusting piece of shit Farage (with his typical and smart “I don't know, I'm only asking” when actually suggesting it's all about immigrants and Muslims).

Foreign Blue here.

Always amusing and bewildering to hear Britons cry about immigration, seemingly oblovious to their colonial past and its legacy, as if half the counties of origin of those asylum seekers weren't fucked over by British political and military policy.

“Yes but us British ex-pats all work. Not like these scroungers stowing away on rubber dinghies.”

Just a thought - maybe those same scrounges are economic migrants from nations whose resources have been taken by the hard-working British colonisers?

Or maybe the regimes in some of those counties are oppressive because their governments were patsies of the UK/US, who fit their foreign policy at the time, before those two nations pulled their troops out and left them to get on with it?

Kevin Molloy. A man whose name couldn't be more Irish if it was Paddy O'Leprechaun, fearful of not being able to retain English / Cockney culture. I get your point, I really do, and your concerns are valid. But I'd have more respect for you if you just admitted “hands up, I don't wanna see too many dark faces and prayer mats about the place.”

“I'm not a racist but I saw loads of foreign faces around County Road and it frightened the shite out of me.” So not a racist, only a raging xenophobe then Tony?

Jim #454

Absolutely spot on

Jim yes. I should have just cut to the quick. I just don't want too many brown faces around the place. That better? Do I have your respect now? Phew.

#456 a joke, of course.

Barry, we're going back and forth and round in circles. Perhaps I'm projecting a bit because I've seen the genetic/cultural sleight of hand too many times and even on this thread.

It is all so superficial and doesn't lead to any insight to the kind of thing we are seeing up and down the land.

"The British are a mongrel people" - untrue, certainly no more than any other ethnicity on the planet.

"Our cultures and practices derive from so many sources" - debatable, though people will have their own take on what culture is. This is another trite comment that is equally applicable to every other nation on earth, and if it is a good thing then the world should have been grateful to the British for spreading their culture through colonialism, though I doubt my ancestors were.

"We are all immigrants if you go back far enough" - sure, but as genetics prove (sorry again Barry), for most people that will be going back beyond the culture itself, so probably not an amazing insight.

We're clearly talking cross-purposes. It doesn't seem to matter to you and it doesn't apply to me, but it clearly matters to quite a few people who are rioting and protesting.

Jim, so is colonialism good or bad then? Or is it sometimes good, but only when it's some kind of comeuppance?

The 'sins of colonialism' argument is a load of balls unless you can point to some kind of Irish Empire that embarked on global plundering of resources to explain what is happening in Ireland.

I think it must be something else.

Peter, are you an ethno-geneticist or just someone who has read a ‘fact' which supports their point of view and is determined to run with it?
Can you answer, with any degree of expertise the following?
I thought the Picts preceded the Celts, who came later from Europe?
Are Angles, Saxons and Celts really that genetically differentiated that anyone can state the Celts somehow held out / bred truest against all-comers? All those ‘races' basically came from a European mixing bowl and then hopped across the Channel as their fortunes waxed, so were those people all genetically distinct or was it mainly their relatively transient cultural differences that defined them and led them to be given a group name?
99.999% of those ‘agitating' on the back of a tragic but isolated incident will know bugger all about genetics and care little for genuine historical facts. They just don't want to tolerate anything they can't identify with.

This guy who put Denise in an headlock, has he been found yet, or are they still flicking through the far right archives, to track him down.

Thank the Lord none of this happened when we held our protests over the board, we would have all been labelled far right, there again it's seems the new go to is call everyone protesting far right, that should scare a few away from having the right to have a peaceful protest.

But the best of all from the main media, they apologised to the Muslims that were out in force in Birmingham and running riot and said they thought the far right were going to turn up, no mention of those behind her doing cartwheels holding weapons, they were there to protect themselves, is that not the same as people coming out to try and protect their family and children.

We know some idiots saw an opportunity to go looting so joined in the peace protest, but a lot of people that were there were people afraid of what is happening, but to label everyone who wanted to get a point across, not every white protester is a far right.

Colour or race should never come into it, we should all get along, but the media and the people at the top are wanting this to happen, divide a nation, then we can come in as a state law, get the soldiers and the police to take martial law and do as they say.

All geared up to take total control of us, cashless society followed by having to put your hand up to get permission to go for a piss.

George Orwell was bang on with 1984.

Big picture, IMHO, much of the extremism and social unrest in many western countries has been as a result of economic policies, neoliberalism (aka Thatcherism) in particular. Everything is privatised, globalised etc. Total economic output of the world has increased massively but the benefits have not been spread evenly (also the environment is being destroyed). There is a massive gap between the "haves" and "have nots" both within countries and between countries. This leads to anger and resentment which is ironically exploited by the very people who are pushing these right wing policies (eg Tories, Trump, Reform etc).

Livin' in a city of immigrants
I don't need to go travelin'
Open my door and the world walks in
Livin' in a city of immigrants
Livin' in a city that never sleeps
My heart keepin' time to a thousand beats
Singin' in languages I don't speak
Livin' in a city of immigrants

City of black
City of white
City of light
City of innocents
City of sweat
City of tears
City of prayers
City of immigrants

Livin' in a city where the dreams of men
Reach up to touch the sky and then
Tumble back down to earth again
Livin' in a city that never quits
Livin' in a city where the streets are paved
With good intentions and a people's faith
In the sacred promise a statue made
Livin' in a city of immigrants

City of stone
City of steel
City of wheels
Constantly spinnin'
City of bone
City of skin
City of pain
City of immigrants

All of us are immigrants
Every daughter, every son
Everyone is everyone
All of us are immigrants - everyone
Livin' in a city of immigrants
River flows out and the sea rolls in
Washin' away nearly all of my sins
Livin' in a city of immigrants

City of black
City of white
City of light
Livin' in a city of immigrants
City of sweat
City of tears
City of prayers
Livin' in a city of immigrants
City of stone
City of steel
City of wheels
Livin' in a city of immigrants
City of bone
City of skin
City of pain
City of immigrants
All of us are immigrants

-Steve Earle

I live in Toronto, it's overcrowded as fuck but multiculturalism is among the city's very best features if you ask me.

Si, the point about genetics may have gone over your head so let's walk through it together, assuming you are not determined to misinterpret it. You'll see how your question about Picts is irrelevant.

There have been a few claims on here and many, many more elsewhere that we are all just immigrants anyway and so many waves of immigrants have made up the British and English people that it is all a bit rich to be worried about all this migration malarkey.

This is not very profound or accurate thinking and the genetic studies of the English point this out.

I'm not fixated on genetics before you ask, I'm mixed-race (lucky me) and neither side is from here. But I can read a scientific paper and conclude a meaning from it as I hope can you.

The genetic studies show that the English people have had a remarkably consistent identity for the last 1,100 to 1,400 years. Successive waves of migrations had next to no impact on the people, genetically speaking.

The current rates of migration into the UK, (which had led to the self-identified Brits already becoming a minority in their capital city), are projected to see minority groups living in Britain rise to 40% by 2050 (from 10% in 2006, according to the Migration Observatory at Oxford University).

To claim that this is somehow normal or similar to anything that has happened in the last 1,400 years is so disingenuous as to being taking the piss. That's what the genetic studies prove and why I brought them up. Going back to that point in time (got to stop somewhere though I do also love the Picts), I'm pretty sure you know that the Anglo-Saxon migrations into Britain were a time of great social turmoil, to put it mildly. The good news is that their predecessors, the Celts, did live on. Just at the expense of their entire culture.

As I tried to say earlier, if you're attempting to assuage the fears of a fairly large group of people, it's not the lesson from history I'd go with.

I think people know the difference between immigration and 'mass immigration' (the key word being mass) and seem to be a bit bored of people willfully conflating the two.

Peter

The last 1100 years seems an arbitrary starting point. We are an island like Japan so obviously it's harder for people to get here. But just over 1100 years ago most of the native people were massacred by Danes then more so Anglo Saxons. So does that become the starting point for England? The fact that prior too the original natives were civilized by the Roman's and theteafter were civilized by the French seem kind of important. Then we got overlords from the original Brits eg Scottish in the form of James to come down and rule us followed by Dutch and Germans. But thereafter we conquered the world so like the Roman's before us we built an empire where we (eg the sons of Danes, Germans and French who killed the natives) were a minority in our empire but our empire gravitated here.

So we are mongrels, as you point out like everyone else. The rioters aren't upset cause of that, they're upset like any uneducated, ignorant group who see others getting ahead of them. They assume it's a big conspiracy instead of looking at themselves and their own failings. If it wasn't migrants it would be the bourgeois, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, socialists, unionists, republicans, or anyone else you can stick a label on. Losers always satisfy themselves by trying to identify AN Other as malificeht. It's BS.

Christine #449, similarly I have mates in Liverpool whose fathers are Somali, yet if you only heard them you'd think they are 100% Scouser, which they are, being born and dragged up in the city and having a Scouse mentality.

As a student in Newcastle I had a landlord from Pakistan, couldn't speak a word of English but his 15-year-old grandson who translated for us spoke broad Geordie.

A mate at uni from Bradford had a broad Yorkshire accent, he hated Indians, despite the fact his name was Singh and his parents were Indian!

The Thai wife of a Dutch mate visited London one time and she asked me "why are there so many Indians in England?" when I told her, "they're not Indians, they're English" she really couldn't understand. To a Thai, if you're a foreigner you can never become Thai, even you speak the language fluently and (in rare cases) get a Thai passport you just don't look Thai. On the other hand my wife is always mistaken for Thai by Thais, and where I am now incredibly, Indonesian, just 'cos she's Asian.

Eugene #409, thanks for the chuckle. That was actually written by an Italian immigrant.

Ray #407, thanks, I'll do that.

Mark #431, me too.

Mark #415 and Michael #411, there are a few more than that, but the small number is actually no surprise. There are fewer than 16 million Jews in the entire world, and 80% are in the US and Israel. That doesn't leave many left over for the rest of the planet. When my wife kicks me out and I move to Merseyside, it'll constitute a population explosion!

If you haven't seen it before, Stewart Lee says it better than I ever could. "Coming over here"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a17duTUK6qw

Mike @467, ok to be precise, in the 2021 census, 219,160 people identified as Jewish through religion only, 16,030 through ethnic group only, and 52,165 through both religion and ethnic group. That makes around 287,000.

It's a tiny community and 80,000 of those are Haredi ultra-orthodox who are of course very insular, isolated from not just the non-Jewish world, but also from the less orthodox majority of Jews.

When you do move to Liverpool, you'll find a small and shrinking Jewish population - a lot have moved to Manchester over the past few decades but, worse than that, you'll find that some of them are Red Shite! Hard to believe, I know.

Vikings, Anglo Saxons from Germany and Scandanavia. Normans. People from the Commonwealth. Irish, Italians. Who cares? My wife's family on her mother's side traces their background to the Spanish Basques.

We are a mixed breed. Always have been.

Anyway, only 3 days until the Roma match. I'm really looking forward to it and the trip home.

When I lived in Italy, close to Rome, I went to watch both Roma and Lazio, but took a liking to Roma. Both supporters are mental, but Roma better. There is no better way of putting it, but Lazio are just fascists. Right down to doing Hitler style salutes. There is history as Mussolini drained the marshes around the region and established teams, so he's held in high regard.

Roma tend to be the city team. Lazio more regional in the surrounding areas.

As for Napoli, which I ventured to once, now that is an experience!!

Duncan I am a massive Stewart Lee fan mate, legend!

In a lot of instances I think you are correct Brent, (people turning up at migrant hotels, are only going for trouble) but I very nearly went to the Pier Head myself on Saturday, and although I might be what is termed a little bit of a scally, I'm definitely not a far right racist.

Maybe it was intuition, or maybe it's because I'm going on holiday in a couple of weeks and need the money, (why I never went) but it made me angry to see the violence, especially when I had to drive about 5 miles instead of 1 mile, because the bottom road had been shut off.

This produced major traffic pushing everyone inwards towards the centre of town and when I spoke to a couple of young lads in a car opposite (something a lot of us do in a traffic jam) because I was criticising the amount of Police, they told me that what had happened seemed very stage managed.

They have let the Palestine March and the anti racism rally, March right to the pier head, and everything was absolutely fine until this happened they said. I've since seen the video, and it seems those two kids were telling the truth.

Hence why I was probably the person who started this whole debate when replying to Jim Bennings, who said he can see Saturdays game being cancelled.

When I spoke to those lads who told me that everything was fine until this happened, I had been speaking to my partner, who told me she had not long heard that there was going to be a dispersal order in place from 4pm on Saturday afternoon until 4am on Sunday morning, and looking at my watch, the time said 4.15PM.

Starmer is an absolute disgrace the way he has set his stall out to deal with this very major issue and I genuinely think Bill Kenwright was a saint when I compare him to this very dangerous man.

Tony, I really don't understand the hate directed at Starmer (as opposed to the likes of Farage, Robinson, Tice et al). What is it that Starmer has done or should have done differently?

Kieran, I think you only skim-read my posts. I'll make my point once again before I'll drop the matter to muse about something more palatable.

I didn't choose an arbitrary point, that was roughly how long ago the Kingdom of England was established and put an end to some 300 years of migratory turmoil. Since that time until the post-war decades, the English were a remarkably homogenous people, as shown by genetic studies from the last 20 years that dispel the myth that they're a 'mongrel people' (in any meaningful way and certainly no more than the rest of the peoples of the world).

Neither Churchill nor Paddy Ashdown could have known, without these studies, how wrong you are about the Saxons. They added their stock to the same Celtic genetic material that are the predominant component of the
English today, 10-40% as a crude figure. They didn't wipe the Celts out, just their culture. Their descendents are alive and well.

I repeatedly cite these studies not because I am some kind of purist (can't afford to be as a second generation immigrant) but because they are emphatic proof that the successive waves of immigration (French, Italian, whatever) that people are touting as a precedent to current trends, were in numbers so small that they barely left a genetic trace. That's unassailable, as Barry might say.

As I stated later, current trends of immigration will see the British dwindle to a mere 60% of the population by the 2050s (we might even still be around ourselves) which is a seismic demographic shift with no precedent for well over 1000 years, if ever. The last pattern of migration that came even vaguely close (Anglo-Saxon) ultimately destroyed the existing culture. Not the best time to be around.

Anyone is entitled to still think it is all marvelous but you'll be bucking the trend not just here but around the world. You can even welcome the destruction of British culture entirely as a good thing, but it'd be a bit obtuse to then pretend you don't know what all the fuss is about and a bit naive not to expect more of the same. I'd also struggle to think how a culture could sustain itself at such an accelerating rate of change.

I doubt that many of the protesters or thugs that have been flooding the streets will have studied the research as I invite you, but they will feel the inherent threat in their core, same as every other people of the world do in such circumstances.

Neil (463),

Nice verses Neil, I think you sum it up for me with your last line, especially the overcrowded bit — that's the main problem I think with Britain, it's already overcrowded.

We live on a small Island and this can't carry on, as my wife says Some of them are going to fall over the edges soon if it doesn't stop!”

A man of good taste, Steve Shave. I've been to see him a couple of times in recent years.

Where there are no answers to life's problems, why not have a few laughs about it all?

Peter #474

Some of the protestors may have a point somewhere along the line. But against the backdrop of misspending and outright theft by our politicians (and friends):

Underfunding and mismanaging the NHS

Permitting our rivers to be polluted and unusable

Underfunding our education system (see teacher strikes as an example)

Constant reductions in police numbers etc

The allowance of Ultra Processed Food to dominate our nutritional options

Etc etc etc (lots wrong with the country: housing, social unrest, culture of corruption, gas price increase whilst CEOs profiteer — similar with supermarkets)

Why didn't these ‘protesters' (racist morons) protest about any of the above?

One whiff that those kids could have been killed by an immigrant and they mobilised in incredible speed. When Lucy Letby killed multiple babies and attempted to kill many more, there wasn't 1% of an outcry. Why? Because she was white and British?

It doesn't add up, does it?

The first thing that Starmer should have done, Sam, is ease the fears of the British public, instead of just going down the road of it being far-right thugs.

Can you seriously tell me that a scouse kid, smashing three policemen in an airport would have got police bail?

What Starmer is doing is ridiculous imo. He's opening the door for Farage, a man who convinced enough of the public that we would be better off out of Europe, with his main policy being all about immigration.

If it's true that Jeremy Corbyn, who lost by a landslide, got more individual votes than Keir Starmer, a man who won by a landslide, then we had better be careful because I'm sure Nigel Farage, actually got the third most individual votes, in the last general election.

Jim, back at (12),

You could be right after all, I've heard a loud Chinese whisper, that's appropriate on this thread isn't, that the stewards at Everton and Liverpool have been told that the police have told the clubs they are expecting protest meeting at both grounds on Saturday and Sunday, when Liverpool play Seville. They have advised their stewards and will understand if they decide not to turn up.

I hope this is a load of baloney but I'm afraid it could be true.

But who are the British? We are all descendants of peoples from various parts of Europe over the centuries.

Dave and Neil, valid points. I done a social Science course years back and it was interesting to see a map of the world based on population. We were right up there.

