Moyes says a European place has to be the challenge for next season

"We are seeing the odd team now maybe having a go such as Bournemouth and Fulham, while Brentford have tried to show over the years that they can get close to it.

"I don't see why we shouldn't try to get ourselves into that group. If we keep playing the way we have been doing, get results, then we will give ourselves every chance."

So, we want to be in the same group as Bournemouth, Fulham and Brentford next season? Inspirational. [Shakes head…]

Or do you want Moyes to say we will definitely break into the Champions League next season? Of course we all want that but it’s completely unrealistic.

To me, Moyes saying that displays ambition. If we are at the level of Bournemouth in 2½ years, he will have done a fantastic job and we can then see someone (hopefully a really progressive and hungry manager) pick up the reigns and kick us on again. A bit like Martinez should have but didn’t once he lost the solid organisational structure built by Moyes over time. Different times now though and hopefully more stable backing.

I really struggle with this "damned if you do, damned if you don’t" stuff. What is it we want? Is there seriously anyone on here who wouldn’t be delighted if we were as good as Bournemouth next season??

He didn’t say “I hope one day we can be as big a club as Bournemouth and Brentford”. We are a big club, we know that, but we are a big club who has been through many tough years. In order to get to where we need to be, we have to transition back, starting with being able to mix with mid-table and hopefully competing with Bournemouth.

But Bournemouth in 2 and a half seasons? No thanks. We've had enough years in the doldrums, so now is the time to be bold, think big and aim high and get there quickly.

Both Moyes and the club.

All respect to Bournemouth, Brighton and Brentford, but talk about Tottenham, Newcastle, Manchester United and Chelsea.

TFG need to spell out their aims for the club; it can't just fall onto the manager.

If their goal is to qualify for Europe regularly but not compete hard for a trophy, then their popularity will wane rapidly.

If they are ambitious for the club then spell it out as a statement of intent. And invest in the playing squad accordingly.

He is aspiring to as good as Fulham, Brentford, Bournemouth? That's progress in his eyes?

Next season, I would hope every one of those teams are below us and we are knocking at the door of the Top 6. That's aspiration. Moyes loves to understate expectations, always has; talk up the opposition, downplay our chances so that, if we get there or thereabouts, he can point to it as an achievement.

Sorry, Steve, it's not a case of "dammed if you do" — if he had just kept it to "competing for Europe next season", I would have been happy… but no, he throws in those three clubs to make it clear that's a success in his eyes.

Exactly, we need to know what they aspire to.

If you have to make comparisons (and I don't think he does) then, why not talk of the progress Aston Villa have made under new owners?

Nottingham Forest?

Too close... too soon?

But look where they were 12 months ago.

We'll find out tomorrow how close we are to chasing those tails.

So Danny/Christine et al are you saying that you expect us to be 4th or 5th next season? Because that is what it will take to be above those teams he mentioned. That is very unlikely given the size of the squad overhaul and current uncertainty around the size of the summer budget.

Honestly, who'd be an Everton manager? The man has us 6th in the form table and some are moaning about his attitude or dissecting his words. There are many who still hold the "knife to a gunfight" quote against him from 10 years ago, as if in over 500 hundred press conferences and interviews as Everton manager he wasn't ever going to get some things wrong!

I respect all of your views on this (as expressed on the thread of Christine's article) and I weirdly feel I am in a minority on this. I can't remember who it was on here who was always going on about "happy clappers" but if my biggest crime is to defend a manager who I believe did a very steady job first time round and is currently doing an excellent job this time round then I'll take it.

This is an unbelievably tough league and things can change very quickly, therefore I believe in giving credit where it's due and not holding too much of a grudge about things that happened many years ago. For me he is the right man for now, its up to him to see if he can earn a longer stay.

I promise you if it all starts to go south I will be happy to say its time for him to step aside if I think the time is right or he isn't up to it. I believe he is the man to steady the ship, bring stability and impose his high standards on the club again. I am happy to be wrong, I will take it gracefully but obviously I don't want that because that means our beautiful club has stopped moving forwards again after so many years of going backwards.

I see no reason we can't compete. As Michael mentions, Nottingham Forest. Nearly sent back down to the Championship last season, favourites going into this one.

There's always a chance if the mentality is right.

I don't think anyone wants that, Steve. We want to see improvement whoever is running the first team.

Good he's talking about Europe, but his mention of those clubs reminds me of him saying Manchester United (then reigning champions) must aspire to be Manchester City, or words to that effect. That didn't endear him to the red side of Manchester, whether it was taken out of context or not.

