David Moyes casts long shadow over beleaguered Sean Dyche after incredible Bournemouth collapse

Textor deal will be announced and Moyes will be back.

Remember what it was like.

Going back never works.

Unpopular it may seem, but picking Moyes for a bounce in the short term is the right choice. The last thing we need is to change the style of play again where the players have to re-re-re-adapt.

I agree, we won't go down with Moyes — and that in the short term is the most important thing, regardless of how pretty it looks.

There's no-one around to sack Dyche so we'd better get used to him for now. But I agree with one thing, he needs to learn some lessons from Saturday as much as anyone, and pronto.

I think we showed on Saturday for 87 minutes that there's a decent football in them. It just needs someone with modern football knowledge to take us forward.

Clue: it's identical but for a very subtle change in the colour (in this case, 2 greying gingers)

Graham Potter would be my choice — young, progressive, plays good football and would likely get a decent tune out of this lot, the way he did with Brighton.

Will we change managers? No, no we won't.

The only time I have seen competitive football in Europe was under David Moyes and I'm 55. It's not pretty granted but we must stay in the division.

Paul Hewitt @6 agree, we definitely do not lose or even draw that game under Moyes.

I don't remember Moyes setting any unwanted records, may be wrong here but certainly nothing as catastrophic as the two broken in the last 12 months.

Apart from one season when we finished comfortably one place above relegation, 12 points if I remember, I don't remember Moyes ever being in danger of taking us down. Again, happy to be corrected.

The team is much better than Dyches results suggest. He has to go.

Moyes was still getting rubbish off them before they had even found a home for the European trophy he won in their ‘plenty of room' trophy cabinet.

I'm not saying Moyes is the perfect choice but even a slight improvement may well be enough to keep us in this division.

We played Wigan at home around 2008 (I think).

Winning 2-0 going into the last 15 mins.

3 points in the bag.

Moyes took Lee Carsley off. He was playing a blinder as sweeper (if memory serves).

We drew 2-2.

Carsley had stopped everything that day and did not appear to be injured.

Wigan capitalised.

Not anywhere near as catastrophic as Bournemouth - but a glaring error by the then manager.

I also remember him getting the bifters on here for his mediocre substitutions (not going for it etc).

Just saying ……

Edit - this is not a comment on DM as a manager. He did well for EFC in the first few years here before it all got a bit (we thought) stale. Put is back on the map. But everyone makes mistakes.

Too many of the recent Everton managers have distanced themselves from the supporters and look as if they are observers rather than the leaders we need them to be.

I thought Dyche was the right choice, but he seems to find managing Everton as an annoyance rather than an opportunity, albeit in difficult circumstances.

Whether Dyche sees out the season or not, the difficulty of keeping Everton in the division will remain, but it would be better if the manager of the club, harnessed the passionate nature of Everton's support, rather than feel that they are part of the clubs issues.

Our situation doesn't call for us to be too adventurous in the near term, but it does demand that everybody at the club is pulling in the same direction, will Dyche be able to change his ways, and more importantly his messaging, or do we need to turn to someone who we know?

Moyes has similar methods to Dyche, but he is someone we know will demand the utmost from his players, even if he's only slightly better at obtaining results over a season.

There was much that was excellent with Sean Dyche's team and the way they played on Saturday until the 83rd minute. He now needs to build on the positives.

The return of Branthwaite will have a huge impact, Garner or Mangala will make us more solid in midfield while the attacking play of Ndiaye and Calvert-Lewin will ensure we win enough points to reach mid-table.

Not just the old sky 4 to contend with nowadays - City, Newcastle, Villa even Brighton have our number. If he's thinking "no problem It's the same shite as before" he's off his cake. Unless massive money comes in the construction of BMD has done for us for the foreseeable - quite literally we are dead in the water.

But at least Everton would be one less distraction and I'd finally get the house finished.

'Kinell, Moyes

I've thought a lot about Lee Carsley the last few years, he was not fully appreciated as a player, I always rated him and watched him grow as a manager.

Perhaps after his caretaker role is done, he will fancy club management...

Please, somebody with half a brain, takeover our club.

As for Potter, he would want them playing out from the back like Kompany did with Burnley, it wouldn't work with these players.

A question I have for Dyche: You said the players should know you must play for the full 90 minutes plus the injury time. So why did you bring Ndiaye off to get a big round of applause? That signalled to me that you thought the game was done and dusted or am I wrong?

I am absolutely choked with that result. I felt physically sick when that 3rd went in. I posted a quite sweary post on the live forum. So bad I later apologised for it.

However, it was akin to a former Heavy Weight Champion making a comeback, only to see all his effort and brilliance in the early rounds, wasted in a last round beating, ending in a serious knockout and an end to all his dreams.

That result will hang over EFC for a very long time, unless the manager and the players start winning games instead of bottling them.

Great article, Lyndon. Sums it all up perfectly.

PS: £5M for ensuring we finish above 18th. What's that all about?

In those days, Lee Carsley was the first name on my Everton team-sheet (in front of the back 4). Yes — very under-rated.

Of course, management is very different to playing (see Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard and others for reference) but I hope he does well.

There are only 3 English managers in the Premier League. I'd rather we cast the net further.

If Dyche was sacked tomorrow do we have anyone within who could successfully step up for the caretaker role as I haven't seen evidence of any of the Academy coaches being up to it.

And before anyone asks for names, I have pointed out before that almost every Premier League team has made managerial changes in the last two years or so and we would not be the only club to have done so a couple or more times, so there are plenty out there even if we don't have too many, if any, executives capable of picking the right one.

Certainly it may make sense to offer it to a young hungry manager from abroad who's done well in their own league and is up to speed with the modern game.

However, it seems there's nobody to take the initiative to make any sackings or make any recruitment decisions, and no money to pay people off either, so it's a moot point, IMO.

The situation may change once a takeover finally occurs, but that still seems a long, long way off.

If you have the DoF structure in place, it's never going to work unless the DoF chooses the manager. I've no doubt that Moyes wouldn't be Thelwell's choice.

That doesn't give him a free pass, of course.

He probably did let the game slip at the weekend — although the extraordinary nature of the turnaround is beyond criticisms of tactics or subs.

Personally, I think we'd be mad to think about switching manager right now. The weird thing is that so much was coming together and going well that it would be a shame not to see that through.

Rethink that after another few games — look at the performances, look at the spirit in the camp etc etc. Think it through because as much as you can get a bounce from a new manager — there are plenty of sides that shit themselves too early and effectively commit suicide.

Despite a few signings this summer, we are still a weak side — with only the three promoted sides independently rated as worse than us on paper. So let's not get carried away.

Let's say we do change though. What's on offer:

- David Moyes: sacked by West Ham for consistently under-achieving. From afar, Everton fans will say he won them a Europa Conference League title and fair play, he did. But he was sacked before the spending was Champions League level. I think he would keep us up, but I am not sure that fans would really notice any change in manager.

- Graham Potter: sacked by Chelsea after being made to look good by Brighton's extraordinary recruitment strategy. He did do well in Sweden, that's true. But he has a much worse record than, say, Steve Cooper in the Championship and has no credentials whatsoever for digging a poor Premier League side out of trouble. If you're expecting Brighton style football, forget it. You need Brighton style players for that. I think we'd be relegated under Potter. Also young and hungry? He's 49!

Other English-based managers?

Thomas Frank — why would he leave a richer club with a better squad — and how would we afford the compensation?

Kieran McKenna - why, having just spent the £125m on a new team, would he leave Ipswich and threaten his reputation with us? I expect he is reckoning on a shot at the Utd job if he keeps Ipswich up.

Prefer someone a bit more exotic? Well, in the frame for the Brighton job before they went for Hurzeler are:

- Kjetil Knutsen (Bodo Glimt, Norway) led little Norwegian side to 6-1 victory over Mourinho's Roma — but that was in 2021. He's not a young manager either, having passed Normal Minimum Pension Age in the UK. Almost nailed on that we would be relegated.

- Eden Terzic (unemployed after taking Dortmund to Champions League final). Not impossible, I suppose, but seems pretty unlikely he'd take the job.

- Henrik Rydstrom (Malmo) a very unusual coach who completely revised his approach to football and went for a Brazilian style antidote to European / Guardiola style football pioneered by actual Brazilian Fernando Diniz. I mean, he'd be a really interesting appointment for a club like, say, Sheffield United at the top end of the Championship — but it would be a brave soul to put him in charge at Everton where relegation would probably equate to insolvency and a potential Glasgow Rangers style fall from grace. Strongly suspect we'd be relegated.

There will be other options of course — but the problem would remain that we would continue to have a weaker squad to Bournemouth, Brentford, Forest etc. There is no simple fix to this that definitely ends in a better outcome.

Yes, we could get a new manager bounce but those can be fleeting. The reality is that things could very definitely get worse. I think the only realistic candidates likely to keep us up this season are Dyche and Moyes.

How depressing is that?

The reality sets in.

I also have a lot of respect for Thomas Frank.

Let's see what happens with Dyche. I think he's got until at least January, depending on the ownership issue being sorted.

And I am no Dyche basher. He's just been getting his tactics and substitutions wrong so far this season.

You have to ask yourself though, why on earth would he be interested in managing Everton when he has a bigger budget and better squad at Brentford — as well as an excellent relationship with the visionary owner?

I wondered if we'd go for Terzic around the time we appointed Lampard. He was very seriously linked to Palace but they appointed Vieira. His stock is much higher now, so I suspect he wouldn't be remotely interested in managing us.