A population of 68M, with most of that in England (57 million) and the majority of that crammed along and south of the M62 and east of the M5.

Large parts of Scotland and Wales are empty and Northern Ireland has a population of similar size to Merseyside!

Ben, I like your post mate, because it's intelligent, but most people even when they are aware of things just carry on and maybe talk about it.

I say it's intelligent Ben, but with regards the speed you say the protest evolved last Tuesday in Southport, I think it was mostly just people from Merseyside who were there rioting?

I've just seen a WhatsApp my mate has just sent me captioned Farage admitting he was peddling false information, but when I watched the video that was meant to discredit him, my feelings are that it is only going to make the man more popular.

Elon Musk has got in on the act now, but this has only been allowed to happen because Starmer's current policing policy just doesn't appear to be fair.

Tony @ 481,

Starmer has only been Prime Minister for a mere month or so, do you honestly believe that the policing policy has not remained the same for a fair bit longer than that?

In fact, all policing policy is dictated by how things are shaping on the ground — they respond as they see fit, softly softly if they think the situation can be managed, hard-line if it looks as if they might lose control of the situation - no politics in that mate - just a judgement by the head police guy.

There obviously is a major concern of many that mass migration cannot continue unabated, but threatening innocent people and trashing buildings and local businesses isn't the way to go.

The fact that some yobs decide that they want to destroy stuff to make a point actually helps to muddy the waters and leaves us far away from a grown-up discussion about possible solutions to an issue that is a world-wide phenomenon and not just a UK issue.

If the sentiment about mass migration is so strong, why don't all of those who have legitimate concerns get off their collective backsides and march peacefully on Parliament instead of leaving it to a very small group of racists to determine the agenda?

One of the things that has puzzled me has been the police response to these riots.

When faced with a large number of people acting in an anti-social manner, doesn't Old Bill usually enquire about their mental health and make them a nice cup of tea?

Jim Jennings @454, is right mate,

Because I actually didn't say I was frightened Jim, is it okay for me to call you an ignorant fool? (I'd call you a lot worse to your face, if I'm being honest Jim) and being a humanitarian, (meaning I agree with what you have said about the Americans and the English) I was sad to see what xenophobe meant, after I have just looked it up now.

You have got me wrong Jim, but that's what happens when people start having serious discussions about very complex situations.

He's set up a traveling army of policemen, Fred, so this is definitely his own policy imo, mate. (482 is a good post, Fred!)

With things going the way they are he has obviously had no other option, but to continually push it down the road of saying it's just far-right thugs, when a large number of the population have got massive concerns over immigration right now, then I don't see him trying to do much to try and defuse matters.

Two cobra meetings, when the obvious thing seems to be to recall parliament, shows me that Starmer, doesn't really want to listen to anyone and he has set his stall out to defeat these protesters by putting whoever is arrested in jail.

What happens if things continue to get worse and we end up with thousands upon thousands of the population in prison on remand?

Tony@478, ease the British public's fear over what? Immigration? He has spoken about immigration at length and laid out plans to improve processing time and standards etc. We will see if that comes to fruition.

I think to say anything that would have sounded like justification for those mindless and appalling riots would have been deeply wrong and offensive to the majority of people. Is that what you're suggesting?

I still don't understand what he's doing that you think is ridiculous?

He could have dealt with the riots differently imo Sam, and my opinion is that instead of trying to defuse things, he seems to be fanning the flames.

I'm done with it, and hope that things start becoming calmer but, unless things change, ie, Starmer's current policy, I genuinely can't see this happening.

Tony, we've spoken on our views on Starmer. He makes bold statements with not much substance behind it. He talks of setting up thousands of extra Police forces, that's not happening overnight.

I'm speculating and have no inside information, but if this carries on, I can see the Army being called in to assist an increasingly depleted Police force. Only the approach would be very different!

I do agree, the tone needs to be one of defusing the situation. I've seen worse, both home and abroad.

As always, when I got back from walking the dogs this morning, I watched the news. I was met with scenes of people breaking windows and looting shops. Specsavers for gods sake?

Hopefully there won't be any trouble around Goodison on Saturday as I just want to enjoy a drink outside the Harlech and watch the match!

Water cannons and plastic bullets. That would sort the morons out.

Smashing any building that serves the public is a disgrace on civil liberty, Danny, but the narrative with regards two-tier policing is only getting stronger.

It's true that the Muslim people are not trying to burn or loot any buildings, which means they are not as great a danger as the right-wing lunatics (which Fred explains) who have behaved in this way.

But it's easy to see why a lot of people are dismayed, when the kid who attacked the police in Manchester airport is actually only on bail.

Tony, I think there's a difficult line to walk sometimes between defusing a situation and coming down hard.

In my opinion,n the actions of the rioters absolutely merited calling out and coming down hard. Burning hotels and libraries and looting shops can surely not be tolerated under any circumstances and such heinous actions deserve a forceful rhetoric.

Perhaps there is room alongside that to have more in depth conversations about immigration and its future impact on the country but I was glad to see Starmer come down hard and I hope the arrests made and sentences handed down by the police will help deter the thugs out there from continuing such a course of action.

Kowtowing to such behaviour could be seen as weakness and might only give rise to more.

Stopping people looting isn't difficult. I could stop it easily. But my methods wouldn't go down well.

Ben King - you've listed some good things there to protest about and I reckon the list is much longer. Wouldn't want to see police getting attacked or citizens seeing their businesses torched whatever the cause, which shouldn't even need to be stated.

But with the greatest of respect, your Lucy Letby comment is blatant cherry-picking, as other posters have cautioned against multiple times.

It seems that this unrest has been a long time coming and has little to do with the heinous killing of children in Southport but surely you are not ignorant to the litany of other flashpoints that have occurred over decades. We even had a potential one just prior with the stabbing of a uniformed soldier.

You'll remember Lee Rigby I hope. You'll hopefully remember Rotherham and the multitude of other such scandals. If not, read the report if you can stomach it.

My personal hot take is that the police response (or lack of, at least immediately) in Leeds was quite negatively perceived by the mass protesters we are currently enduring and potentially emboldened them into having a go themselves. They've perceived it as yet another sign of preferential treatment being afforded to anyone but them.

I also remember the 2011 riots and whilst the 'full force of the law' did eventually fall on the heads of a staggering 3000 criminals, there were plenty of people excusing their behaviour and criticising the 'zero tolerance' rhetoric coming from David Cameron.

Let's not pretend that there haven't been precursors to the horrors of Southport, each and every one of us which could have been a potential flashpoint.

To try to lay this issue at Starmer's door is a joke. He took office on 4 July and has to deal with an immigration problem that originated when the last goverment lost control of our borders over their 14 years in power.

He cannot set up a national response police force of 6,000 overnight (it may take a week), but to try to lay that at his door is laughable.

I agree that the policing of these riots has been mishandled — the police should have gone in with full force at the onset to meet the disgusting racist violence.

As Churchill is alleged to have said, you can't reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth. The police will switch up to use maximum force and a lot of people are going to prison.

After Covid, I trust the British State about as far as I could throw it.

You can believe that the UK is now a hotbed of the Far Right, with operations being directed from, of all places, Liverpool, or you can see this for what I think it is. State manipulation in order to bring about changes in legislation such as face recognition technology, digital passports et al.

Classic problem, response and then here is the legislative and technological solution that we made earlier, and which is oven-ready.

And the bloodless ghoul which is Starmer, I've got a very bad feeling about this chap. For someone so lacking in charisma, he has had a meteoric rise through first the CPS and now the Labour Party.

The Czechs had him down on their list as MI5 30 years ago, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is still on the payroll, and doing the state's biding at every turn. He certainly isn't tossing and turning every night worrying about the plight of your working man.

Sky News is gonna be like the BBC coverage of the Olympics today.

"Now this is where we leave our coverage of the looting of Preston Poundland and go live to Blackpool where a man in a Lonsdale vest has just thrown a brick 18 meters at the Pepsi Max Ride.

"Later, we will be revisiting the world record-breaking unfurling of the biggest ever cross of St George in Darlington with Alex Scott,. Over to you, Matt!"

Steve,

You accused me of vile racism yesterday. I asked you to provide the evidence for that. Can you please post it up?

Kevin @ 365 and 497, sorry just catching up. Yes you are definitely a racist. I judge yon on your words here and on other threads - "I wouldn't be comfortable with my daughter dating a black or brown man" was one on my favourites.

Others on here are perhaps useful idiots for the likes of Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage. But you I have no doubt about.

Yes, Steve, can you provide any evidence for that statement?

If so, I'd be keen to view it.

Peter @474,

I think you keep missing the point by crusading the genetic id of Englishness. Whatever the validity of your sources, protestors are not carrying placards saying "protect our genetic ancestry".

What they are doing is carrying placards about Islam and immigrants from across the channel whilst attacking mosques and hotels containing such immigrants. Plus they have a history of setting upon dark-skinned ethnicities for no apparent reason.

With respect, the genetic stuff doesn't figure one iota.

Sam, @486, as you say, there should be no justification for riots, it would be offensive and deeply wrong. But there is that photo of Starmer and Rayner taking the knee in support of the BLM movement, despite riots in American that led to the loss at least five lives, the destruction of countless small businesses, and over a billion dollars worth of damage.

Then there is the reaction to the Roma riot in Harehills, with the left justifying it and hammering the right wing media for talking tough. This quote from Prospect magazine: "The social unrest in the Harehills area of Leeds on Thursday 18th July provoked a wearily predictable response from the usual suspects. GB News, with trademark subtlety, quoted one viewer who described participants as “terrorists”, while the Mail and Express went with the tried-and-tested “thugs”.

"Social unrest"? Not a riot then? It's like an inversion of what is happening now, with the right wing media looking to justify, while the left wing media clutches at its pearls and talks about "far right terrorism".

Everyone seems to just take a side, nobody listens to each other. Even when you can see the plain hypocrisy on both sides. One man's thug is another man's activist. The charge being laid at "Two Tier Keir" is that he is not being even handed. Is that fair? It really depends on which side of the divide you place yourself, I suppose.

Neil 463 - anyone who references the great Steve Earle is okay by me. Good man.

Kevin @495.

I agree with you on Starmer. The guy has zero empathy and, if you watch his interviews and look into his eyes, there's nothing there.

He's a very dangerous man and the Labour Party need to get rid of him very quickly.

Kevin, don't bother trying to be evasive to avoid answering the question. Both you and I know you did.

But let's have one final try:

Did you say on a ToffeeWeb thread in the past say that you wouldn't be comfortable with your daughter dating a black or brown man? You can simply answer Yes/No.

Steve, no I didn't say that. My family have a lot of mixed-race marriages and children. I would be excommunicating a third of my relatives.

I work with black people on a daily basis, and count some of them as my friends. And I don't have a daughter. So I am more than a little perplexed by your strong assertion that my imaginary daughter does not marry a black man.

But again, if you can show me any statements by me indicating that I am, I will be happy to read them.

You definitely said it, Kevin. And I didn't say you had a daughter.

You said that you wouldn't want your daugher going out with a black or brown man.

That is what you said. We both know it.

But congratulations on knowing black people through work.

You're really getting on my nerves, Steve.

Either put up. provide the evidence, or shut the fuck up.

Tony, I'm too far away to have a serious take on the new Prime Minister. He is trying to be all things to all people and displeases all.

For what I have seen of the man, he lacks the strength of character to hold good on any promise he makes. His moral compass appears to depend on public opinion.

I think any labour leader could have sleep-walked to victory in the election, with the Tories an utter disgrace.

Jeremy Corbyn was a man with principles but he was politically naive, fed to the party sharks. I think he would have been an honest Prime Minister.

Michael, I'm surprised see you drawing a direct comparison between what happened at Harehills and what has happened around the country in the last week.

The incident at Harehills was in one specific place and had a very clear catalyst as police tried to help social services take Romani children into care. Tensions escalated and a few cars and coaches were burnt.

I'm not sure this is that comparable to mass rioting, looting, damage to public property attacking and attempting to burn a hotel with asylum seekers inside; which was prompted (as far as I can see) primarily by misinformation about the murder of the children in Southport.

The scale and origins of the two situations is pretty different. And even so the reports of two-tiered policing is wildly exaggerated. With the Harehills case Yvette Cooper said she was "appalled at the shocking scenes", and that "disorder of this nature has no place in our society". And over 30 people have been arrested so far. The idea that those who broke the law there are being let off is factually untrue.

“Two-tiered policing” looks to be just another slogan for the right so far, though admittedly it is early in Starmers tenure.

Each situation should be treated individually and with nuance. Of course you are right that people have become more tribal and there is hypocrisy on both sides but that's why the facts are more important than ever.

Sam, I was going to write a detailed response with attributed quotes, footnotes and links, but as you said I was an intelligent poster, I'll take the small win and get some work done instead.

Wait, I'm no longer an intelligent poster! How did that happen?

Ha! Michael, I deleted it because on re-reading I worried it might sound patronizing which was not my intention at all! I do think you're an intelligent poster though! I also should get some work done so perhaps best to leave it with a mutual respect (I hope) and understanding that we may differ slightly on this subject.

A 58-year-old rioter has just been jailed for 3 years. Hopefully that will make people think twice now.

Sam, absolutely.

First sentences handed out, up to 3 years. And I suspect some further sentences will be even harsher. Fully deserved.

In my opinion, there are two issues that need differentiating.

Three children killed in Southport by a UK citizen born in Cardiff and empathy with the poor families of those kid.

Then the separate issue of immigration. Many have concerns about uncontrolled immigration and how we process people. I do, but it doesn't mean I'm against immigration. I'm not, as I am sure most aren't. Most of my Uber drivers are from Afghanistan or Pakistan (so Muslim), and have lived in the UK for several years.

Like I say, split the two apart. By all means protest about immigration policies, but don't link it to those kids being killed in Southport.

Split the two apart? Danny it is the explicit aim of the far right to conflate the two issues to create violence. And it is working.

The riots in Southport began due to far right social media lies that a muslim asylum seeker was responsible for the murders of the children. The two cannot be separated as fear whipped up by racists on immigration have been used to a) attack asylum hotels b) target mosques c) burn libraries d) attack minorities. This is being organised by racists.

We can rationalise why that happened later. For now, Sky have just reported that the 6000 police rapid response force that you mocked Starmer over has already been mobilised.

It appears to me that you are making points on this thread to play both sides. Get off the fence.

Brent @ 516, a lot of people are going to prison for a long time. And they won't have The Donald to grant them a pardon.

As you say 100% merited.

Is anybody else still waiting for their season ticket to arrive? I'm still waiting plus I purchased a ticket for the Roma game and I haven't received that either.

"A 58-year-old rioter has just been jailed for 3 years. Hopefully that will make people think twice now."

Countless thousands of victims of criminality could only dream of such a response. Luckily they've been tossing convicted crims out of prison onto the street due to "lack of resources", handily making room.

No-one sane agrees with needless violence or damage, but the real effect the government will be hoping for is to deter peaceful, well-behaved protesters.

Bill # 520…

Did you ask the club for a paper ticket for Roma, as I believe they are trying to encourage everyone to have their ticket on their mobile phone. I went down to the ground to get mine, and within a minute had the email and was able to download my ticket into my wallet.

I got my season ticket about 10 days ago.

My thoughts, for what it's worth.

It started in the 1980s with Thatcher hollowing out the industrial base of this country, thereby excluding huge numbers of (predominantly) white men from employment, and consequently depriving them of the self-worth achieved by earning a wage sufficient to provide for their families.

That forced those families into the ignominy of claiming benefits paid for by the proceeds of selling off the nation's infrastructure and North Sea oil, proceeds that could instead have been used to progressively and compassionately move the country towards a post-industrial economy.

Then Cameron and Osborne made the political choice to respond to the consequences of the 2008 global financial crisis, not by adopting a gradual strategy focussed on fiscal stimulus, but by imposing austerity to quickly reduce the deficit. A policy that disproportionately harmed the same people hurt by Thatcher more than two decades earlier.

The harms to the country caused by political decisions taken in the 1980s and 2010s has created an environment where a significant part of the country feels powerless, with no hope for the future, and is looking for someone or something to blame.

An easy answer was to blame immigrants and claim that they were being given an unfair advantage not available to natives. That directly led to the Brexit result in 2016 but, now that Vote Leave's promise to “take back control” of this country's borders has proved to be a chimera, the argument that immigrants are being favoured for the country's precious resources has switched from Eastern Europeans to the tiny numbers crossing the Channel in small boats.

Stoked by the right-wing media and professional rabble-rousers such as Farage, Braverman and Yaxley-Lennon, that has somehow become confused for many with the large numbers of legal immigrants entering the country in recent years, and for some with Muslims as a whole, and that has created a climate where a disaffected minority has been emboldened to act as we've seen in recent days.

Anyone who's read this far will have noted I point the finger of blame at two Conservative administrations. That may reflect my personal prejudices, but to suggest as I've read on here that Starmer is responsible seems just bizarre.

Yes, Bill, still waiting for my season ticket to arrive.