He's setting a low bar in my opinion. If I was him, I just wouldn't mention other clubs, we can do that on here. Focus on his ambitions for Everton.

I can understand the other side to the argument because a lot of people feel that, by nature, Moyes always plays the cautious card by bringing in clubs like Bournemouth, rather than clubs like Aston Villa, which can come across as downplaying expectations.

It's all just lip service to me because actions will always speak louder than words in my book. That's why I think the most significant post on this thread is the one written by the other Steve @4.

Everton Football Club are now in a position that means they can only really move forward on the football pitch with some real investment in the playing squad, so hopefully a big summer awaits.

Moyes has done a brilliant job for himself over the years, earning really fabulous wages with a mediocre ability.

Listen to serial winner Neville Southall and it may help explain why people like me have certain expectations. Some may call them deluded, but I don't care… and yes, I am impatient to get back there quickly.

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Unwelcome by the previous board. No wonder. He has standards for Everton.

This is due to the so-called FFP machinery. And even though it's changing (again) to preference the favoured clubs, it won't do us any good for at least a season or maybe longer. And as ticket prices are low in comparison to most clubs, that too will be a disadvantage.

To evidence our poor chances of increasing squad numbers in the transfer market, we have reverted back to our old ways. Or done a Ratcliffe.

Feyenoord want €30M for David Hanko, so we bid €25M for the centre-back / left-back.

Several things disturb me by this:-

1) We need a fucking striker!!!

2) Why are we looking at that position when others are more pressing?

3) Branthwaite?

4) We know Mykolenko is weak but at least we have a left-back

5) Left winger. Right winger. Both positions need decent players. In central midfield, we need strength.

6) What the fuck are we doing under-bidding, like Man Utd did to us. How far did that get them?

If they want £30M for a player with numerous interests from other clubs, why do we make arseholes of ourselves? Back to crappy Kenwright days you havent gotten over, eh, Mr Moyes???

We don't yet know how much we will or won't invest in the squad this summer, so there are no facts out there.

Especially not those in shouty capital letters.

As for FACTS, you're expressing an OPINION based upon RUMOUR.

Rob, it is not negotiation when Feyenoord state the price of the player, openly. That they won't listen to offers for less than £30M then we offer £25M.

This we did in the dark ages long ago and it got us nowhere, embarrassing the club.

Check out Toffee TV if you don't believe Dutch and German press.

We have fewer players in our squad than when the DoF began.

When did the DoF begin? You mean Steve Walsh at Everton in June 2016? Or who and when???

I'll give a fact: we have 25 players in our first-team squad.

Here's another fact: we have had 25 players in our first team squad since I don't know when.

Probably long before June 2016.

So what exactly is this 'fact' that is so meaningful to you?

24/25
20 fully owned players
Including 3 GKs
Excluding 4 loan players
Total 24

Source of statistics = ToffeeWeb

Some will argue that the corruption that has just robbed Atletico Madrid has been prevalent for years in Europe's premier competition.

But we were an absolute disgrace against Rapid Bukarest and did become a laughing stock, Eric.

So it will be baby steps for me, a move away from being relegation candidates but anything above 10th place will be a surprise and a bonus.

Around that time, I liked watching the travelling Everton supporters at Nurnberg. I couldn't be there but I believe we left an impression on the locals.

Link

Hopefully more to come. And soon.

Better squads than we have now, David. We don't know what the squad will look like after the summer.

Moyes got us to 4th once in 11 seasons. What is your point?

Mine would be that any manager under no pressure at all, should have been building a team.

He didn't do that; he was absent from the watchtower.

Care to explain your thinking behind that?

Finishing 8th next season is clear progress.

I am not putting my blue-tinted specs on or thinking - somewhat delusionally in my book - that we are (pick n' mix) a big club, a big club with a magnificent new stadium, a big club with a big history, Everton etc., and therefore ought to finish - where? - 4th/6th.

8th next season will be good progress and yes it would make me satisfied (though anywhere higher would be just brilliant). I would then expect Moyes to leave having done what he was asked to do (I think) which was to steady the ship.

That would be the moment to think seriously about a higher level with a flashy, zippy, charismatic, successful younger fella.

We have little idea about the window to come. Our current squad is not great and would need to be significantly better to finish 8th or higher next season.

There are not many of them that I think would be of the necessary quality to take us to 8th and higher: Pickford, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, O'Brien, Gueye, Garner, Armstrong (maybe), Ndiaye, Alcaraz.