As far as I know, he holds dual German-Croatian citizenship and once worked under Slavin Bilic.

As for Thomas Frank, we could ruin him, but I do think he could be a good fit.

Let's see how it goes with Dyche. I don't want him to fail, but it doesn't harm to think about options.

I'm mid 30s and the best times I've had supporting Everton were under Moyes… Lest we forget, the many many moons that have passed since the Moyesiah left us.

He was a young manager with us the first time around, he was indeed the young Championship gamble that many say we need this time around (which we don't).

I could give a shite about nice football right now!! Not even 1% do I care about bloody style… Moyes is much older and experienced now, he's consistently finished top half and won a trophy!

I'm sure he's learned from such things and would be a wise old head now. West Ham fans are total wankers and I hope they finish in the bottom half, so fucking bad!! Top 6 for three seasons running and a European trophy!!!

I just want friggin 10th to 12th place!!! Top half would be a dream come true!! I don't want this ginger Lonsdale wearing wool typical English brute tosser leading us into the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock anyway!!!

Who even is Dychy like?!?! Even if we do stay up, do you fancy Dyche to get us a win on the first day to christen the new ground next season? Do I shite!…

Moyes always had it right and knew how to use Goodison as the 12th man… he always made sure there was a big dirty tackle in the first half of a big match at home to get the crowd onside. And it usually worked!

Dyche doesn't use Goodison to its potential! This weekend was a prime example. Attacking the Gwladys Street end 2-0 up in a must-win and he didn't play to the crowd at all!!! Under Moyes, those last 20 minutes being 2-0 up, it would have been a fucking bearpit!!!

Moyes was Dour Dave at best; if he smiled during games, the trainer got the Gripe Water out of his bag.

The only return I would be happy with is Ancelotti.

The club doesn't have much money to trade and an owner who is scared of his own shadow. I don't think there;s any reason nor sense in looking to replace Sean Dyche, when there is no chance in hell of it happening.

For me, until new ownership is confirmed, then as Everton manager, Sean Dyche needs all the support he can get. He's kept the club up the last couple of seasons. Saturday hurts, but Sean Dyche will have to learn the hard and fast.

I'm confident the club will turn the corner but the return of Der Kaiser can't happen soon enough. For me, his presence in the team is massive and is worth a point in each game he plays.

Coleman has been a wonderful club servant and has a good 55 minutes in him these days. For me, Dixon should be starting or they rotate; it's too much to expect Seamus to be the player he was at 28.

Game management and a captain who drives the team on the pitch is needed. Hopefully no more repeats, of last Saturday this season.

Literally, we just need to get 40 points or finish 17th!! How can it not work! Moyes would keep us up! Which would mean it did in fact work.

For those pining for Moyes, keep doing so. Not my choice if we end up changing manager.

I think it's more imperative that we sort out the ownership takeover.

The grass is being laid.

I have it on good authority that Carlo has a clause in his contract with Madrid that, if Everton come calling…

No-one picks up the phone!

I detest Dinosaur Dyche.

He already endured a pauper squad under Chairman Bill's leadership and what's changed?

He was sacked by Chelsea — but who hasn't been? — and apparently the Bayern players didn't like him on a personal level.

Still, I think he could do a job for us despite lack of funds.

We need the ownership issue resolved first and Dyche needs to grasp the nettle right now. The DoF has done a great wheeling and dealing job to actually improve the squad, Dyche needs to take the positives from this and develop the playing style on the pitch.

There were shoots of recovery on Saturday. It's in his hands. The game against Villa will demonstrate whether the players are still behind him, he needs a performance from them (and himself) almost regardless of the result. I wonder whether Thelwell has had a word in his ear in the meantime.

Yes, the club's sale is paramount and the most important factor for the future of the club, undoubtedly. That doesn't mean business decisions can't or won't be made.

Neither do I get the reluctance over David Moyes.

As far as Moshiri is concerned, his stock will plummet if we were to get relegated, so do you think he will just sit back and watch that happen? Whatever we think of this guy, he is a businessman and will want to protect his investment. We've just signed players and kept hold of the likes of Branthwaite, so Moshiri is hardly asset-stripping.

Yes, he wants out but he also wants to recuperate as much as he can with a saleable asset, so he's not going to just allow Dyche to sit comfortably in his seat until disaster happens, even if that means he has to fork out a bit of compensation.

Dyche has now set a number of pretty bad unwanted records in 12 months, at least 2, probably 3 maybe 4. The next one could be our downfall. Those records alone show this is no knee-jerk reaction.

Yes, he kept us up but it's football and it's Everton and you should be judged on the here and now, not on some sort of sentiment over past glories.

David Moyes is a much, much better manager with a more comprehensive CV, more experience in the top flight, much better than Dyche. I certainly don't ever remember feeling this way during Moyes's 11 years.

For those who say you should never go back, well, Moyes did with West Ham and both times he got them out of the relegation zone, the second stint winning a trophy (that's right, an actual trophy).

4 consecutive European finishes I believe, with West Ham.

For those saying give him 10 games, that's over a quarter of the season, we could be adrift by then. This guy is capable of going 15 games remember, he's already done it. Some have even said give him until Xmas, that's half the season, dare we take such a gamble.

I don't believe there is a better risk managed offering than David Moyes at this moment in time. The worst he was accused of was being boring in my book, I'll take that right now as opposed to the ridiculous game management we witnessed at the weekend.

Dyche may keep us up, Moyes would definitely keep us up. The time is now.

I'm no fan of Dour Davie but I'd take him all day long if it meant the end of Dyche.

Also, he's beginning to grate with his strange sayings, a bit like Martinez when everything was "phenomenal' and 'in the moment'.

At least Moyes knows the club and it doesn't really matter if Dyche goes per his replacement, because whoever it would turn out to be would divide the fan base. Better the devil you know… sometimes

I am not sure how much time Dyche will get but, unless he starts picking up points very soon, I am sure if it looks like we are becoming entrenched in a Bottom 3 position, then for Moshiri that would be untenable. Whether that decision is at the next International break in 7 weeks time or in December will be reliant on results.

Obviously a new owner coming in might change things quicker, as most new owners want their own manager in charge.

Prepare for 'Carsball' — what to expect from Carsley's England

There's enough quality here to stay up (with more to come from the new signings), but we've squandered 3 precious points.

Players like Iroegbunam (lacking experience), Coleman (way, way too much influence), Young (too old) and Keane (lacks defensive awareness) will need to take a back seat. We need cool, confident heads.

We can do this from here, but we'll need more than a few weekends where we're pleasantly surprised by results.

Very sensible post. Dyche isn't going anywhere soon and Moyes is the past. If and when we do replace him, we have to be bold and imaginative.

But you're right: for now, let's just hope he focusses on the here and now and uses the new players he has available: O'Brien, Iroegbunam, Ndiaye, Lindstrom, Mangala and Broja.

As well as having Dixon and Garner, it could be a very different Everton if we hold our nerve.

But international management credentials don't often map across well to league football. In truth no-one knows whether Carsley is cut out to manage Everton.

More so than a change of manager, what we really need is a change of ownership — and better players. Hopefully that is resolved soon.

He told me before we appointed Dyche, that Carsley was more comfortable coaching at youth level. I could see him following Southgate's path, but given he's only taken the role on short term, I'm not sure.

I thought Sean Dyche was more culpable than some of the players for the collapse on Saturday, but like you I hope he learns from those last 15 minutes and starts the games and the team sheets with a more positive attitude, like the first 80 minutes vs Bournemouth, then uses his subs more sensibly than he did then.

Stones and Woan have voices too, do they use them? Does Dyche listen? A combination of their opinions might help the situation.

I wonder about his assistants too — and Thelwell — what input are they having? But three games in isn't the time to panic. The next game could tell us a lot about the mood within the camp though.

Danny (47), thanks for your comment, always enjoy your match reports, especially the bits about you travelling here, there and everywhere. A balanced perspective. Keep it up mate.

We are not a Top 6 club — not even a Top 12 — we are a Bottom 10 club. On Saturday, there were a number of positive signs that were ruined by old fashion negatives.

If Dyche — and I said at the start of the season, he is on borrowed time — studies the positives from the game and admits he was wrong in causing the negatives, even though he wasn't on the pitch, and he concentrates more on the positives, we will be okay.

He has to get over his reluctance to use younger players; experience usually results in lack of speed.

Can Dyche change? I doubt it — he has spent too long a career fighting fires…

We pay mid-table wages. There are some decent players in this squad.

Looking at wages isn't exactly perfect as you'll have some players who aren't pulling their weight, but it's as good a guide as any. Transfer or market values have the exact same caveat with the added issue of player age and expiring contracts. Our wage bill will be about 3 or 4 times what Ipswich will spend this season and we'll outspend nearly half of the teams in the league.

We just watched 85 minutes of what that investment could look like. They can play. But most of the time, we watch expensive players reduced to the kind of football you could get out of a journeyman for a fraction of the expenditure.

I don't believe he's over-performing, Unless you measure him against the low expectations that he himself has set.

The lack of imagination shown by a vocal few is a mirror image of this club's failings over the years. The same people probably wanted Big Sam and Dyche as they are also safe, and uninspiring, hands.

While we are at it, why don't we get Stubbsy, Faddy, Davey Weir and captain Nev back? There is such a false romanticism surrounding the dour Scot. A Golden Age that never was. Sure, we got close a few times but his built-in negativity made sure we never cracked that glass ceiling.