Not sure this is the place to post it but I've just read that Man Utd had a £40M covid allowance whereas other clubs were allowed much less and that they got an additional £35M allowance for special costs relating to Ratcliffe's share purchase.

If this is true someone in the government (Andy?) needs to investigate and take Masters to task.

"We live on a small Island and this can't carry on."

I heard a remarkable statistic a few weeks ago that just blew my mind:

If you total up the proportion of land area that is built on for people to live in, it is less than 6% — while 70% of the country's land is in agriculture.

And, if you take away those lovely English gardens from that 6%, the land area that actually has buildings is less than 1%!!!

But yea, let's stop the mass immigration coz there just ain't no room for them.

Steve, you keep throwing the word 'racist' about a lot.

I think it's fair to say that we've received into the UK countless numbers of religious bigots that are far worse than your average Briton's prejudices.

A great many people in the UK, incuding me, are saying our population is now high enough; according to you, that makes us racists!

Will #521,

How exactly will dealing expeditously with those guilty of breaking the law put off peaceful well-behaved protestors?

Michael, I don't mean to be rude.

But how does this problem in the UK affect you?

Michael #526.

Very much an over-simplification that, Michael.

I agree with Raymond, our population is high enough. Call me what you want.

Michael 256,

Yes, if you want to destroy farmland, green belt, wildlife parks to build more houses and thereby damage the environment, air quality and overall quality of life, then yes there's plenty of space.

Michael America is vast with loads of land.

Maybe we can send them to you?

Michael @256, England actually has the highest population density in Europe, alongside the Netherlands.

Just as a comparison, England has 430 people per sq km, as against the USA, which has 36 people per sq km/

And, just because I love a stat that makes the head hurt, London has a population density of 5,640 per sq km, which is greater than that of Gaza.

Steve,

I'm not sat on any fence and I wasn't mocking Starmer, just suggesting you can't magic up 6,000 police officers.

We are broadly saying similar things.

Thanks, Rob (& John).

I presumed, when I ordered the ticket, I would get a ticked through the post like I normally do. If I had been asked, I would have asked for paper ticket.

I looked at my confirmation email and have managed to download the ticket to my phone.

Brendan,

Go and find film of the events of a few evenings back near to Downing Street (if The Machine has not scrubbed it all away yet).

People, many of a demographic similar to which comprises TW, very heavy-handedly dealt by a rather proactively briefed police presence.

Grabbed, punched, kicked, kneed, thrown to the ground and arrested - for no more than shouting; some not even that.

Many who've attended protests have seen and experienced this. Many have been arrested and cautioned or convicted for nothing.

The vast majority of protesters are regular non-violent folk. In the current climate, with new "special" units and measures, the risks and implications are obvious.

They don't just want the violence stopping. They fear the protests.

I'm sure if the protests were peaceful, had a semblance of legitimate purpose and outcomes they would like to achieve, they probably would have more support than the usual crowd who follow England and get their news from Facebook.. unchecked videos and reels designed to stir up hate.

There's a real danger of how social media is at play, it blows things out of proportion, distorts reality, feeds the hate, and is basically a weapon of pure evil when used the way it has been in these cases, on all sides.

Elon Musk is disgusting for the way he's fanning the flames, after noticing an upturn in use on X over the past week from a notification on his phone, not having any real interest in UK politics, until it means more $$$. No matter how many people's lives it may ruin, he gains $$$.

Laughing in his mansion watching the violence, while families are trapped in their houses with mobs battling in the street.

Steve:

"Split the two apart? Danny, it is the explicit aim of the far right to conflate the two issues to create violence. And it is working."

Is it really? Where have you seen and heard that? Who has been convicted of using their political beliefs and affiliations to organize such in this current, widespread melee?

The three people convicted so far in relation to the incidents in Southport are from... Southport. Not part of some travelling, rapid response Far Right unit, as quickly and ridiculously suggested in the mainstream media.

All large crowds and gatherings are composed of elements in proportions, it's inevitable and essentially all but unavoidable. Are you a football hooligan because you attended Goodison, when there was a fight outside the ground after the match?

No-one here is condoning violence and damage but to suggest it's some strategic far-right political plan is simplistic nonsense.

And by the way, people should be sitting on the fence — with their eyes, ears and minds wide open.

Bill, from what I understand, they're trying to go towards e-tickets that you download into your smartphone wallet. This is to try to stop the touts buying and selling on for profit, but it has already caused problems.

If you've downloaded the ticket into your phone-wallet and then can't go, the only way someone else can use your ticket is if they have your phone! It can't be sent to someone else, or downloaded more than once. I just hope I don't drop my phone in the bath again before Saturday.

One nerdy thing that I noticed — I was expecting my e-tickets to have a QR code to scan at the turnstile, but it seems like each ticket has a very high frequency sound (much like how a car key fob works). We will see if the technology at the turnstiles is up to scratch…

A large area of Liverpool is going to be heavily policed tonight, because of rumours of further riots. The police will have the power to stop and search anyone, without needing a reason for it. Anyone found carrying any kind of weapon, or suspected of criminal intent will be immediately arrested.

Thing is, probably most of these gobshites are only going to be there in the hope of looting or causing damage to property. They probably have no clue as to why the protests started in the first place.

Alright, Will, I obviously should stay on the sideline since I am not an immediately affected party and others are expressing what I might, but you and others are making allowances you simply rejected for the BLM protests.

You should clean that up and articulate the difference with some fairly precise language if you want your present claim for this protest wave to be taken seriously. Otherwise, it just looks like polemics with no real standards underneath.

Not picking a fight by the way, just making a fair observation.

"The police will have the power to stop and search anyone, without needing a reason for it. Anyone found carrying any kind of weapon, or suspected of criminal intent will be immediately arrested."

I've seen film of several instances in recent days where that would've yielded huge results, Rob, with large numbers of very nasty weapons overtly carried.

Mind you, that would've required the police to actually be in attendance.

What is 'English culture'?

Dale, I would think you have every right to post.

I never rejected anything relating to BLM protests, here or anywhere else. I think they spoke for themselves.

I also as yet have made no mention of the actual core issues.

See Stanley Mills's brother, George, embraced the Olympic spirit after looking like he was going to chin a French runner after they clashed in the 5,000 metres

Paul #543

"What is 'English culture'?"

Paul, there's an excellent book by Jeremy Paxman ("The English") — trying to find a definition of the English and English culture pretty much defeated him, if I remember correctly!

'What is 'English culture'?"

That would need a long description, Paul, but in brief, if you're questioning the concept of culture, then I guess whenever you've travelled abroad it felt exactly like home when you got there.

Will, thanks for the reasonable response. I will not go archival to make my point but there was no separation of the violence from the BLM protests. It was the stated line that the protests themselves were violent and should have faced a severe response from the state.

It would seem the proportion of violence and damage exceeds that which took place during the BLM protests on a per capita basis.

John #545…

Fighting at the Olympics…whatever next, apart from the boxing that is!

Rob, they'll be rowing with each other next!

Paul @543,

You know English culture.

Go out and have a Chinese meal after a few pints, or get a MacDonald's delivered, a nice Indian restaurant on a weekend, a Turkish kebab on the way home… you know, proper English cuisine!

Paul # 543…

England football fans drinking heavily abroad, followed by wanting to fight every native of the country they're in! That's English Culture!

Mind you, every Brit abroad also drinks heavily!

It's 'being taken away from me', yet it's very hard to define.

I'd suggest it's something more personal that people feel is being taken away from them. And if we ever have this 'full and proper debate' on immigration, people will need to be a bit more explicit about what it is.

Then we can work out how we get it back and when we've got it back.

Brent, I had a nice walk along Otterspool promenade this afternoon with the dog. It was very windy though, with the tide heading towards Garston docks.

It's going to be tough for you on your pedalo in similar circumstances. I hope you're spending plenty of time in the gym, rather than Jim's cafe!

I'm considering fitting a sail, Rob. Just need to learn how to tack.

Japan is the same size as Britain, has twice as many people, is largely homogeneous but has a worker shortage and there are concerns of population decline because they don't have many kids and ironically they are not migrant-friendly so they cannot solve the problem.

As far as "Britishness" fading away. Who cares? Nothing lasts forever. Most of us will be dead by then. People have this idea of buying their dream family home and living happily ever after but at some point they die, their dream home's contents are sold off in a boot sale and someone entirely different moves into what has become a fixer-upper.

Things change, the world evolves, you can't try and preserve some kind of utopian ideal of the perfectly balanced society. Get over it and focus on improving the quality of life now instead of fixating on what your great grandkids may look like.

Steve @518, are you aware that there was a protest at the Pier Head on Saturday, that was going very peacefully until the police marched the Palestine March right towards them?

If they would have been kept apart, then who's to say that things wouldn't have passed off peacefully, but this is something we will never know because the police never let this happen.

I've got no argument with a lot of what you say, Steve, but why this was allowed to happen simply does not make sense to me.

Sam @491 rightly points out that there is a fine line between defusing the situation and coming down hard, but it seems to me that the police have put fuel on the fire in this instance, and Starmer's judges are coming down very, very hard.

Paul Hewitt, unless I am very much mistaken, Michael Kenrick has lived in England for some time.

That obviously matters to you.

Tony,

"Starmer's judges are coming down very, very hard."

Tony, I feel we have an independent judiciary in this country, unlike in some other countries. And as I understand it, the three sentenced today received less than the maximum sentence that was possible (but hopefully a good enough deterrent).

Rob, that walk along Otterspool sounds like pre-training for Bramley-Moore Dock. It can get a bit breezy there!!

Duncan (#539),

I don't agree with just having e-tickets. Just think of the chaos if there was a massive problem that prevented people accessing their online wallet, never mind losing your phone or it dying on you.

I work part time in a supermarket at the front end and there are occasions people have to leave their shopping when using their phone and do not have their actual bank card with them.

My ticket appears to have some bar code on it which it says will periodically change for security purposes.

He has, Andy (559), yes.

On the point MK raises, though, it's not about the amount of developed land. It's a question of the size of the population needing to be fed (witness the empty shelves during the Covid panic for an example of how the shit can hit the fan in terms of available food) and the infrastructure required to move them about.

Anyone who has enjoyed the car parks that the M25, M6, M62, M42 even the M40 at times (just some examples seared into my memory!) can become or had to sit on the floor on a train because there aren't enough seats knows that the country struggles to accommodate the number of people living in it as it is.

You could argue that construction should be encouraged in more rural areas (I saw a reference to Wales above) or more motorways should be carved through the countryside but who genuinely wants that? These areas should be cherished for their natural beauty, not paved over.

Tony, was the Palestine march you referred to a No to Racism march? Had they applied for and been given permission to march?

If so, that may be the reason it was allowed to go where it went.

Danny, not sure of the exact distance, but got to be at least between 5 and 6 miles from the far-off Otterspool prom to BMD, so at least a 2-hour walk.

There are a fair number of watering holes along the way though.

Looking forward to the Dave and Steve show coming back Rob!!

Lyndon, I'd rather see redevelopment of unused houses in the towns and cities rather than eat up those rural areas that we can all enjoy.

And there are plenty of empty unused military owned properties throughout the country, about 40 of them just around the corner from me. So much waste.

"The country is full" arguement espoused by a few means that the doors are closed for everyone. Because, obviously if the country is full, it is full.

So no economic migrants for work.

No one fleeing war or persecution — so unlucky Ukraine and anyone else Putin decides to invade.

Or is the country just full for some?

John, you mention Ukraine, why can't displaced people in Ukraine go to and live in the western part of Ukraine, why do they have to come here?

Could it be because they were on different sides in the Second World War?. That's maybe simplifying the situation, I don't know, it just seems strange.

John Charles - do you think the poorest give a cuss about economic migrants who will be their competition for employment?

And the refugees from Ukraine are expected to return there when it is feasible to do so.

If they don't of course, and enter the country in anything like the number of migrants that arrived last year, then I'd wager there would also be protests.

Paul Hewitt, Michael K does not live in the USA.

It's been interesting debate.

Hopefully Lyndon or Michael will put up the Roma pre-match thread so we can get back to Everton and football.

Ticket booked, train booked. Sister still insisting I stay at hers and not the Adelphi.

I was talking to my sister earlier. She's a worrier and was saying what if there are rioters on County Road? I told her I've faced worse and will just walk through them. They're not stopping me getting to Goodison.

Fair enough, Brent, but one day I will finally get to meet you and I don't think we will agree with each other on this matter, mate.

You and Brent will get on fine, Tony.

He's a gent and has met my son and brother.

We'll meet up one match, Tony.

Don't build me up too much, Danny - Tony might end up being disappointed.

Fair enough.

The country is closed to everybody.

This will of course have some fairly noticeable economic and social consequences.

The Palestine March has been going on every weekend for a while in Liverpool now Paul T.

They March on a regular basis and although you might hear the odd shout about why are you marching in Liverpool? The fact, or my own personal opinion, that our city is nowhere near as racist as it was in the eighties, means that I believe they have been marching in peace, before Saturday afternoon.

I believe there are going to be a lot of protests in our country tonight, and it amazes me how they are always next to each other which is obviously a recipe for violence in a lot of cases.

Maybe it's easier to police, for an overstretched police force? And maybe it's not always just the perceived racists that always start the trouble?

I would have thought that it would be a lot easier to prevent trouble if the different fractions are kept apart, but I have always been a believer that prevention is better than cure.

For all of those naive fools here who would claim that these thugs, losers and half-wits have no connection with right-wing extremism and fascism. 90 years ago, spurred on by Nazi demagogues, thousands of Germans rampaged through towns and cities, destroying Jewish properties — Kristallnacht!

Not all of those thugs, losers and half-wits would have described themselves as Nazis — they hadn't attended Nuremberg rallies, been to National Socialist Party branch meetings, and certainly wouldn't have read Mein Kampf. They were however prepared to do the dirty work of Hitler and his cronies.

And now we have our own demagogues like Farage, Yaxley-Lennon and Anderson, using our own thugs, losers and half-wits to advance their own extreme right-wing political ends.

And yet some people on this site try to justify treating it as somehow understandable behaviour to attend these 'demonstrations'.

Fair enough, Tony, you're on the ground. My question is whether they've been granted permission to march? If they have, that's why they're allowed to complete their route.

That wouldn't be 'two-tier' policing, that's a legal march taking precedence over an illegal one.

I'd be wanting to find that out first.

And Godwin wins again.

Always does, Dale.

There's only so much the police these days can learn from the police of yesteryear when it comes to quelling, disbursing or arresting crowds of rioters.

When Toxteth went up over 40 years ago, the very next day, the Manchester Chief Constable had every leader of every so-called group in his office and told them to their face that they had that day only to get word out to their various groups that no such behaviour would be tolerated on "his" patch.

Well, it did kick off there, but the moment it did, dozens of van loads of hairy-arsed coppers drove at speed right into the throng and leapt out to beat the living daylights out of every one who didn't run off fast enough.

That was pretty much the end of rioting in Manchester, as other cities endured many days more.

Any copper now behaving like that would get done himself, and they know it, so they mostly just watch before grabbing a few who are then made an example of by immediate imprisonment, as happened in our city today.

I never mentioned two tier policing, Paul, but one thing that I hope definitely comes out of this latest unrest is that people stop talking about two tier policing.

You have just made me think a bit more Paul, and even though I definitely feel like I have got the onset of dementia (hopefully this doesn't upset anyone, because my long term memory is definitely suffering) my short term memory, has just made me realize that they usually March to the top of Lord St, and then protest by the crown court, which is not the way they marched on Saturday.

It's been a successful evening especially in Liverpool, were the people turned out to protect one of my old school churches, (the metropolitan cathedral being our other) so hopefully things can calm down and then the politicians can have a proper debate and find some better solutions for a problem that is simmering beneath the surface.

Thankfully tonight's riots don't seem to have kicked off.

Several nights of far right protests...largely violent.

One night of anti-racist demonstrations...largely peaceful.

Draw your own conclusions.

Restored my faith in people actually.

Brendan,

Not sure Will Mabon is going to be too happy with the shocking sight of the police allowing peaceful well-behaved protest:

The real effect the government will be hoping for is to deter peaceful, well-behaved protesters.

Maybe it would be okay if we labelled them 'leftist'?

That's true, Brendan, but I honestly don't believe there would have been trouble in Liverpool town centre last Saturday, so hopefully that's the end of it now.

You could also argue that there were no far right protesters in Birmingham the other night when members of the public were attacked but maybe it's true that the police letting these people roam freely might have helped defuse the situation.

Anyway, Brendan, if you really want people to restore your faith, then are you still coming to the Bournemouth game!?

How many shops looted tonight by the counter demonstrators?
How many religious establishments ransacked tonight?
How many libraries trashed tonight?
How many people attacked tonight?
How many arrests do we expect after tonight's appalling scenes of calm and peace?

Tony, this wasn't you then, back @490?

The narrative with regards two-tier policing is only getting stronger.

Or was tonight's incredible tolerance of such blatant peaceful protest by thousands with only one arrest a clear demonstration of your two-tier policing?

That narrative is what a lot of people I speak to feel is real Michael, so would it not be better to post everything I said @490, instead of trying to be clever in your usual way.