Others, in my opinion, like Armstrong, Iroegbunam or Chermiti, still have plenty to prove ('there's a player in there' doesn't cut it) and might well be worth keeping on. Others will be gone.

Yes, I did leave out McNeil.

Message to Michael K: why is Charly not listed in the first team squad?

8th would be progress, but it doesn't mean we can't be brave and aim higher.

I will accept being called deluded. It's just how I think.

If Moyes achieves what he was brought into to do, stability, then it's job done. If he does better and doesn't choke at the first sight of over-achieving, then I'll be happy.

I don't recall many football managers being more than cautiously optimistic about their teams chances for the forthcoming season.

If he had said the teams in 6th, 7th and 8th (average 7th), then that's setting the aspiration to a higher level.

Finishing 8th would certainly be improvement but in defining an aspiration to belong in a group that is mid table at best, is resetting expectations and objectives with a much lower bar.

And Christine I've noticed you keep using the term "aspiration". Moyes not so much.

He didn't use that word.

Point it out if I m mistaken.

But I honestly think that in our present circumstances - new ownership, several seasons of hovering in and around the drop, a financial situation that we are told is better but nothing has been revealed, and a score of pariahs and mediocrities that can be shipped out at long last - 8th-ish would be genuine and realistic progress of the sort that Moyes might be expected to do but no more.

I will expect a push to the top 6 after a nice goodbye and thanks to Moyes and and the appointment of a youngish gaffer who we the fans would be thrilled to see appointed. But 15th-ish to 8th-ish in one year is not bad at all. And if we make the exact same progress in the season after that the Danny in me says that we will finish 1st two years from now.

COYB

OPINION: Moyes needs to avoid managing expectations, it's not a good look

I jest but progress takes vision, planning and forward momentum. We have started to move forwards, BMD takes us further next season. We don’t yet even have all the staff to galvanise said vision but we are getting there.

Bottom up culture change is required and yes I believe that includes mindset of where we should be aiming as a club, challenging again for honours. However there are steps required to get there. Structure is required to take those steps.

8th would be an excellent next step but as someone else sensibly posted above, we will struggle to get the squad to that in one window. We are so thin on the ground.

“Short-term, yes. Long-term, no. Because I still think if we want to sign the calibre of players we want to sign they’re going to come for someone who plays the style of football they like.

“We need someone with the personality to drive and drive and play the style of football that people want to come because we’re going to have to fill that ground and we have to be in Europe.

“It won’t be sustainable to finish 15th in that [new] stadium; it just won’t. And it will be disgraceful if we don’t finish [higher].”

Moyes has already made it clear that he sees us as being bigger than those clubs and needing to have more ambition than them.

He might not have lasted 5 minutes with the previous leadership (used in the loosest of terms), but he might have a chance with this lot.

Change and expectation is to be embraced, not cautiously feared.

1. If we finish 8th, that's a significant improvement on were we are. No question.

2. If we aim to qualify for a European spot, then spot on, I have no problem.

But... Moyes aspired us to specifically three clubs lying currently 8th, 10th and 12th. And commenting that we should be aiming to be in that group of teams as our objective next season.

Irrespective of who those teams are, generally speaking they don't automatically qualify for Europe. In my opinion, that may well be reality if he has little or minimal funds but, as yet, we do not know what funds he will have or know our owner's intent or expectations.

But setting a low bar achievement, which I consider mid-table (10th) is, is setting low expectations for next season If he had just left it at an aspiration to qualify for Europe next season, I would have been happy. But he qualified it with teams we should be above – not with.

You may or may not agree but, until we get some indication from our leader, on transfer kitty and their expectations, only then can we assess our chances.

It might have been the case in his day but, other than a few exceptions, I don't believe players are attracted by managers anymore.

Harry Kane didn't seem too troubled by the arrival of relegated Burnley's Vincent Kompany last summer.

I dare say Ivan Toney wasn't too familiar with the work of manager Matthias Jaissle before joining Al-Ahli - but was certainly happy enough with his £400,000 per week wage.

Mohammad Kudus would have been perfectly happy to join and play for Dyche if we could have found the money for the transfer fee (when Thelwell was trying to sign him the year before he left Ajax for West Ham).

First and foremost, players are attracted by the salaries on offer. There's then an attraction towards the Rich 8 with recent Champions League pedigree – because those are the clubs that pretty much win everything (and can afford the highest wages).