If we are to ever progress, we can't keep looking backwards.

Spot on!

People saying he knows the club really is bollocks. He doesn't know anything more about the club than we do. His buddy Billy bullshit is gone. Why go back to a not too nostalgic period in our club's history?

The problem at the moment is Dyche cannot manage a game in real time and the players know this. Dour Davey is the past and we should leave him there.

But I wouldn't want him back. To return to him, I think would simply be indicative of limited ambition, research and execution. If anything, we might be looking for the new Moyes. Carlos Corberan springs to mind.

As Robert T points out, the biggest change will be in ownership. I also think Thelwell's role is crucial. It's up to the DoF or similar to plan and establish a club's identity.

Does Thelwell want us to continue as an organised team, hard to break down but with limited possession and chances? Or does he plan for a different future? There is evidence in the purchases of Ndiaye and maybe Iroegbunam that we might move to a team more comfortable in possession… but there's a long way to go.

If we start next season in the same league but with a shiny stadium to christen and new (well-resourced) owners looking on, then there should be more opportunity to spend and assemble a squad to take us forward.

It will be tough, as the likes of Newcastle, West Ham, Brighton and especially Villa have got the jump on us. But Thelwell has shown the ability to spot a player (Kudus, Minteh, Ndiaye, Onana, Iroegbunam etc). The question will be which style and identity he is building towards — and which manager(s) suits that.

That is not the case for the man with whom some say we should continue. Either way, it could be seen as the triumph of optimism over experience.

We're still a massive job for a manager. But we'll need to look outside of the types that the lazy media come up with. Sadly, our club's leadership has been just as lazy and unimaginative with their appointments.

I still can't quite understand how we got to a choice of either Dyche or Bielsa. If there was ever evidence that this club is a basketcase, it was that.

I didn't rate Moyes much then and I'm surprised at how hindsight has changed the views of some. Was he not, for a time, the only Premier League manager who earned more than any of his players?

Compared with the squad we have had in recent times, it looked like he had the 1970 Brazil team. I never thought he was the best our money could buy.

Incredible if it's true, and still the club got hit with two separate points deductions.

First they weakened us, and then they punished us, but even though we are back to begging, taking players on loan with a view to signing them, or buying on the never-never, which was why we probably ended up with Beto, it does look like we have got a much stronger squad if we manage to get everyone fit.

Alan@59. He was relegated with Sunderland.

Moyes resigned at the end of the season when Sunderland were relegated.

I couldn't stand the man but have to be honest: he took over a very poor squad and a poorly run club when he took over the club at the start of that season.

1) No-one is wielding enough power to sack Dyche.
2) We can't financially afford to sack him or his team.
3) Who would currently want to enter this poisonous bear pit atmosphere who has any credibility?
4) And even if they were mad enough, who is empowered to offer them the contract they would want?

In our position of total limbo, the only candidates would be those willing to consider operating on a very short-term contract who also have some sort of record in avoiding relegation in hard circumstances.

Someone like Allardyce. Or indeed Dyche...

Hurzeler for Brighton is a huge risk. Only 31 with no top-flight experience — albeit clearly talented.

Brighton have dampened that risk by spending more just this summer than we have spent on our entire squad.

Put Hurzeler in charge at Everton and it's a very different proposition.

But if Brighton go down, it will not be a huge novelty or disgrace for their fans. The rivalry with Palace exists but nothing like it is in Liverpool. We on the other hand would bear a lot of shame if relegated. It would be really shit.

Worse still, Brighton won't go bust if they go down. As things stand, we probably would (possibly dropping down to the third tier as a result of associated points deduction).

Hence we go conservative...

Once the club is stable again with a decent owner, then we can take a few risks.

That is a name I was about to put forward (Carlos Corberan); he studied under Bielsa and is certainly not cowardly.

Here is a short post about his experience prior to joining West Brom:

Carlos Corberan; Huddersfield Town, 2020-22

I actually think he was one of the most logical appointments that Everton have made in recent years. Unimaginitive certainly but well suited to dealing with a squad bereft of confidence and low on talent and spending ability.

When the remit was survival on a shoestring (at least in transfer fees) with an unbalanced squad, he was the right call to make. Or so I thought then.

Moving forwards, though, the picture should hopefully be very different.

Jay @68, yes, I think if we wanted to persevere with the Dyche style, then Corberan would seem a logical continuation. Well organised teams that are hard to beat with potentially a little more attacking upside.

I am bored and depressed with the constant struggle just to survive and wonder where we're going to get 35 to 40 points from.

The sort of throwaway line that emerges every now and again, that's another reason that I was so annoyed by the capitulation on Saturday. If only the team could have hung on to the victory, then lines such as this would not be thrown about; we would have all been in a happy place and looking forwards to our next fixture.

I was at the game on Saturday, and it was for the most part a throwback to the 'old days' where the fans were singing 'Marching down to Goodison' etc, until those crucial nine or so minutes radically altered the mood of the fans.

I didn't watch the Man Utd game on Sunday, but I imagine there was no 'poisonous bear pit' at Old Trafford, even though they'd been schooled by their fiercest rivals?

Many seem to have short memories and speak as if Moyes was some form of serial winner. In actual fact, for most of his tenure, he was a serial bottler and loser playing lousy football.

His time was up and the way he left the club was disgraceful, in cahoots with his buddy, the chairman and then owner. It suited both to change the narrative of Everton from top rankers to plucky triers.

It kept both in jobs far longer than they ought to have been if either one had seriously challenged the other's role in either providing resources or delivering silverware.

I personally find it nauseating to even consider his return.

The article headline should read that it is the ghosts of Catterick and Kendall that make life difficult — those are the standards to which all Evertonians, from owners to management and players, should aspire. I count myself lucky enough to have seen those folk operate and feel sick for my son who has only seen post-1995 dross.

I'm none the wiser.

Rafa? Now that is a bold shout. It went toxic with him pretty quickly and he was barely accepted. Those of us who were at the Brentford and Norwich games know how bad it was at the end.

No to Moyes. We've got to look forward, not live in the past.

Moyes has no job and lives nearby?

Carlos Corberan was clearly at the top (or near it) of Thelwell's list when looking for a Lampard replacement. It wouldn't surprise me if the situation would be the same if we sacked Dyche now.

In my opinion, his relationship with Dyche is dysfunctional.

He is honest in what he does and I would welcome him back before any other candidate.

He is honest in what he does?

Alex Ferguson told him not to sign the contract he'd said he was going to sign at Everton so that Man Utd wouldn't have to pay compensation to Everton when he took the Man Utd job.

Not what I would call honest.

Ranking every Premier League club by their wage bill in 2024-25

What this seems to show is that the top 8 are in an entirely different league on wage bills of £100m or thereabouts. West Ham in 9th place are at £80m in a category all of their own (very fitting for Moyes to leave them as best of the rest).

Then there's a cluster (including us) from 10th (Palace) down to to 17th (Leicester) who are all within about £15m of each other.

Brentford, Saints and Ipswich are all adrift in the bottom 3 where Ipswich are languishing behind massively with wage bill of only £8m.

The article is dated 14th August so this has probably all changed a bit in the final two weeks of the season but let's assume not meaningfully so.

In all of this we're 11th (£64m) - closer to Leicester in 17th (£53m) than West Ham in 9th (£80m).

So it's probably more accurate to describe us as paying bottom half wages, than mid-table. Other sides that might be perceived as mid-table like Spurs (£112m), Villa (£101m) and Newcastle (£99m) are really in a different league altogether.

You and I won't agree (and that's fine) but as I see it wages don't tell you a lot about squad quality - they just tells you whether you've spent wisely or not (or whether you're suffering from a fall from grace). I expect a lot of Man Utd fans might agree.

The gap on spending with near rivals like Forest and our recent vanquishers Bournemouth is pretty staggering — but I won't bore people with all the same stats again.

As for Moyes, if he comes back, instead of long balls down the middle to Calvert-Lewin, it'll be long balls down the channels for him to chase. No thanks.

Very interesting read.

I particularly like the second last sentence

‘Hold ourselves accountable even for those things that weren't solely down to us.'

Hmmmmmmmm!!!

If Dyche goes, it will be orchestrated by him for compensation. Moyes is really more of the same and second comings do not work out at Everton. Everton under Moyes made frustrating progress at best and we were all sold a pup by him. Brushed off with the People's Club sop.

At West Ham, he performed the same. I smell Moshiri pissing about in the background .

I really can't think of anything worse than us entering our spanking new waterfront stadium with the old football dinosaur Moyes as manager.

He reinforced the glass ceiling with knife-to-a-gunfight bullshit and shat on the club after being tapped up.

If he came back, it would give me a great excuse not to go again.

The current manager has kept us from falling through one during the past two seasons and hopefully, he will do so again this season.

Any club who gets rid of their manager 3 games into a season… well, they deserve everything they get.

Everyone praises Brighton and Brentford. Look at what Villa done. Move on from Moyes in my opinion.

I hardly think finishing 5th and 6th and qualifying for Europe mediocrity

Here is our finishes under David Moyes.

2002 finished 15th this was the season he took over.
2003 7th
2004 17th
2005 4th
2006 11th
2007 7th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 8th
2011 7th
2012 7th
2013 6th

Moyes did a good job under difficult circumstances, but then started to frustrate many supporters as time went on.