What do you think about that attack on the police in Manchester airport, Michael, and the subsequent disorder, that was all built on lies?

Tonight was a success because the people who came out to counter protest never actually had anyone to counter, so let's hope it stays this way.

Paul T, did you mention two-tier policing because I mentioned it in post 490? If you did I hadn't realized, because I never mentioned two-tier policing with regards to the trouble in Liverpool on Saturday afternoon, and was more interested in questioning why the police let the Palestine March go straight to the Pier Head.

Keep trying Michael, because I'm sure you would love to get me one day mate, and not have to move around your thread.

That, Paul (584), is because they were public expressions of community against the racist thugs who have disgustingly hijacked the killing of three girls and their families mourning to walk up and down singing "Oh, Tommy, Tommy" and attack people of different creeds and ethnicities (one of the first three arrests in Southport was a racist thug from St Helens).

These good people made their point all over the country and exactly how many of them attacked and damaged people and property?

Tony #587

Flights and hotel booked. Staying for four days and it's costing a fortune.

It's our 45th Wedding Anniversary that weekend and we had been looking at Spain but when you posted the tickets were available, I had to bite. And to be fair, my wife, Breige, was pretty pleased for me... a good woman and largely down to her that we've lasted 45 years.

Haven't even got round to emailing Andy C for your contact details but wiil do shortly.

Tony,

"Tonight was a success because the people who came out to counter protest never actually had anyone to counter, so let's hope it stays this way."

They could have broken into and looted shops — but didn't, as far as I know.

They could have trashed local libraries — but didn't as far as I know.

They could have attacked the police — but didn't, as far as I know.

See the difference?

Great stuff, Brendan, have a fabulous time and celebration.

Of course I see the difference, Brent, but these peaceful people who came in peace might not have been so peaceful if the others had not stayed away.

I've said a lot on these pages, Brent, and I'm sure I will have convinced some people that I might even be far right, but I'm not completely stupid, and if you trawl back through this thread I'm sure you will find I have said somewhere that any building that is used by the public is an attack on civil liberty.

That's great news for you, Brendan, so I will go to Goodison, explain the situation and see if they will give me a couple of paper tickets.

And if I'm successful (meaning they let me do this rather than having to get someone to pass on the tickets) then I will send them to you and you can cherish them before you come. 👍

Tony, mate, I don't think for one second that you're far right. And your generosity to others that I've read about tell me that you're an ace guy.

On other nights in the last few days, counter demonstrators have stood in defence of certain buildings; when the far right and other trouble-makers have turned up, the counter demonstrators have not, as far as I know, attacked them, merely stood in defence.

Tony A,

BBC reports are saying that in many places far-right protestors did show up — including Liverpool, Portsmouth, and north-east London — but the cowards slunk away into their slimy pits when they saw the numbers of anti-hate people on the streets.

I wasn't worried about you thinking that I'm far right, Brent, because you have always shown a certain degree of intelligence on this website mate, but maybe you haven't seen some of the videos that have been circulating on “X” which point a more realistic version of events, with regards to some of the things that have happened this past week.

Just to reiterate, anyone who doesn't want peace, is an absolute lunatic imo, and that song that I'm sure became the emblem for the great Martin Luther King, is something I will cherish until I die.💙

The BBC, don't fill me with much confidence, Paul, but I hope this is the end of the unrest.

Seriously, Tony #596

You're already doing more than enough for me.

We'll be arriving in Liverpool on the Thursday so whatever is handiest for you in terms of passing on the tickets will work for me.

Tony,

I'm not sure I'd rely on X / Twitter when a whole range of TV channels are reporting.

Anyway, what do you mean saying I "have always shown a degree of intelligence"? Only a degree?! You cheeky bugger! Wait till I see Dave!

Take care, Tony.

Brent #593

Very interesting observation: the anti-hate group caused no trouble or destruction.

The ‘defenders of the English realm & culture' caused damage, destruction and looting.

Yet the anti-immigration mob ‘have a point' & should be listened to. Well until they rub their 2 brain cells together to make fair and coherent points and also address the structural issues that have created the existing ‘problems', eg, acknowledging the effects of the British Empire, the looting of other nations, the divide and rule that was created in those times, the promotion of racist ideology and homophobic views, then I'm personally not giving them any credit.

Integration is definitely key but it's a 2-way street.

I'm away, Brendan, so I can get Dave to meet you, which would not be a problem but it might be better if I can do this because the other ticket will need upgrading from a child to an adult and I wouldn't want any mishaps whilst you are going into the stadium with your wife.

It would be nice to get you back for all the times we haven't quite seen eye to eye, Brendan, but I'm not Michael Kenrick, and I don't want to upset any genuine Evertonian just so I can look dead clever!

“I repeatedly cite these studies not because I am some kind of purist (can't afford to be as a second generation immigrant) but because they are emphatic proof that the successive waves of immigration (French, Italian, whatever) that people are touting as a precedent to current trends, were in numbers so small that they barely left a genetic trace. That's unassailable, as Barry might say.”

Peter, I notice you have yet to state your particular genetic expertise. Reading papers and believing you've understood them is no proof. If you were writing the papers it would be different. For instance, you do realise that they have to rely on a small number of distinct genetic markers for this sort of research which will leave huge margins of error.

“They added their stock to the same Celtic genetic material that are the predominant component of the English today, 10-40% as a crude figure.” That has to mean 10-40 % of the ‘English' (from a limited study) had Anglo-Saxon markers. There would never have been something like a 100% only Anglo-Saxon genetic make-up.

You skirted the most relevant points I asked you about regarding your rejection of the points raised by others. Did the Celts supplant the Picts? Were the Angles and the Saxons ever actually noticeably genetically distinct from their Celtic predecessors?

All genetic homogeneity for hundreds / thousands of years may prove is that any mixing of native and not very different immigrant invaders happened quickly and universally which wouldn't be a big surprise in a country with a much lower population where the real hardships of just surviving put any notion of harbouring long term grudges against immigrants who looked pretty much the same as the natives in perspective.

Essentially, we were ‘mongrels' (not to be confused with Mongols although we all know the claims for Ghengis Khan) by circa 600 AD and then invaded by equally ‘mongrel' people.

“It seems that this unrest has been a long time coming and has little to do with the heinous killing of children in Southport but surely you are not ignorant to the litany of other flashpoints that have occurred over decades. We even had a potential one just prior with the stabbing of a uniformed soldier.”

Cherry picking works both ways. I lived in Southport many years ago when a young mother was horrifically murdered but although shocked and nauseated no-one was ever to organise mass protests. I currently live in Hertfordshire and a few weeks ago three women were killed with a cross-bow. On all these occasions it was one person acting under their own compulsion but only the latest one has been linked to a community rather than the individual responsible.

We should all abhor all heinous acts and protest them equally. What is apparent with the current unrest is that certain people are only really agitated when the perpetrator can be excluded from anything they would self-identify with. That discrimination should be what makes a fair-minded person distance themselves from these protests.

Paul #594

Thank you.

90 minutes of football and 20 hours plus, shopping.

Boy did I rope her in... big time? 😟

Nick Riddle (523),

Unfortunately your list of ‘Thatcherites' has inexplicably excluded the ‘champagne Socialists' Blair and Brown who largely just doubled down on abandoning the retainment of any robust manufacturing base, threw their lot in with the financiers, and effectively built the foundations of our current cost-of-living woes by the shameful gifting of absolute control of property prices to the banks and an increasingly wealthy minority.

My biggest fear is that Starmer (et al) will follow their lead of simply appeasing the already powerful and influential to be allowed to join them at the trough.

Si,

I will never forgive that twat filofax Blair for breaking his commitment to repealing witch Thatcher's anti-union laws.

That lying war mongerer who turned the Labour Party into a yuppy business "How many stocks you got?" party might have a few quid but his legacy is pure poison for the most part.

Brendan, make sure you meet up when you're over.

0796 600 7546

It will good to meet you and put another face to the name.

For those who haven't seen this, it's on the official website, but here's the link:

Everton Unseen #103: Media Access Day

Great team spirit and I don't think Branthwaite is going anywhere soon. The only notable absentee, unless I missed something, was Calvert-Lewin.

Even by my standards, I'm feeling optimistic about the coming season.

Tony, I wasn't attributing 'two tier' policing to you, I included it because it's a phrase being used by many to justify the violence. My main point was to get the facts before making assumptions and accusations.

Getting permission for a march, if that's what happened, is very different from social media accounts saying there's going to be a march. The only two tier there is the difference in approach from the marchers.

We got one of the bastards, Paul Hewitt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lE-ILzpIL0">Moment migrant discovered in car box as couple return from France

As you poignantly say, PH, we want our country back and as the other one says — Kevin Molloy? — this bastard is breaking up English culture and the fabric of "our" communities and societies.

Thank you, Paul.

I watch the mainstream news, Brent, but it doesn't always come across that there is more than one side to the argument, and I felt the same the other day when someone tried to get me to watch a news programme on YouTube called Talk TV.

There is often way too much point-scoring when people try to push their agendas, and I suppose it's why people say don't get involved in arguments about politics or religion, although I have long come to the conclusion that the only thing that really matters in this world is money, because the world is ruled by money, unfortunately.

The football starts in 10 days, so with it being the first game of the season, I might even read Michael's match report and try and do some point-scoring of my own! Nah.

Still a few tickets available for the Roma match, but not many. Get there early!

@ Si Cooper (606)

I don't disagree Si, but in mitigation my earlier post, I didn't set out to describe in detail how we got to where we are.

It was just an attempt to illustrate that the underlying causes of the unrest were a little more complex than Starmer calling the perpetrators “right-wing thugs”,

Well, I was trying to get back to football, but as we're here.

Right wing, left wing, I've faced them all.

The IRA wanted a left wing socialist united Ireland. The Serbians were extreme right wing, and as for the Taliban, take your pick, but extremist. As I've always said, extreme is extreme, whichever the political divide people sit on.

I've stood in front of all of those I mention, so I feel for the Police and the politicians aren't helping.

As long as any planned disruption, whichever side, don't stop me getting to Goodison on Saturday. They won't.

Danny "As long as any planned disruption, whichever side don't stop me getting to Goodison on Saturday. They won't."

The two sentenced in Liverpool today certainly won't stop you. Sent down for 32 months. Looking forward to Roma.

Si # 696,

There are many people at the “trough” these days. Unfortunately many of them claim to be “labour politicians”. It makes my blood boil.

A “rapper” is getting paid US$500,000 A DAY, for his input into the Olympic Games. The bloke who owns Amazon is worth US$181.5 Billion. Billions upon Billions are being poured into the Ukraine war by both sides. (Who is making huge profits out of that?)

Meanwhile according to the United Nations:-

“Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger.”

New stadium sponsor / partner, Aramark UK
Reported on BBC

Aramark seem to be at the forefront of AI-powered, unmanned food delivery concepts, or something along those lines. So you'll be getting your lukewarm pie and scalding bovril from a robot in the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

I was born in Liverpool in 1940 and left for Canada in 1976, have been back on numerous occasions with the last time in April this year.

If you are right wing or Left wing you have the right to express your beliefs but without the need for violence.

All the information that I have is what I read, and to me it is ruining the reputation of those thousands of Merseyside residents that can express their beliefs in a collective manner without violence and destruction. It is also putting a bad reputation on the fine City of Liverpool that it does not deserve.

It is difficult to say what the answer is, but I believe those in court are finding out that their sentences are a little harsher than what they expected, and the only humour I find in that is the comments of their Lawyers in the excuses of why they resorted to violence

Laurie (617), Regarding your last paragraph, Mahatma Gandhi, the greatest man who lived in my lifetime, imo, said:

“There is enough food in the world to feed the needy but not enough to feed the greedy.” I think that still applies today.

Hopefully get to catch you Brent. I drop you a message or give you a call.

Bill, a totally right message in your post. It doesn't matter which side of the spectrum you're on, everyone can protest, but make it relevant and without violence.

Where in Canada did you settle, Bill? I went to Kingston, Ontario with the military. That is a lovely city.

Dave, I'm only going to have to watch the Ghandi film again now! He was indeed a man who lived by his principles.

Danny (622), Winston Churchill called Gandhi “ That little Fakir” I think he meant something else but he wasn't fit to kiss Gandhi's feet, again in my opinion. I think Martin Luther King learned a lot from Gandhi with his peaceful protests.

Brent @616,

Just looking at their mugshots and then reading this from their defending lawyer:

"Both men wish to profoundly apologise, not only to the families of those killed and injured in Southport but to the police against who they directed their aggression, to their own families for the shame and embarrassment caused to them and most importantly perhaps to the public for the destruction they in part caused, for the impact on public resources and the fear they now recognise their actions caused.”

No way! It's either a false confession or they have been subject to torture by Starmer's Stasi.

Si, I'm honestly sick of banging on about the genetics and almost wish I had never raised it except that it is central to my only real point.

You're probably not wrong on a lot of what you say about previous migrations from similar people but I was citing the explicit conclusions of the studies themselves, so I don't need to be an expert in genetics despite my scientific background, your issue is with the authors.

But if earlier migratory events left barely a trace of genetic evidence because the people's had a largely shared heritage then they bare no resemblance whatsoever to the current pattern, which I still maintain is unprecedented in 1000 or more years.

I raised this objection because of the facile soundbites we consistently see from those who do not want to address the pace of societal change. You can conclude that the English are a mongrel breed as well as any other on the planet but that is a fairly useless deconstructive argument which is equally applicable to everybody and no comfort for those who keenly feel the identity and perceive a threat.

As for the poor Picts, we don't know very much about them except from archaeological records and there doesn't seem to be much consensus on whether or not they were even a distinct, homogenous people. The Roman accounts are notoriously unreliable. I discounted them quite deliberately as they belong to pre-history and explained my reasoning above, they don't factor in one bit to a story of near total English homogeneity going back over 1000 years which has changed dramatically in the last 50 - 60 years and is set to continue in this vein.

Everything I have stated on this point is the conclusion of those that studied the evidence. My own addition has been to proffer that I have doubts that a society can maintain any real degree of cohesion under these current circumstances, which appears to be stating the obvious based on everything that prompted this entire midsummer muse.

All the best, I've got to draw the line somewhere and think this is as good a time as any.

Will @ 538, I have noticed the blustering questioning style on this thread a few times, usually from those trying to justify these disgusting racist riots.

But I have a spare 10 minutes, so I am happy to educate you.

“Is it really? Where have you seen and heard that? Who has been convicted of using their political beliefs and affiliations to organize such in this current, widespread melee?”

‘A polarisation engine': how social media has created a ‘perfect storm' for UK's far-right riots

Revealed: Inside the far-right Telegram messaging channels where UK rioters organise

The three people convicted so far in relation to the incidents in Southport are from... Southport. Not part of some travelling, rapid response Far Right unit, as quickly and ridiculously suggested in the mainstream media.

Ah so it's local riots for local people only? This is from the Daily Telegraph on 6 August.

Liverpool riots: “Lloyd Killner, 35, travelled the furthest distance, 145 miles from his home in Lincoln.

From Southport — more than 20 miles away — came Gareth Metcalfe, 44, Derek Drummond, 58, and John O'Malley, 43. Jimmy Bailey, 45, travelled 18 miles from Little Sutton in Cheshire.”

Rotheram riots: “Other people charged had travelled further, including Lee Crisp, 42, from Grimethorpe, and Curtis Coulson, 30, from Sheffield.

Joshua Simpson, 26, made the longest journey from Lincoln, almost 50 miles away.”

Bristol: “Adrian Croft travelled 191 miles to allegedly join the riot. The 45-year-old from Holywell, Flintshire, will appear at Bristol Magistrates' Court on Sept 5.”

“No-one here is condoning violence and damage but to suggest it's some strategic far-right political plan is simplistic nonsense.”

Who Are the Far-Right Groups Behind the UK Riots?

The foundations of violence: The growth of far-right hate in the UK

UK far-right riots: Everything we know

Far-right forums used to plan UK riots encouraging antisemitic attacks

On the subject of a new musing, Ukrainian Armed Forces appear to have conducted a small incursion into the Kursk region of Russia.

This has swiftly been condemned by the Kremlin as an "unprovoked aggression".

Brought a wry chuckle to me anyway.

Danny @ 534, they seem to have done it.

Link

Michael @ 624, these are my two favourites.

“Earlier, we reported how an 18-year-old who was seen 'celebrating' after launching bricks at police officers during a 'vile and destructive' riot is also among dozens of far-right thugs who are facing justice this week.

Cole Stewart was cheered on as he hurled missiles at riot police who had been deployed to a violent protest in Darlington, County Durham, on Monday evening.

Shocking CCTV shows the teenager repeatedly throwing bricks and other objects near North Lodge Park, with one of them striking an officer.

The teenager wailed 'I'm a child' as he was pinned to the ground by police and arrested at the scene. He pleaded guilty to violent disorder at Teesside Magistrates' Court on Wednesday ahead of being sentenced on Friday.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

“Morgan, who had no previous convictions, was told by the judge that his 'advancing years' did not stop him playing an 'active part' as part of a group 'running amok'.