In a few cases, we've seen young players attracted by "the club" because of a track record in player development – like Sancho and Gittens at Dortmund – and Madueke at PSV. But in those cases again, it's nothing to do with the manager. Managers come and go in any case.

Nottingham Forest, even if they didn't have a deduction last season, would still have finished 17th. They changed the manager, spent funds, are now sitting 3rd and very likely will get qualification to the Champions League.

So, I ask the question: If it obviously can be done, why isn't Moyes using them as a benchmark?

Reality bites. We are not in a healthy position squad-wise. Nor do we have the quality of players in the squad required to lift us much higher. Rules and regulations prevent other clubs doing what is being suggested by many for Everton, ie Newcastle.

You want better players; they cost. We have a very low number of players we 'own' and can possibly raise capital from. Realistically, selling several players to buy 1 'decent one' would deplete this threadbare squad to uncompetitive.

Selling Branthwaite… well. Those who can afford our asking price are very near to breaching PSR domestically. If we did manage to get the full money, as opposed to some money plus a shopping list of ludicrous ifs, and maybes triggering further funds, then clubs will up the price for whoever we approach.

So, what we need is to boost the member of players we own. Loan players have been pretty disappointing and ineffective. Buying players of quality and in numbers for Everton has been elusive for generations. Those responsible have failed.

Buying players who show promise but are untested and generally unfit, has also failed. Leaving us short in every position and a vastly depleted squad.

Only one or two out of all the recent acquisitions are capable of providing the quality of expectations for Everton and the new stadium and pushing us up the Premier League. Moyes has his work cut out for sure.

The whole sorry mess hasn't gone away. It's been taken on by TFG who will set achievable expectations.

We are heading in the right direction after years of freefall. We have an exciting summer of squad change ahead and moving into the most incredible new stadium next season, one to make all around us envious.

Can we not just sit with all that for a moment and be happy with that? Personally I feel so grateful just to be rid of Moshiri and to be taking some steps towards being a professionally run outfit.

I made my view very clear on the thread for Christine's article, Moyes is currently doing a fine job, can we just be with that for a moment? Just for a bit?

Steve, no one is denying he has dug us out of a hole, but the "6th best form" won't continue to wash. In fact, and I haven't done the maths, but with 5 points in the last 18, I would doubt that is the case even now.

The only form that matters is what the table says at the end of the season and 38 games.

As for ambition, sorry to go on, but if the aspiration is to be like Fulham, then that's a red card from me.

What more can the man do other than have us in good form? Let's just enjoy that, we are punching above our weight (by that, I mean with the squad at his disposal right now, not in terms of where we should be as a club).

The plan is for us to get better.

In the summer and next season, the hard work starts to get us competing again and not be subject to the emotional turmoil of staring the prospect of relegation in the mirror.

We all want the same outcome, there is just a difference in how quick we go and who is the person to take us there.

Don't use the term "punching above our weight". We've been punching below it for far too long.

I've made my views on the manager's longevity clear. But I would like nothing more than to see him succeed and win us a trophy in the time he is here.

When or if Moyes is playing awful footy and we are losing against Burnley and Coventry next season, then we can whinge… but at the moment, we can be optimistic about the future and happy with how things look.

He made his ambitions clear enough for me, its nit picking criticising him for mentioning clubs that are doing better than us at this moment.
We can argue all day long about managers and disagree, but we will not improve enough to climb the league table until we get better quality players. The players are trying their heart out which is great but we lack that bit of magic the best teams can produce.

This thread, and Christine's has demonstrated that no matter what is said, I and those of similar opinions won't be changed and you Shane and others won't have yours altered.

To be clear, if I haven't been:

1. I was disappointed when we reappointed him.

2. He got off to a great start and we have to be grateful for that.

3. For me, he is not the long-term solution.

4. We are starting to creep back to ways of old, both performances and language.

5. I would like nothing more than to see him get us a trophy before we both part ways and move on.

6. There is nothing wrong with expectation.

Live up to our Moto for the first time in decades.

We can exhaust ourselves on this without altering peoples' stance. More importantly, the sun is shining and we have a match today, which I hope the manager sets us up to win for the first time in 6 games.

With Christine on this one Moyes doesn't like taking risks.

25th April 1982 the divisive figure of Margaret Thatcher came to the steps of 10, Downing Street to announce to the press that the Royal Marines had re-captured South Georgia from Argentina. It was the first step on the mission to free the Falkland Islands from their depressing future under Argentinian Military rule.