He did indeed give us memorable nights in Europe, but also some others that were unsavoury. Bucharest springs to mind.

When he made his "knife to a gunfight" comment, I cringed. Similar to when he declared that Manchester United aspire to be like Manchester City. That didn't go down too well with the red side of Manchester.

After 11 years, I could understand him taking the Man Utd opportunity. I just didn't like the manner in which he left. It all seemed a bit cloak and dagger.

He delivered a trophy at West Ham, but for whatever reason, was unpopular.

Anyway, first thing for us is to get Dyche to turn this around on the pitch and have the club sort out the ownership.

11 years and won nothing.

West Ham's win at Arsenal in December 2023 was his first away win against Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea in 20 years and 73 games.

Played 73, Lost 51, Drawn 21, Won 1.

When the critical games came, he always went defensive.

The list is from the Sky 4 era and excluding outliers of 2004 and 2005 he wavered 1 to 7 places below the established elite.

With the addition of City and Newcastle taking the elite to 6 in number, his results would translate as 7th to 13th at today's prices.

Dyche got 12th with a far worse squad and no freebie golden goose egg in the form of Rooney.

Best of the rest is now 10th place.

What now for Everton?

Back to the managerial position, it's so important that if Sean Dyche remains in position, he has to somehow galvanise the team and re-iterate that every point is so valuable, that we can't afford to throw any of them away.

I'm not convinced that his heart is in the job, and that's understandable, given the amount of issues surrounding the club.

However, the club in its current situation, can't carry a manager who isn't 100% committed to the cause because that will seep through to the players and we all know how quickly players drop their standards if given an excuse to do so.

The next half-dozen fixtures are so important to Dyche and the club: fail to pick up a decent amount of point,s then both are in trouble.

The three corresponding fixtures last season, Brighton, Spurs and Bournemouth, yielded 4 points; this time around zilch. If that trend continues, we will be rooted in the bottom three for some time.

We can't rely on a takeover to help the club gain some much-needed leadership, we have to rely on the Manager to do that. If Dyche is tired of being that leader, then we can't wait too long to find somebody who will — whether that be a dour Scotsman or someone else it doesn't matter, it's what we need, unless Sean gets his mojo back.

And we'd usually beat the likes of Fulham, West Ham, and Brighton.

That would be like, points, or lengthy spells without winning?

I don't want either Dyche or Moyes and as for "keeping us from falling through a hole", who got us in that position from which we escaped? Accepting mediocrity now seems to be the motto — even considered an achievement.

I presume when you say Dyche finished 12th you were talking about his time at Burnley as here he has finished 17th and 15th.
Look I get some fans didn't like David Moyes, probably because he didnt push on from an average of 7th position, I tend to take the view he did well to get us to 7th on the shoestring budget. I think sometimes we deal in fantasies rather than the truth as its much more palatable. I have watched every Everton manager from Ian Buchan, and in those 70 years only 3 have won trophies, Catterick, Royle and Kendall and only 2 have won the league. I wont mention how many managers have won trophies for the other lot in that time but its definitely chalk and cheese.

The 2 managers who have won the league were backed on a massive scale by John Moores, to give the younger fans an idea of that financial backing, we could buy anybody and nobody could compete with what Moores allowed us to spend. That's why the papers called us the Mersey Millionaires. But sadly since Sir john passed away and we no longer could rely on his financial backing we have slipped further and further down the pecking order. I class myself as very lucky as my Sons and Grandsons havent seen the Everton I got to watch, and thats why I am amazed to see so many youngsters who go home and away to watch massively inferior teams that I have been lucky enough to see.

It would be as unimaginative an appointment as you can get.

Dyche and the team now have a break to get their act in order and a break in the calls for his replacement seems appropriate.

Give the man a break — it's not all bad!!

It should have been obvious to Moyes that, after being forced to sell Rooney for little more than half his value, then a year later, after qualifying for the Champions League, being provided with minimum funds to sign players at the level of Phil Neville and Per Krøldrup, he would never achieve any success whilst Kenwright was owner.

Instead of moving on, he happily continued for another 8 years, playing to Kenwright's tune with an inflated salary.

You may believe that reaching the last 16 of the Uefa Cup and feebly losing an FA Cup Final to be some form of success; I call it mediocrity.

Can anybody confirm or deny this?

I imagine no one in Everton's accounts department would have any idea. Dyche is your only chance.

Dyche took us to 12th place last season. It was the 8 points deduction that knocked us back to 15th.

That's for down the line; for now, let us keep our nerve and trust that the manger will get a positive response from the playing staff.

Now they have made it impossible for less successful teams, even if they had the money to buy a number of top players. Newcastle have pots of money but can't spend it how they want.

The usual Top 6 teams are sitting pretty, laughing at us mugs with no chance now of knocking them off their perch. The rules have to change for the Premier League to be more of a fair competition.

Chelsea W8 L27
Man Utd W7 L25
Liverpool W6 L26
Arsenal W6 L28

Flashback to the FA Cup semi-final 2012. Everton v the worst Liverpool side in living memory and we still couldn't beat them.

It was time for a change, but Moyes hung on until Man Utd approached him. I wasn't sorry to see him go. Just sorry it hadn't been a year earlier.

I don't want Moyes back because Moyes is not a winner. Yes, he led West Ham to a Mickey Mouse trophy, but he is not a winner in the big time.

We got it horribly wrong with Kendall. Let's not do it again.

Fully agree and he left over 11 years ago. Add to that been sacked several times. The Semi v Liverpool was a very-very low point. One of many over the past 37 years.

This myth of the glory days at Goodison hasn't been seen for decades, even then it was sporadic.

Another Moyes classic I can never forget, as i've never heard so much anger/disappointment at home — March 2013, Everton 0 Wigan 3, with Millwall waiting in the semi-final.

At least he has that on his CV.

I always thought David's greatest gift was being a flat-track bully but his record at Goodison against the better teams actually looks quite decent although I suppose the crowd must take a lot of credit when you consider that he couldn't get his team to win even one game out of 53 away from Goodison Park?

I've been wracking my brain trying to think of the games when Everton beat Brighton during the Moyes era though, although my biggest disdain is the way that he was allowed to get away with neglecting trying to be competitive in the cup competitions because his record was absolutely dreadful.

Absolutely spot on, Jimmy. My thoughts exactly on every single point.

Moyes did a decent job, but stayed too long. The game is much changed since his day, and his day has long passed.

I am encouraged by the fact that Kenwright is no longer around. He was Moyes's biggest supporter.

I don't believe Kenwright had much say in managerial appointments since Moshiri came on board.

And given that Moshiri appointed both Allardyce and Benitez I could quite easily see the return of Moyes if results don't improve and Sean is sacked.

The final straw was the capitulation against Wigan in the quarter-final of the FA Cup. It was then that I decided that him and Kenwright had been scratching each other's backs for different reasons and I finally lost all respect for the man.

He had boxed clever and ended up getting one of the greatest jobs in world football, even though I struggled to see how a club that had been used to winning a lot in the previous couple of decades had decided to go with a manager who had won nothing, and always seemed to panic when things might have been opening up for him.

I have really fallen out of love with football and, looking back, it probably started because of the incredible way Bill Kenwright easily deceived thousands of genuine Evertonians who all thought he loved Everton. But it was always apparent to me that he loved being in charge of the club a lot more than he actually loved the club.

I hope the club gets sold soon because this is the most important thing. I think that anyone who wants to see Moyes return is panicking and must have already convinced themselves that Everton are once again in relegation trouble after only three games.

If Moyes returns, I will watch from afar, but I love Everton that much, I'd make a pact with the devil tomorrow, and stick to my promise never to watch another Everton game if it meant the club got new owners and started winning trophies!

I've been wracking my brain trying to think of the games when Everton beat Brighton during the Moyes era.

Keep trying, you can do it. The little engine that could...

Oh wait a minute, no, there's a problem. Can you guess what it is, Tony?

I like Paul, because he keeps a lot of his posts very short, (unlike myself) although I do have to take his word for it when he tells me that he his normally very positive!

Did we play them in the cup, Paul?

If Moyes is appointed, it will be because, after about 10 to 15 games or so, we're at rock bottom. His appointment would simply be to rescue us from relegation worries this season.

Assuming the takeover goes through, I expect new owners would look at him as a possible longer-term appointment — but that is not for now. And if there's going to be some meaningful investment to accompany the takeover, then some more exciting names will come into the frame.

That is the key thing. Nothing will be achieved until we've got better players. Not to excuse the disgraceful capitulation — but compare our first XI v Bournemouth:

Pickford v Kepa (Spanish International and £80M signing for Chelsea)
Keane v Zabarnyi (Ukraine International, £22M from Dinamo Kiev)
Tarkowski v Senesi (Argentina International, £15M from Feyenoord)
Coleman v Araujo (Mexico International, £10M from Barcelona)
Mykolenko v Kerkez (Hungary international, £18M from Feyenoord)
Iroegbunam v Cook (England International, £7M from Leeds)
Gueye v Christie (Scotland International, £3M from Celtic)
McNeil v Tavernier (no England caps, but £13M from Boro)
Ndiaye v Kluivert (Dutch International, £10M from Roma)
Harrison v Semenyo (Ghana International, £10M from Bristol City)
Calvert-Lewin v Evanilson (Brazil International, £37M from Porto)

Who from out lot would definitely have got in their first XI before kick off? Not sure. Maybe Pickford — but Kepa has some pretty outstanding credentials.