When the rioters clashed with police, 'you were seen at the front of the mob holding in your hand... a small truncheon', the judge continued.

'I am sure you had [the weapon] with you to cause injury if the opportunity should arise.' He told the court how he resisted arrest 'with such force' that it took three officers to detain him.

Body-worn footage showed the widower telling officers to get off him as they attempted to arrest him.

At one point he said 'I'm fucking 70' and an officer responded: 'Well, why are you at a fucking riot?'

Kevin Molloy, I owe you a major apology and want to make it.

You did not say that you would not want your daughters to mix with black or brown men. It was Kevin Prytherch on post 256 on the thread below:

Link

Your point in the thread was that BLM was Marxist - I don't agree with that at all by the way. But it does not infer you are racist so I was very wrong to call you that.

Sincerest apologies.

Now, now, Steve, don't be quoting the mainstream media. It's all lies. Go on YouTube and find davelaaveshiscaantry.net, some Legatum-funded think tank or one of the shock-jock channels like Talk TV. That's were you find the truth, apparently.

Isn't it strange that, within a few weeks of a democratically-elected non-Conservative government, a completely spontaneous non-racist bout of understandable non-violence has erupted around the country?

I wonder …

It seems it doesn't matter which side you are on, multiculturalism is to blame.

I remember my eldest daughter, several years after leaving school, looking a little shocked as she told me that her former best friend at high school now admitted to being a lesbian. My advice to my daughter was that it takes many sorts to make a world.

Steve @630, Bravo.

Fair enough, that's rather big of you Steve. I accept.

I wonder if we could loan Richarlison back for a season from Spurs now he's turned down a move to SA.

Nick, it came across as you intended even with the omissions. I think that wasn't a card.

And by the way, don't arouse the moderataur!

I've noticed that someone with plenty of time on their hands takes a lot of trouble to edit posts well after they've first appeared.

Usually I think on balance the edits made to my posts have been beneficial. Sometimes, such as with the changes made to the first sentence of my post at 614, not so much.

That'll be one of those pesky editors Nick, those who run the site and have the right to edit as they see fit.
A right we all accept when using the site.

Thanks Dale. You're right, I should know better!

Agreed Brian. I was hoping they'd replace the comma I mistakenly used to end my post at 614 with a full stop, but they missed that one.

Steve @630

Top man yourself.

Kevin @634.

Same to you

Nick, whoever improves my ramblings does a good job.

I could do with a little help with the spellings as well though.

Steve @ 626:

"Blustering". You might want to review your own style. Include in that, properly absorbing what is actually being written/said.

Don't slyly imply that I've tried to justify the violence; quote where I've posted such, why don't you. Revisit my post 538 for what I said about the violence.

No-one here is condoning violence and damage but to suggest it's (all) some strategic far-right political plan is simplistic nonsense.

Reflecting, I should have included that highlighted "all" originally.

This whole situation is not the result of some planned operation by the "Far Right" as you, along with the government and just about all major media are working endlessly hard to imply.

People far and wide have had enough. Many tens of thousands of regular, decent people have protested — people who've never laid eyes on a far-right member in their life. There's been ample video of some of their treatment, for those who wish to look.

You quoted this:

“Earlier, we reported how an 18-year-old who was seen 'celebrating' after launching bricks at police officers during a 'vile and destructive' riot is also among dozens of far-right thugs who are facing justice this week."

Perhaps it's a stupid 18-year-old local thug excitedly jumping into the chaos. Lord knows there are enough of them and we've seen it all before. Have they proved he's a far right member? Did they recover his membership, track some meetings attended, find posts he made in support of their cause?

They are working tirelessly to bracket everybody into this whole far-right classification — as if nothing would've happened, no-one would've taken to the streets, no-one would've protested, absent far-right machinations. Are the recent issues and concerns behind all this being addressed and discussed extensively? No.

You might want to come up with a label for those active in Stoke and Birmingham recently. Large groups of men towards the younger end, dressed in black, openly carrying various very dangerous weapons, unchallenged and unattended by police.

Far.. far... er, near... I dunno, maybe you can help. So far media and police have only come up with gems along the lines of, it's understandable, they feel threatened and it's no worse than you'd see on a Saturday night. Are you okay with this?

Ordinary, reasonable folk form the overwhelming proportion of the population of this country, hugely larger in size than every fringe or extreme group of proven or purported size, added together.

They have the right to be heard and to peacefully protest, whatever their issues — without being blanketed as far right.

Michael @ 586:

That's very snarky of you, Michael. Are you suggesting I want to see heavy-handed policing? Perhaps you're disappointed the far right didn't show?

So, those protesting the protesters were all good - great. I hope the next large group of those protesting the government and shouting different things while being well-behaved, are afforded the same.

Those near Downing Street were not.

Fair credit if was achieved, Steve. Turned out it fortunately wasn't needed.

Although that article did refer to several thousand untrained officers. I'd assume it may have been a lot of what are referred to as volunteer police / special constables. They are very visible here in London making up the numbers.

Let's hope this has died down and the situation diffuses.

Goodison on Saturday

Paul @ 631:

"Now, now Steve, don't be quoting the mainstream media. It's all lies. Go on YouTube and find davelaaveshiscaantry.net, some Legatum-funded think tank or one of the shock-jock channels like Talk TV. That's were you find the truth, apparently."

Wow. They fake all the videos now?

Don't believe your eyes, folks, nothing to see here. Back to reliable sources you go.

It's not all far-right ‘members' protesting but some of it's certainly been orchestrated and egged on by the far-right agitators, aided and abetted by local scallies who just want any excuse for a bit of mindless violence and vandalism, together with the gullible folk who believe what they read on social media.

Everyone should have the right to peaceful protest and to raise their concerns but the key word is ‘peaceful'. When you start setting fire to libraries or looting local shops, then you lose that right and should feel the full force of the law for your actions.

Nothing could be further away from saying that ‘I want my country back' (whatever that actually means) than smashing up the very communities in which you actually live.

I'm all for independent reporting, Will, just good if there's a bit of fact-checking eh?

The Muslim asylum seeking on the list murderer who happened to be a black British man here legally? That was a belting piece of journalism, wasn't it? Almost as good as the fact-checking by the innocent people who took that one in unquestioned and started all the spontaneous protests.

All the 'mainstream' media I consume from UK & Netherlands has its biases. I've baked that in during my 60 years on the planet. The idea that the partisan bollocks I see on the Internet (from all sides) is superior and more real is one for the birds.

I may have made light of Steve's post. I'm actually fucking angry too.

Let's have that conversation. I'm all for it. I'd love to know what people honestly, genuinely think, why they think it, where they want things to go and what the consequences will be.

I'm not holding my breath.

It's an absolute joke!! Police saying the start of the football season could be a trigger for an increase in protest.

This shows the type of people who are instigating this "protest". How can a Football League programme have any bearing on the so-called everyday man in the street wanting to get their point across about immigration?

No! It's just bellends, same bellends who still think it's the 80s looking for scraps at matches, mixed with the local scallies who are just opportunistic looking for a bit of excitement. If it was November and cold, they'd be at home.

I doubt most of these so-called protesters even vote, are even registered to vote. If you asked some of these idiots if they are on the electoral register, they would probably reply "I'm not a nonce, I'm not on the register!"

How people can blame a prime minister who's been in the job a month is ridiculous.

Try blaming the right wing tories, who have decimated this country's public services, while lining their pockets, let the rich get richer while kids have to go to food banks or get their meals from school in the summer holidays.

We have dying patients waiting days in corridors of hospitals because they are under-funded, but give their millionaire friends tax cuts while taking the money from the poorest people in need.

There's enough money, land and resources in this country for us all to live a comfortable life, yet that will never be the case while we have the type of people run the country for their own gain, not for the good of all!!

And Happy 45th Brendan!

This rioting for the most part was not spontaneous as some suggest and to be easily linked to continuing deprivations and suffering (though I'm sure that explains some of the involvement when things kicked off).

This was deliberate and very targeted rioting directed at erm the "illegals" and the Muslim faith. "Spontaneous" does not really work when across the country we see the same targets: mosques, corner shops owned by Asians, hotels apparently lodging those "illegals".

This was planned. It was so predictable. These scumbags took advantage of the killing of three little girls. Scumbag maggots. And then the Tommy Robinson brigade got all excited when the thick scallies jumped in, including that thick twat from Liverpool who did not know the difference between extreme right and extreme left.

Yeah, there was little or no far-right involvement or coordination. How come in Southport, Plymouth, Birmingham, Portsmouth, and I'm sure elsewhere the scumbags were all joining in, fists pumped: "Oh Tommy, Tommy ... " (This, of course, is the coward slime racist from (guess) Luton, who scarpered over the channel when things heated up).

A disgusting evil mix of the far-right, scallies, some who ought to have know better like the 54-year-old Hartlepool school governor, and gormless maggots like 69-year-old (fucking 69) William Nelson Morgan, of Linton Street, Walton, who is spending his first night in prison tonight after making his way to Southport 9 days ago to attack a mosque.

Scumbags like Morgan should never be forgiven for using the murder of three little girls to pursue their racism and to completely subvert the mourning process of three decent Southport families who keep hearing that the killing of their girls is the reason for this cross-country racist mindless violence.

Paul, the people doing the rioting, we all agree, were lowlife scum.

It should not hide the fact that many many people want a large reduction on the number of people wanting to come and live in the UK each year. Immigration was one of the major reasons that people voted to leave the EU.

One and a quarter million people arrived in 2023, admittedly 585k people left the UK last year but that still left an increase of close on three-quarters of a million.

Another three-quarter Sof a million arrived on our shores in 2022, that's way too many.

It's a measure of the crassness of the "Tommy R" so-called supporters that, whilst they're kicking off and getting arrested and whatever their, erm, "illustrious" leader is lying on a sunbed in Cyprus with a cold one!

You couldn't make it up.

Yes, Ray, it may be a fact that 3 quarters of a million net, I'm not going to look into stats. However how many of them were doctors, nurses, carers, teachers, tutors, dentists, surgeons?

Immigration needs to be controlled, but it's the way these "protesters" go about it that makes the informed, thoughtful argument left behind as people in power don't want to be associated with the "protesters" so they weaken the ability for change.

Any informed rational person understands that immigration is a necessary part of the world these days, but we need to control it, so it works for the country, not against it. Easier said than done, I know.

It's not immigration that's crippled this country, it's the years of austerity from the Tories.

Paul Ferry and others we in Ireland experience this same shit before Xmas 23 in Dublin. A school kid was attacker by a foreign national. She is still in hospital with life-changing injuries.

People protested but these protests were hijacked by so-called far-right activists and low-life scum. What's happening in the UK is a mirror image of what happened in Dublin.

I'm a proud Dubliner and Irishman but am embarrassed by these pricks. It's ironic calling these far right as if they are politically motivated and have a legal ideology. Scumbags don't have either.

I'm pleased that centrist left and right and people of common sense have come out in support of your police as they did in Dublin. Law and order has to regain the confidence of the common sense people regardless of their class creed or origin. Police fearing the return of football is a slight on the common sense football supporter.

Authorities and politicians both here and in the UK need to get a narrower brush rather than believing we are all potential mindless activists. I've experienced Police changing the narrative around peaceful protests to suit their end.

I found out today, David, that that individual holds an Irish passport because of the grandparent or parent rule and also has his origins in Germany.

Ironic if he wasn't such as disgusting coward.

Danny @622

We moved to a town called Colonsay in Saskatchewan, population was about 360. In 1975 we moved to the East Coast to a town called Sussex in New Brunswick, population about 1600.

Reason for moving to Canada was mining and have visited every province in Canada since, apart from Newfoundland.

I forgot, Bill, I have been to Newfoundland. We were on the way back from an exercise in California. We had to make stopovers as the aircraft wouldn't make it back in one go.

Firstly Little Rock in Arkansas, and then Gander. We were hanging around the aircraft, stretching our legs when a person came walking towards us.

It was Anthony Hopkins, who had flown up from New York in his private jet. We chatted with him and asked why he was here. "Thought I'd pick up some duty free" was his response!! It always bemused me that some of his fame and money would take that kind of effort to get a cheaper bottle of Whisky!!!

We also went to Montreal, Quebec. Very different and felt like being in a European city. That was very cold. Not as cold as when I was in Norway, 100 miles north of the Arctic Circle, when you didn't want your eyes to water as it would freeze as it ran down your face.

Amongst the various friends I (still) have were more than a few who voted for Brexit. They all say their worries were on immigration when it came to the vote.

EU citizens left the UK in droves as a direct consequence, many of them for years having been working in much-needed public services, creating many, many vacancies for which there were (and still are) far too few UK born people sufficiently qualified to fill them.

So, having effectively expelled so many well-qualified EU citizens the lying Tory government had little choice other than to significantly increase the number of non-EU qualified personnel to urgently fill the crucial vacancies.

The sub-continent and beyond are well off for such highly qualified but poorly paid, in their own country, personnel who are obviously not in the EU so, as a result, there's been a very significant influx of legitimate subcontinental and beyond immigrants to replace the EU's.

Of course the numbers on the boats are a worry but their number is massively dwarfed by legitimate immigrants the country simply needs to survive.

Welcome to Brexit!

And who'd have ever believed BoJo and his rancid ilk could ever have actively damaged the UK for years and years to come, and given rise to Farage and worse?

Peter, my last post on this subject as well:

“You're probably not wrong on a lot of what you say about previous migrations from similar people but I was citing the explicit conclusions of the studies themselves, so I don't need to be an expert in genetics despite my scientific background, your issue is with the authors.”

Sorry Peter, did I miss the links, details of the studies you were relying on as uncontested fact supporting your own opinion? I've seen even clear conclusions of studies misunderstood by people who had the education to know better. I just wanted your background to know whether you'd be considered an expert or just a layman (despite your scientific background).

“But if earlier migratory events left barely a trace of genetic evidence because the people's had a largely shared heritage then they bare no resemblance whatsoever to the current pattern, which I still maintain is unprecedented in 1000 or more years.”

How can anyone be the of judge ‘resemblance' when they are only eye-witness to the current situation?

“I raised this objection because of the facile soundbites we consistently see from those who do not want to address the pace of societal change. You can conclude that the English are a mongrel breed as well as any other on the planet but that is a fairly useless deconstructive argument which is equally applicable to everybody and no comfort for those who keenly feel the identity and perceive a threat.”

Well, no there have clearly been many other human populations in history that have been much more isolated / impervious to immigration, integration and assimilation than the British Isles even after the likely land-bridges to mainland Europe were swamped after the last ice age. Unlike you I think a springer spaniel crossed with a poodle is as much a mongrel as a sharpei crossed with an English bulldog.

It is actually the excuse of the ‘perceived' level of threat that irks me. The cowardice of throwing in your lot with the mob just because times are harder than we'd like and the future isn't crystal clear. The greatest piece of my cultural heritage that I would like to see preserved / retained are the Christian teachings that indicate we should aspire to levels of acceptance, tolerance and charity that the ‘average human being' would consider to be utterly bonkers.

Don (660), yes the problem is that people feel let down / ignored because the ‘pie in the sky' solutions for the problems they were / are facing haven't worked. Now they are denying their own naivety and want to vent their anger on those who said ‘Don't listen to Farage and Johnson, they are self-serving idiots and their solutions will not work as advertised.'

There's something I don't get about the "protests"…

They don't happen in Scotland and whilst they are happening in the loyalist areas of NI they don't happen in the Republican areas.

What is the difference?

Dale #651

Thank you...

Brendan, you may remember a year or two ago, some loyalists were a bit annoyed with the whole Irish Sea border and goods being checked coming in from other parts of the UK.

They saw it as another step towards a united Ireland.

The long-time oppressor doesn't like feeling oppressed. If it's not the taigs having the First Minister position, it's the funny looking lads from Asia running their restaurants and estate agents.

And then you have these morons from Dublin up with them in Belfast holding the tricolour.

If it wasn't so serious it'd be hilarious.

Obviously having experience of Northern Ireland, having family from there and family there now, I feel qualified to comment.

We always knew the IRA and Republicans. The Loyalists were a lot more unpredictable.

In terms of a united Ireland, maybe one day it will happen but I'm not sure it will be as cut and dry as people suspect down religious lines. As long as it is democratic, that is fine.

And, I fear that the Republic would struggle to deal with the backlash from the Loyalists.

To your point Brendan, I always used to say, the Loyalists are more British than the British. I used to drive into west Belfast in unmarked cars but always felt more uncomfortable in the Loyalist area of Shankhill.

Anyway Brendan, don't forget to get in touch when you come over to see the Blues.

A particular kind of "experience" Danny mate that, if you are like my brother and a handful of mates who served there, guides your views and perspectives.

And while of course I do respect you and your family, these are not always the best places to go for impartial comment.

About 74,000 years ago a super-volcanic-eruption took place in a place called Toba, in present-day Indonesia.

It wiped out 9/10ths of humanoid beings, and the same percentage of other species (sadly not, though, Koppites and cockroaches!).

The tenth who remained have evolved into what we all are, a small species amid way larger species, plural.

So, get a grip you extremists - you who so readily attack what you seemingly identify as non-of "us".