The press was not interested in the victory but what was next. Thatcher famously retorted - Just rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces.

Just get a sense that the divisive figure (at least on ToffeeWeb) of David Moyes has freed us from the spectre of relegation and needs to say - just rejoice at that news and congratulate our players.

Sorry Phil, I can't rejoice on avoiding relegation yet again when it looked a distinct possibility, even though I tried my best to not admit it outwardly.

Relief at the news maybe, but not celebration.

The players, and the manager, do deserve praise and they get mine. Moyes for taking the shackles off even though there have been signs of them being put back on lately to a degree.

I get he wasn't everyone's first choice. I seem to be one of his biggest advocates on here at the moment and hell, he wasn't even my first choice. Still, credit where it's due and long may it continue. COYB.

Moyes got some stick ahead of the Liverpool game when he talked about the gulf between the two teams never having been bigger.

Imagine the reaction... when we are about to face Forest if he had come out and said something about aspiring to be like Forest.

Moyes and his players did the talking, where it matters, on the pitch.

Davey Moyes references (not aspires) Nott's Forest.

Timing...

I lived in Seville for a year and attended a lot of Sevilla's games. It is a shame to see them sink like this but entirely down to mismanagement off the pitch.

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However we feel right now, it is a million times better than we felt 6 months ago!

But we need a stronger statement of intent than we aspire towards the like of Brighton, Bournemouth and Forest.

I posted on a another thread the quote from John Moores after he took over Everton and sacked Johnny Carey who had finished 5th in the table - "Fifth is no good to us!". Now that is a statement about ambition standards changing.

Aiming to get back to the Magnificent 7th is weak frankly. Imagine buying a business and committing to make it above average.

Time to state your ambitions TFG and stop using David Moyes as your spokesperson. It is not fair on him, so speak up as we are all listening.

Our new owners are good at many things. Making public statements isn't one of them.

West Ham tried Lopetegui and Potter and still are well away from what Moyes achieved.

Man U have not fared a great deal better with their wonder managers Ten Hag and Amorim.

Spurs are doing really well with Postecoglui aren't they.

Even if ToffeeWeb can't give Moyes some kudos the football world is impressed.

Moyes has proved he is the right man for right now. Cant we be happy with that until he isn't the right man and stop all the carping and speculating.

Who hasn't given him kudos for doing a good job and surprising a few, myself included, so far?

Most acknowledge that and give him the respect for that. But don't view him as our long-term future.

To say there isn't going to be another manager out there who can build on whatever platform Moyes and the owners provide is short-sighted if we want to push on.

Moyes is doing exactly what was asked of him and next season that will continue, I think. We will end up 8th/10th, and then we will part company with warm thanks - unlike last time - as he has steadied the ship as asked. We will then appoint someone who will thrill you, me, and the rest of us.

Mind you PH, in retrospect, wouldn't it have been great if we could have appointed Moyes in January 2023 and not the hard-boiled egg.

The 18 month thing (i.e. next season), is probably coming from the likes of me. I see two conditions were he won't see his contract out:

1. There is no meaningful progress despite the squad being strengthened. I genuinely hope not and that he puts us in a much better place to compete.

2. Someone better becomes available and the owners take the opportunity before someone else does.

Like all of us, I don't have a crystal ball. Thankfully, this car crash of a season will be over. We picked ourselves up and came out fighting so that the ending is nowhere near as close as the previous two.

I will be relieved to see the back of it, but not rejoicing that we once again tried to dance with relegation. We could finish 13th, we could finish 17th. No cause for celebration for me.

My worry about Moyes coming back was that he would soon get to work managing expectations. Reading the comments on this thread (and his own) its clear the process has started.

This club has lay on the sick bed for so long, many have forgotten how great a healthy Everton can be. We have a golden opportunity to make a full recovery. A new ground. New ownership and blank canvas for an ambitious young manager.

I just don't know how we can ever make a full recovery when so many are delirious about the fact that we have made a minor one.
Calm yourselves down when you talk about this "Staggering improvement" FFS.. We are very likely to finish in exactly the same place as we would have finished last season if we hadnt have suffered the savage the points deduction

Personally I would hope for a slightly more progressive appointment somewhere down the line (an Iraola type) but stability and improvement are much sought after commodities for football club owners so Moyes will likely stay so long as he provides both.

Would people have been happier if he had used Man United and Spurs as examples?

And Danny, yes, 38 games is the yardstick for the club but you can’t lump the results of the previous manager on Moyes when judging his performance. It’s a moot point and hard to prove but the points we’ll end up with after 38 games will be significantly more than the points we’d have had if he hadn’t come in.