Who from their lot would definitely have got in our first XI before kick-off? Semenyo, Kerkez, Araujo and Zabarnyi - that's who.

Appointing Moyes could steady the ship (if Dyche doesn't settle it over the next few games anyway) but it would absolutely not return us to the top 10 of the Premier League. Nothing short of an absolute minimum £200M net spend will do that.

Kenwright is no longer there — please, surely there is enough sense left at Goodison to not go back to Moyes, some 11 years later?

The game has moved on — most of the other clubs have young, energetic, progressive managers. Moyes is from a long bygone age and I can't even bring myself to consider watching KITAP1 again and listening to his dour negative press conferences, constantly managing down expectations until there's no point in living anymore.

Keep Dyche for now, things will improve. We don't need another change in manager, at least not until we have new owners.

And, with my 'Moyes Out Brigade' uniform still in the back of the wardrobe somewhere, I'm positive he never was.

"I cannot believe the noise for Moyes is getting louder by the day. He hasn't been able to find another job for a reason."

Is that reason that he's waiting on his dream job at Everton to be available?

I've been supporting Sean Dyche but I think Saturday's display of total lack of descion-making was the last straw for me.

The number of times he has made changes so late in our games beggars belief.  If we fail to get some points in the next 6 games, then I will have no argument for keeping Dyche in this job.

Whether we have the money to entice a new man in is another hurdle apart from who would want to come??? 

However, with Kenwright no longer around, I'm not sure who's left at Goodison who was even there when Moyes was around? Coleman may be the only one, it's been that long.

Googling, Moyes is now a technical director for Uefa (along with Southgate) and at 61 his club management days at the top are surely in the past. (Hopefully with us anyway.)

It doesn't sound good regarding Textor, according to a journalist called Matt Slater, so it wouldn't surprise me if we hear some positive news, in the next few days now.

Slater thinks that whoever is going to purchase Everton, then their first move will probably be going to the bank, because Everton currently have £600 million worth of debt, and that's before you consider what Moshiri wants for the club.

I can think of something infinitley worse, Dyche being our manager at BMD.

I don't want Moyes back at all but, as far as I'm concerned, he's head and shoulders above Dyche as a manager Moyes did sign some cracking players for us, as he has done for West Ham — Paqueta, Bowen — and he developed Rice into a £100M player.

The biggest gripe I had with him besides our shocking away form at the Sky 4 was the way he used the srikers: Beattie scored plenty at Southampton. Andy Johnson started well but tailed off, Saha would go a dozen games without a goal.

As I said, I don't particularly want him back but he did sign some really good players for us: Fellaini, Arteta, Fernandes, Baines, Cahill, Lescott, Jagielka among others.

It's funny no one mentions Spurs' near £1 Billion debt that they owe on their stadium.

He didn't even bother tendering a bid after viewing the stadium because he said that many corners had been cut in the building of it. He said it will look great, but the infrastructure isn't sound at all.

Please no.

Brighton beat Utd. Tottenham are really strong this year.

Bournemouth collapse was a freak event.

Calm down FFS.

The latest timeline for improvement in media reports is between the International breaks 10 September and 7 October. This seem realistic.

Whilst Dyche did make a Horlicks of the substitutions, he was let down by players' attitudes in those final 10 minutes. Once a manager at Everton blames the players for defeat, he tends not to have support at Finch Farm, where Moyes is still a darling and available.

What's more, it is the type of decision that Moshiri is likely to be involved in, being the wimp he is.

Just when you think can't get any worse…

Another poster put out Carlos Corberan, apologies can't remember who. The more I read about Carlos Corberan the more I am thinking that this guy could be an option.

He learnt his trade from Bielsa, has experience of managing youth at Leeds Under-23s, managed a club in distress in West Brom who were second bottom in the Championship after 16 games, he took them to 9th. Took Huddersfield to the Play-off Final.

Okay, got sacked by Olympiacos for losing two games on the spin, make of that what you will, but he is a relatively new kid on the block with modern coaching ideas who could be ready to take the next step.

More to the point, would he come here anyway? West Brom are flying high and he probably wants to see that project to its conclusion.

I am not surprised given the owner's arm's length approach to everything Everton.

At one stage, he had Barrett-Baxendale supposedly in charge of stadium development and the original architect was sacked.

Translates to: he didn't get the contract and he's pissed off as fuck so hits out at the club.

Next in the queue please for club bashing.

And they say it is bloody fantastic.

Though I suppose what Kevin isn't saying is when his mate put his bid in. But still, as if the infrastructure wouldn't be solid!!

"[mate] said that many corners had been cut in the building of it."

Any examples, Kevin? Or just rumours (cutting corners on the reality!)?

Of course.

The next 4 games are crucial as even I accept that the manager will find it difficult to survive if we are still without a win going into the next International break.

Leicester, Palace and Newcastle are all winnable games.

As there has never been any disaster at any football stadium, the HSE don't waste their time checking the safety of a place where 50,000 people gather on a regular basis.

What about the fire at Bradford?

Just re read your comment and missed the sarcasm in your post sorry.

Ooo I think I know this one…

We never played Brighton under Moyes. We beat them under Kendall early 80s then didn't play them again until Koeman was the boss.

Rooney (2nd coming) scored a penalty right at the end. I was there.

Dyche needs his exit plan fast. Moyes may not be a beacon of footballing excellence and advancement but right now we're not that kind of club — open your eyes. Moyes is 10 times the manager Dyche is.

Unlikely Dyche will be sacked as the club is hollow but there has to be a point where enough is enough, Dyche is very close.

It will help those not so sure on their feet. Looking at the footage, some of those stands look steep and for those familiar with the away section at St James' Park, that 140 plus steps, the walk up is never ending. And then you realise you're near the back, so more to go!

On Moyes, just from this thread alone, it is clear to me, a return, which I don't think will happen, would be devisive amongst supporters.

On football disasters, Bradford was awful. I am glad they banned smoking in football grounds. Firstly, I've never smoked. Secondly, after Bradford, I thought something similar could happen at Goodison given all the wooden floorboards in sections of the ground.

I want Dyche to have a good season. He'll be gone by the end of the season at the latest. But, despite the tactics, which could change as the new players settle in, he deserves respect for operating when the club has been dithering in the background.

If and when we change manager, look to the future, not back to the past. It will split the fan base and that is the last thing we need right now.

I'd take Moyes back now in a heartbeat. He'd get more out of the team/squad of players, Dyche clearly is failing.

Some people seem to put Moyes in the same bracket as Dyche, philosphy-wise, which is rubbish, but, if you're prepared to put up with Dyche, then that means a similar style for Moyes, right?

Like I said, I think he'll get far more out of the squad than Dyche. Whether people would rather have anyone else but Moyes, that's fine.

I don't think in the short term the likes of Potter are going to thrive at the club. The club is a mess. However, keeping Dyche in charge is very risky. His results speak for themselves.

The results will determine what happens. Hey, he survived a poor start last season, 3 home wins until April, 4 months without a win, and now 5 wins since mid-December. It's only 3 games — let's not have a knee-jerk reaction. We're only bottom, 10 goals conceded in 3 games.

We played well for a bit last week. Let's not tarnish Dyche's inept game management. Although a 31-year-old outwitted him on opening day, and another manager 2-0 down near full time, outwitted him by making 5 subs and a grab for it.

Like so many of them results last season, oh, not forgetting Luton x2.

Dyche man.

He too suffered from financial constraints whilst the bigger teams were getting richer. That said I have always believed lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place and managers, like players never have the same impact the second time around.

Bigger name managers came and went after Moyes and achieved zilch, so why expect big things from Dyche?

It's unfortunate that the manager gets the chop first, and this may come to Dyche soon enough, but who can turn this club around with the limited funding?

We are currently between a rock and a hard place going nowhere quickly.

If your mate — and I mean if your mate is genuine about corners being cut. then he has a duty under HSE laws to report any defects he noticed.

This is a stadium that will be hosting 52,888 people and I can't imagine any corners will be cut. You'd best be trash talking!

But I do remember him telling us a few years back that he built a model castle for his son… only for it to collapse!!

“He tends not to have support at Finch Farm, where Moyes is still a darling and available.”

I recall Finch Farm staff were ecstatic when Moyes slithered under the door on his way to Old Trafford. Martinez was “a breath of fresh air” and brought smiles to Finch Farm, and that the Christmas “Bring Me Sunshine” staff video wouldn't have been allowed under Moyes.

I said last week that Moyes did a great job and built a super side — Baines, Pienaar, Arteta, Coleman, Hibbert, Jagielka, Howard, Lescott, etc …. but just imagine what a young progressive manager could have done with that side?

And please, don't throw Martinez at me, he did well with Moyes's side which sort of proves my point, it was his defensive frailties that ruined his tenure.

Moyes has had his time here, his boat has sailed.

One further issue which is of concern to me is apparently at the end of this season we will have just 12 first-team players under contract. The 12 includes Beto and Chermiti, so could perhaps be more accurately described as 10 plus 2. This illustrates just how difficult the manager's job at Everton has become.

People say Dyche is only still the manager because there is nobody to sack him? I can still remember Moyes getting our lowest points tally after a couple of seasons and always thought that, under any other circumstances, other than Kenwright juggling like fuck to keep hold of Everton, he would have also got the sack?

I wasn't there last week but I heard we played football that a Sean Dyche's team wasn't capable of and, although it ended very badly, I think he should be given the time to resurrect his terrible start, and this is something I expect him to do. We will see.