We're ALL "us"!

We had to be impartial Paul. The same in other places around the world. But I get your point.

Don, your post made me laugh, especially the comment about Kopites and cockroaches!! Cockroaches were a nightmare in Cyprus. They were gigantic!!

When is the Roma pre-match thread coming up?

Cheers Danny, have a great trip and time on Saturday, the start of our long goodbye.

Hi Brendan, I'm so pleased that you and Briege are going over. You'll have the best ever anniversary (both of you!!)
Did you get a note of my email address? Contact me and I'll give you Tony's details
Also, I'll email you a few tips about the Harlech etc. There's some dodgy characters frequent the place before the match and naive Irishmen like you and me are easy prey!!!

Apologies Si, I will add one more thing as I think your post deserves a link. I am assuming that you were not inferring cowardice to me as I've not thrown my lot in with any of the mobs.

Link

The article will either stand or fail on its own merits, I won't comment on it.

But I will say, if you cherish a Christian part of your heritage then you are likely in for a disappointment. There are plenty of studies to indicate that.

I wasn't going to post another thing but Sean Kelly's last paragraph, and especially his last sentence, in post656, basically says what I was trying to say when I began this debate, because this happened in Liverpool, last Saturday afternoon.

You have shown a lot more eloquence, and got your point across much better (at least to me) Sean, so thank you mate.

That graph is from 2010.

Danny, when I was a kid I asked my dad if we were Irish or British?
He said “we're English son, only the Northern Irish are British”!

Without getting too political, although this is an open thread I would like to air my views on a few current topics.

I was reading this morning that quite a large group of Ukrainians living in the relative safety of the Warrington Area, have elected to return ' home ' to be with their husbands, fathers and families, despite there being no end to the current attritional situation. So, effectively are returning to a war zone I totally admire these people's courage in risking their lives and those of their children to be re-united with their own!

The relevance of this concerns all these 'so-called immigrants' enjoying accommodation in hotels and enjoying all the freebies that also are on offer. Now most 'claim' to have escaped a war-torn country, but many have been proved to lie about their country of origin, conveniently having no ID or passports.

Many also have Criminal pasts that have escaped any examination. No wonder people are protesting, but having said that, I don't condone violence against the police or innocent shop owners et al.

I am not racist and never have been, but I am increasingly worried that all these people are entering the country with nefarious intentions. Mostly young men and a few young women.

I grew up as a child, reading a lot of Greek Mythology as opposed to much of the children's literature that was around at the time. I distinctly remember the story of 'The Trojan Horse' … need I say any more?

My father who died over 30 years ago, always advocated that any 'scroungers', yes, they do exist, or people coming into the country for their own advantage, and not to benefit the country as a whole, should not be entitled to any state benefits. He also believed, and in my opinion rightly so, that it should be like a bank! They will not let you draw money out if you haven't deposited, unless you do it when they are closed illegally!

Ex-eerviceman and people born and raised all their life in this country are not even allowed to claim some of these 'benefits' that these immigrants are being allowed to get away with!

No other country in the World is as soft as we are seen to be from an outsider's point of view. Crime Statistics have risen since the influx, where the perpetrators claim to be unable to speak English, are given an interpreter (not cheap either) and generally say 'No Comment'! It almost beggars belief.

We are not a rich country in global terms but portray a benevolence which contradicts its resources. Surely this cannot continue without disastrous consequences.

I for one care, but seem powerless to do anything about it, with politicians on both sides of the electoral spectrum encouraging it. What on earth is going on?

"Don't want to be political" then goes straight into an anti-immigrant rant.

Derek, do us a favour and stay away from all those fact-free right-wing sites you're visiting on the internet. They are warping your mind.

Here's my take on what's going on, Derek. We're among, I think, the richest eight countries in the world. We chose to shrink our labour market by 'encouraging' relatively younger, fitter, healthier EU citizens to leave the country. We currently have a large and growing number of 'economically inactive' people, who are choosing to not work or work less. We have a large number of asylum seekers waiting to be processed, during which time they can only 'apply for permission to work' within one year of arriving here.

What do we do? The obvious start is to clear the backlog, which, to be fair, Sunak had started to do. The French have offered a facility where people can be screened and approved. The last govt refused that offer, this one should take it up. I'd also allow refugees to work a lot more earlier. The quicker they work, the quicker they pay their way, contribute to the economy, integrate, etc. At the moment we are teaching people to cope without working. In a previous role I encountered some annoying experience of this.

If that's a shocking idea, lobby your MP to let them work up here. Lots of space here, and a chronic shortage of staff. I'm often asked by holidaymakers why so many places are closed in the Highlands - Brexit took much of the staff away. All these NC500 holiday folk need feeding!

The interpreter thing is nothing new. I saw it as an Immigration Officer in the 1980s. You do have to able to speak with people, hear their story and judge it's credibility. There are more interpreters available now than in my day.

It annoys me when people associate Scousers with criminality,so I don't assume other people are criminals. If they break the law, punish them, deport them if necessary. Under EU legislation, we could deport EU citizens that were not paying their way. I'm sure it's possible to do this these days, subject to genuine health issues.

I suspect the 'criminals' aren't in the Holiday Inn Express, they'll be already 'working' in the underworld, the black economy, the sex industry, the car wash or nail bars.

Complex problems require thought, critical thinking and usually, complex solutions. We play this right, we get vacancies filled and have reason to deport some of the others.

Frank #675.

It was hardly a rant, just someone with an opinion different from yours.

How about you stop telling other posters what to do. Ooh irony! 🤣

Danny #667,

We had to be impartial you claim. I think the people in Derry and Ballymurphy would strongly disagree with you.

As someone from Belfast, can you give it a rest.

Hi all, looking for some help in regards to tickets for the Brighton game. All sold out but wondering if anyone knows anyone who might be selling their tickets as I'm struggling with the new resale platform as it looks like you can only buy from people you know in your network.

Been an Everton fan for over 40 years and been to Goodison loads but never ever stood on the Gwyladys Street in all my life! Have to do it this season so any advice on the new ticketing system and how to get tickets would be appreciated.

Andrew, if no one on here can help you, have a look at Sportsbreaks.

Ticket and hotel, not particularly cheap, if needs must...

Cheers, Paul, I do look at Sportsbreak regularly most seasons but don't recall ever seeing Gwladys Street tickets tbh but I'll keep looking.

Appreciate any and all ideas. 👍

My take is that immigration is a major issue right now and believe the majority of people who attended a rally in Liverpool to protest about this are not far-right thugs.

The police letting the Palestine march go right up to the immigration protest was possibly, probably or definitely pre-meditated, and this is the best way to split the population over an issue that I have been hearing loads of conversations about for quite a while now.

Racism is racism, but having an opinion or attending a rally about immigration is not necessarily racist — but try telling any alleged right-minded person who has got a closed mind, this.

If Starmer doesn't acknowledge this then he might just open the door for Farage, who is a man who has already done this country a lot of damage, imo.

Chelsea have agreed to pay £54 million for Neto from Wolves. How are they able to spend endless money?

Chelsea = carry on spending, transfer policy of do what you want, don't end up getting points deduction.

Everton = put on naughty mat, incoming transfers have to be signed off by the Premier League, list of players provided of who they would consider selling and then get points deduction.

Two-tier Premier League clubs and governance that goes with it.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having concerns about immigration, Tony.

It's always a better argument when it's rooted in facts, based around solutions and unaccompanied by violence.

One issue here, which I've noticed wherever I've lived and worked in England, is that migrant groups are better-organised and focused around getting help, whereas the locals tend to be less so. And that vacuum can sadly result in the kind of violence we have seen.

Tony, it's hard to voice any sort of view on these issues without polarising opinion. Personally, I think there's a clear thick and thuggish element to the anti-immigration that extremely exploitative politicians and commentators have tapped into. The mainstream media seem to give these arseholes undue coverage too (why not the Greens for example who got the same number of seats as Reform?).

Is it a big issue beyond the thick and thuggish element? Yes, it seems to be. Some people see their neighbourhoods and communities change and don't like it (understandably because not enough is done to help communities adapt). Many aren't touched personally in any way but seem prone to fearmongering.

The real issue, in my view, is the cost of living, inflation, and poor social services etc etc. This really hurts the poorer end of a native population already fed up at its lot.

This is not the fault of immigrants, who are here to deliver (often) low-paid jobs and services etc that native workers don't want to do (or won't). This is the fault of the global crash, the pandemic, Russia v Ukraine and Brexit all combining to leave us poorer (and possibly Tory policy concentrating wealth at the very top end at the expense of the middle and working classes — with all the empty gestures about immigration a misdirection).

Starmer has it right in my view focussing on the necessary switch to green energy, finance and a digital economy because a failure to do this will leave us adrift of countries like Poland if we are not careful. Whether he delivers is another matter.

If he does, and the country becomes richer and fairer as a result, then the issue of immigration becomes less significant. And if the issue is one of culture clashes — then we should probably rejoin the EU rather than rely so heavily on even cheaper labour from the rest of the world.

Just noticed Lee Carsley made interim England manager

Well said, Robert...

Applause!

Robert @688.

If we just stopped the boats from coming over, that's problem solved

The New York Times published an article today that should make every Merseysider proud. Since it's for subscribers only, here's an edited version so you folks can see it:

Liverpool Sends a Message to Far-Right Rioters: Not Here

The city in northern England has a long history of protest. That tradition continued this week, with counterprotesters delivering a firm rejection of anti-immigrant violence.

The residents of the southeast Liverpool neighborhood of Edge Hill had spent Wednesday preparing for trouble.

Parents were called to pick up children early from nursery school. Shop owners pulled their shutters down over glass storefronts. And in the semidetached brick houses on and around Overbury Street, where generations of the same families have lived alongside newer arrivals, locals pulled their curtains as evening approached.

What they feared was another night of the anti-immigrant violence that had rocked the country in the week since a deadly stabbing attack nearby in Southport that was falsely rumored as being carried out by a migrant.

What they got, instead, was a night of near celebration by people opposed to the racism and anti-immigrant sentiments that drove the week of rioting in cities and towns across Britain.

People in Liverpool had been especially unnerved since an online list of what were said to be new far-right targets for protests included a local charity that works with asylum seekers. Neighbors texted neighbors to head to the streets to counter any racist rioters. Local unions and leaders of neighborhood mosques also put out the word, as did a nationwide collective called “Stand Up to Racism.”

So as helicopters circled overhead on Wednesday night, and police officers on horseback patrolled the streets, young women handed out snacks and water bottles in front of the boarded-up windows of the targeted charity. Another group set up a makeshift first aid area across the street in case of emergency, given the unbridled violence of the past riots. And a white-haired man with a long beard propped a megaphone next to a speaker on his metal walker and played peace songs.

People carried signs reading “Not in our city,” and “Will trade racists for refugees.”

“They all had one thing in mind; it was to not let this hate get a foothold,” said Ewan Roberts, who manages Asylum Link Merseyside, the charity that was on the target list.

And then, the far right was a no-show.

In some ways, the gathering of hundreds of antiracism demonstrators was not unexpected in Liverpool, a multicultural city with proud working-class roots.

But similar protests were staged in cities across England on Wednesday night as thousands of people angered by the earlier violence decided to make their voices heard. That violence had included rioters trying to set fire to a hotel in the city of Rotherham while asylum seekers and other guests were inside. Some rioters pummeled police officers so hard they had to go to the hospital. A fire was set in a community library on the northern outskirts of Liverpool over the weekend.

Some of the Liverpool residents who turned out in force Wednesday were especially angry that what set off the spasm of violence was a lie about the deadly knife attack that was promoted again and again online.

“They are using a tragedy to promote this hate,” said Jasmine Galanakis, 27, who put her young daughter to bed in their home up the street and then joined the crowd on Wednesday evening. “So many people in this community come from different backgrounds, and it's ignorance driving this. It's just an excuse for hate, and we won't stand for it.”

The threats in this sliver of Liverpool had been made against Asylum Link Merseyside, the charity that Mr. Roberts manages. He and the staff decided to shut its doors temporarily at the start of the week and bring in carpenters to board up the windows and doors to minimize damage if the building was attacked.

As he watched people gather peacefully in the streets, he said he was moved by the diversity of those who came out to express their support for asylum seekers.

It was especially affirming after years of railing by the former Conservative government against the number of asylum seekers — and its attempt to deport them to Rwanda despite a Supreme Court ruling that the policy was illegal.

As the evening light turned golden and night slowly set in, one young woman raised a sign that read, “The Enemy of the Working Class Travels By Private Jet Not Migrant Dinghy,” to applause from many standing nearby.

Matty Delaney, 33, who lives just outside Liverpool, said he had heard on Instagram about the demonstration against racism and thought it was important to deliver a clear message to those who had rioted, particularly as a young, white, working-class man.

“We've got more in common with an Indian nurse, with a Black bricklayer than we do with the Elon Musks, the Nigel Farages, the Tommy Robinsons, of the world — all these people who are stoking violence,” Mr. Delaney said.

Mr. Musk, the billionaire owner of the social media platform X — where disinformation about the initial attack had been allowed to swirl — threw himself into the fray this week by saying, “Civil war is inevitable” and accusing the prime minister, Keir Starmer, of not protecting “all communities” in Britain.

By Thursday morning, the rhythm of daily life had returned to Overbury Street. At St. Anne's Church, next door to the charity for asylum seekers, a local family gathered for a funeral. Discarded placards from the night before lay on the ground nearby.

Does a digital economy mean a cashless society, Robert?

I have arguments with people over this issue on a very regular basis, because Thatcher's Britain scarred me and I don't believe our city would be what it has become now if it wasn't for that black economy.

The New York Times never loses an opportunity to put the boot into the UK. Now they seem to think the country is convulsed with thuggery and race riots.

The whole thing is, to coin Marianna Spring, 'disinformation'… and disinformation with a horrible purpose. People like Robinson and Fox are state actors. They are whipping up a fury, and now come the stormtroopers.

Just watch Starmer, and buckle up for a raft of new legislation. These bastards have locked us down before, and they are itching to get us back there.

Face recognition ID, digital passports — they've got it all ready to go. Just as they had Zoom ready to go before the 'pandemic'.

Yet more nonsense, Kevin Molloy.

I read the New York Times every day and the idea that its journalists and editors never miss a chance to have a dig at the UK is gormless bollocks.

Oh, by the way, if you had managed to go back a couple of posts, you would have seen Mike Gaynes praising the New York Times for its coverage and comments on Liverpool. You could even read it for yourself as Mike has kindly posted the article in full.

But, be careful, Kevin, massive fecking red warning flag here, the article says things that utterly contradict your incisive opinion… but what the feck — you can just glide past them in a Molloy swerve.

And also, by the way, England was "convulsed" by race riots, 243 at the last count, but perhaps that is not "convulsy" enough for you.

And, there's the giveaway, the real McCoy (Molloy), some good old conspiracy theories and, priceless and just for good measure, deploying your acute sense of politics and reality: "Oh Tommy Tommy" is now revealed in all his collusive glory as a "state actor". Jesus wept.

How's "English culture" doing today Kevin? Has it been a good day?

Chelsea got their grubby hands on Neto today and also an eighth - EIGHTH - goalkeeper for 17 million.

Spurs just picked up Solanke for 65 million, so why oh why don't we have a stab at a loan or whatever to bring Richy back home where he will be much happier.

Do you, Paul? That explains a lot.

Yes, I did see Mike's post, hence my own by way of counter.
I love your sneering at English Culture. What on earth then are you doing here, logging onto an English website to check the progress of a grand old team?

Just cos it's not dressed in a kilt doesn't mean it's not culture, Paul.

I think English culture is explained best by Alicia Keys when singing her song “Empire State Of Mind” about New York!

It's obviously different in different parts, and you can still meet that “stiff upper lip” in certain places but, being from the city, I think this song explains a lot of cities in the western world.

Kevin, you do not or are unable to respond in any substance or depth to support your. nonsense about the NYT. Can you point us in the direction of this God awful NYT putting the boot in? Now that would be a genuinely useful contribution, instead of silly generalisations and daft theories. I notice that you didn't respond to the number of race riots. Bit on the low side for you?

Actually, Kevin, I am somewhat pleased to be English and enjoy English culture but not your "English culture" of the little Englander being eaten up from all sides by Johnny (Dimitar, Andrzej, Faheem) Foreigner.

Instead of addressing the issues you raise - have raised, always raise, seem to never stop raising - there's a bizarre little NYT stab at me for supporting Everton. Says it all really.

Oh, and this one is a good nugget too: reading the NYT (I also read Ken Barlow's Guardian) says it all! What's your newspaper of choice Kevin, and I promise on Lord Sheedy's book not to judge it?

That's not English culture Tony, it's Liverpool culture. Hope you're doing well, looking forward to Roma, and enjoying the newborn.

Paul, it's legion, here is a summary from a couple of years ago, it's not got any better since then.

https://unherd.com/newsroom/even-british-liberals-are-exasperated-with-the-new-york-times/

Ah, so it was my English culture you were sneering at. I see. Eaten up with fear from Johnny Foreigner. What is it, 1986? This seems a rather hackneyed argument now.