Even his biggest critics should agree that?

Having said all that I’d STILL love to see Iraola come in to lead us on.

Ps

PF - St Pancreas - SP or deliberate? I always thought it was called that until recently..

UTFT

Paul I believe the stories of the 18 month contract are incorrect.

He was hired on a two and a half year contract.

He's undoubtedly improved performances and the way we play (at times) but it just goes to show how the use of incomplete stats can skew a view.

If you look at the league table since Moyes arrived we sit in sixth place. Look a little further though and there are a number of teams "below" that who've played a game or two less, which, if they won would have us around 10th or 11th. Still an improvement of course.

Some much needed equilibrium.

Under Dyche, it was a chore just to go to the game, the football was that rotten. I'm looking forward to Moyes getting an extended run.

Cheers mate, I am well thanks, hope you are too.

Here's another example though of absolute shite on the internet, by someone who blurts it on a regular basis.

Everton ‘to offer Abdoulaye Doucouré new contract’ as details mooted

There is some dislike of Moyes for reasons people themselves choose.

But most of the discussion I'm reading and I myself repeatedly post isn't dislike, just doubts over his ability to get us where we want to be and not being the long-term answer. As Colin says, many have concerns of the days of lowering expectation.

Mark, I think we'll end up on over 40 points. He's done a lot right with the tools available, but I'll judge him properly over the course of next season, which he deserves.

Yes Rob, the decision to relieve Dyche of his duties should have been taken before the New Year in my opinion.

Agree 100% mate.

It might make you think about the new owners though!

There is a discernable pattern of play, fullbacks are allowed to cross the half way line rather than tucking in narrow, Ndiaye is encouraged to come inside from the wing, Doucoure is getting closer to Beto, midfielders can make runs into the box.

This is not revolutionary but still has made watching the games less tortuous. The approach explains why Saturday was the first clean sheet since the start of February, but the results have also improved.

He cannot be the long-term option to take the club to the level though.

TFG binned Dyche... he didn't resign.

It is our final ever season at Goodison, all the way up until late December, going to watch Everton felt like I was carrying out Community service, where I had to attend, the football was dreadful, bring both full backs in and defend narrow, no crossing the halfway line, a centre forward isolated 30 yards from any other team mate, hoof the ball up to Dom, watch him try and hold off 3 defenders until the midfield tried to push up and join him.

I sat there thinking is this the best we can offer in our final season at Goodison.

When the new Manager came in, at first there was the expected new Manager bounce that would quickly fade and the players as Dyche pointed out would then go back to their set ways, even the mini run we had I was thankful of at least witnessing some performances at Goodison.

However since the new Manager came in, I have not seen a single team dominate and play us off the park, Even crossing over the park, we created the best chances and only went down to a goal, other games we have created chances, missed golden one on one chances but not once have we been played off the park, last ditch defending with no chances on the counterattack.

Whatever lies ahead for the future, the right additions in the summer window can push us to the next level.

To get so many points and performances is already looking good going forward, a pacy winger and a 20 goal a season centre forward can make all the difference, as with a midfielder who can bring the ball forward.

Can we push on next season, I cannot see any reason why not, is the Manager here just until we go for that Hollywood manager, that is down to the owners and what progress we have made, I would give Moyes his full term, unless it goes drastically wrong, I cannot see that happening myself, if we get it right in the summer a European spot is certainly there for the taking, maybe even a tilt at the title, aim high, the league this season has been piss poor, if Liverpool can, then why not Everton in the coming seasons.

The big boys have a huge advantage player wise and spending, their stock is already there, but Villa and Forest have shown it can be done, this time instead of doing a viv Nicholson and spending for the sake of it on bang average players, make a small number of additions that will make a huge difference, quality over quantity, if we get it right in the summer, we could be in for a very good season.

I think TFG were minded to get rid of Dyche after he told them he couldn't get any more from from the players but held off for a few days until they felt they could bring Moyes on board.

Dyche got a severance payment. You don't get one of those if you simply walk away.

All water under the bridge now.

“Earlier this week, manager Sean Dyche informed the club’s hierarchy that he had taken the team as far as he could. Dyche did not go as far as to formally resign — that would have had financial ramifications with his £5million-a-year ($6.2m) deal due to expire at the end of the season.

But wearied by a turbulent couple of years that saw points deductions, relegation battles and near-constant speculation over the future of the club, the 53-year-old made clear his view that his methods were no longer having the same impact.