When Dyche joined Everton, he acknowledged that he was only getting a chance because of the state the club was in; when David Moyes left Everton, some of his words made me feel that he thought he was actually bigger than the club.

Moyes is not for me but I have always had grander ideas for Everton and I never fell into the narrative that he constantly punched above his weight. Him and Kenwright changed the narrative between them and the “plucky pair” both did very well out of Everton Football Club — that is my own personal opinion.

Ancelotti with lord knows how much got us to a similar position as Dyche got us last season. We are lucky to have him. We could have Frank effing Lampard.

If he is forced out, does anyone have any confidence that the nitwit in Monaco will make a good selection?

That's my excuse anyway.😁

I believe we need to give Dyche a bit more time and when we replace him, which we probably will; look forward, not backwards to my second cousin.

By the way, David, what does "Dyche Man" mean?

The guy dressed in black with the scythe is still around…

Dyche man is like PAC Man but he eats pies instead of Aliens.

I've calmed down now and am prepared to give him one last chance.

As for Moyes, he shouldn't be on any ambitious clubs list as a manager.

A young up-and-coming foreign manager who is in tune with modern tactics should be the next guy to consider when the time comes. For now, though, bear with Dyche.

This stadium is being built by a company with a worldwide reputation that was not achieved by cutting corners. I may be wrong but I imagine that any lifts in the stadium are for the food services etc, and not for supporters. Going to different levels will be by escalators that are a lot quicker and more efficient than causing overcrowding in lifts, and if they fail, would lead to supporters being trapped inside.

Most manufactured parts are computerized and made off site and the whole building could be described as a huge and most expensive jig-saw puzzle, plus it has to be examined regularly by government appointed equivalent (in Canada) of Occupational Health and Safety.

Granted he was never the happy clapper type like Lampard who hid his appalling management behind the ‘he really gets us' rhetoric but some of his comments since he arrived continue to drive a wedge between himself and the support.

I actually don't believe his style of football is any worse than under Koeman, Allardyce, Lampard or even the sainted Ancelotti since it was equally dire under each of those managers. But to call for the return of Moyes who, let's remember, on the eve of a big Wembley game for us, was being wined and dined by Man Utd, is appalling.

We have too many long-in-the-tooth players at the club for a root-and-branch change to the playing style and don't have the luxury of mid-table mediocrity to allow time for that to take place.

So reluctantly, Dyche is probably still the best option in the current position but he'd better learn and learn quickly that the Everton supporters can sniff out bullshit better than his ability to sniff out a bad performance on the pitch.

Dyche. Man.

Man, I hope I explained it right.

I can agree with the majority of your sentiments, perhaps I feel you are a bit harsh on Moyes as in my view the true judgement of a manager's term at a club is whether or not he left us in a better place than when he walked through the door on day one.

Moyes passes that test in my view, and so does the current manager.

Talking of sand, it's unbelievable that Bramley Moore, sits on 500 cubic metres of sand, plus piles, and concrete and whatever else.

It's a marvel in modern technology, with the only thing that I don't like about our new stadium, is the bit that is not covered down the north and south stands.

I've just drove past it half an hour ago, and it made me smile watching the people sitting outside the pub, in the sunshine, enjoying a cold beer, because it looked like every single one of them was looking at the stadium in awe.

I thought about those two long stretches, that I don't like along both sides of the stadium, (because you can see the underneath of the concrete steps) and was wondering if the club was going to putting some kind of advertising board, down both sides, or maybe a tarpaulin, like they used behind the park end stand?

I hope they do something because I'd hate to see this magnificent stadium, not get that final finishing touch.

Dyche alone has kept us in the Premier League? Was it not a goal from Doucoure two seasons ago, that without, we would have gone down under Dyche's watch.
When's it's going ok it's down to Dyche alone and not the players, are the players good enough then?
When it's generally shit, which is more often than not it's not Dyche, it's the players aren't good enough so it's their fault not Dyche?

I don't want Moyes back but lets not paint Dyche as some sort of saviour.

Yesterday has gone and I feel genuinely sorry for any Evertonians, who yearn for David Moyes, because before him and the phoney, changed the narrative, Everton football club, had always had much higher standards.

That word Saviour always makes me feel nauseous with regards our once great club Anthony

For me Dyche still has some ‘gratitude' banked but needs some positive performances that yield positive results pretty quick to settle everything down.

Wouldn't want Moyes back any which way.

I recall Pac-Man's diet consisting of ‘counters', fruit and ‘negative' ghosts; any Aliens must have been on levels I didn't reach (which was most of them!).

The 'bricks and mortar' are infill to define spaces and zones, so OK, 'fabric'.

The infrastrucure is really all the hidden stuff, cabling and piping, ductwork, etc.

Then what you see is the architectural and finishing work.

Tony #173, the Pyramids sit on sand, as does the Burj Khalifa, the tallest building in the world. At least that's what I tell RS mates when they tell me it'll fall down 'cos some old book says you can't build on sand!

There are several reasons why the club is bounching along the bottom of the League each season.
One is wanting our managers sacked when we lose a few games, another is selling our best players and buying inferior replacements.
How many of our current players are wanted by your City, Arsenal etc, Branthwaite probably, Pickford maybe but theres no more.

Any manager will struggle with our squad, I'm not saying they are poor players but they are not a top half of the table players either.

There are alternatives out there, we shouldn't just stick for the sake of looking. Dyche is not good enough and clearly too many people are against a Moyes return but there are some great coaches out there.

Everton are a big club, with the greatest fans, in the best league in the world with a fantastic stadium on the way.

For the club to get hit with two points deductions last season and still stay up with a deal of comfort was no mean performance by the current manager, particularly when you consider that his net spend during his one and a half seasons at the club is a major minus figure. He has put up with a lot over the period and he deserves better three games into the new season, indeed he deserves a lot better.

Contributors are entitled to their views but it's a fact that we are a club that have accumulated major losses over the past number of years, it's also a fact that we have had a negative spend since the current manager walked through the door.

1994/95 was the last season we won some silverware, we celebrate, if that's the correct term, the 30th anniversary this season.

Tony, Danny and others like them remember the 1980's, we are so lucky, but anybody under 45 has seen nothing but bad times, numerous fights against relegation and 1 piece of silverware.

Thank you for your insight. I may have been mistaken, but I get the impression that Finch Farm want what is comfortable, but I can see where you are coming from; Moyes isn't a winner — he is more do-and-die.

I don't want him back. One good thing he did when he went to Man Utd was get rid of the backroom staff which fucks them up for a year.

Matinez did show what could be done, but was not able to keep the defence up to spec. He did expose the weaknesses in some of Moyes's defensive players, which they were able to get away with under Moyes.

I remember Trevor Brooking berating the efforts of Everton defence with video back-up. He felt they were just not doing enough, but got caught out when they came under scrutiny.

PH (and others), you rather simply assume that Moyes in 2024 would be the same Moyes from 15 years ago. You seem to assume that that level of "success" would come flooding back.

You seem to think that nothing has changed in the long interim and we will ease back to business as usual under dour, dreary, dank, dismal, disappointing, deleterious, dire disconsolate, diminutive, dilatory, doleful, doltish, dowdy, duplicitous, deadpan, dry, drab, dishy Davey (God, I miss those days, and Eugene).

His team circa 2007-10 (maybe further on) produced some of the best football I've seen from an Everton team in my life (granted, I'm 36).

As someone above mentioned, he was one of the very few managers who left Everton in a better state than he found it.

I know it's all subjective, but one of the reasons I don't think Moyes, is a very good manager, is because of how he carried on when he got the Manchester United job.

I was amazed by the way David rejoiced, and gave countless interviews talking about how Sir Alex, offered him the job.

You think you've cracked it Davie, was my initial thought, but you don't crack managing football clubs like United, until you win a few cups, and I was amazed that Moyes, didn't seem to have any self awareness about this part of the job. That's how it came across to me anyway.

You also used to have to win a few cups, to get more than a few years at Everton, until the narrative was changed.

I don't think that he was a "very good" manager and he stayed around too long, quite frankly.

Also, and quite trivial, I can never forget that image from Sky etc of Moyes walking in some London street the day it was publicly announced (months after the deed was done) that he would be the next Man-Utd gaffer. He thought he was the bee's knees, didn't he, and that the only way was up?

I think Sean Dyche has done a great job at Everton. I didn't personally get that Moyes vibe you felt but I am obviously far removed.

Anyhow tell June... my wife Breige is over the moon. After three boys our fourth grandchild is going to be a girl.

You've had good news on the non-Everton football front as well. Really happy for you.

"Quite trivial" doesn't quite do it justice. I've had shit on my shoe that registered more angst.

But you also thought that Moyes was "a very good" manager so I'll leave it at that and wish you a happy weekend.

I will tell her tomorrow unless Dave reads this and tells her first mate, so congratulations because it sounds like it's wonderful news.

I can't help but feel something's bubbling there but apologies if I posted something to offend you.

But hopefully the decision makers at the club can finally look beyond whoever the Daily Mail suggest for our next manager.

I had nothing against Moyes for the way he left. His contract ended and he got a big job offer. We don't like to admit there are bigger jobs but obviously there are.

Our club on the other hand made a big deal of our David leaving tiny Everton for the bright lights of Manchester. No prizes for guessing who was behind that particularly nauseating theatrical production. That 'grand farewell' never sat well with me.