Lefties such as your good self are prevented by your philosophy from seeing things that should be as plain as a pikestaff. We are taking in too many people for it to be sustainable. 1.2M last year alone. It's nuts.

It's like adding a new Norris Green every two years. We already have the example of London, it's time to say, "We don't want immigration running at a million a year." That is the full extent of the message.

Does anybody know if KJT is Blue or Red ?

I've got suspicions that the likes of Robinson, Farage are state actors too. Not the British state.

And my other suspicion is that some people outside our country have organised this nonsense to destabilise a democratically elected non-Conservative government.

And I started working on Zoom well before the pandemic. Kept my business going, my clients happy and let's me do most of my work from home up here. The previous government and Reform Ltd have both called me unpatriotic for working the way I do.

Paul,

There's definitely something funny going on. You can trust the mainstream media as far as you can throw it.

The public sector adopted Microsoft Teams incorporating Zoom weeks before the Covid scam. And it was ready to go when 'disaster' struck.

"Hackneyed" Kevin? 1986? Quite the reverse. Dimitar, Andrzej, Faheem Foreigner has never ever been as potent, poison, and popular as it is today. It's runs like a commentary through England through the decades and was behind the huge number of race riots we have just had with more to come.

Ah, the "hackneyed" lazy Guardian lefty stuff.

How's your Brexit been Kevin? Not good it would appear.

It was not your England in particular Kevin, unless you fit into my stereotyping. You've trotted out the 1.2 million to death on this thread Kevin. That number does not tally with Home Office stats, by the way, but perhaps they do not include this dangerous threat to English culture - who seems quite nice and well-mannered, by the way - who is eating up England bit by bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lE-ILzpIL0

Thanks Mike. I'm looking forward to my trip home tomorrow. I'd be surprised if anyone tries anything on with what looks like 30,000 or so Evertonians in and around Goodison.

Hopefully it has petered away.

I have to admit, I rarely carry cash these days. In fact I have to remind myself to take some out when I go to Goodison!!

Kevin,

I accept that the government is working hard behind the scenes to cook up new methods. Some of them will be cruel and barbaric like all the stuff that went on behind the scenes in Northern Ireland (one of my best mates was in intelligence over there, undercover, he can tell you things that would make your hair raise).

The Civil Service adopted Microsoft Teams for meetings/training because they were already using it for messaging and it was, therefore cheaper on the public purse.

Zoom is a completely different product with different ownership. Many corporate organisations still do not use Zoom because of serious security issues 3 years ago. It's also more expensive.

I picked all of this up in the course of running my business before, during and after the lockdowns.

Paul thanks noted. I'm not talking about the civil service specifically.. I'm referring to local government.

They took on teams weeks before, so it just hoved into view with perfect timing. Zoom went global at exactly the same time.

Yes, you can say 'I was using it before' but there's a big difference between something that a few people were using, and then it being ready to be used everywhere.

Zoom and Teams, ready, in the nick of time. We couldn't have locked down without them.

Paul

Yes, Northern Ireland is a whole different thing. Again, we aren't being allowed to see the full picture. We are being manipulated like fuck though.

Trust Nobody.

I kind of see your point, Kevin, but I'm not sure. I started working on Webex 10 years ago and pre-pandemic I was doing lots of virtual work. Teams undercut Webex with, in my view, an inferior product. Zoom saw an opportunity and took it.

I was picking up more virtual work with international organisations because of its sheer convenience. I think that would have carried on increasing for economic reasons. Lockdowns certainly accelerated it.

Dave # 702.

She's a red shite. I would still like see her win the Olympic gold medal though.

Paul F, I could probably swap stories with your mate.

Most of the time it was okay. Apart from being mortared a couple of times and nearly shot down in a helicopter.

I too was in military intelligence and surveillance.

The majority of the people were fine with us.

It will be great to get back to football.

There are some decent sized prison sentences being dished out, and Starmer has already gone through with his decision about spreading online hate and, watching the news, I can see that someone has been given jail for this today by our very independent judges. Thanks for that, Brent!

I used to think that Tommy Robinson was all about “hate” but I'm sure I read he got over 100,000 people to hold a very peaceful protest in London a few weeks ago?

This doesn't mean that the leopard has suddenly changed his spots but, after seeing a post which was showing a video Robinson, had made on one of my WhatsApp groups, I decided to ignore it until everyone started commenting about it, and saying how it was mind-blowing and how it definitely exposed a few people.

It wasn't exactly mind-blowing, but it did expose how very corrupt life can be (he did this by wearing a secret camera because, after initially speaking to people about a court case, nobody was prepared to make a statement, after giving him a totally different version of events).

When I was telling my very open-minded friend, who hates anything right wing and bores me to death with his hatred of Donald Trump, about this video, he asked me to send it to him. I did, and he also said, “That was mind-blowing!” But I've always had a real mistrust of the establishment, meaning that nothing in the video surprised me at all.

I won't be going to Goodison tomorrow, Paul, saving myself for the real stuff next Saturday, and the baby is absolutely brilliant. I have had four kids, and have also got a stepson, but I don't think I've ever looked at a baby in such amazement before. 💙

Wow le Bleu equalise in stoppage time

Lovely to hear Tony; Dave once told me that he looked at you in pure amazement when you emerged from the womb ...

The problem I have with these sentences is the fact that four Just Stop Oil peaceful protesters got 4 to 5 years. What did they do? They stopped the traffic on the M25!

Obviously setting fire to vehicles, library hubs, vandalising houses, attacking police officers and police dogs isn't as important as stopping drivers on a motorway.

Danny#713,

The majority of people were fine with us.

Once again, I question this, what majority would that be? Not the nationalist side of the six counties.

Can you please just give it a rest about your experiences in the six counties, I find it patronising and condescending. I see you ignored my earlier post... just stick to Everton-related themes.

Tony, do you have a link to that video mate?

Kevin:

I can't say I've ever seen particularly anti-English bias by the NYT but then I'm not a regular reader.

That article however - well. Straight from the playbook.

I was definitely a lot darker than both his other two children Paul!

I suffered loads with racism during my early years on the “very white streets of North Liverpool” especially off my blond-haired brother, who always used to tell me I was adopted!

I've got twins, one could definitely get a Syrian passport, and his sister would have no problem getting a Swedish one, if they didn't have to produce any papers!

Paul F:

Are you really suggesting all 200-plus protest events were "Race riots"?

Most people Stephen. Not sure where that outburst came from. Apologies if I offened.

Best we get back to football and Everton.

I thought that was just your healthy sun tan Tony!

See you for the real event.

Tony, I remember an article that was part of a larger concern from when I can't remember - sorry, 1990s, I think and most likely in The guardian and that is what I read - on racism in Liverpool, that was substantial and researched, with accompanying maps, pie charts, figures etc. The nub of the matter was that black communities in Liverpool tended to be located in the south and centre of the city and that north Liverpool was well in essence "white".

My old school, St Mary's in Crosby, admitted its first batch of non-white students in the year after it changed from a grammar school to an independent achool. Nearly all Asians from Formby, Freshfield, Hightown, and Blundellsands.

Not my thoughts Will, I'm recycling news reportage. I've read a slightly larger figure. Damn you put me on the spot Will. I would say that just about everyone if not everyone began as a race riot (that was the purported reason), not least because many if not most of them just happened to flare up racially sensitive places in and around mosques, targeted hotels etc., with the far right's well established routine to deliberately cause as much hate and fear as possible.

Danny #723.

Apology accepted not a personal attack on you..but as someone from Belfast, it's all a touchy subject still.

As you say, let's get back to Everton and if I ever bump into you, pints on me.

This thread has brought out the best and worst of us all...

Paul T @ 648:

I can agree with much of what you posted.

Let's have that conversation. I'm all for it. I'd love to know what people honestly, genuinely think, why they think it, where they want things to go and what the consequences will be.

All for it too, but it will never happen. Too much emotion, too much knee-jerk, and too many topics and views are verbotten.

Rob 712

Cheers for that.

I'm disappointed she isn't blue, but like you. I really want her to win gold.

It can happen between us all Will, if we want it to.

Dave, KJT winning gold is probably like Jodie Comer winning an Oscar. Now she's a proper blue!

Paul T, Farage doesn't even hide the fact that he is bankrolled by foreign interests. He is a very dangerous man for people in the UK — particularly UK working classes whom he claims to champion. Tommy Robinson too quite possibly.

Paul H, stop the boats? Then simply accept France's longstanding offer for an asylum processing centre in France. What does that actually achieve for UK taxpayers? Very little. But it will save lives and money.

How unlucky was KJT there, what a brilliant effort. This footy final is terrific.

Rob and Paul.

She did the city proud. A monumental effort against an all time great. She pushed her every inch of the way

What's 'verboten', Will?

I thought KJT was leading going into the 800 metres.

I missed the final few throws in the javelin, and I assume Thiam must have thrown one incredible javelin in the ones I missed, for her to take the lead going into the 800M.

Still, you can't grumble about a silver medal in the Olympics.

Belated Thanks, Tony A #671.

Hi Danny, I think most right-minded people respect you for your service but I'm from a different side with respect. Yours was a job in Northern Ireland.

My father's side were from the north while I'm a southerner. His family fought for existence and to get employment which was denied to them from the other side.

We had relatives shot and killed by the armed forces. Our generations were not to blame for this. I suspect you are younger than me and may have a different slant on life.

Being a southerner, I have a view that no blade of grass is worth a life but there is a different opinion at every corner about tradition. Most southerners don't give a toss about a united Ireland because we can't afford it. Ideology wise it's probably a good idea but financially and practically it's not going to happen.

As I say, Danny, I respect you for your professional career but in no way is it as romantic as you sometimes portray.

My father grandfather and great grandfather, along with some of my uncles, were locked up for being nationalists and for trying to get jobs in Northern Ireland. The current shite going on in your country and mine can never be compared.

Take care, lad, and enjoy your match day tomorrow.
Whatever our differences, we are united in the Everton cause.

Sorry, Danny, we can't afford a united Ireland.

Lovely moving post Sean (737). Really well and respectfully stated from the heart and history. You're my type of Irishman! Intrigued to hear your comments about southerners and unification.

Not doubting you mate, but is that the sense of the general mood or Tom, Dick, Harry, and Jane, we get on with our lives and don't care much about that thing.

Will yes agreed, naughty journalists.

Peter (670), no, I didn't think you had attached yourself to the mob.

Unfortunately, that link is to a 14-year-old article by eugenics and anti-immigration advocate David Coleman who is summarising (cherry-picking?) from even more ‘remote' sources. Don't think you can claim it as guaranteed to be impartial.

You've misread or misinterpreted what I wrote. I actually meant I wanted Christian teachings and values to be the cultural heritage that people are most bothered about preserving, not necessarily Christianity as we recognise it today.

Not that I have a particular desire for Christianity to be subsumed but, as far as I'm concerned, anyone, from any ethnicity and belonging to any other faith (or no faith) can be inspired by and adopt those teachings.

I don't really care what colour or genetic make-up the future British are, just that they are a united and universally admired people. The Catholic Church I attend most often is usually very busy but the only sizeable ‘white' group are the ‘travellers'.

I know churches in predominantly white British areas that are largely empty or have been closed despite the fact there are plenty of baptised people living in the parishes.

If you believe the prophecies (and if you believe the rest why wouldn't you?), the ‘chosen ones' will be a very small minority in the end, with most having strayed from the path.

Personally, I don't believe they will all be under one particular faith, just spiritually aware folk who have done their best to be universally compassionate and fair-minded. I haven't particularly studied other faiths (I think a ‘true' Catholic has as much chance as anyone) but at their core I think good Christian = good Moslem = good Buddhist, etc with the opposite being true.

I'm not always looking that far ahead. All I hope for at the moment is that people don't hijack the high emotions generated by tragic incidents to promulgate their hate and fear-based agendas, and everyone can instead focus more of their attention on the joyful distractions in life — including a resurgent and competitive Everton.

Paul @719,

I have got it on my WhatsApp although I'm shitting myself now we are moving closer to a dictatorship mate.

I could send it to Big Rob, for him to pass on if you're in touch with him but other than that I'm pretty illiterate with modern technology.

Really disappointing Olympics (imo) from Team GB.

We had so many dominating athletes in different disciplines ie world champions, world record holders, people who dominated their sports for years and most of them failed miserably.

13 crappy golds ain't good enough.

Set that bar high Colin mate, love it, unlike that knobhead UK high-jumper who went crashing into the bar at 4 foot 6 inches and that gormless Forest Gump UK pole-vaulter who just kept on running out of the stadium with his pole when he saw "how high" the bar was at 7 foot 2 inches.

Try this, Paul, I don't know if it will work and I'm not sure if Michael, would want to let this roll, but Lyndon should be okay, until he tries to get to Goodison.

Truth on Trial — Silenced, by Tommy Robinson

I might be a football lover but I am going to be a lot more disappointed when the Olympic Games end than I was when the Euros ended last month.

Danny,

If you don't understand why your tales of Northern Ireland are offensive to some, then that proves Stephen's point.

Ignorance is bliss.

Andy #669

Yes...will email you shortly. Appreciate the warnings regarding the Harlech massive but Breige will be providing close protection cover... not that close we're not 18 anymore.

I hate it when she's reading as I post.

Danny O #various

I have to say you are one of the most likable people I've come across on ToffeeWeb but "the majority of people were fine with us" and "I to was in military intelligence"

No wonder the long war lasted so fecking long.

Hope to see you Danny.

Paul #739

It's a very interesting (very loose interpretation applied) juncture regarding Irish unity.

The Northern Ireland Protocol which effectively kept the North in the EU was despised by Unionists and broadly welcomed by nationalists. Yet if it delivers what it says on the tin — the North becoming an economic powerhouse because of the dual access it provides; it could push back Irish unity for several generations.

On the other hand, Catholics will become the majority population probably within my lifetime and, whilst I'm not suggesting that will mean Irish unity, I think it throws up massive challenges to our Protestant and Loyalist countrymen.

I have a feeling that Belfast will become more and more popular over the next few years, Brendan, just like Glasgow did, and just like Liverpool has, now that the outside perception seems to have changed.

Hi Paul,

Unification is not a top of conversation for southerners, Paul. Around the border maybe, but the further south from it you go, it's not on everyone's lips. The exceptions being Kerry and Cork. Cork being the rebel county.

Most of us are apathetic towards the Northern Ireland problem having being fed it by the Northern Ireland-obsessed state media.

My hope is that the younger generations since peace in 1997-98 will quietly move on to everyday matters like housing, education and health. Then you will see a united people's country tolerant of all. I don't care what it's called — just get normal people to agree to live in peace.

Sorry for the long-winded version but we all just want peace and head space to enjoy life.

Tony #749,

I got 4 nights in Liverpool half-board for much less than I would pay for an equivalent hotel in Belfast, Dublin or Galway.

The Adelphi… do you know it?

I'm joking of course but only about the choice of hotel.

I'm actually not from Belfast but Derry (or Londonderry... just in case Danny O is still reading)

If you ever feel like venturing over to the Emerald Isle... I'd be more than happy to repay your generosity. And I don't mean tickets to a Derry City match.

Sean, I've heard the “we can't afford it” argument before quickly followed by the yes we can. I'd hope that the former wouldn't influence the majority's view.

I don't think it'll happen though. All the main southern parties are trotting out the line that they're nationalist parties but votes are all that counts and, outside of Sinn Féin, I don't think the appetite is there unfortunately.

Hi Shane,

I think the finances are what matters. The young generation can't get proper paid jobs here and are unlikely to get to own their own homes.

Once again, the young are heading for Australia as they see no future here. This country is propped up by EU and US money. We haven't a pot to piss in.

The day the money dries up and the multi-national corporations leave town we are screwed. So unfortunately we can afford it. The UK government invests more money per head of population in Northern Ireland than any other part of the UK.

The younger generation are back living with their parents and this is currently one of the driving forces behind the protests both here and the UK. Meanwhile, the view is that others are getting the benefits from the government.

Jesus, how did this get here on a fans' forum? Maybe we will see a bright new dawn with Everton…

Paul F:

Not my thoughts Will, I'm recycling news reportage. I've read a slightly larger figure.

I said "200-plus" simply in lieu of an exact figure. It is larger.

"I would say that just about everyone if not everyone began as a race riot (that was the purported reason), not least because many if not most of them just happened to flare up racially sensitive places in and around mosques, targeted hotels etc., with the far right's well established routine to deliberately cause as much hate and fear as possible."

Purported is the word. Early on, many of them began as simple protests by large gatherings of ordinary people. This whole, organized right-wing agenda thing is wall-to-wall on mainstream media and it isn't true.

This is not to say violence didn't break out in many places, because it obviously did. Of course, no-one's talking about the peaceful protests, including some of the participants' treatment by police, on here or many places else.

So, we come to Wednesday night past.

New, special government units, harsher announced response and penalties, immediately enacted using the magically manifested new prison places (unavailable when releasing convicts back onto the streets during a resource crisis).

Multiple media discussions with legal guests or experts warning people to be careful what they post, lest it be "interpreted" as hate speech or likely to incite riot and disorder.