The message was that he felt his players, consciously or otherwise, had stopped responding to his methods and that he was no longer the man to take the club on.

The last few years at Goodison have ground everyone down, including him.

TFG had arrived at Everton with the idea that Dyche, increasingly under pressure from fans over his seeming inability to avert a fourth successive relegation fight and one-dimensional tactics, would likely see out his contract — and therefore the season — before making a change.

He had been backed, publicly and in private meetings on TFG’s arrival. Key decision-makers in Houston, where the company has its headquarters, had seen him dig the club out of holes before and initially believed he could do so again.

But Dyche’s comments forced TFG to act. Even on the new ownership’s side, there is an acceptance that the eventual timing of his departure, hours before Thursday’s FA Cup game against Peterborough United of England’s third tier, was far from ideal. It came, though, after protracted talks, held over a couple of days, over his compensation package.”

The reason you make so many of your self confessed ridiculous statements is that you simply don't engage your brain before you open your mouth.
Relegation is not just about the team you are interested in. It's about the other teams who are trying to avoid it. Its looking increasingly likely that the three clubs occupying the relegation slots will struggle to reach 27/28 points. NOBODY else was ever in danger... Do the maths.

Moyes has done a decent job so far, but he most definitely did NOT save us from relegation. Ipswich Southampton and Leicester had done that long before he was even considered for the job

Would it ever have occurred to Dyche to play O'Brien at right back? I don't think so. Would Dyche have sent us out to actually win at Forest? No way. Moyes did both.

But Dave A is also right -- the new owners get no credit for sacking Dyche, because he sat on his own grenade.

They do get credit for making the right hire -- one that many of us didn't want to see.

The players responded well when Moyes initially came back in. They looked like the weight and burden had been lifted.

Don't get me wrong, but it hasn't been the plain sailing that some will claim. I noted the U21s nearly throwing away a 5 - 0 lead in the last minutes yesterday against Tottenham U21s. Well after a first hour against Tottenham when I didn't recognise the same players from the first half of the season, we nearly blew a 3 - 0 lead at Goodison.

Brighton away was a 1 - 0 victory, but in the 2nd half, we reverted to type and played a classic Moyes KITAN1. It seemed to go on forever. We got lucky at Palace, before doing much better in the 2nd half. A decent and unlucky performance against Liverpool, when their goal should have been offside and Beto's arguably given. Fine margins. And then a nondescript performance against Arsenal, but we got a deserved point. Forest is probably the most complete 90 minute plus added performance since Moyes returned.

Yes it's been much better, but it's not always been plain sailing. The most important thing was that we got ourselves into a comfortable position quickly and were never going down.

On the Dyche departure, he was a beaten man and I take no satisfaction in that despite my frustration with his management of the team. One thing alluded to above, was the difference in negotiations on the terms of his severance package. Seems these owners will play hard ball. Let's hope they are like that in the transfer market.

Earlier in the season Ipswich looked like they could stay up. They have a partisan home crowd and a centre forward who knew how to score.
Everton had a terrible 2024, bar an end of season run in that secured 3 wins in a week, were picking up injuries and didn't know how to score.

The change had to happen and results had to improve. I don't go away, but those lads and lasses must have been worried when it was 1 attempt on target all game at most.

"Dyche has lost the will and the players were not responding"

Yes they lost a couple of games in the month leading up to his departure (one against Bournemouth who also beat Moyes's Everton) but draws against Chelsea, Arsenal and City (both away) would suggest neither the players nor the manager had lost the will.

Dyche had not lost the players. Even Moyes praised the attitude he had instilled into them, but you are right when you say he had lost the fan base (that can be just as fatal for any manager) A situation which was getting worse with every passing presser. The fans had understood his plight and may have put up with the awful football, but they were never going to put up with him arrogantly thumbing his nose at them every time his methods were legitimately questioned

The man was shot and we couldnt see where the next goal was coming from let alone a win.

We were sat on 19 points without a win in prospect.

I'm not saying Moyes is the messiah but he deserves better than the rotten tomatoes being aimed at him and anyone that doesn't think Moyes is a big improvement on Dyche is either blind or stupid or both.

Jay, you make your point well, but no need to end with sly digs at people with differing opinions.

For the record I did not want Moyes back but having seen what he has achieved with an injury ravaged squad that couldnt buy a goal and going through the most difficult fixture list of the season deserves praise and recognition imo not accusations of having no ambition.