It's too hot outside and I'm never at my best in sweltering humidity.

But then again I'm lucky enough to have been watching the blues since 1955. Even some of those '50s teams played better football than Moyes's teams.

I just hope and pray that, in coming years, you and our younger supporters will enjoy some good times.

Whilst Moyes was here he delivered some comforting league positions and some talented less-than-top-drawer players were signed (as well as as many flops) but we never signed a notable striker.

He soon persuaded Kenwright to pay him a top dollar salary to keep Kenwright's comfortable boat afloat, even though the money available to spend decreased markedly compared to other comfortably positioned clubs, ie, our immediate contenders, and never mind the "top" clubs pre Masters's shambolic PSR bollocks that has since cut off everyone but those "top" clubs from any chance of winning anything.

Then, surprise, surprise, Ferguson contacts our Davey with the full support of his lapdog Kenwright and offers a much better contract.

As a pro, Moyes accepted it behind every true Evertonian's back. But he's a pro, never a Toffee.

Since then, he's done little remarkable in management terms, or style of football.

But he's reliable, available, and given the financial catastrophe delivered onto us all by Kenwright and his chosen one, may, just may, be the best — if he's daft enough to want it.

And he's a Premier League pro, wealthy as they all are beyond their wildest dreams. So he can afford another dabble at our expense. After all, at his age, what's he got to lose?

As to Dour Davey; 'Everton That' has, looking back, been a thing for as long as I can remember (10-4, Sandy Brown own-goal, Clive Thomas, etc, etc).

But, internet driven(?) it only became a 'thing' this Century.
It should though be more correctly called 'Moyes That' due to the number of times, in big games and small games, he snatched defeat or a draw from a draw or victory… and the less said about him vs the then Big 4, the better.

But, just as Dyche has proved in his own streaky manner he can put a run together... good and bad, so could Moyes.

If we admit that the Man Utd job was too much for him — they got an Everton Manager who got them an Everton-esque 7th-place finish.

People then point to Moyes Mk I & II at West Ham... but neglect to mention the 'S' teams: Sunderland — brought in ex-Everton (Burnley?) players and played his favourites... sounds familiar… Relegated; and Sociedad — sacked after a poor start... again, sounds familar.

Dyche is Moyes Mk II, instead of curry, you get porridge with no sugar on it — just more and more salt.

Let's wait and see… but not for too long though!

I hide (cower?) behind the hope/assumption that you-know-who's death has put an end to the possibility of Moyes ever coming back here.

We all know that Bill tried to get him back a few times and that Moyes had already had his meeting on board Usmanov's yacht and had a contract on his desk more or less ready to go — until Ancelotti got suddenly sacked and they went all Hollywood.

The sentimental (when it suited him) schemer would've loved the whole Blood Brothers prodigal return thing.

It could still happen because, with this lot, you never know. But the current power vacuum and whole inertia in the club's hierarchy seems to preclude any changes right now.

Each game badly lost or thrown away drawn will see another bout of "Sack that Manager" angst, especially if in the manner of Bournemouth.

From everybody's point of view, a few decent performances — and of course wins — will help… as always.

What — are we grudge-bearing dwarves or something? Let's make sure we don't cut our noses off here to spite our faces.

He was head-hunted by another club, that only happens to good managers.

One thing's for certain: £5M-a-year Sean Dyche won't be getting head-hunted anytime soon.

Their records speak for themselves, as does the naivety around Saturday's game management.

Sean Dyche's stats basically confirm his teams rarely win in the first 5 games, but the events of the first 2 home games and the collapse against Bournemouth was inexcusable.

Sadly the club has met hard times in the Moshiri years, and it's been too close to Shit Creek, but the supporters above all have driven the spirit of the players and manager and coaches to get over the line.

This season is going to be very tough but once Branthwaite comes back and a reliable right-back is instilled as a regular starter, then I see Everton stabilising on the park.

But the club needs true stability from the board to the academy. There doesn't seem to be a clear line of sight to if and when this will happen.

But no tension today and let's hope the injured players improve, and international players return, with full health and fitness.

If I might just comment on your view that Martinez exposed some of our defenders' weaknesses.

I seem to recall Jagielka and senior defenders admitting to having their own ‘unscheduled' team meeting towards the end of his tenure in which they took it on themselves to completely ignore Martinez's tactics and try to revert to the defensive stability they had under Moyes. They had realised that Martinez was clueless defensively.

Also,

“One good thing he did when he went to Man Utd was get rid of the backroom staff which fucks them up for a year.”

You say that like it's a bad thing…..😁

I think Touchel would take this job, and why wouldn't he?

As far as I'm concerned, that squad now isn't as bad as the results we've had. We just need a good coach to mould them into a decent playing style.

Does anyone on here honestly think that a good coach wouldn't have been able to see that game out last week?

I know this as, from now when, and if we go 2-nil ahead in a game, how many of us will cast our minds back to them horrible last 9 minutes?

Tuchel or Potter for me, let's face it, Carlo came, didn't he?

You can't help but get the jilted vibe from some on here.

We were a Jordan Pickford injury-time save from being relegated against Bournemouth.

Let that digest, the man hasn't even got the humility to accept some of the blame for that catastrophe last week.

Agree, it was the supporters who got us over the line.

Why should we accept that Dyche's teams never win in their first five games as some sort of acceptable norm and cost of doing business?

I would say that Dyche has changed the narrative to 'it doesn't matter if he goes 12 without a win because he is a streaky manager and he will turn it around'.

How about getting in a manager who doesn't go 12 in the first place?

5 wins in 25… This guy is a car crash!

For those who say that it was the players to blame on Saturday, I would say how come so many seasoned pros bottled it? Mental fortitude is also part of the manager's job isn't it?

A week later and still angry!

Sorry but the way Moyes left Everton had no reason for me wanting him gone, that started way back about three or four seasons after he had been here. I was a constant writer to the Liverpool Echo about his efforts with Everton and to Moyes himself, always with my name adresss and telephone number on the letter.

About being head-hunted I think you will find that Ferguson and Moyes's dad were friends from an early age in Glasgow. You will see them pictured together at Old Trafford after Ferguson retired sitting in the stands together. I don't think he was ever head-hunted then or since, but you might be right that good managers are head-hunted.

You like him, fair enough, each to their own!

‘

Just to outline where I am with the whole Moyes thing.

I see him as a stable short-term option maybe just for this season and then when the new owner comes in we look for a younger, more progressive manager (such as Carlos Corberan).

I'm certainly not advocating that Moyes is our long-term future but I am saying that he is a safer pair of hands than Dyche during this critical season.

We simply have to be in the Premier League when we go into the new stadium next season. I just don't trust Dyche to do that.

He completely lost it when Bournemouth made it 2-1, he didn't have a clue what to do. Moyes would have shut up shop, 3 points in the bag. Simple.

Safety is everything.

In my defence, I did try and steer the thread towards Corberan as an option yesterday but then someone posted some fake news about our magnificent new stadium falling down.

Iraola calmly and carefully moving his chess pieces around compared to Dyche throwing his arms around ranting and raving ( actually reminded me a bit of Maupay's mate at Euston)

No wonder the players were bewildered.

Not that I think Dyche is an upgrade, I think his perspective on football hasn't altered in all his time as a manager but the Premier League has changed and his methods and style have been left behind.

We may dodge a relegation fight once again, but real improvement may only come with a better-equipped manager utilizing what we have better.

I do wonder if both Thewell and Dyche collaborate on incoming players or what say does Dyche actually have given that our transfers are not deemed fit enough for first-team action until Dyche says they are.

Struggling to understand why O'Brien isn't deemed ready.

I think Thelwell has improved the squad generally.

We don't actually need to wait for a new stadium for us to decide to be a proper football club again. We don't even really need to wait for new ownership — it's a strategic decision that the football leadership of the club should make.

They just need to convince the owner to sign off on the expenditure — which is a chunky sum but not huge as Dyche is in the last year of his deal and there's no reason to be paying the next guy Top 6 wages for a bottom-half role.

But we won't. We'll stick with Dyche and wait for the change in ownership and the new stadium. If things get really bad, we'll sack Dyche and make another short-term decision (for example, Moyes). Then we'll go to the new stadium even further behind in football terms.

Yes, that's fine — no problem with that point of view, I doubt Dyche will be a long-term manager of Everton — more especially if he doesn't change his tactics after the Bournemouth game.

We just have a different opinion on Moyes: you'd bring him in; I'd stick with Dyche for now.

I often ask Ernie to explain things and I think that, if Everton are going to change the manager once again, his words @221 make a lot of sense.

On the Dyche vs Moyes front, I think most can agree in an ideal scenario neither would be our manager. However, I do believe there is a significant minority who never accepted Dyche in the first place and are quick to pull out the ‘Dyche out' flag with any poor result. They're noticeably absent when the team does well. Whatever Dyche does, a portion of the fan base will never accept him. That's just the case. Personally, the guy has kept us up, and hence steered us away from absolute disaster, the last two years. For that alone he deserves our respect and thanks, as well as time. We're literally only 3 games into the season. Assess in November after about 10, surely.

I know people who work in football on the data side and there is a simple rule. Teams that generally chop and change managers will end up spending (wasting) huge amounts of money with little to show for it. Stability is key to a successful side and that comes mainly with not swapping managers every 5 minutes.

The main cause of the mess the club got itself into since Moshiri was the constant churn of managers. Martinez lasted 3 years but since he left, between 2016 and 2022 we had no less than 7 managers. Total madness. We ended up with a squad put together by 8 managers. Of course we were going to struggle.