Against this backdrop, some apparent far-right mechanism makes available in advance, a list of targets and locations?

The New York Times article twice mentions, online, but fails to mention that this list was also published in mainstream media.

'Local unions and leaders of neighborhood mosques also put out the word, as did a nationwide collective called “Stand Up to Racism.”'

We now have organized counter-protesters heading for the stated locations of expected organized far right thugs for a face-off.

Doesn't this rather drive a coach & horses through the current emergency paradigm: speech and actions that might be... problematic?

In spite of pulling their curtains, fearing another night of anti-immigrant violence (NYT), they bit the bullet and headed off to the protester-protests; some with snacks and drinks.

All across the nation they gathered, encouraged by Stand Up To Racism and their partners. Supported they certainly were, because yet again was seen the widespread use of quickly arranged, ordered, financed and distributed, identical, commercially-produced signs.

And then — nothing. Not a single, organized card-carrying far-right thug.

Many ordinary and genuine protesters are likely cowed to inaction by now. Anyone who has attended just a handful will have seen people being snatched from standing on the sidelines with their arms folded and arrested.

Which sentient, decent protester right now is prepared to run the gauntlet of this febrile current climate of baying labellers, and trust in the good old wheels of justice to find their innocence in court, should they be wrongly or mistakenly arrested?

Some still will, and in that regard, they're braver than me.

Job done? We'll see.

I think the sentences being handed down are going to stop this but I feel a bit uneasy about it. I have no sympathy for rioters and looters but it's just strange.

The Nazis paraded people convicted without due process and hung signs round their necks. What we're seeing on X is the modern-day equivalent. Local constabulary naming and shaming people who have been tried and sentenced in a couple of hours.

The harshness of the sentences is a matter of opinion but we did away with stocks and public executions a long time ago.
I'm not the type to go on marches though I might well have attended the Everton protests had I lived there.

What is a peaceful protest will be decided in advance by the police. What is incitement online will be decided by the state.
All good when the fascists are being dealt with, but then what?

The last few days have seen the state flex its muscles. Teenage imbeciles are in jail for lengthy periods for being teenage imbeciles. I used to be one. So did most of us.

I accept that the state must provide security, I mean that's what they did in Belarus. Peace had to be brought to the streets — but I hope not at any cost.

Andy, it is exactly this. All is not as we are being told.

Our subconscious is screaming at us, that there is something amiss. In my view, that something is the fact we are being led by the nose to totalitarianism.

Our freedoms are being suffocated in the name of fairness and other high-sounding principles. When you suddenly see it, you can't unsee it. And we are very close now to the edge, the technology is nearly in place.

Soon, nobody will be able to function without the conditional approval of the state. So you had better make sure you have signed up to all of their edicts.

"What is a peaceful protest will be decided in advance by the police. What is incitement online will be decided by the state."

Those are succinct and wise words, Andy.

I can offer only this, if I may. If you wish to learn more, look up. Up, up and way above government; they're fourth tier.

Look up into globalism, and back a century and more. It's a long road, it's rather depressing and it's not for everyone — but it's where the answers lie.

It all comes down to how much one really wants to know.

I went to London 23 years ago, Nieve. Soon had my eyes opened.

Said it then, say it now: government hasn't a clue about the ordinary hard working class. Treat them like shite but promise the world every election. Dump the world's problem on the working class, you get the response after years of bluff.

If you work hard, pay your taxes, no issues. If you land here and bleed from the state, what do you think will happen?

Kevin,

I'm over forty years in, since my teens.

Not nice, is it?

Will.

Oof, that's a long time to be looking round and realising what a scam it all is.

Covid woke me up. And this rabbit hole, it's gigantic. and bottomless.

Sean #753,

At the end of both World Wars, this country was virtually bankrupt and in hock to the Americans who made huge profits, primarily from the British, in both wars and the British and French in WW1.

Yet in the interwar years, this country saw a massive, nationwide, council house building programme and in 1948 founded the NHS. The goalposts have moved so much to the right that this would be impossible today but we have to ask the question; why?

Governments of both persuasions would like us to think we haven't a pot to piss in but it's a total myth. The issue is the distribution of the huge wealth we have and a Labour government which won't have the bottle, or political will, to alter that distribution and will also continue to allow the likes of Asda, Tesco, Morrisons, Amazon, Google, Facebook, and X, et al, to pay little, or no, Corporation Tax.

The myth we have no money was well and truly blown by the last government who eagerly seized the opportunity presented by Covid to piss 100s of £billions up the wall and into their own and their friends' pockets.

Meanwhile, myself and quite a few others on this thread have lost their Winter Fuel Allowance!

Well, you have it pretty well in that previous post, Kevin.

I won't trawl up the old jibby, but you can bet your bottom dollar, many have subsequently at least had their cognitive dissonance rattled - many that would never admit it openly, and barely to themselves.

David Starkey: Mass migration has destroyed the Britain I knew

Socialism is a cult. It's called Marxism. Fuckers.

“Police investigating the riots led by the far right say they have made more than 700 arrests for alleged offences, and promised “hundreds” more to come.

Of the 741 arrests, 32 relate to online offences such as incitement, and the scale of the operation is shown by the fact the arrest took place in 36 of the 43 force areas across England and Wales.”

Interesting that 36 force areas have been involved in arrests when Will would have us believe that these were spontaneous local protests. He also claimed that the riots were not fomented by right-wing social media activity.

There is still time for Will to join these “sentient, decent protestors” at future protests outside a mosque. It would have the dual effect of allowing him to express his right to protest and give you time for contemplation on whether your fellow travellers are who you think they are.

Will, I'm with you on that and the upper tiers controlling us through our government. My old man always explained to us like this: “The government has their nailed boots on our neck because they are cowards but it's the bastards shouting and encouraging them to press harder. Now they are the real enemy.”

When I say we don't have a pot to piss in, it's plain for anyone to see. They control the masses by keeping them broken both financially and mentally.

People are sick of it around the world. The politicians can't sort this because the upper tier won't allow them and can replace them easily.

Just watching the near end of the marathon in the Olympics, always something magical and special about the marathon even going back a long time before I was born reading about the Italian(?) getting helped over the line and being disqualified because of that help.

Tola from Ethiopia looks like he will collect the well earned gold medal, come on mate you've deserved it.

When a debate descends to the level of conspiracy theories and David Starkey, that's the time to leave.

The world has gone mad. souds just paid £65m for Solanke, whose goal returns for the past four years are
19-6-3-0. That's right Zero, nothing, nada.

£65m for him but some on here would take £20m for DCL, who IMO is a better player

I've played at Solitude, Brendan, (it made the Adelphi, look like a seven star hotel! But I absolutely loved it) and because Derry, is a city that I have always wanted to go, that sounds like something that I might take you up on one day.

An old mate, who was in the Liverpool schoolboy team, that played at solitude, lost his life close to Derry, I had always thought it was Belfast, until I was talking about him not so long ago, and was told it was actually in Coshquin) and the troubles were always something that intrigued me, especially Derry, because you only have to listen to its two different names, to realize it was a split city.

Belfast, was Liverpool with soldiers, especially the people, who welcomed us with open arms, (we were told that we were the first team to visit the province in 14 years) and definitely the Belfast schoolboys team we played against, because we kicked shit out of each other, on the very muddy pitch, and all shook hands at the end. I learned a couple of sly tricks that night, and it is still one of the few games I played in that I remember, even though I was probably one of the worst players on the pitch.

You will love Liverpool, Brendan, and although there is plenty to do, I would still advise a day trip to Chester, because it's a very nice place in the sun.

Tamirat Tola, Dave, has just raced 42 kilometers, and averaged around 3 minutes for every single one of them. Absolutely incredible, I'm going to miss watching this incredible Olympic Games.

"Interesting that 36 force areas have been involved in arrests when Will would have us believe that these were spontaneous local protests."

You should visit a doctor.

Meanwhile... the early morning Olympics feed is on.

Break dancing. Olympic effing break dancing.

The ancient Greeks are upchucking in the Elysian Fields.

Tony,

Now you're posting material from Tommy Robinson as justification for your thinly veiled beliefs? I think Lyndon might take action on this one if someone tells him that the video in question is the subject of a contempt of court charge against Robinson, for breaching an injunction by repeating his libellous claims.

Around The World In 80 Lies: The Story of Tommy Robinson's Libels, Lies and Luxury Lifestyle

Oh where's Robin Leach when you need him?

Nick #763

If you think the franchise, the 5 day working week, paid holidays, safe working conditions, free health care, decent housing etc. etc. was freely given by the ruling classes you need a serious head wobble.
All those things were fought for, inch by inch, and some sacrificed their lives in the struggle.

I was asked for a link to a video, Michael,

Send my number to Keir Starmer if you want.

Tony 770]. I'll miss them too. At present I'm watching the 10m diving comp - and criticising the divers for over-rotation ( after 2 weeks I consider myself something of an expert).

Mike,

"The ancient Greeks are upchucking in the Elysian Fields."

Those Asphodels will never be the same? :-)

Derek, when I was reffing last night, I think one of the players called me an Asphodel.

Or something like that.

BTW how are you my friend?

Okay, Mike, thanks, had a scare a few months back blood-pressure related but almost back to normal now (whatever normal is).

Sorry to hear that, Derek. I had something similar a few moths ago.

How are you now?

Getting there, Paul, turned out I was on the wrong medication, making things worse instead of better.

Still get very tired at strange times and never sleep for longer than 2-3 hours maximum.

I'm on three tablets a day. Usually get up in the night for a piss more than usual. Changed my diet, given up alcohol and have a border collie to walk. Currently high normal so things are going the right way.

Hope the right medication works for you.

Derek and Paul, do regular checks on your breathing pace and depth. Sometimes the variability in heart rate rhythm is a significant contributor to a pressure problem. Address that and you usually can get right enough to then make other changes with better initiative.

Cheers Dale!

PT, a border collie should have you looking lean and mean in no time. That's a lot of walking.

One of the most energetic dogs there is, along with a Belgian Malinois.

Sean (753):

“The younger generation are back living with their parents and this is currently one of the driving forces behind the protests both here and the UK.”

Sean, the current shortage of truly affordable houses has nothing to do with immigration if that is what people are protesting about.

It's a direct consequence of two factors; the general adoption of a properly dual income existence by most middle-class households (the prime drivers of the housing market) and the removal of regulation that had pretty much all lenders sticking to the same ‘two times dual income / three times main income' formula for how much buyers could borrow.

Deregulation was a Blair - Brown project to stimulate the housing sector (which was to be fair probably a little moribund) in lieu of actually doing much to safeguard or reinvigorate manufacturing which would have required more time, money and creativity.

And it worked ‘beautifully' if you didn't bother to look at the long-term consequences of spiralling house prices. Only one politician did voice his concerns, Vince Cable, but he was drowned out by those who were glad to ‘celebrate' the rising prices and promote the nonsense that it's a win-win for everyone. It even became policy to artificially keep interest rates preposterously low.

The property market as magic money tree has been adopted globally but now the chickens are coming home to roost as was the subject of a two-part documentary on the BBC last year with the likes of Martin Lewis weighing in with why we would all (well not the mortgage lenders, property developers and those with a rental portfolio who have made billions off the rest of us) have been much better off if house prices had never been allowed to increase by so much.

There are plenty of houses already, it is just that many are simply lying empty or are now rental properties which won't get released onto the housing market in numbers where supply would outstrip demand and prices would drop. It just doesn't suit those who have / are making their money in housing to allow that to happen.

That's just how capitalism can work when you don't have sensible regulation and simply rely on competition in markets ultimately benefiting the consumer. The big problem with capitalism is that not everybody can get an equal share of every good opportunity; everything tends to diminishing returns when more and more people get on board. Unlike our European neighbours, we did.

What you might see with immigrants, which can be misinterpreted, is that plenty of them do get onto the housing market, quite legitimately. This is due to the fact that many of them are essentially representing an extended family group back in their homelands and can, for good investment opportunities, tap into shared funds.

Some will tolerate living in more crowded conditions than we would see as acceptable. You can't simply assume all immigrants are playing the system to get more than the natives do, but plenty of misguided people will.

Interesting Si, and one thing I would love to see in this country is certain industries becoming regulated again.

The city of Liverpool is currently awash with Uber taxis licensed in Wolverhampton (on a very large scale). My son, who has just bought his house not long before having his first child. Investors have bought the house next door and have converted it into shared living accommodation. Neither of these things do anything to help give a sense of community.

Communities have been getting ripped apart for years, and haven't been helped by the territorial nature of a lot of young thugs, but almost everything goes back to money, because this is what drives almost everyone in this world.

How many far right thugs have caused this latest unrest? And how long have these draconian dictatorship laws been in the pipeline? How long before singing "You lost the league at Goodison Park" could be considered a hate crime?

Si...another factor might be that certain communities don't piss their wedge up a wall. Have more folding by not spending it on ale. Fair play to them.

Tony you're not a million miles away there, about singing certain songs.

If the BBC is to be believed the stewards at Hillsborough will be ejecting Wednesday fans wearing snide replica tops. Only Mrs Alan gets to see my Ray Wilson undercrackers.

After the fiasco of trying to see the Roma game through membership and ticket buying, I would like to ask a question to our international members., and that is about becoming an international member of Everton FC.

I became an international member in 2022-23 season with a follow-up for 2023-24. This season, 2024-25, they have changed it to the age registration benefits.

As most of us live a fair distance from Merseyside, we will have to purchase the adult membership, and to me living 4,000 miles away, there is not any chance of using 90% of what is on offer apart from the 21 and under, women's games, and the full league game shown at a later date.

Let's just say thank you for the gift and leave it that. I may have missed something, but at 84 I sometimes can't remember what I had for breakfast!.

As international supporters, there should be something more that could be offered to an international member than what is offered now.

Just interested what other international supporters think? I did manage to get back this season in April for the Forest, Derby and Brentford, but my tickets were arranged with friends giving up their season ticket seats.

Si,

I never said the housing crisis is solely down to migrants. That's too simplistic.

What I was saying is that young people aren't getting a fair wage that will get them a house. Shit wages coupled with sod all social housing being built by councils.

Governments on both side of the Irish Sea have delegated social housing to vulture funds who are solely in it for profit. Lazy and unimaginative governments and councils ditched the building schemes of the '50s, '60s, and '70s. They consider these estates as being the breeding ground of all that is wrong with society.

This coupled with the fact that accommodation is easily found for migrants has fuelled the fire.

I'm speaking as a father of 6. Two of whom cannot get on the property ladder because, despite saving and denying themselves and their kids any extra, cannot achieve their aim of owning their own property.
It's the mongrels in government that have sold them out but they see others who haven't contributed in terms of paying taxes appear to be better off.

It's not the migrants' fault but they are the identifiable target as opposed to those faceless sods in government and councils.

Sorry for the rant of a once proud Irishman that doesn't believe in the current model of inflating housing prices for the few greedy hedge funds.

Yes, it's absolutely not the fault of people who have come here to live and work. Astonishingly, we have been sold down the river by politicians who have been corrupted. The system has completely failed us.

We are now hemmed in with either government or monopolies everywhere. Soon we will have one big government, one big shop, one news channel. Everyone will be back on the bus for holidays in North Wales, eating ze bugs, but happy dammit.

Since 9/11, it has been one big tightening of the screw. War on terror, credit crunch, Brexit, Covid, Ukraine, climate nonsense, and now WW III. None of these events were on the level, they were all about hemming us in, impoverishing us, and getting us ready for the next shoe to drop.

We never get a chance to draw breath and say 'hold on. this is a crock of shit' before the next crisis is upon us.

Logged in to ToffeeWeb after the summer break and in an attempt to have a change from Musk's Nazi platform.

Shocked to find ToffeeWeb seems to have given up on Everton and sold out to Nigel Fuhrage. Shakes head sadly and logs out again.

Kevin...

Who do you think maybe the people or organisations who are doing the 'corrupting'?

Stephen,

I think the people who are dong the corrupting are the people who ensure that said politicians become remarkably lucky in their financial lives in and out of office. Politicians such as the Blairs, the Camerons, the Osbornes, the Clintons, the Pelosis.

We don't have all of the pieces on the table, this is after all corruption. We won't ever see a cheque made out to A Blair, we just have to keep our eyes open and note events and their consequences as best we can.

And what we can say about the last 20 years is that sovereign governments have been impoverished to a significant degree, with wealth transferring to a new 'billionaire class'.

Tony #769

One of the most depressing days of the troubles. I drive past that spot regularly ...always poignant...more so now.

Ian #794

Every cloud.

Paul #784, lovely dogs mate.

I have 2 Springers; one who is 11 years old going on 3 although he is starting to slow down and the other is 14 months going on, well…14 months. Talk about hyper…

Brendan @ 798,

I think you mean "Please don't go, Ian. The thread will be deleted. We need your positivity to sustain us through the the dark days ahead."

Tony #769

Would be a pleasure to host you. Once you've experienced Andy's "Black north" I can set you up on the Derry/Donegal experience.

BTW. direct flights Derry/Liverpool starting in November bring Dave.