It's what he does next that matters.

On the Dyche thing, I'm 50-50 with Colin. The players looked different. But as I keep saying, I gave up blaming managers years ago. Dyche had to go. For his sake, for the players' sake and for our sake.

The ambition has to come from the club, top down. That set's the expectation to match the supporters.

I can only speak for myself and repeat myself so many times before Michael yellow cards me. I don't see Moyes as the future, probably beyond next season (my view) and I don't like talk of playing down expectation. I rather talk us up and fail trying.

No dislike or disrespect of Moyes from me, just questioning whether he is the person to take us where I want us to be. I don't think he is. That is nothing to do with this season.

In my experience, it got bad with supporter frustration towards the end of Dyche, but not the worse I've seen.

Howard Kendall Mark 1 in the 1983 Everton winter of discontent was bad. Yes, Kendall and the Kendall must go leaflets.

But nothing like the toxicity towards Benitez, particularly at those away matches at Brentford and Norwich. Pure venom.

I track all the results of all teams against their same fixtures as last season.
Leicester (Luton 18th) - Got to 29 points by 4th December and been downhill since then (RVN appointed 29th Nov 🤔)
Ipswich (Burnley 19th) - Got to 31 points by 4th Jan and now back to 27 points
Southampton (Sheff Utd 20th) - Got to 18 points when they beat us.

Our lowest was 39, when we lost to Villa. We are now on 46.
We were never going to be relegated but was anyone happy with Dyche's style? 15 goals in 19 games v 19 goals in 13 games.

Oh and if 27 would be enough keep us up - we were safe when Tarkowski's rocket hit the back of the net. Sweeeeeet!

1-0 down after 15 minutes, and you knew it was game over. A couple did say that the players were better than that, but I go to say it was hard to see. Before 19 January we had 3 league wins all season: Wolves, Ipswich & Palace.

Anyone with an ounce of sense Could tell you Ipswich. Southampton and Leicester were always going down Its difficult not to laugh when people say otherwise even though the current table arms them with the benefit of Hindsight.. but your right. Dyche ended up friendless. Nobody could stomach his ootball any longer.

I think the claim that Moyes saved us from relegation reeks of people trying to justify pressing the panic button and calling or him.

Moyes took Everton to Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford. The Emirates and Anfield over forty times. Like thousands of others. I was there for all of those games. We didnt win one of them. Not one...Those fans spent thousands. Often to see their beloved team humiliated. Thats why they were so deliriously happy when we finally won at OT when Moyes was in the other dug out. The traveling blue didnt just think Moyes had shown no ambition as Everton manager. They Knew it. Unlike people coming on here spouting sycophantic gibberish. They were not "blind" and they were most definitely not "stupid"

Lets wait and see how he does with decent backing before suggesting he has no ambition and I'm still waiting for the list of manages that would do better than Moyes and would come to us.

Selective memory ??? if I have a selective memory then so do thousands of others who suffered Years of Your hero's anal nerve letting him and everyone associated with this club, down. It`s easy to slag of other fans of on the internet, but its much harder to accept when you have spent all your spare time and dosh following your team around the country.

I didnt select which games we didnt win at the grounds of the top four. I included them all. Every single one of them stretching over 11 years. We didnt win any !

After witnessing countless humiliations in cup competitions at the hands of teams like Wigan I was there with 30 thousand other Evertonians when he finally got us to Wembley. Guess what ?...The arse fell out of him again.

You come on here talking about the "blind" and the "stupid" who compared Dyche to Moyes. Yet the only person I see making the comparison is you. Your reason is clear. You saw the opportunity to compare apples to oranges and try to make your hero look better than he actually is.

Moyes is getting plenty of credit for the results he has achieved since he came in. Not just on every thread on this site, but on every other site and throughout Evertonia That clearly isn't enough for you. All you can see is non existent rotten tomatoes Well here's something for you to really moan about.

Moyes walked into a cozy contract with wealthy new owners and three very accommodating teams making it impossible or him to be relegated. He didnt have to deal with a boardroom hiding behind the couch..Fan protests, Backroom upheaval. He didnt have to run the club single handedly. He wasnt left to deal with the continued nightmare of points deductions after his chairman had abandoned ship. He didnt inherit a team which was already in the relegation zone and were the bookies favorites to go down.

Beor you dive in with foolish comparisons. Ask yourself this; Would Davey Moyes's notoriously iffy anal nerve have coped with the pressure's Dyche worked under ? Or would it just have given way like it did at Sunderland ?