If we're to change again, at least wait into the end of this season, assuming the wheels don't completely come off. Personally I think we'll be fine league wise. The squad is better than last year and let's not forget we've had key players missing.

Moyes is most definitely not the answer in the short, medium or long term. Dyches contract is up end of the season as it is. Which times well with hopefully new ownership. However, if he gets us to mid table safety, why change if we're moving in the right direction? First 80 minutes against Bournemouth was decent stuff.

Let's just have some patience.

(If you never wanted Dyche in the first place you're not going to be happy until he's gone, whatever happens on the pitch?)

Or the same approach as Brighton who appointed Potter who was then hired by Chelsea, so they appointed De Zerbi and have now replaced him with another young manager playing good football and getting results.

I hope that, whenever the new owners come in, they ask Thelwell to appoint the new manager, after all what's the point if he isn't consulted on the biggest footballing decision of any football club.

On that basis, we have only dropped points in one game so far. No one would expect us to beat Villa as they will be looking to finish in the Top 6.

It's all depressing and it will remain so until we have new owners in place, we hope. Alternatively, there is hope now. Sort out the full backs, the return of Jarad and the bedding in of the new boys along with Dyche learning to use substitutes correctly rather than bringing on two for the last 10 minutes as a token gesture.

Play as a team, press relentlessly (just watch so old clips of the eighties team and learn).

Fair point, I guess my concern there is that Goodison becomes a place of nerves for the players instead of the fortress it should be. Really interested to see how we do at Leicester away, I think that game is critical for Dyche.

Denis @224,

I read it on a thread on ToffeeWeb, someone said that he knew someone who worked at Goodison who said their relationship was broken. All very much third-party stuff though it would explain a few things. I also think Thelwell has done a great job.

I was very much in favour of Dyche when first appointed; it was the winless run and now the manner of the Bournemouth game that has turned me, including the press conference. If we stay up, then I will be delighted to say that I was wrong.

Not great either way.

"But Dyche isn't playing all Thelwell's new signings together immediately!"

Have a look at other Premier League clubs — neither are they. Clubs do generally take a little while to bed new players in — especially when they are new to the Premier League — and Dyche is just doing the same thing.

You could make a case obviously for introducing some a bit quicker — maybe O'Brien in place of the possibly injured Tarkowski. But none of this really indicates a breakdown.

The bigger issue seems that the club generally looks deflated after multiple failed takeovers. To be honest, I'm deflated.

Certainly Dyche and Thelwell knew what they were getting themselves into on arrival. But, like us, they must have hoped that the club would be in new hands by now with some additional investment to help keep us competitive.

No other Premier League club has experienced anything like this level of cost-cutting and negative investment. It must be exhausting to operate in this way.

All that matters Dave

I found that post about Thelwell and Dyche — it was from Jack Convey @125 on the sledgehammer to the solar plexus thread.

Apparently it was a radio caller who said that Thelwell and Dyche fell out over O'Brien because Dyche wanted the Hull centre-back instead.

Maybe bollocks, who knows.

I suppose it is possible that someone privy to inside information about the relationship between senior figures at the club might have chosen to share that on a radio phone-in. Probably not a high likelihood though.

From the very persistent rumours, it looked like Everton (presumably Thelwell and Dyche) had always earmarked Jacob Greaves, being a big left-footer, as the Branthwaite replacement if we were to sell our star centre-back.

However — once it was known we weren't going to sell — Greaves went to Ipswich where he would get games rather than be an understudy.

If Thelwell had brought in South Americans or Japanese etc players to bed in and develop, then I could see some difference in approach.

But O'Brien, being very tall, young and British / Irish, is very similar in profile to James Collins who Dyche brought in at Burnley. So seems a bit far-fetched to say Dyche wouldn't want him.

Agreed.

Probably just someone trying to stoke the fire around the discussion about O'Brien not getting a game or has a general anti-Dyche agenda. We don't know and probably never will.

But given the only excitement this club has had for nearly 4 decades revolves around avoiding catastrophe, it could be a masterstroke. Deffo see it happening.

We hope your future granddaughter has a long,happy and healthy life.

Lovely meeting you and Breige, me and June enjoyed your company very much, we hope you enjoyed your 45th. Wedding Anniversary and the meal you had booked, so sorry Everton spoiled your weekend!

Why? Because it rarely if ever works and the reason is simple, pedestals are built from the bottom up, very, very rarely you see exceptional people improve on success second time around.

We all live in hope and expectation but in reality, that day is done. And rightly so.

Moyes and Kenwright were a bridge too far for most of us, just the reminder is enough to ruin your day. That any respectable Evertonian would actually endorse such a move is distressing; if it happened you would hear the bellows of laughter from Kenwright's resting place.

Dyche doesn't do pedestals… bunkers are more his thing.

"When Moyes returned from the 2002 World Cup enthusing about the high-intensity efforts of the South Koreans, it offered a hint of what his Everton side would deliver.

Carsley, now coaching the reserves and under-18s at Coventry, says he was never fitter than at Everton. "On the Monday morning when other teams were doing a cool-down we would do a hard session and he would say, 'No one else is doing this now, that's why we're the fittest team'. That's why mentally we could cope with whatever was thrown at us."

Former Everton centre-back David Weir, who recently assumed a coaching role with the club's youth and reserve teams, notes that the players "have to train properly every day or it will be noticed".

Moyes's coaching skills ensured he got the very best out of his players' ability, according to Steve Watson, a stalwart of the Scot's early Goodison years. "I had some tremendous man-managers — Kevin Keegan, Kenny Dalglish, Walter Smith — but Moyes would be by far the best coach. Look at the amount of players who have improved vastly in his time there," he says, citing the "underrated" Leon Osman. "People like Phil Jagielka, he has taken from other clubs and transformed them into internationals."

I'm not sure it'd be fair to say that Dyche hasn't improved any footballer who has played for us (Branthwaite being an obvious name) but he has some way to go to match Moyes's success in getting the maximum out of his players.

As for fitness; these "Gaffer Days" that are legendary in his head seem to have put players incapable of functioning after 70 minutes. Moyes infamously sorted out the rot he inherited from Walter Smith by making the players competitive for the full match. At the moment. we just aren't.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since that PNE Moyes came to us and the bridge is mostly burnt, but he would be better than the current incumbent, that's probably fair to say.

He got us to 12th last season, the points deductions were not his fault. He was nominated to be up there as manager of the season by many pundits.

We lose the 3 games this season, not nice I grant you, but to talk about replacing him is somewhat hasty and dumb.

He's had to deal with injuries all over the squad which makes getting results all the more difficult.

We seldom get anything at Spurs, played well against Bournemouth till the crazy last few minutes and 3-0 to Brighton flattered them greatly.

We had a great couple of days in Liverpool and you and June were great company.

The result was disappointing but when I'm telling the family members and friends all the craic about the weekend they sometimes have to ask me:

"And so...how did the actual match go?"

I'm glad the game didn't spoil your weekend as for the family and friends asking how the game went tell them to mind their own business!!

Best wishes Brendan and give Breige our regards from me and June.

The crew of "never wanted him in the first place" have always held sway focussing the crosshairs on Martinez, Koeman, Ferguson, Unsworth, Silva, Benitez, Lampard and now Dyche. They hide in plain sight awaiting the trigger moment with only one escapee — the ever-savvy Ancelotti

The point is I can't think of a more divisive appointment than Moyes. They would be hiding in the trees sniping from the car park at the first set of poor results. It's how it works.

We briefly tolerate managers then assassinate them unless they escape first of course or get a record points total.

Moyes's appointment would be a blood bath.

Moyes would be reasonably well received but ultimately wouldn't do a great deal different to what Dyche is doing. We'd survive in gut-wrenchingly boring style.

Potter might get a better reception as the fans sit back and await the Brighton who shone brightest under De Zerbi (but without the players). We'd probably get relegated.

Someone foreign — Terzic, Amorim, Ferreira etc — would be well received too as it has greater feel of glamour about it than a guy from Kettering with a daft voice and a ginger goatee.

But all of this completely misses the point that it's a successful takeover, overhaul of club management and hundreds of millions of investment before anything changes in any meaningful way.

I also believe that Everton's fanbase will be 'split' for many years to come, there are some who are crying out to see entertaining football and some who want to see effective football.

Too many now believe that effective football is the only option and any attempt to play a progressive style is doomed from the very beginning.

It would be nice to think that progressive football could be effective at Everton, but unfortunately we may not see enough of the type of players required to do that at Goodison for the foreseeable.

It's all so desperately sad, for those of us who still retain faint hopes to see regular displays of how we performed against Bournemouth until those fateful last 10 minutes or so.

I never understood the anti Koeman stance at the time from a lot of the fans. He had a bit of a cold persona but he was/is a legend in his own right and got us to 7th (I think) in his only full season in charge. He doesn't seem to get any credit for this.

It was widely known Koeman didn't want Rooney (wanted Giroud after getting Sigurdsson) and the Rooney signing was the beginning of the end. Kenwright brought the prodigal son back, using £150k per week of the wage bill, so there was no money left for a striker and we ended up with three number 10s. Rest is history and Koeman was gone a few months later. The club, imo, then sunk to its lowest depths and signed Allardyce.

I guess every fan is different but I thought we'd played a blinder getting Koeman in and Kenwright, not for the first time, couldn't help himself.